I Walked On the Moon. Then I Met Christ - Charlie Duke, Apollo 16

Between the years 1969 and 1972, 12 men walked on the surface of the Moon as the crowning achievement of NASA's Apollo program. Hundreds of thousands of people worked for more than a decade to accomplish this seeming impossibility. On April 16, 1972, Apollo 16 launched with astronauts John Young, Ken Mattingly, and Charlie Duke on board. And five days later, on April 21st, John Young and Charlie Duke landed on the surface of the Moon, the fifth time humanity had done so. It is an honor to have Charlie Duke on this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives as one of only 12 people in history to walk on the Moon. But the story doesn't end there. Charlie Duke ultimately came to Christ after his experience, and this is the story we want to tell in today's podcast.

Enjoy this special episode as we journey with Charlie Duke on one of the greatest explorations ever lived.

So I think the first question I would have for you is, 52 years ago, or almost 53 years ago, you walked on the Moon, which again, very few people have had the privilege of doing that. As you set foot onto the lunar surface for the very first time, what's going through your mind? It was, uh, we're finally here. Uh, we were late landing, and, uh, they made us do a rest period before we got outside. So you can imagine the eight hours of rest period, how, uh, little sleep we got because we were so excited about getting outside. But when I got outside, I was just in awe of the wonder and the beauty and the, uh, the, the thought that, you know, nobody's ever stepped here before in all of, all of history.

And, uh, it was, uh, uh, a feeling of, of emotional high and, uh, a, let's see, how would I describe it? Just, uh, you know, all wonder, uh, and all of those, uh, uh, statements, beauty overcome with the beauty of, not overcome, but, uh, the beauty of the Moon. It, uh, was had a, a costeral, uh, enhancement to it, uh, from the fact that nobody had ever been there before. No atmosphere. So you could see very clearly to the horizons and, uh, look up in the sky, and it was, uh, a jet black and, uh, no stars available because the sun's shining all the time on you. And at least on Apollo. Mm-hmm. So I was, I was reading in your book and, and, uh, you're writing there what your first words on the surface of the Moon are.

And if I'm quoting correctly, it was something like, "Fantastic, that's the first foot on the lunar surface," or something to that effect. Do you remember those first words and, and, and what was going through your mind? Well, that's pretty close. I'll remember it pretty closely as, as, as I stepped off. It's a fantastic, that's the first footprint that's been here forever. And, uh, what a place, what a view, uh, what an experience. Those kind of thoughts were going through my mind. And, uh, and, uh, so it was a, a thrill. John, uh, wanted to get to work. He came out first. So we, we had to get the rover off, uh, off a little module.

And so he wanted to get to work. So you don't have very much time to appreciate, uh, just where you are and what you are. It just comes all the time. You know, you stop and you, you have a moment and you think about it and you said, "Man, I'm on the Moon."

So it's almost an overwhelming thought, but it's believable. Uh, and, uh, you know, it, uh, so we, we were having so much fun. We didn't want to get, we didn't want to come back. Uh, so, uh, yeah. But, uh, Houston said, "Get in, guys. It's time to come home." So. Mm-hmm. And, and you mentioned John there. That would have been John Young, uh, correct? That's correct. Yeah. That's correct. He was the commander. We trained together as a backup on Apollo 13, if we were on 16, and then we were back up together on Apollo 17 too. Wow. So we had, wow, three, three over three years of training together. So, uh, it was, uh, he was a great guy, great leader, and, uh, uh, not a, uh, not an authoritarian leader, uh, or, uh, I'm doing this, it's my flight, and I'm, you don't touch this.

And, you know, they just, the only thing we had that, uh, we had to, um, uh, that we divided our, our skills was in, uh, in the rover. He drove and I navigated. So you never got to drive the rover then on the Moon? No, uh, never did. Okay. That's kind of a bummer. Uh, well, it was not really. Uh, I had the best job because I could look around, you know, he had to stare right in front of the, right in front of the car, or he, you come over a ridge and there'd be a crater or a boulder there. And, uh, so he had to navigate around it really quickly. So, uh, and I was looking around and, uh, underway, you don't have the TV, it's flopping around and so that you don't get a picture.

