We Need Catechesis! Quit Baptizing People Before They Are Ready! - Stephen Russell

One of the things that I am utterly convinced of is how hard it is to change a person from paganism to Christianity, from, from secular materialism—that's paganism too—to real Christianity. And somebody that's been raised in our setting who's been raised rather laxly about what you believe, "Well, as long as you love Jesus, that's all that matters." Once again, which Jesus?

So I think today is one of those other times we really need a thorough catechesis.

So, Mr. Russell, uh, this last summer we were in Europe filming the documentary series on, uh, called Anabaptist Origins. It's about, you know, how the Anabaptist movement started and, and so forth, and people can go check that out. But while we were there, we were talking about, "Oh, we should, you know, interview you on the podcast again, and what would be some topics?" And you were like, "Oh, I really want to talk about catechesis." And I have to say, at the time especially, I was like, "I, I don't really know exactly what that is or, like, what all that entails." So I immediately said yes, because that sounds really interesting. So I, I really don't know much about this.

So first of all, before we go too deep, start with the basics. What even is it, and define that word for us. Yes. Well, catechesis is the same thing as, um, our instruction class. Oh. It's essentially the same thing. It's taking people who have turned to Jesus but making sure that they understand what this is all about.

And I think it's a really important and necessary thing, whereas a lot of our people think it's not. "Well, let's just do what the Bible says and the Old and the New Testament says." They believed and they were baptized, 3,000 that day. My, my, uh, over and over again in church history, the, the church would, uh, baptize people immediately, but then over time they would discover problems. And they, they recognize—and I think this is completely within the, the, um, authority of the church—they would say, "We've got a problem, and we're going to have catechism for the, you know, we're going to teach these new believers what it really means." That happened in the early church.

It happened, uh, after the Reformation, uh, and it, uh, is a need for today. Question, though. What does the word catechesis actually mean? You also just used the word catechism. Yeah. Is that right? So what, what is that word? You know, I have to look it up. I don't know for sure. Okay. Okay. Well, we can But it's, it's instruction. Okay. It means instruction, but I don't know if that's so Okay. So this isn't some big fancy, you know, complicated thing. It's basically this teaching, this instruction that a person needs to have to join. Okay. There's a reason, so that we know that your mindset isn't a mixture of the old way of thinking and the new way, because that's, that's the problem that keeps showing up over and over again.

So definitely want to look at church history, then. So, like, how, how has the church implemented this? So first of all, beginning in the early church, what, where did it start, and how would they how did they do it? And then trace it through history. Like, bring us up to, you know, say, Reformation, like the early Anabaptists. Kind of walk us through the different eras of history and what exactly did they do. Yeah. When the church, uh, got formed at Pentecost, all the people that converted were Jews.

Um, and then they started reaching out. And so the next kind of people that, other than Jews, that they, uh, reached and brought into the church were, um, there were the Jews, of course, who heard the message and agreed to it. There were proselytes like Nicholas, one of the first deacons. It says he was proselyte, which means he was born a Gentile, but he converted, and he was circumcised, and he practiced the law. So he ate the, the right foods, etc.

But there's also Cornelius, who is called a God-fearer. And that is a Gentile who goes to synagogue. He hears the Old Testament read. He knows the truth of Yahweh, but he doesn't want to be circumcised or follow the, um, food laws.

Those are the three kinds of people at first that came into the church. And obviously, there's a limited number of those three kinds of people, but the thing that unites them is they went to synagogue, they heard the, um, scripture read, and they understood, to varying degrees, who Yahweh is and what he expected of his people.

As the people, the Jewish people who were going to convert, as the I would imagine an awful lot of proselytes converted, and I believe probably most, um, uh, God-fearers did, because in Judaism, they were they were allowed to come to the synagogue, but they were still looked at a little bit differently than the proselyte. But everyone was accepted in the church. There's no, uh, Greek or Scythian. There's no slave or free. Anyone can join, and you be you become a person, a member of the body of Christ.

