S2S Books: "A Great Nation: Rescuing Abraham from Dispensationalism" by Gregory Weaver

This is Strength to Strength Books, where it is our goal to provide you with resources that strengthen your obedient, love-faith relationship with King Jesus and give you solid footing in a shaky world. And today we're excited to introduce you to a new book that we're publishing here at Strength to Strength. And the title of this book is A Great Nation: Rescuing Abraham from Dispensationalism. And the author is Gregory Weaver. Foreword is by Leo Evie. And we have Gregory here on the call with us. Greg, welcome here. I'm sorry, I'm just going to call you Greg. Is that okay?

That's great. I'm so used to calling you that. Um, but I do like the sound of Gregory. I think that's pretty cool. So I'm glad we have that. I have your full name there on the book. I know that was a question at one point, but, um, so Greg, good to good to have you here with us. Uh, Greg lives with his wife and three children soon to be four, right? Um, in Pittsburgh, uh, Pennsylvania.

He is passionate about the Kingdom of God and the spread of Jesus' reign on earth. Gregory has a vision for reaching broken people by using church community to witness to Jesus' redeeming power. He is a leader in his church community, disciples of Jesus.

Along with raising his family, leading in church life, and repairing homes, he enjoys talking to neighbors, reading and writing books, listening to podcasts, hunting, and fishing. And Greg, um, I had one of your brothers write this up for you from your church because I figured that you, uh, would probably not be very interested in doing that. So when I got that, like, yep, that's Greg. And Greg, um, how many deer did you harvest this year?

I think we're at number two. Okay. All right. Well, that's unusual. Okay. Um, I know that you love hunting. Um, so it doesn't surprise me to hear that you have a couple already, um, uh, harvested. So yeah. All right. Great. And also joining us here today is Sam Bair, uh, from Calgary, Alberta. Um, Sam, good to have you with us. Um, Sam is a commissioned teacher in his congregation there in Brentwood. Um, Alberta had the privilege of being in his home and his church community here this past summer. Um, Sam is part of the admin team at Strength to Strength. So he's joining us for this interview. And of course, I'm from State College, Pennsylvania, um, part of the Fathers of Jesus congregation here.

So moving back to this book, what in the world is dispensationalism? Well, you're going to find out if you stick around with it a little bit. Um, you might be thinking, "Oh, no, just another crazy theological, uh, discussion." Well, I will let you decide that, but I want to suggest that it's actually very applicable to you. Um, if you consider yourself a follower of Jesus, this book, this interview, um, is something that I would challenge you to, to, to listen to and to, and to, and to read the book. Um, just maybe a little hint, um, on this idea of what is dispensationalism. We'll unpack that shortly, as I said. But have you ever heard the question or the statement made, um, "United States needs to stand with Israel," um, or "we need a president who supports Israel," uh, or maybe bring it a little bit closer, maybe in a prayer meeting at your church, somebody said, "Let's we need to pray for the peace of Israel."

And obviously, um, we live in a time with as much unrest in the Middle East. Um, and of course, we need to be praying for peace, uh, in our world as Fathers of Jesus, not against that at all. Um, but when we begin to really focus on the nation-state of Israel, um, that's we want to challenge that idea here, um, in, in this call. And of course, Greg is going to be doing that, um, here just shortly. Um, but there's one thing that, that at Strength to Strength here, we want to just say upfront, um, and that is that we want to have no part, um, in the anti-Semitism that is happening in our day.

Um, you're going to hear us critiquing the idea of, of, of Christians supporting, um, in a political way, the nation-state of Israel, but in no way, um, do we want you to want you to leave this interview thinking that in some way we are, um, putting down the Jewish people. Um, actually, our goal is to elevate them, um, along with every other human on planet Earth, to elevate them as God's image bearers.

And most of all, to see the story of the Bible as a, as a unified story that leads to Jesus Christ and his current kingdom as a fulfillment of the old covenant and this expansion idea into, uh, the new covenant. That's our heart here. Um, recently, there's been anti-Semitism here at our campus at Penn State, at Sowers. We've had, we've, we've had the privilege of walking alongside several Jewish people as they have grappled with some of the hate towards them. And so we love these people, um, and, and that's, that's our heart is to, uh, support them in this time and in no way to contribute, um, to the anti-Semitism. Um, however, this is an appropriate time, a very appropriate time in this moment when much of the Western world, much of the Christian world is having this discussion of what, how do we look at this, what's going on in the Middle East, and rightly so.