So I was describing, uh, what we were seeing and every 50 meters I'd take a picture of, uh, of the surrounding terrain. And so it was a travel guide, really, in your, as a travel guide, you were talking to your travelers who were 250,000 miles away on Earth and trying to keep them abreast of what you were seeing.

So, wow, that's, that, that, even today, like these years later, there has to be an element of this that feels almost surreal. Like it's hard to, it's, it's such an incredible thing. Are there moments where it's like, wow, that's almost hard to believe that you did it? Does that make sense? I'm not even sure how to ask that question because it's just so unusual, you know? No, not really. I've, it's, uh, it's always been a believable, real experience to me. And, uh, it was never, uh, I never, never thought that we really do this. And, uh, uh, we really landed on the Moon in spite of what you see on the internet these days about we faked it all.

Uh, six times we landed on the Moon. And, uh, I told, uh, I told somebody on NBC 15 years or so ago about when the, the, you know, the, the, the, uh, fake, uh, the, the people, we didn't land on the Moon, it was a big fake. I said, well, we faked it. Why did we fake it nine times? You know, we, we, we went to the Moon nine times, landed six. And if you're going to fake something, do it once and shut up. And, uh, but we had 400,000 people working on it. And it's just amazing that they've all been able to keep a secret for the last 50 years if we faked it.

And the evidence is overwhelming that we went and landed. And you can see, uh, there's a, uh, a satellite orbiting the Moon now called the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter. And it's mapping the Moon is what its chore is. And so as they come over the Apollo landing sites, they take pictures with a camera with about six feet resolution.

And on our flight, you can see the car, you can see the descent stage, you can see the experiments package. And, uh, and I can't see individual footprints, but you can see where we walked. When you walk over it, it, the Moon is bright gray, uh, due to the radiation. But when you walk over it, it turns dark gray and it flips over, uh, I guess the, the grains of the Moon. And so it gets a dark gray and you can see all of the tracks and stuff like that. So evidence is overwhelming. That must spark some, some really pleasant memories when you look at that, uh, those photos from, uh, Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter. You know, that's where you lived.

You lived on the Moon for a couple of days. You know, uh, that's got to feel, that's got to feel pretty amazing to look at that. Yeah, it is. It's, uh, you know, it's, man, look at this, you know, first time I saw it. It, uh, you can see clearly this car and the dark areas where we drove and, and, and, and scuffed up the surface and the descent stage and, and the experiments package. It looks like little white dots down there, but, uh, that's the experiments we left behind.

So, so I'd like to back up a little and ask you just in general about your career at NASA. It's like, when did you join NASA and what all did you do there? I'm sure you did a lot more than just, you know, obviously you flew to the Moon, but there were other things that you did as well. Talk me through a bit of what that experience was like.

I was selected, uh, and in the fifth group of astronauts, there were 19 of us and we started, uh, training in April. We reported, let me say, we reported to NASA in April of 1966. And the first couple of months, uh, we just, uh, had, uh, uh, classes on, uh, what NASA's all about and, uh, and, and, and, uh, how it operates and who does this and who does that. And then we started in geology. Uh, none of us were, uh, professional geologists. And, uh, so if you're going to go to the Moon, y'all don't know what kind of rocks to pick up. So, uh, we started an extensive, uh, training in geology. And that continued, uh, uh, we started at about three or four months after we got there.

And that continued once a month. We'd have a field trip somewhere. And, uh, usually, uh, we went to Hawaii four or five times with, uh, the volcanoes over there and, uh, South, Southwestern United States, the Northeastern United, Northwestern United States. And, and, uh, some people went, uh, even, uh, our, our flight didn't have his training over there, but some people even went to Europe and, uh, trained in, in geology. So we were well trained in geo as geologists when we got there. I love the field trips. It was, it got you out of the office and, uh, we were going three or four days and, um, simulating, uh, simulating the Moon flight. You know, how to backpack, you had a camera and, and the geologists were, had, had designed a traverse for you.

And these, these guys were experts on the area you were exploring. The first time we'd ever seen it, but they were, you know, got their PhDs in this area. So they knew every rock and every type. So they designed, they designed the, um, the traverses across the area so that we could, uh, identify, begin to identify these different kinds of rocks. And, uh, so it was really good training and out of the office.