So I'm guessing. And there's no they didn't give details. They, they, you know, in the in those days. But as I look back and see this, these are things that I'm convinced happened when the new members were mostly pagans coming in. That's going to cause a problem, because it is hard to change the way you think, your worldview. And so hearing the Gospel sounds beautiful, but if I already think the physical world is bad and most pagans did, then I'm going to misunderstand salvation and resurrection as a spiritual thing.

My soul, my spirit is going to be saved, but definitely slough off this old body, and there's not going to be a physical resurrection. Well, that is the truth. That is the, the truth in the Old Testament that the Jews knew. And when they talked about resurrection, if a Jew said resurrection, he meant what is in the Old Testament. There's two beautiful passages in Isaiah where he said that we're going to come out of the dust of the earth and that we're going to have this wonderful feast. I love those passages. I think they're in chapters 25 and 26. And he also, later on in Isaiah, talks about, um, the glory on, uh, that will be on us, and we're going to rise.

Well, anyway. And then Ezekiel talks about our bones coming together and tendons and muscle coming on and skin. The Jew took that literally. So if a Jew talked Really? Well, except for the Sadducees. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But the Ooh, interesting. But the Pharisees took it literally. And that so when a Jew said resurrection, if he was a Sadducee, he made fun of it. This woman had seven brothers as her husband as husband. Oh, that's what's going on. Whose wife will she be? That's the Sadducees making fun. And But they knew. Yeah, yeah. This is not spiritually, she'll be raised from the dead, and so it doesn't matter. It's physically, she's raised from the dead. And they are too.

Who's going to be her husband? Yeah. And Jesus says, "You don't understand." Okay. When a when a Jew said resurrection, it was clear. But there was another thing about resurrection. They, as they read the Old Testament, they understood it to be pointing to the general resurrection. So when Jesus rose, that's part of the reason for the confusion. They didn't understand the Old Testament as saying there's the Messiah is going to come and die, and he's going to be the first fruits. Okay. They didn't get that. And that's why they were so discouraged, and they scattered, and they didn't get it even after he rose from the dead. It took a little bit to get it through their heads.

So but anyway, the key point, resurrection for a Jew is physical. But a pagan hearing it didn't always get that and didn't want to get it. And so for him, it was, "My spirit, it's going to be freed from this prison, um, freed from this tomb." They felt like the body is a tomb for, uh, for our spirit.

That's where Gnosticism arose. And so at first, you don't know what's going on. You don't know who's getting it and who isn't. But after a while, it becomes clear that there's a significant number of Gentile Christians who don't get it, and they're they're causing a problem because there's something new in the air, Gnosticism. And this was already when the New Testament was being written. In Colossians, Paul is bringing up some kind of a problem where Greek philosophy is causing a problem, and these people were saying Greek philosophy says the physical is bad, and we agree with that. So this is all about the spirit. Um, in 1 John and 2 John, there are it says that there are people who deny that Jesus came in the flesh.

Guess who that is. It's Gnostics. Gnostics said, "No, he's really God," or at least he's a high divine being, and he couldn't come in the flesh. He just came looking like he's in the flesh so he could teach us. For the Gnostics, salvation is getting it right here, understanding correctly that you are a spirit, and you can your spirit should leave the body. You should hate the physical and and desire to go up into the physical.

That's not the Gospel message. And the church started to become aware of it, and thankfully, somebody like Irenaeus understood the problem, and he laid it out very carefully. He laid out what the Gnostics were saying, why it's wrong, what the scriptures say, and what the church tradition said, because the scriptures and church tradition or the kerygma, they all agree. And it's that the resurrection that humans are truly both spiritual and physical. And so the fullness of being a human comes from the last day of judgment, the resurrection, when we're fully united. Our spiritual and our physical are fully united again. So what was happening was you had pagans loving salvation but misunderstanding it because they haven't had a renewal of their mind.

And they're and they're teaching this. And, you know, once again, it's hard to change. And there are some aspects this world, this fallen world, can be hard. And so even some Jewish Christians probably got, uh, drawn to this because you have to re-envision a world that's still physical but different than our world. And that could be hard. And so I think, uh, mostly, I think pagans that came into the church became Gnostics, but some Jews probably did too. So this this problem, the church had the authority, and they knew it, to address it. We don't know the exact details because when they talk about catechesis, all of a sudden, they're just talking about it. It's there.