Uh, and so we're going to be jumping into that here right shortly. A couple of resources, though, um, or as you, as you have been following along with Strength to Strength, we've engaged this topic at other times. Um, recently, or three years ago, um, Adam Boyd did an event on, uh, on classic dispensationalism and the dangers of that. Um, at the beginning of this year, we had a four-part series by John D. Martin, uh, and Paul Garber, uh, titled Thy Kingdom Come. Definitely a good little four-part series. Go listen to that as well. So turning back to, uh, this book, A Great Nation: Rescuing Abraham from Dispensationalism. Um, Greg, why did you write this book?

What's the story behind it? I know that, as I understand, this is a book that you started on maybe seven years ago. Uh, and then more recently, with the kicking off our story here at Strength to Strength, we said, "Greg, we think you need to get this book back on the envelope again." So give us the why behind, behind this book.

Yeah, sure. Um, so the why actually starts a while before I, um, started writing it. It actually dates back to before I was converted and, uh, I was fairly politically inclined. And, uh, I remember having a conversation with someone one time. It's like, "Why is, why does America support Israel the way it does?" And, uh, because we realized that some of the, the politics actually don't align that well. And it was a bit of a mystery to us why, why that was. But, um, you know, I heard some of the kind of the street language or talk about, um, Israel still being God's chosen nation. And so when I got, when I, when I was converted, I just kind of brought that into my Christianity and assumed that it was true.

Hmm. And, uh, very early on, I actually, it was actually in a conversation about, uh, Israel with an unbelieving neighbor of mine. I had, uh, told, given him this point that you sometimes hear from dispensationalists where he, where they will say that Israel won't be defeated until the end of time. Um, I think I had heard about the Battle of Armageddon, although I probably couldn't have told you that. Um, and he, he kind of, he's very well versed in, uh, history. And he looked at me and he said, "You realize that Israel didn't even exist as a nation until 1948?" So it struck me that for 2000 years, that statement that I'd heard so many times wouldn't even have made sense.

And, uh, it was sort of a bit of a start to realizing that I don't understand this very well. And, um, so I, I never identified as dispensationalist, but it was through this, uh, influence of politics and just kind of a little hearsay stuff that, that this kind of subtly crept in. And, sure. And eventually, you know, we, I, I heard some of the alternative, um, options, which was, uh, you know, fulfillment theology. And, uh, you know, seeing how, beginning to read the prophets as I got into my Christianity a little further, I, you know, began to see how Jesus fulfilled prophecy. And, uh, I thought it was profoundly beautiful. Um, I, uh, I thought it was, I thought it was so much better than the, the political stuff that I had formerly kind of, uh, kind of believed, but I didn't, certainly didn't own it very well.

And so what eventually, uh, led up to this book, well, um, I had talked with some people who believe some of these doctrines, and, uh, a lot of them thought that Romans really, uh, proves, uh, their, or helps prove their, their case for dispensationalism or premillennialism, however they would have identified. And I, I thought I'd write a bit on why I don't think Romans, uh, does support that premise. And, uh, so I, I started writing and I soon began drawing on so many other passages. I thought, "Oh, well, maybe I'll just, uh, write, write some on, uh, different, uh, books of the Bible, of the New Testament specifically." And, uh, then eventually I thought, "Well, maybe I should just do a book."

So I kind of started off with a not very serious aim of actually ever publishing a book, but, you know, time kind of moved along and things came about. So yeah, that's, uh, that's the why. I would like to, I'd like to say that, um, the biggest motivating factor is just being, uh, enamored with the, the glory of God's kingdom and the way he, he brought that all about, the biblical narrative.

Amen. And you mentioned, you said, um, you use the term fulfillment theology. And I'm sure that you have encountered people calling you a replacement theologian, right? Or that you're that you replace replacement theology. Um, could you kind of unpack that a little bit? Um, kind of what, what is meant, what is meant by that?

Yeah. So, um, I'll get, I'll get into this a little bit more detail later on, but, um, sure. So the, uh, the question, the question is obviously on how to understand prophecy and whether, uh, Israel is, uh, uh, the church was a deviation from the prophetic, uh, interests or whether it was the, uh, the fulfillment of it. So that's kind of the shorthand, uh, shorthand. And, and I'll, I'll, I'll unpack this a little bit more later as we get into some of the content.