Well, and then I was, I got put on a support crew for, um, well, the first thing I really did was significant was after the fire, Apollo 1 caught fire and killed, um, Grissom, White and Chaffee, um, uh, in January '67. And after that, we, we shut down for about 18 months. And, uh, so, uh, we were, uh, Stu Roos and I, uh, were on a, a, a, a team, uh, that was, how do you get off the launch pad? Once we fixed the spacecraft, how do you get off the launch pad? And, uh, so we'd have, we had, uh, two ways off the launch pad and we figured out you could, we had a slide wire where you could hook onto the slide wire and slide down from off the top of the pad about, uh, I think it was a half mile, quarter mile, half a mile away.

And the cable just took you down and you rammed into a net that stopped you. Or you could jump into the elevator and there was a free fall elevator that went down into the center of the pad. And it was about way below, way below pad level. And there was a big room down there, a blast room, they call it. And you'd run into, you'd run into that. And, uh, if the rocket exploded on top of you, you could survive down there for 30 days in this little, in this little room called a, I don't remember the name of it now, but it was a, it was on, it was on, um, uh, uh, uh, springs.

So, uh, if the vehicle blew up and it started shaking, the thing would, the floor would just shake. And, uh, uh, you had 30 days of supply food down there, oxygen and drinking water and, uh, facilities to go to the bathroom. And it was a, it was, you could be self-contained down there trapped for 30 days till they, and they figured they could dig you out, dig you out in 30 days. So, uh. That's, that's pretty wild. Yeah. Well, so, so then, um, if I remember right, you did some work on the lunar module then with a, was that Apollo 10? I think it was. Oh, that's right. I was the, uh, uh, support crew for Apollo 10.

The first time we took the lunar module to the Moon. And, uh, I had worked, uh, prior to that, had worked on the propulsion systems on the lunar module, uh, and, uh, which was the descent engine and the ascent engine. And, uh, we'd had some trouble with the ascent engine. So I was on a committee, uh, to select a new, uh, a new contractor, I guess he'd say. And, uh, then we got that done. And then I got put on a support crew for Apollo 10, which led to a Capcom, uh, with in mission control. And, uh, our flight, which was, uh, Gene Krantz and, uh, uh, was the flight director, uh, very famous flight director.

And, uh, Mm - hmm so, uh, we, uh, the crew got into the lunar module, undocked, and we simulated a descent, uh, uh, uh, in their lunar module. It couldn't land because of the overweight. I don't know a lot of different reasons, but it could, it could light the engine and you could start down and you got down within a few miles and then you aborted and came back up again. And, uh, and so it, it did the simulate, it did the act, the actual profiles, except for the landing. And so it was a really good training. And things worked good. We proved up the systems. And, uh, so, um, we, uh, we were ready to go two months later when, uh, Apollo 11 got ready to fly.

And since I was Capcom doing that part of the mission, uh, on Apollo 10, uh, Armstrong, Neil Armstrong asked me to be Capcom again on Apollo 11. Uh, I normally, and normally you didn't, it didn't work that way. You, uh, you changed Capcoms on every flight, but, uh, he said, you, hey, you've done it and I, why don't you come on over and do it for us and, uh, and stay, put the, keep the team together, if you will, uh, in mission control. So I did. And that was a big honor and also very exciting and, uh, stressful, uh, experience trying to get them onto the Moon. Uh, you know, we had, uh, uh, but first we had, uh, what did we have?

Oh, uh, communication problems. And we had, uh, computer overloads. And then we had, uh, uh, uh, trajectory problems and, uh, which resulted in Armstrong having to fly level across the Moon for three or four miles. And that used up all our reserve fuel. So now we're minimum fuel and before we landed. And, uh, and that got very testy.

Tension and mission control was through the roof. So this is interesting to me because I didn't realize that, that you were part of, uh, part of the team with Apollo 11. Um, but I've, I've seen the clips, you know, listened to the audio and things of mission control when Apollo 11 successfully lands on the Moon. And you can, you can see how tense that was, right? I mean, they're, they're running low on fuel. Is this going to actually work? It's the first time we're trying to land on the Moon. And, um, when Armstrong gets it down, I, uh, I'm going to say, hopefully I got the quotes right, but Armstrong says something like, "Tranquility base here, the Eagle has landed."

And then I never knew this, but this was you who were talking to him and you say this. And these are kind of infamous words. It says, uh, "Roger Tranquility. We copy you on the ground. You got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again. Thanks a lot."