Oh. But but but we do know one of the earliest books is the Didache, and it is structured in such a way that it talks about the two ways that humans go, the right way and the wrong way. And it talks about, uh, it gives teaching about what the right way is about. It talks about baptism. Uh, first of all, um, teaching someone, then baptism. It sounds like it's probably a catechism, if if only for the minister to know how to talk to these people. Um, but already, we don't know exactly, but somewhere between 90 and 100 is when the Didache was probably written. So already, I think they were well, it's in it's in Colossians, and it's in 1 and 2 John.

So even before we get out of the first century, there's a there's a problem arising. And in the second century, in the 100s, when any particular church father writes about what they do with the pagans coming in, it's catechesis. We, um, instruct them, and here's what how we instruct them. So that's very early. It's very early. Yeah. Um, and one of the things they did, they had they they had an outline, which in was a creed. In each different location, they had their own creed, but they were all Trinitarian, and they were all, uh, recognized they all recognized the full deity and the full, um, humanity of Christ. And so there was like an outline that they followed.

And it wasn't just teaching them here. Um, we know from Cyprian, who was a bishop of Carthage in, uh, he died, I think, in 250. We know from him that, you know, they would teach the how to how to think, what change your mind. But they also would do things like, you know, we Christians have to help the poor. And there was no welfare system. So we he would he would go out one Sunday after instruction, and he would take the, um, class with him, and he would show them how they should help the poor that really are needy. And then he would say, "Next Sunday, you guys have to bring some money, and we'll go do this again."

So it was both practical and theological, how to live and how to think. Almost it this is probably oversimplifying, but the word that came to mind immediately was like some kind of mentorship, almost. Yes. Like, "You come with me. Let me show you." Kind of like what well, I mean, Jesus does this with the disciples. "Come with me. I'll show you this. I'll Yes. We'll live together. I'll show you these things. Walk with me." Thank you for yeah. Thank you for using that word because I can tell you a little bit about how it tended to happen. Okay. Um, okay. So what I've said so far is the church had the authority to deal with this problem, and they did.

We don't have a record of them talking to each other and saying, "Hey, that's a good idea." But somehow, whenever it comes up in their writings, there is a catechumenate, which is the group of new believers who are being taught. Interesting. Okay. And, and, um, here's how it here's how it tended to happen.

Um, they there were some people who went out like Paul and like a modern-day revivalist who tried to meet, uh, people and preach to them, but an awful lot of it, and probably the majority, was rubbing shoulders with Christians and wondering, "What's why is this guy so weird?" So most of it was just from everyday interactions. And you go up to your neighbor, and you say, "Why do you do that?" And the reason you ask is because it's weird. Why would anyone give money away to the poor? That's stupid, et cetera. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. And why do you treat me okay? Because I don't treat you okay.

So normally, what happened is it wasn't so much at least as far as we can tell. It wasn't probably some of this where I would talk to you, you're the pagan, and I would talk to you and say, "Um, you really ought to get to know about Jesus, and I'm willing to talk to you about it, but it was more you saw how weird I am." And so finally, you come to me, and you say, in nicer words than this, "Why are you so weird?" And I will I will tell you as much as I can. But let's face it, a significant number of Christians were illiterate, and all they knew is what they heard preached, which is a lot.

But, you know, it's one thing to read books and think about them and put it in your head and, uh, and then think about how to approach your neighbor. Well, they did do that. They did hear the Gospel and the Old Testament and the New Testament read in church and then explained. That was clearly a part of the early church's service. But at some point, the average Christian felt like, "This is as far as I can go." But while he was talking and interacting with his neighbor, if he felt that you're really serious, then he would go to the ministry, and he would say, "I think this guy is serious." And he'd bring him to them, and they would figure out, "Is he really interested?"

And if he was, they would enroll him. Now, sometimes they felt sure that this person really gets it, but they're still going to teach him. Uh, sometimes it was that was part of the job, is to make sure that he understands, and if he isn't converted, that he converts. So they were both trying to make sure that the unconverted who is being drawn is more than just being drawn, and the one who is converted, that his uh, that there's a renewal of his mind, as it talks about in the beginning of Romans 12. If you don't have that, you're going to get Gnosticism or something else. That's not quite the truth.