I'll look forward to that. And of course, you, you unpack it in your book too. So yeah, that's great. Yeah. I think there's more detail there, actually. Mm-hmm.

So yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's pretty much the story of, uh, of, uh, of the why.

In your introduction to the book, um, you discuss the history of modern Israel. Um, why does that history matter today? I have to say that when I read that portion of the book, I was a little bit surprised at what I found. Um, not because, well, because I didn't know the history, first of all, but I had heard little hints about what that history was, um, and it didn't line up. Mm-hmm. So why, why is it important that we know that in light of this whole conversation?

Yeah. So I don't think that you're, uh, unusual in your lack of, of, uh, of knowledge of some of the details of this. I was sort of in a similar situation where I, you know, I, I heard bits and pieces, but I didn't really understand it or wasn't that familiar with the whole story. And, uh, that's really why, why I put it in there is because I thought that, uh, it would help set the record straight a little bit on what actually happened. And so really, I, I, uh, I put it in there as a, uh, to try and set the record straight and counter the emotional appeal of the way which not all, but a lot of dispensationalists tell that history.

Um, it's kind of communicated as a romanticized version of the Canaanite conquest. God's behind this thing. And, uh, I think there's problems with that view. And, uh, so the way I, I, the, the where I got a lot of the content, not all of it, but, uh, was from, uh, historians.

And these historians are actually an interesting, uh, outfit because after the war of in 1948, a lot of the, uh, information was, uh, classified. And, uh, after 30 years, uh, both, uh, the, the things, the, the, the content there that's in both, uh, the British and the Israeli archives, uh, gets declassified. So around 1978, this, some of this, uh, these sources were declassified and it, uh, introduced a new generation of, uh, historians to, to this content. And so they began to read it and realize that, uh, what they expected to find wasn't what they found. And it was a lot more gruesome and nasty. And so it actually gave a lot of controversy over, uh, over them.

Uh, some, some of them were, uh, were no longer allowed to teach in, uh, in certain schools. And, uh, a lot, and the interesting thing about this is they were not, uh, Palestinians who were telling the story. These were actually Jewish historians. And, uh, some of them were Zionists, were, and some of them still are. And so I actually drew a lot of it from, uh, from these, these sources. So I think it's not a biased, uh, perspective.

So yeah, and it, I think it, it counters some of their, what they had to say counters some of the, uh, uh, the common misconceptions that we have today, uh, in, uh, or the, the common misconceptions that we have amongst, uh, dispensationalists. And I, I don't throw them all in the same camp. I think some of them definitely do understand it well. Um, but there's still a lot of, uh, street language out there that, um, is commonly believed and not researched.

So a few of these things would be, um, that Israel fought mainly in self-defense in 1948. Um, and, uh, they kind of used that to justify what, what she did. Um, the other one was the notion that Israel was kind of like this vast underdog, kind of like this David fighting against the Goliath of all these other nations. And I go into detail with that in the book. Um, and not saying that Israel wasn't an underdog at some stages in the story, but when it actually 1948, 48 actually came to a head, they were much more organized and, uh, and armed than what people, uh, realized to believe. And I think that the whole, the way that it's put out there as this miraculous event, this, like this miracle from God, I think that's kind of embellished.

It's not quite that, quite that much. And certainly there were some amazing things that came together, you know, and how they put the pieces together to actually come to a place where they could win that battle. So I'm not trying to like, uh, stump at all, but, uh, trying to bring some, uh, some clarity to what actually, what, what I actually gave there.

But probably the most important one is the notion that, uh, that it was a people. We, we hear the term, the people without a land for a land without a people, insinuating that, uh, the land that Israel now, uh, uh, uh, has there in the Middle East was uninhabited, which is very far from, from true. Hmm. And so I go, go through some of the towns that were, um, where there were some, they had some expulsions of the local people and some of the farmland. And so this all being said is not to justify the Palestinians or the Palestinian nationalists. I don't think that they were in the right either, but I think it comes down to, I really want, want this thing to be an appeal to the conscience because Jesus said that, um, you will know people by their fruits.