Tranquility base here. The Eagle has landed. Roger, Tranquility. We copy you on the ground. You got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again. Thanks a lot. And I never knew that was you. And so it's kind of neat to, to, wow, like you were right there. Like you were right part of that, part of that piece of history, really. Well, that tension in mission control was, as I said, uh, through the roof and, uh, and when he touched down and it, and, uh, it was just a big foul. It's like punching a big balloon, you know, and all the airscapes instantly. And, uh, so, uh, we were very, very excited, of course.

I, I got to say, I was probably tenser, more tense during that landing than I was when I actually landed on the Moon. Yeah. Wow. So, wow. You're in, you're in the lunar module and you get all, you get all the cues, you know, you got the instruments, you got out the window, you got, uh, you see it all. Whereas in mission control, you're just looking at a little TV screen, about 12 by 12, and you can only look at it so much and you, you, and so it was, uh, a lot of tension.

What a, what a privilege though, that you, that you got to be the, the person communicating with Neil Armstrong when they, when they went on the Moon. Quite an honor. Yeah. Big honor. It was, it was. Yeah. That's, that's really neat. Well, um, so after Apollo 11, and this is another piece I, I didn't put together until I was doing research for this interview, but you were on the backup crew for Apollo 13. And, uh, the whole when they had to pull Ken Mattingly off that crew and, uh, replace him with the backup is because you'd been exposed to the measles, if I remember right. I had, I actually had the measles. Uh, and yeah, and then I exposed, I exposed all of the crew to the measles and they tested everybody and everybody had had the measles except for Mattingly.

So it's a big debate between flight, flight directorate and the medical guys, whether we're going to pull him off or let him go. And what the medical guys won. And so they had about maybe a week to get ready with a backup crew. The guy, and, uh, and the training was, uh, so, so in step, both back crew, backup crew and prime crew that, uh, you could take one guy out and stick it in and from the backup crew and stick him in. And, and, uh, uh, Jim Lovell had the final say, uh, after they got four, five days of training. He's, uh, uh, uh, the flight director, not flight director, but the, uh, Deke Slayton, who was, uh, one of the original astronauts, was the flight, uh, he was head of the flight, uh, flight directorate and a flight crew directorate.

And so he said, he said, if you're ready to go, we're ready to go. And, uh, and Lovell said, we're ready to go. So, wow. And, uh, everything went well until 55 hours when the oxygen tank blew up. And, uh, Mm - hmm so, uh, I had basically recovered from the measles. And, um, John Young called me about 10 o'clock Houston time when this accident happened and, um, said they have a big problem and, uh, we got to go in and help out. So we went, we showed up to mission control about an hour after the accident. And, uh, and if I remember, we were there 35 hours, uh, uh, wait, you know, trying to get it ready, figure out how to get it back.

And so John went, John went, uh, we were in the lunar module simulator, figuring out all of the power up and, uh, and then the, uh, the burns that had to, we had to do to with the lunar module to get them back on, uh, free return.

It was really a tense time, but, uh, they did a good job and the mission control came through with flying colors like we, they always do. And, um, so things got better and better. First 20 hours, I said, we're not going to make it. It was just my, I didn't voice that to anybody, but you could see everything running out about 10, you know, that's the oxygen, the scrubbers for the CO2 and the battery power and everything, uh, running out about 10 hours before we got back. So we had to do something to make it last. And so we started shutting down systems and leaving some on, every others off. And we shut down the environmental control system, uh, the cooler, the heating part, and they got really cold in there.

So, but we got better at it. And so the, the curve flattened out and now we're going to make it, uh, if we don't have any other problem, we got, we're going to, all our stuff is going to run out 10 hours after we get back. So, uh, then, then everybody began to relax a little bit, but then we didn't want to make any mistakes. And so we were very keyed up.

And, and the interesting part of that story then is, is, and Ken Mattingly ends up flying to the Moon with you then on your mission because he, he got pulled from Apollo 13. Um, that's a, that's an interesting turn of events then as well. So, yeah, yeah, we started training, uh, of course, after the Apollo 13, uh, he was there, uh, you know, with developing the procedures for the shutdown of the command module and then power up the land command module. It was never designed to shut down in space. And, uh, so, uh, uh, the, the procedures that they did and developed, uh, to, to get the thing working again was really remarkable. And, uh, so he always, uh, there's a lot of gratitude from the crew to, uh, Mattingly for, uh, figuring out how to power that thing back up again and in minimum time, uh, and, uh, using minimum, uh, minimum power.