And that's why they did it, because they were experiencing, um, all kinds of problems in the church with, let's say, half-converted people. If you know what I mean, they still thought in many ways like a pagan. So, um, after I felt like I couldn't do anymore, I'd take you to the ministry, and they would decide to enroll you. And it it there was not a set number of years, but in the in the writings that they get that they have given us, sometimes it took three years to make sure you're no longer a think a pagan thinker. Okay. Because it's easy to want that salvation. It's easy to want my soul to go up to God and and slough off this physical body.

It's a cruddy thing. It gets sick, and it's going to get old and die. I don't want it. Okay. That's a huge thing to overcome. So you would be enrolled, and it and it might take three years, or it might not quite take three years. The, um, ministry both instructed you theologically, and they also instructed you practically, as I mentioned, you know, help you see how you're going to live. Um, you're going to if you have a an image in your house, you're going to get rid of it, you know, and, um, and you're going to help the poor, and if you can.

So we it could take it could take several years. And the local creed was pretty much the outline they followed, but they went went beyond that. But they definitely wanted you to know who this God is. He's one, and yet somehow also three. He's Father. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. And and the Son is fully human and fully divine. So they wanted to get those things across clearly. They wanted you to start living right. And when you felt ready and the ministers thought you're probably ready, the man who first brought you was called your patron. And they and the ministers would talk to the patron. "You live next to this guy.

Is he ready?" "Yes. I I see him live right." Okay. And so then he would be required to go in front of the church and recite the creed and say, "I really believe this." Now, think about it. The first part of the creed, "I believe in God. The uh, I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and his invisible."

That is going as clearly as you can against Gnosticism, against the pagan worldview that the physical is wrong. It's bad. So you had to get up front, and and the ministers made it clear that you got to believe this. So when everybody when he said, "Yeah, I believe it," the ministers were convinced, and your patron, your neighbor, was convinced, then you would get up in front of the church, and you would confess the faith, and you would be baptized, and for the first time, you would take communion.

Before this, the early church expelled not not in a bad sense, but they would let people come into the church service who were not Christians but were interested. But when it came time for communion, everyone had to leave who was not baptized.

So this is the first time that you're in a service and hear more than just the the Word of God read and explained. At that point, you would be told to leave. But now you get to stay, and you get to take communion for the first time, and you're part of the body for the first time.

Okay. So the point of this was that at first, it seemed to be working just to baptize people because most of the people that came directly, uh, to the apostles asking for, uh, baptism were were Jewish or had been influenced deeply by Judaism. Yeah. But as you bring in all of the Jews who are not going to resist, all of the, um, uh, proselytes who are not going to resist, and probably all of the God-fearers because, "Hey, now we're equal." Mm-hmm. All there's all that's left is pagans. I'm not saying there were no pagans that came in. I'm just saying that those are the first ones that are going to come in. And after a certain point in the first century, most of the people that are coming in are pagans who have been converted, but have they been converted completely?

So the church dealt with that. Now, the reason it disappeared it did disappear. After Constantine, the church started to work hand in glove with the government. And every government under the sun and every religion except for Christianity every government wants religion to undergird it, and every religion wants to be undergirding a, um, community and especially the government. Okay. That is just universal. And so when communism came along, okay, there's no religion, but there's a philosophy. And and so if you if you leave religion so I think it's still in it's still the way that that things work. Everybody, if you're a government, you want to be undergirded either by religion or by philosophy.

And the religions and philosophies also like it when they have that hand-in-glove experience. Christianity is the only religion I know of that didn't start out that way. So I think that I think inherently, Christianity is not like that. That's one reason I'm an Anabaptist.

But as Constantine and other emperors started getting close to the church and the church leaders look, Constantine defeated the last pagan Roman emperor who was killing Christians just the day before he was defeated. Mm-hmm. How would you feel if you lived under that last pagan emperor who was killing people, and one day, you hear that that Constantine, who loves God, defeated him, and now we're free? Mm-hmm. Eusebius, who was probably the first or at least the first church historian that we still have a record of his writings, said, "The people who the day before were walking around with their head down because I don't want you to ask me, are you one of those Christians?