And I think that's also true of a movement. And I think we really have to ask ourselves at the end of the day on, uh, whether that, whether we believe that. And I don't think that that began to be true when Paul, when Jesus said it. I think it was always true. It's, it's how we read history, uh, both, uh, forward and backward from the time of Christ. And so it's, uh, it, it, I hope it, it helps people think a little differently about the actual event of 1948. So, sure. So yeah, that's just kind of one thing that was, yeah. Um, so that, that's very interesting. I have this book, um, here, Charting the Bible Chronologically, a dispensational book that was given to me, um, here recently, actually.

And that's one thing that, you know, was their defense. It's kind of their way of saying, well, there wasn't many people there in that land, you know, it was, it was empty. Um, but as you lay out in your book and, and, you know, in the introduction there, looking at some of the history, and you also have it footnoted very well too, is, you know, you're, you, you pulled from a number of different sources, um, in this. And as, as I understand too, some of this is kind of coming to the fore here more recently, um, as things get declassified. Is that right? Kind of, kind of helping, helping you better understand, helping us kind of better understand about some of the things going on behind the scenes, um, at that time.

Is, is that right, Greg? Yeah. Yeah. Correct. That's, that's correct. I mean, it's been happening for a long time. Um, it's not been a bit, it's not like very well known on the street, but, uh, there's certainly people who've taken an interest in the, in the, the whole movement have, are definitely very aware of it. And yeah, it's, it's, I don't know if I would say it's growing today as opposed to the nineties, but it certainly has been a hot button issue in certain educational circles since, uh, probably even the eighties. So, okay. Um, and, and finally, one thing that stood out to me too, as I read that introduction there, it reminded me, Greg, of David Brousseau's book, In God We Don't Trust, right?

Mm-hmm. And what he does is he helps Americans, uh, U.S. citizens understand that, you know what, America is not Christian. Look, okay. Look at these facts. And he's debunking an idol is what he's doing, uh, in, in, in that book. And I wanna say you are, you're doing the same thing with those facts. Look at the facts.

Mm-hmm. So yeah, I think that's valid. Mm-hmm. Sure. No, uh, that's definitely, yeah. I mean, you explained it well there. I, uh, I didn't, uh, think of that myself, but, um, that's, that's very much the, yeah, what I hope to accomplish. I think it was very helpful for me to learn that history, um, and to hear now that some of the story has changed because of the, the classified information, because I do feel like some of the people that I've talked to that have put that story forward probably weren't aware of the fact that, that, that it actually changed, that there was information that came out that actually showed a different story than some miraculous just walking into an empty nation and populating it kind of thing.

And that, um, at every hand, you know, God was just making provisions and, and everything, um, just fell, fell out before them. So it actually helps me to put them in a better light to realize that there was actually classified information that may have perpetuated or, uh, moved that narrative along a little bit. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. And so it's, I think it's very useful to, to lay it out and say, okay, this is from Jewish historians, historians no less. This is, um, kind of what happened here. And it's not quite what we've been told or what we've been thinking, um, all this time. So yeah, that's very useful. Yeah. And, and one thing I'll say with the whole, uh, notion that it was a, a land without a people.

So part of what I think, from what I understand, I'm not a, a historian necessarily. So, but, uh, the culture that was there before it was taken over by the Zionists was more primitive. It, it was, uh, a lot of subsistent farming and, uh, just villages. It was not a modern civilization. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, some of the, uh, things, you know, there was, I think there was some land that was underdeveloped that, you know, say modern irrigation systems and just the, the, the, the things that the Industrial Revolution brought to the world, which, you know, were things that the Zionists would've had and the, uh, Palestinian peasants would not. So that did give them access to some land that didn't have people in it.

So from that perspective, there is a bit of truth to it, but, you know, they also cleaned out some villages and a lot of homes and a lot of farms. And so it's, it's not entirely an untruth, but it's, it's very much giving only part, part of the story. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's true.

Um, in the context of your book and, and laying out kind of, you know, the history of how they came about to be a nation in 1948, um, and in the context of some of the conversations that I've had, uh, with people that would lean in this direction. And one of the questions that comes up is, uh, are you against the nation of Israel? Like if you're saying, you know, they, they took the land in the wrong way or, um, you know, we'll get into this later on, like they're not the people of God. Um, often it's framed as, you know, you're, you're just hating the Jews or it's anti-Semitism, just like everything else that's going on.