Hmm. Wow, what a, what a time. Like it feels, feels like you, you had a pretty incredible, um, stint there at NASA. I mean, you got to work on Apollo 10, which was the first time, um, the lunar module went to the Moon. It wasn't a landing, but it was a dress rehearsal. And then Apollo 11, you're the commun, basically the communications or Capcom while, you know, when, when Armstrong and, and Buzz Aldrin land on the Moon, um, you're back up on Apollo 13, which is an infamous mission, you know, for, um, how you all were able to successfully bring those, those men home. Um, and then at, at that point, I guess, is when you're chosen for Apollo 16 then.

Uh, yeah, uh, that the rotation was back up and three flights later, prime crew, if you'd fly. So we were back up on 13, so we flew on 16. And then, uh, the only, after that, we got back from 16 and, uh, they needed a backup crew for Apollo 17. And, uh, so I said, I started thinking, I said, John, let's go volunteer for the backup for 17.

He said, oh, it's a dead-end job, you know, you know, we, uh, we're not going to, we're just wasting our time, six months of training again and, and, and nothing after that, there's nothing. And I said, Tom, John, they might break their leg and, uh, we get to go again.

So I talked him into it and, uh, he said, hey, yeah, they might, might be. So, uh, so, but they stayed healthy and, uh, Mattingly didn't want to do it. So Stu Roosa, who was back up on our flight, command module Apollo, he came in and, uh, he was my best friend in the astronaut office and we picked together from the same test pilot school class. And, oh, so we, we had good training together. That was fun. And then after that, uh, uh, uh, I got offered a job by NASA to go to, uh, Washington as the, uh, deputy administrator for legislative affairs, which was a fancy title for the, uh, uh, uh, NASA lobbyist.

And, uh, but, uh, I'm married, I had two years of, almost three years of, uh, of traveling. I said, I won't do that because our marriage was in trouble and, uh, developing major problems in our marriage. So I turned it down. And, uh, I, I had an offer to go into politics back in South Carolina, but I changed my eyes. I said, I didn't want to do that either. Because, uh, so I stayed in NASA and started working on the space shuttle for four years. Okay, three years. And that's interesting because John Young, who you went to the Moon with, also stayed on and worked on the space shuttle as well. He was the first space shuttle, uh, flight commander, if I remember right.

That's correct. And he flew two shuttles. He's the only guy who flew three different spacecraft. He flew two Gemini, two Apollo, and two, uh, two shuttles. Oh, wow. Wow. He was a tremendous engineer and pilot. He was fantastic.

Hmm. Hmm. So I, I have to ask you this. Um, so you're, we can go back to 1972, you know, you're, you're inside the spacecraft on the launch pad of Apollo 16. What's it like being on top of a 363 foot tall rocket that weighs six and a half million pounds and that thing lights up? What's that like? Well, uh, as you're strapped in and, uh, laying there, you know, uh, in your seat and the windows are covered over, so you can't see outside.

And, uh, we, you know, we trained a long time for this thing. And, uh, so everybody's thought was, keep counting, you know, you only had a four-hour window to get off. And if you didn't get off in that four hours, you had to wait 30 days for the Moon to come around back into shape and the position. Oh, so I didn't realize that. Oh, wow. So they're counting down and what you're not verbalizing it, but what you're thinking about, keep counting, keep counting, keep counting. I'm ready to go. 24, 23, 22, 21. And, uh, so your, your focus was scanning this systems and flipping a switch if mission control asked you to do so or whatever.

But mostly it was, you were just laying there, keep counting, keep counting. I'm ready to launch. And, uh, and so when he lit the engines, you didn't hear anything, but the vibration was from side to side was pretty intense.

And, uh, and that lasted the whole first stage, uh, from lift off to shut down the first stage. And then that vibration, as it shut down of the first stage, it was more like we called it the train wreck because you were going from four and a half Gs to zero at the snap of a finger. And, uh, whoa, so it would, uh, if you, if you hadn't been in strapped in real tight, it would have thrown you into the instrument panel.