Because I might get killed." The Christians who the day before were walking around with their heads down and trying to avoid contact with pagans Constantine defeated that emperor who was persecuting them. The persecution ended immediately. And it says these people were smiling and dancing and so happy. Well, I would be happy. Think about it. You and I know way more history. They had no history. God used Constantine. I think he did, but then I think they misunderstood what this meant over the long haul, and they started turning very positively towards the government. It took a while to to change the to change everyone's thinking towards the government, but it it started with Constantine.

And I would say that Augustine. Unfortunately, uh, there may have been some, uh, continued dis-ease about the government and the Christians working close together. But after, um, Augustine, it was, uh, hardly it was hardly anything left. But okay. So now then, if you if the government wants to be undergirded by religion, it wants everybody to be a Christian. How do you make sure everyone's a Christian? You don't preach the Gospel and wait to see if they say yes or no. Yeah. What do you do? Right. You baptize infants. Yeah. So over time, it took a while, but over time, it shifted from most people being baptized as adults to most to everyone eventually being baptized as a child if they were born in a Christian home.

If they were born in a Jewish home or a pagan home, it wasn't required. But if you were born in a Christian home, eventually, it became the law that that you'd be baptized as a young infant. And then catechesis would just be irrelevant at that point. It's irrelevant. Yeah. Everybody's a Christian. Okay. So that that probably holds true for the next I mean, hundreds and hundreds of years until you get to, what, Reformation era. The Reformation. Right. Yes. Well, bring us to the Reformation era then. So where does that start changing? And then how did the early Anabaptists do catechesis as well? Well, you know, everybody in Europe except the Jews um, by that point, most of the there had been some Muslims, but most of them that still lived in Christian kingdoms, like in Spain.

I'm not sure of the exact date that the Muslims were expelled from Spain, but it was either before the Reformation or during the Reformation. So during the Reformation, only Christians and Jews lived in Christian kingdoms in Europe. And so everybody but the Jews were baptized as children. And everybody knew the story somewhat. Everybody went to church. Everybody saw the paintings on the church walls. The priest would tell them the importance of this painting and this painting and this statue. So everyone had some kind of a sense of what Christianity is. They didn't have the sense that you have to choose it. They just had the sense that God is doing was doing these things.

The Protestants, uh, realized that there needed to be some catechesis. Uh, and, uh, I I don't think at first they did it for everyone, but, um, if you were kind of stubborn, then they would they would require you to go to classes to learn what the real faith is. Mm-hmm. Over time, though, all of them developed a catechism, and all of them required children to go through, um, their instruction class or their catechism or, uh, catechesis, in other words, you know, they had to be instructed. And that was uniform with Catholics and Protestants. And church historians say that from somewhere in the middle of the Reformation on until you get to the Enlightenment, Europe was more Christianized than it ever had been.

Europeans understood their faith, whether their heart was in it or not. They understood their faith better, whether they were Protestant or Catholic, because they were taught it. They were and and everybody believed it's true. You know what I mean? You didn't have very many atheists or and no or or agnostics. For, um, the the, um, Anabaptists developed uh, at first, they also baptized people immediately. But remember, everyone sort of knew the story. Right. And what the what the Anabaptists did was they said, "The one thing you don't get" and this is what I heard when I was uh, when I heard a when I converted was, "You have to choose to follow Jesus." Mm-hmm. So an infant baptism isn't a baptism, and you've got to choose to follow Jesus, and then we will baptize you.

So we aren't Anabaptists. We are the real Baptists. We are the ones who are doing it the first time, and the and the original doesn't count. So at first, they didn't uh, didn't now, they did have a Hoopmeyer came up with a, um, a short kind of catechism just to ask the new believer, "Do you believe these things?" And it was developed off of the Apostles' Creed.