Um, so just flat out point blank, are you against the nation of Israel? Yeah, that's a very good question. So, uh, no, I'm not. Um, I, I'm not against, I think Israel as a nation has the right to exist, whether it was right or wrong. Um, I don't think it's my or the Christians' responsibility to overthrow them. Uh, and I think that they have a right to exist based on international law. I'm not an expert on those items, but, uh, my, uh, what I, what I am against is labeling it them as the future of God's kingdom and then supporting them politically. Uh, I think it's, we're trading the kingdom of God and, uh, for something that's not the kingdom of God.

And I think that we are getting ourselves invested in something, uh, spiritually that is not, uh, where God's heart is for the future of his kingdom. And so, yeah, I, I would like to see the church be pure, uh, and, uh, maintain the two kingdoms theology. I sometimes have thought that dispensationalists should say they believe, or those particularly amongst the Anabaptists who would adhere to two kingdom theology, should actually call themselves three kingdom theologians because there seems like there's this sidebar issue that's not, uh, somehow doesn't quite fit into either of the two. Uh, when Jesus stood, uh, was tempted on the mountain, you know, and, and Satan at, uh, offered him the kingdoms. I, I think he said all the kingdoms and, uh, I think the only kingdom that was not included in that was the kingdom upon which Christ himself stood.

And that was not one that was of the world. And so, yeah, I, I would like to see, uh, people, especially the Anabaptists, uh, maintain a clear witness, uh, in this area. But, uh, one of the reasons I think that we, we, uh, really need to stress that we're not against Jewish people and even trying to overthrow the Israeli, uh, nation, we, we, why we wouldn't is that I think we're, it, it would be, uh, believing the same lie that, um, most any Christian nationalist movement has bought into, which was that good could be propagated through the sword. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I think one of the worst atrocities, uh, that has happened to humanity was the Holocaust.

And, uh, there's a lot of European anti-Semitism that happened throughout the past century. And once again, I'm not a, uh, uh, I haven't studied these items deeply, but from one of the, one of the things I understand, I think I understand is that, uh, some of the anti-Semitism rose out of people's suspicion and distaste for some of the labor Zionist involvement in the Bolshevik revolution. And the people who paid the price for this was innocent, uh, assimilated European Jews.

And, uh, and interestingly, you know, uh, that as we, uh, move the ball forward, then what would happen if we, we, if, if a world decided they're gonna use the sword to purge, uh, the, uh, world of some kind of evil, whether it would be, say, inside the Israeli government or inside any other government, innocent people would suffer. And I think that is why, like, being against the nation of Israel would be directly counter to, uh, what, what Jesus wants us to do. I mean, he doesn't want us to try and propagate good with the sword. And ironically, I think we see the same thing happening right now with the war in, in, in Gaza.

Um, Hamas, uh, certainly is, uh, has an evil agenda. And in the effort to propagate good with the sword, what has happened is, uh, thousands of innocent, uh, women and children have died. Many more have been injured. So yeah, I don't think that being against a nation would produce anything righteous in terms of the kingdom of God. Yeah, absolutely. Doesn't this bring up the, the heart of this whole thing that, um, somehow the promises of God are being fulfilled in an earthly nation instead of a, a nation that a kingdom that Jesus brought to earth and said clearly that it's, it's not of this world, that this is a, not a ceasing of the nation of God, but a continuation in a different way than I guess the Jews of his day understood it.

And a lot of people understand it today. So are we against the nation of Israel, like the actual piece of land with a governance no more than any other nation because they all stand equal before God? And I forget what the context was, but I heard a, um, or read a brother that someone asked him a question and he just said, I don't think that way.

So are you against the nation of Israel? I don't think that way because at the core of this narrative is a kingdom and a nation that far supersedes earthly kingdoms and nations. So basically touching on the heart of the issue here.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a very well, that's a very good point there. Um, I don't think that we should be against Israel any more than we would be against Russia or America. And I think we should be offended if somebody would call those, uh, nations the kingdom of God as well and believe that the future of, uh, the kingdom of God is going to be propagated by supporting any kind of nationalism, whether it's Zionism, uh, the American, uh, notions or the, yeah, the Russians, it doesn't matter. It's, it's, yeah. It's a head there too much. Yeah. It's a good, no, it's a Romans 13 deal, right? They are the service of God in that way in this earthly kingdom as any other nation preserving humanity.