And, uh, so, uh, we were prepared for that. And then after that, second stage, third stage, it was real smooth, uh, no, uh, no vibration. And, uh, you just watched the, the instruments and your, your velocities counting up. And then first stage, second stage shut down. You're still not in orbit. So you, you, uh, you have to light the third stage and it takes you into orbit.

And Apollo is a hundred miles above the Earth. And you stay attached to the third stage until, uh, you get ready to ignite it again on, and that puts you out of Earth orbit on the way to the Moon.

And that was usually a, a, you'd go around one and a half times. So for us, uh, we were over Australia. It depended on where you wanted to land on the Moon, but we were over Australia when we left Earth orbit. And by this time, the wind is uncovered. So you, you're looking out and seeing the beautiful oceans and the land masses and, uh, but you're busy. And so you don't have much time to view. So once we got going to the Moon, uh, uh, my job was to copy things down from mission control. And, uh, so I was in my seat and I was looking out the right window. That was the window just to my right.

Uh, and it was, uh, uh, and, uh, so as Mattingly maneuvered the spacecraft, the Earth floated into my window over there. And there it was out there about 20,000 miles away. And, uh, is that's this beautiful jewel of blue and white and brown. Uh, the Earth, you, you, you see these artist conceptions of the Earth painted the Earth, but the Earth had no green. It was all brown. Of course, it was wintertime in North America is what we were looking at.

And, uh, so you, you could see Greenland up to North Toll down across Canada, and it was mostly under snow. Then you got down to the Rocky Mountains and the West Coast, you could see in the central western United States, and it was all free of clouds.

And then down across Mexico and down to Central America was the view of the land we had. And the three colors, you know, the blue of the oceans, the brown of the land, and the crystal white of the snow. And there's that jewel of Earth just suspended out there in the blackness of space. I wasn't a Christian then, and I didn't, um, so I didn't know no scripture well. But later on, when I began to, a believer, and I began to study the read the scripture and absorb it, um, in the Old Testament, uh, two verses that described exactly what I saw. And it says, when God made the Earth, he suspended it upon nothing.

And that's exactly what it looks like. It's suspended up. And the other verse was, God sits enthroned above the circle of the Earth. And, uh, and of course, you didn't see God, but I saw the circle of the Earth. And, uh, and, uh, and the sphericity, I mean, you could tell it's a ball, uh, hung up in the blackness of space and how anybody can, after seeing these pictures, how anybody can think it's a flat Earth. It's a beyond reason to me. It's just willfully ignorant, I guess.

Yeah, that's, that's really something like you, um, you've done, you, you basically did a mission, I think only 12 other or 12 men in total walked on the surface of the Moon. Yeah. Um, and you're, you're one of those, you know, and that must have just been, it must have felt like such an honor and a privilege that, that you were in just the, just the right place to be able to do that. Um, and a lot of work too, obviously, uh, to, to get to that point. Well, it was, and, uh, but it was a great honor, no question about it. You know, there were 27 seats to the Moon, uh, nine missions that went to the Moon.

So there's three guys in each mission, that's 27 seats, but three guys went twice. So there's only 24 of us that went to the Moon out of a group of 42 astronauts that were available in those days. And so, uh, it was a great honor. And, uh, I just, uh, looking back now, just, uh, how, how fortunate I was. And, uh, and, uh, I got a prophecy once I became a believer. It says, God is, uh, I have guided your every step.

And, uh, I can see that now that God gave me the soulless experience and, um, opportunity to share it and, uh, of the wonders of the creation and the beauty of the, of the universe and, uh, the Earth and the Moon and all of that. And, uh, just to have an opportunity to, to, there's, there it is. And, you know, it, we have this, uh, uh, view that Apollo gave us of the, of the Earth. And, uh, of course, the satellites have taken pictures of it, uh, but, uh, but it's, uh, seeing it for real, just suspended in the blackness of space. Okay. When I, we came around, we went into Earth, or I mean, lunar orbit, and we came around from the backside of the Moon, and we had the first Earth rise, and there it came up into, into the window of the spacecraft.

And to be honest, my, it was beautiful, but my first thought was, we're a long way from home. I hope this spacecraft holds together.

245,000 miles, 250,000 miles. It varies, you know, the Moon does not have a circular orbit, so it's an elliptical orbit, and it gets, comes into closest like 212 and farthest like 250 away. So, uh, okay. That's a long ways. Yeah, a long ways.