Already, everybody believed in those things, so it wasn't a big deal. But over time, the, um, Anabaptists also realized that some people didn't really get it. And so eventually, I would say by, um I haven't looked this up, but I know that by 1700, there were catechisms out there for the Anabaptists. So they wanted to be sure that that the young people and those that came from outside weren't just saying, "Well, of course, I believe this. This is the way I was raised," and but that they really as well as you can do with a catechism, that they at least understood what's being called for, and, um, hopefully, they they also believed it. And the first Anabaptists that came to America, uh, still catechized their young people.

I don't know for sure. I haven't looked this up, but I think that as revivalism came, that probably is part of what, um, made the need for catechism seem less. But I'm not 100% sure about that, but I I think it probably is. But in each of those cases, it's a realization that just because somebody comes because of the beauty of the Gospel doesn't mean they really get it. Mm-hmm. And and so in each case, it's a it's a recognition. We have to help that person see that the mindset he naturally has is not the same as what God wants us to have. We have to have a renewed mind that transforms our living. And, uh, that's what the Gnostics did not have.

And and then later on, it it would it came to be seen over and over and over again. Um, so those that would be how it came to be for the early Christians, for the, um, Reformation, for the early Anabaptists. And I would maintain we live in a world that used to think I'm thinking of the West. I'm thinking of America. We used to think of ourselves as Christian.

I'm not saying we were ever a Christian nation, but we used to think of ourselves that way. And so we tended to accept a person's statement that I'm a Christian without a whole lot of, uh, digging. Okay. What does that mean? To see if you're really a Gnostic or you're just a cultural Christian or what?

Um, well, nowadays, there's still a lot of people like that, but there's also been a huge shift away from Christianity and towards a negative attitude about Christianity. So I think today is one of those other times we really need a thorough catechesis, both for our own people. We can be a little lax. You know, we just think, "Oh, yeah, they were raised right, and they know about Jesus, and that's all that matters."

Uh, but I mentioned it with you in another podcast. There's more than one Jesus. There's more than one Gospel. There's more than one Spirit. This is in both Galatians, chapter 1, and 2 Corinthians, chapter 11. And so, yeah, which Jesus? Do you really understand what it means to follow Jesus, and who is he? I I think we really need it. We we we Anabaptists need it, I think. But if we bring people in, we need to make it clear to them what you're what you're giving yourself to.

That's what the early church did. That's why they did what they did. That's what happened after the Reformation. They wanted these people to really understand and know. Um, if we don't do that now, we're going to have another Gnostic problem in the and as we bring people in, sometimes from our own families, but even more so from outside. Um, Americans, um, love their individuality, and so they don't naturally want to be told what they have to believe.

And that yet, that's part of catechesis, that this is actually the faith. Instead, we've gotten to the place where we have what we like what we sometimes like to call, uh, cafeteria Christianity. So I choose this and this and this, but I don't like broccoli and onions. And so I don't that part of Christianity, I'm not going to so that is not that's not finding the truth. Maybe it's finding part of the truth, but it's not finding the truth. And, uh, I I really think the modern world, the Western world, whether you think you're a Christian or and whether you're from our group or whether you're you're somebody that's gotten alienated from Christianity, but now you're starting to be to wonder about this, I think there needs to be a thorough teaching effort to help the people.

I don't mean just here, but also practical things to help people realize what it means to be a Christian part of the body of Christ. So I'm curious, current day, if you were to describe how we do catechesis now in our churches. And when I say that, I mean, you know, just kind of a typical Mennonite church, say, here in North America, right? Yeah. What would you say? Like, how actually do we do this? What would be an example of that? Well, when somebody says in most of our churches, when some there are a few, I think, that baptize immediately and don't do any interesting. There are. There are some that do educate because they've been they all look at the Bible, and it it doesn't say they were taught beforehand.

But I would think that the majority of our conservative Anabaptists still have, um, uh, instruction class, I think. Mm-hmm. Now, that's a good start. And I think the things that are used um, I know that in my own setting, uh, the book we used had the Apostles' Creed. Now, I don't know exactly if they used it because I got into the class halfway through, and that was at the beginning of the book. So I don't know what they did with it, but it was there. And then, um, we looked at, uh, the Dortrecht Confession of Faith, which for, um, most Beechy churches, that is what we would say is our confession of faith. Okay. And so we looked, and the really important things are basically there.