And we get to participate in this redeeming grace, right? Um, leading people Jesus, the source of life. Good. So let's cut to the quick, Greg, let's get right into the, let's get jump into this deep. Um, but yes. Yeah, I do have a follow up. I do have a follow up question, uh, here. Mm-hmm. Um, so in the context of the, you know, are you against the political entity? And I guess just to, to clarify a little further, you know, to, to recognize those that the Christians that are for a political entity, it kind of begs the question, like, how does, how does believing that affect your life? So if, if there's a, a Christian who supports the national Israel, Mm-hmm, how, how does that come out in, in practical expression?

Like what does, what does that motivate them to do? And if we're not supporting that, what does that motivate us to do? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's, that's a good question. Um, Mm-hmm. So to be fair to dispensationalists, some of them do a much better job than others at being uninvolved politically. I'm really thankful for that. Um, but unfortunately, I, it's, it's not the, uh, larger part of the story.

And, uh, so I think one way in which it, it really affects us is the way in which American evangelicalism specifically has gotten involved with, um, supporting Israel. And I certainly have no problem with supporting Jewish people in humanitarian ways. Um, I think they're our brothers, um, the way anyone else is. But I think where the issue comes in is the way in which it has created a political movement within the United States that does not just support the, you know, the, the downtrodden person who is, um, you know, like the, the good story, the good Samaritan, it, it actually like funds, uh, military efforts. And there's a, a, a well-known Jewish rabbi I sometimes like to listen to, and he's got a radio show.

And, and one time a caller asked him about the way in which the Jewish people and the American evangelicals interact in churches, because obviously Jews feel that, uh, or a well taught Jew, uh, feels that, uh, that Christianity is a, a heretical religion that went off of, of Judaism.

And, uh, this particular rabbi was, was very passionate. He's very passionate about withstanding Christianity and, uh, he doesn't like being evangelized and he doesn't like having, uh, interactions where that, that makes them vulnerable to conversion to Christianity. But many, many, uh, people interact with the, these pastors in these evangelical churches because of the amount of money they get out of it. And they were trying to like kind of sort this out, like, wow, we're kind of doing something that's almost against our religion, but all the money, you know, and, and, and yeah, there's this large support. I mean, I think if it wouldn't have been for the evangelical vote in, um, in America, things would've been a little different in, uh, the support for it in what Israel would've been able to do militarily.

So once again, I mean, I'm not saying that necessarily to criticize the Israeli government's right to do whatever they do, um, from a Romans 13 standpoint, but I'm saying that to show that the church ended up getting some of that blood in her hands. And, uh, that, that is, I think one of the, one of the ways in which it really detrimentally has affected us. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. I just saw statistics this morning. Um, I mean, there's a huge percentage of evangelicals, you know, are dispensationalists or really think that America is being blessed because America has blessed Israel. And so it has become, you're right, this incredible political movement that's been building ever since, you know, dispensationalism has been kind of kicked off, um, in the back of the 18th century, as I understand. And you, and you kind of get into some of those in your book a little bit. Um, here recently at this last election, um, my Mennonite cousin, um, who votes, uh, said, said, put this out. She said, uh, here's why I will vote in November. And her second point was, I will vote for the most pro-Israel candidate because God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who don't.

Mm-hmm. Genesis 12:3. Um, so let's, let's, let's move, let's kind of take that and move right into our, our, this next question. And that is, so Greg, why don't you think that, that God is working, um, with Israel?

So, you know, we've kind of looked at, you're not against it from a Romans 13 standpoint, but now let's, why don't you? So you're asking what, why I believe that, that God isn't working with them on a spiritual level. That's right. Yes. Kind of, kind of, you know, kind of the, yes, is the modern, maybe another way I can word is, is the modern day Israel, God's chosen nation. Mm-hmm. As that evangelical person, um, or those unfortunately within Anabaptism who've embraced that would believe.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, you mentioned that verse there in, uh, in, uh, Genesis 12:3, um, I will bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you, and you all, the families of the earth, uh, will be blessed.

And it's a, a favorite verse of for dispensationalists. And they understand that to mean people who are genealogical, uh, biological descendants of Abraham and, uh, the nation of Israel, people who are ethnically Jewish. And the idea that God would be giving that blessing, uh, to the church seems like God was unfaithful to his original promise.

And, uh, they, yeah, I, I have heard people, uh, mention that, well, that, that would betray a picture of God where, uh, where he's been unfaithful and, uh, his faithfulness is the basis for even our own salvation. So, you know, he, he can't go back on his promise.