Real long ways. So that, that brings up an interesting point for me. And, and I never thought about this till, till actually I, I got your book, which I encourage anyone listening to this, check it out. It's called Moonwalker. We'll have a link, um, down below if people can go check it out. It's a fascinating read, but, um, you go through the mission, your time at NASA, you go, you land on the Moon, you walk on the Moon, you get to drive on the Moon, just really incredible experience. You come home, everything went well.

And after that, uh, chapter 24 of your book is titled, How Do You Top a Flight to the Moon? Um, is the title of that chapter. And that really struck me. How do you top that? It's like, that's kind of the pinnacle, but yet you now have the rest of your life in front of you. Yeah. What, what was it like when you came back? And then it was kind of this process of like, well, what next? Like, what do I do now?

Well, until Apollo was over, we were all busy. Uh, you know, I, I had done 13 and 16 and 17, and so I was busy. But then after Apollo was over in December of '72, that's when it hit me, uh, you know, now what? And, uh, so I, as I said earlier, I turned down a job, uh, to NASA headquarters. I turned down a political, uh, opportunity. I could have been a congressman from South Carolina and, uh, uh, turned that down. And so, uh, and so a lot of us had that problem, you know, how are you going to top this? And, uh, so I decided just to stay working at NASA, and that was very frustrating.

The shuttle was just getting started. And, uh, so I was working on shuttle operations and doing budgets and stuff like that was, uh, it was a challenging job. And I put my all into it, but it wasn't the, uh, it wasn't the fulfilling, uh, career that, uh, that we'd had at, uh, in Apollo.

So I started looking around for something to do. And a lot of people, a lot of the Moonwalkers decided to go into bid. They left NASA and they decided to go into, into business in some sort. And, uh, uh, some went one, uh, well, manually went back to the Navy.

And, uh, and, uh, I went to, I stayed at NASA for four more, let's say from '72 until '70, end of '72, the beginning of '76. And, uh, finally I decided that, uh, you know, maybe money's the answer. Maybe I can get this frustration and, you know, the sky's the limit with a fortune and you could work and you keep making more and that's going to give me satisfaction. But, uh, I tried that. Uh, I left NASA in '76 and, uh, was a successful businessman.

I was a Coors Beer distributor, one of three astronauts, three Apollo astronauts became Coors Beer distributors. And it was a very lucrative career as a businessman, but I was, I, it was really great, uh, like Apollo, getting it organized and staffed and, and, uh, challenging the, you know, financed and all of that. And, uh, but then after that, it was, uh, you know, now what do you do? You sit there and you, you know, drink beer. Uh, you know, that was, uh, uh, so I sold out after about two years, I sold out. And we had, uh, our marriage was, uh, really, if you, as you read the book, it's, uh, was really going downhill fast.

And, uh, Dottie had thoughts of suicide and, um, she developed, uh, such a depression that was, uh, if this is all there is to life and I'm so miserable, why live any longer? And so she plotted out a way she was going to commit suicide in that car accident.

But, uh, we were in church the whole time and, uh, baptized and confirmed and, you know, all you can do in church, but Jesus was in here in my head instead of in my heart. And, uh, and same with Dottie. So, uh, and, uh, so we, uh, uh, uh, we were certain, she was searching, you know, is this all there is to life? If my marriage has fallen apart and, uh, kids are growing up, uh, maybe they don't need me anymore. So, uh, anyway, but we were at Episcopal Church and, uh, going to Episcopal, this was still at Houston and, uh, uh, we were going to this Episcopal Church in La Porte, Texas. And then October of, no, yeah, October of 1975, they had a weekend called Faith Alive.

And, uh, it was very popular in certain denominations back in those days. And, and what Faith Alive is, some people come to your church and, uh, 10 couples or so, and they share their faith. They share their testimony, how God has changed their marriage, how God changed their life, and how you peace and assurance and all of these things that, uh, knowing Jesus, uh, intimately has for you.

And so, uh, after that weekend was over, uh, Dottie went in, went home and into our bedroom and, um, said, uh, a prayer, said, Lord, I've tried everything but Jesus. Uh, Lord, if you're real, I give you my life. If you're not real, I want to die.