Now, I have to admit, I prefer Schleidheim over, uh, Dortrecht. Okay. And so if I were the person making decisions, I would say, "Well, we'll do the Dortrecht, but we're going to do Schleidheim first." Schleidheim is great. Yeah. Schleidheim is great. But but regardless, um, both of those confessions of faith uh, well, Schleidheim focuses on where we're different than the Catholics and the Protestants.

Dortrecht includes some things like we're Trinity. We're Trinitarians. We believe in the Trinity, which um, which, uh, Schleidheim doesn't say, but it's clear that they believed it. But that was just it. It wasn't a there was no conflict there. So they dealt with the things where there was conflict, like who do you baptize? Do we participate in government? Do we participate in the military? Things like that. Yeah. Those are all included in Dortrecht, but Dortrecht then also says, "We we believe God created everything, uh, from nothing. Therefore, it's good. We believe that, uh, God is Trinity," et cetera. So they also talked about things where they agreed with the Catholics and the Protestants. So that's good.

I I I like the clarity, I think, of um, and and in some places, the length of the Schleidheim. Like, Schleidheim, when it's talking about nonresistance and nonparticipation in government, it's really clear. But but currently, like, would those be used in in our instruction classes and things? You're saying Dortrecht would be interesting. Dortrecht, at least some places. But so so I'm curious on this, though, because you mentioned in the early church um, you said you you gave the number three years, that they that they were in this process or up to three years, right? I don't know of any Mennonite program really, you know, where they'd have catechesis for three years before they would baptize someone.

We should. Okay. Now, once again, if you have well, okay. You have to explain I lost everybody at that moment. Please tell me more because I've heard all over the map. But the one I've heard a lot is, "Well, let's just baptize them immediately, and we'll we'll figure out the teaching, you know, as as they mature," right, in Christ. Or or the other one's like, "We'll just keep doing what we're doing." But you're saying we should do three years or something or something. It should be more extensive. Okay. Um, and the and the age should be higher, maybe, than what some churches allowed. Oh, boy. Tell me more. Well, wait. Um, uh, so I'm not saying it should be three years.

Okay. The early church didn't say that. They said it could be up to three years. It depends on how you feel, the person who's a candidate for baptism, how the ministers feel, and how the patron feels. Do do these people all say, "Yeah, he is he's really changed. He really gets it"? Oh, it's like a like, you need to be measuring this person more extensively to make sure that they are actually ready. Yes. And it doesn't have to take three years. It could, but it doesn't have to. Why why should we take it that seriously? Huh? Because it's so important.

Look look, one of the things that I am utterly convinced of is how hard it is to change a person from paganism to Christianity, from from secular materialism that's paganism, too to real Christianity. And somebody that's been raised in our setting who's been raised rather laxly about what you believe well, as long as you love Jesus, that's all that matters. Once again, which Jesus? You know, how what does that mean for you? So I think we need to take this seriously, and I'll tell you why from my own experience.

I have had several people tell me who joined church as teenagers, somewhere in the teenage years, say, "Oh, but I didn't understand what this really meant. In other words, I didn't realize I was putting myself under under the discipline of the church."

Okay. But you mentioned a couple of things. We should make it more extensive. You also suggested, um, the age might be a factor there, too. Like, maybe that relates to some of the things. It relates to what I just said. Tell me more on that one. Well, on actually, that the the the guys that have talked to me like this, they would say their excuse for saying, "I don't really want to do this anymore, this particular thing," is, "I didn't understand it then." So let's say it might it may or may not be this, but let's say that the church says, "I should dress a certain way." Okay. Let's just for some people, it would be that.

They would say, "I didn't I wasn't old enough. I didn't get it." Okay. Well, let's make sure you're old enough so that you really get it. Uh, so, um, and if you're young but you really get it see, that's another thing. I'm not going to say a fast age necessarily, but if you really get it, the ministers are convinced, your family is convinced, you're convinced, that's one thing. And if you come from a different tradition, if the person that, uh, you first got to know that would be your patron if that person feels really good about what he sees and the ministers do, and you feel ready, that's good. Um, however, I also think I think the age matters because I think this is more important than marriage, and we usually wouldn't let a 13-year-old get married.