And that would sound, uh, pretty good if it weren't for a few things that Paul had to say about this in, uh, in, in Galatians.

And, uh, Galatians 3:8, he specifically says, and the scripture foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, and you will all nations be blessed. So here Paul quotes this, uh, verse and, uh, he says that when God proclaimed this to Abraham, he was preaching the gospel to him. Now the gospel is not a general good news in Galatians. Paul is very emphatic about it. Is Jesus, uh, his death, his resurrection, his new covenant? And, uh, he had some serious qualms with anybody who would dilute that message, that word gospel.

And, uh, he, a gospel that would, would create a, uh, second class Christian in even the same body, he called that a different gospel.

And so I think if we're using this and, uh, creating a whole second category, not just a divided category, uh, a divided church, but a whole second category running alongside the church, I think that's, uh, hugely problematic. And so the point in the book, I have, uh, tried to promote the word continuationist, continuationist theology, because I believe that the New Testament clearly teaches that the church is the continuation of Israel. So the gospel fulfillment, the gospel of Jesus Christ was the fulfillment to that promise to Abraham.

And, uh, there's a, a verse in there that, uh, let me just look it up here quick.

That's fine. Um, that actually I feel says the, uh, exact opposite of what we sometimes hear.

People, the dispensationalist notion is that if God has made this promise to Abraham, he can't go back on it. Paul says in, uh, in verse 15, chapter 3, Galatians 3:15, it says, though it is only a man's covenant, yet it is confirmed, no one annulled it or added to it.

So he thinks it's a gospel promise and nobody can, can add to it or take or, or, or annul it or take it away. So I find it interesting that the accusation that we are replacing Israel with the church, Paul seems to think that if someone were to say that this promise was something other than the church, they're adding to it or they're annulling the original commandment to Abraham. And, uh, I think the words of Jesus himself speak to this point where he said, Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad.

Mm-hmm. Um, and David Murray from the book, um, Jesus on every page has an interesting statement about this verse. He says, these words of Jesus transformed Abraham from a theistic Jew to a Christian brother. Abraham had more than a general belief in God. He had a joyful Messiah-centered faith.

So hallelujah. Uh, and yeah, I mean, I, it's not like Galatians is the only place either. Um, First Corinthians, um, 1:20, Paul makes a almost a scandalous claim. He says, for all the promises of God in him are yes and in him amen, him being Jesus. So note the word all. He says every promise that God made is finds his yes and amen in him. Now if that weren't enough, he goes on to say to the glory of God through us.

And who's the us? Well, he's writing to a Corinthian church that is, I think, primarily Gentile. And so he says that in the, uh, in the church, which is, is, uh, both Jew and Gentile, a nation that is shaped around Jesus, he said, this is where the yes and the amen in Jesus come together. He did not say it's in the nation of Israel. He said it's in us.

Mm-hmm. So that's a, I, I take that as a fairly dogmatic statement from Paul. I think he's, I think he's trying to unburden himself here. He's, he's wanting this communicated that there's no second class citizens in the kingdom of God.

And, uh, so yeah, I think that, uh, I don't think that we're departing from Abraham's promise. I think Abraham, uh, very much expected something down the line of, uh, you know, what we're saying. I love it. Amen. Mm-hmm. Go ahead, brother. Um, what it does for me is it creates that beautiful continuation of the story of God, the mission of God with humanity, uh, beginning in Genesis. And there's no break. Like to me, it just brings out that beautiful promises given, promises fulfilled. And we live in that continuation of that story. I mean, it's amazing. And that verse that you quoted, that Abraham rejoiced to see my day of Christ, if you go earlier in that chapter, um, there's something really significant to me that Christ says.

He says, I know that you're Abraham's descendants. That word descendant is sperma, which is seed. Mm-hmm. And then he goes on and says, if you were Abraham's children, which is teknon, mm-hmm, it's a different word, you would do the works of Abraham. So it seems like he's classifying descendants of Abraham as those who had faith, the messianic would, uh, what was the quote, um, the Messiah-centered faith of Abraham, those are the true descendants because they're doing the works of their father, Abraham. And to have Christ say it so plainly. And the thing is, is it wasn't a, it was, it could have been an invitation to the Pharisees that he was talking to to say you might be his descendants, but you can be his children by living in the same way or having the same faith that Abraham does.