Well, over the next two months, I watched her change from sadness to joy. And, uh, it was amazing. And by this time, uh, we were, we were leaving NASA, uh, uh, was the end of 1975. And we moved to, uh, New Braunfels, Texas. And I opened, uh, started working on opening this business. And three or four months later, we had it ready to go and we opened up. And, uh, I was at the, uh, Faith Alive, but I was thinking about not about Jesus, but about my business and my mind was wondering.

So, uh, and, but I watched Jody change and, uh, over the next six months, and, uh, she began to be a different wife. And, uh, and, uh, so I, I never, I guess I never thought about, uh, and you can, I could, she told me it was Jesus. Uh, and Jesus is first in my life now and not you.

And, uh, and, uh, he's always with me and I'm not leaving. We're, we're like, we're going to, she's going to work it out. And, uh, so, uh, for two years, uh, she just loved me and, uh, and supported me and whatever I did, we were in church together, but, uh, and she was really committed and, uh, didn't, it didn't affect me. I enjoyed our relationship. I knew we weren't going to get divorced, but, uh, I was, uh, not the husband I should have been, but she was accepted me as who I was and, and followed what Jesus said, love your wife. I mean, love your husband and submit to your husband. And, um, so, um, as she did that, uh, I received it.

And, uh, so I got very frustrated after about a year and a half in a beer business. I was frustrated and, and made a lot of money, but I was still frustrated. And so maybe I would have, maybe I would have new business, maybe a challenge or new business. So I decided to sell out.

And I said, uh, uh, Dottie saw the frustration and she said, why don't you pray about it and see if God wants you in a beer business? And well, I didn't even know how to voice a prayer. I, you know, as Episcopalian, you read prayers out of the prayer book and there was nothing in the prayer book that said, uh, do you want Charlie in the beer business? And so I said, well, darling, you pray. Uh, I, and so she prayed a short prayer. She says, God, if you want Charlie in the beer business, give him peace. If you don't want him in the beer business, make it so miserable that he sells out.

Oh, so, uh, uh, the, over the next, that was in like January or so and, uh, and about over the, more than that, it's about a six months and, and it got worse and worse in the beer business, but the money got better and better and better.

So was I going to chase the money or chase the peace? And I decided to sell the business and, um, and, uh, and, uh, made a lot of money when we sold out. And, uh, when I sold out, I just had this peace and, uh, and I was, uh, searching for something to do. And I was in March of '76 and, uh, no, March of '78. And, uh, then, uh, a month later, uh, this really good friend of mine from our church invited me to a Bible study.

And in fact, it was for couples. So Dottie came. It was called Walk Through the Bible. And it was the study of Jesus from Genesis to Revelations, how he's revealed in scripture. And so I, I didn't want to go, you know, a whole weekend, how do you study the Bible a whole weekend? Boring. And, you know, and that's, that was my, that was my thought, but it turned out it wasn't boring. It was really interesting. And, uh, so I, I really began to form this, this, these thoughts that, uh, you know, this is either true about who Jesus is.

And I just give you two, two scriptures that stuck in my mind. One was in John 3:16 that everybody knows, this is Christian, that for God so loved the world that he gave his only son. If he, and if you believe in him, he will not perish, but have everlasting life.

And the thought occurred to me, that's either true or a big lie. It's got to be true or it's, it's a lie. It's a very positive statement. And in John's gospel again, it's Jesus says in 14th chapter, uh, uh, I am the way, the truth, and the life. And no man comes to God except through me.

Now he either spoke the truth or he lied to us. And, uh, so, and we have a free will and we get to decide. So God presents the truth in the scriptures. Do we receive it or we reject it? That's the choice.

And so after that weekend, uh, there was no doubt in my mind, it was the truth. And so I, and sitting in my car, I asked Jesus, I said, this was in that Sunday afternoon. And I said, Jesus come into my life. And for the very first time in my life, I experienced the peace of God. I mean, it was tremendous peace. And I knew that I knew that I knew I'd made the right decision.

And, uh, as the time went on, uh, I just had this insatiable desire to read the Bible. And I didn't have an eight to five job anymore because I'd sold a company. And, uh, but we had money to live on. And I was doing some Air Force work. And, uh, anyway, I just consumed the Bible and I was probably reading two Old Testament, two New Testament, five Psalms, and one Proverbs every day.