Now, we do let upper teens get married. And so if the upper teen really understood, I'd be okay with that. I want to say another thing back with what I was talking about earlier when the in the early church, when you came even if they were convinced you're a Christian, they would still put you through the the program. But they would tell you, "You're you're a Christian, and you're okay."

You know, they were they were so they but they that they wanted to be sure that there was a full understanding on your part. So it's not like they said, "You're not a Christian until you're baptized." They would say that some of these people are clearly believers, and others are struggling towards belief. Um, and so I'm not I'm not saying that a maybe a 13-year-old or even a 10-year-old really does give his life to the Lord. However, often, those children are simply reacting to their realization that, "I stole a cookie," or that, "I did this or that," not that, "I really am a sinner." You know what I'm saying? And so if you really if they're too young to get that, then I they're they're too young to get baptized yet.

But we can believe that they've had an experience, and so that's good. But we want it to be deeper where they start where they're open to being instructed about, "All of us are sinners, and only through Jesus can we come to God," and things like that. Mm-hmm. So not baptizing someone immediately is not saying they're not a believer necessarily. Yeah. But it is saying that, um, there have been problems that were big when we didn't make sure that a person fully understood. And like I said, in the earliest church, most of those people were synagogue-goers. They were people that heard the scriptures, and they were mostly ready. Now, Simon Magus is an example of someone who wasn't ready.

But that wasn't a big as I understand the the New Testament, it doesn't sound like that was happening a lot until we get to Paul's letter to the Colossians and, um, John's letter two letters, his first two letters. And then it's clear that something strange is happening where people are either not believing Jesus is divine or believing he's only divine.

You know, you've got both of those things. And, um, I I think we're kind of in the same situation again. We've lost we've in in many cases well, the the culture, the American culture, is very confused about Christianity. So some people think they're Christians but couldn't tell you why.

Other people are just neutral. But they do think, "Oh, yeah, Jesus is good." And then others have become actively against Christianity. And we got to be working with all these people, and we need to know how to talk to them. And so our own catechesis will help us there. But then even even getting somebody, "Yeah, I really do think I believe this," you you got to also help them think through all those little places where they haven't thought about it, and they really aren't thinking in a Christian way.

Oh, and you mentioned some people say, "Well, let's baptize them and then teach them." I will tell you something. A friend of mine up in Canada knew that knew what I thought, or he had heard about it. "So what do you think about? Why do you think this?" Well, so I was telling him, and I told him that if you I didn't know what his experience was, but I told he was a minister. And I said, "If you baptize in today's world, if you baptize someone and say, 'We'll keep on teaching you,' if they don't like what you're teaching, they're out of here.

We are too individualistic. I don't care if you're this particular guy was a Muslim, and he said, 'I believe, and I want to be baptized now,' and they did it. And after a while, he didn't like everything. He's out of here."

So our society is so individualistic that, um, that isn't going to work. So you're saying we should we should be careful that we're not too hasty on the baptism thing, as in this is a much bigger deal, and we need to tread carefully and thoroughly before we do that step. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah. But I don't give a time frame a definite time frame. Yeah. Yeah. In what ways should we be taking that baptismal step more seriously? Do you want to say more on that? Well, like I said, um, I think it's even more serious than marriage. And we think marriage is terribly important. Okay. And when you commit, there's no getting out.

Wow. Right? Yeah. In marriage, it should be the same way in Christianity. So you want most of our churches, I think, nowadays do premarital counseling. They're trying to make sure that you really get it. That's what I'm talking about. Catechesis is to make sure you really get it. And when you are in, you're stuck.

And not and I don't mean that in a negative way. But, you know, we say you can't sometimes there is separation, but we still say you can't you shouldn't really get divorced, and you can't remarry. This is at least as important as that. And I I think your relationship with Jesus is even more important. And and so we want just like did you have premarital counseling? Okay. Right. Wasn't that the desire of the your families and your and your church leaders that you you go into this with some sensible understanding? Okay. Mm-hmm. And let's face it, it's probably the most wonderful experience and the hardest.