I think it's beautiful. Yes. Yes. Amen. It's definitely centered on faith. And another passage I have, uh, come to find that quite fascinating, it also speaks to this subject is, uh, Romans 10, where, uh, Paul argues that, uh, the, the, that his seed would be called through Isaac. And, uh, oftentimes we hear the contrast between Isaac and Ishmael and, uh, and Ishmael being, you know, that's within dispensationalism. Ishmael kind of represents the Arab, the, the Muslim, and, uh, Isaac represents the Jew.

But it, it's one of the very next verses, he, he, he goes into, uh, Esau and, uh, Jacob. He says, the one was, was, uh, part of Israel and the other one was not. Oh, before he ever gets into this, he says, not all Israel are of Israel. That's there in the beginning there. And, and so if that was actually speaking about a biological definition of Abraham's nation, why was Esau not included? He was a descendant of Isaac. I mean, he was in the right one. And he, he's excluded from the covenant. And like, why?

Uh, it says the firstborn, he's the firstborn. He had, he should have had the inheritance. And I think that, uh, he's trying to tell us something. There's something more to this than just being a biological descendant. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll stop there. Sure. Um, so one of the things, Greg, that I have admired about dispensationalists, so I've, I've sat under that teaching, um, growing up and, um, is, is there love of scripture? Mm-hmm. And is there deep desire to be faithful to scripture? Mm-hmm. And you can actually look at the dispensational movement and it actually, it was, it was a reaction or you could say it, we could call it a response to liberalism, right?

And so kind of, kind of shoehorned in this movement, uh, of, of a response of a defense against modernism and liberalism, you know, is this dispensational idea kind of all together, you know? So we, this is late 19th century, 20th century stuff. And out of that came all these prophecy conference, you know, across the United States and your, and your Protestant churches that then, you know, fed into the Anabaptist colleges and of course, you know, into the conservative Anabaptist world. Um, but it's, it's their deep desire though. And that's, I want to, I've always been inspired by that is to be faithful to scripture. And so when you're, you know, when we are articulating, you know, our understanding of this expansion theology or fulfillment theology, um, they say, well, you're not being literal to scripture.

Um, we're the ones who are literalists. We take, we take the Bible that says, how do you respond to that? Mm-hmm. Sure. Well, I think we should recognize that the fundamentalist movement did make contributions to Christianity and, uh, going to war with the modernist movement, we're certainly indebted to some of the things that they did. Um, I don't think that means that they were right on everything. And, uh, as far as the, the literal hermeneutic, yeah, it's a pretty common one, but I've never felt very threatened by it because it, it seems to me that even dispensationalists will take, um, lots of passages figuratively. And the disagreement to me does not seem to be between figurative and literal.

It's, it's, it's a disagreement on where they're used. And, uh, I think we just simply should be able to recognize that there's different genres of scripture. Apocalyptic literature does not get interpreted literally. Uh, prophecy uses a lot of poetic language. Um, and, uh, I think we should just simply be able to recognize that, especially when the new covenant gives us reason and even imposes the need, a need upon us to read it in a certain way. I think that at the end of the day, literalism is not, um, the two-edged sword that parts truth that separates left from right. It's Jesus.

And, uh, he is ultimately the standard which we cannot violate. And, um, I, I guess I just don't feel so emotionally attached to this particular way of, uh, reading the scriptures. I think, uh, I think we need to have Jesus in that place.

Amen. So yeah, that's amen kind of, uh, I think kind of generally where I'm at. Yeah. But I, I do appreciate, I mean, I do appreciate the concern though, because I mean, it is certainly true that there are passages we need to take, uh, at face value in that way. And I don't discredit that in every area, but I think that we need to realize that everybody uses both figurative and literal ways of interpreting the scriptures. And, and we do need to try and use it accurately.

Sure. And I would say that, um, yes, it was always hard for me to understand, you know, some of those things, uh, especially as a Anabaptist or a two-kingdom person. And some of the allegiances that I saw within the dispensational camp, within the Anabaptist world, to political movements and things that was always confusing to me. Uh, and then when I was introduced to this kingdom teaching or had this kingdom epiphany or this, you know, where I was this Christocentric, right? Understanding of scripture, like everything flows out of Christ. And it was just like a light bulb. All of a sudden I could, then all these things made sense and it was, it was just illuminating and so exciting.

Um, and so yeah, uh, so that, and so you're, you're saying the first things first here and then out of that flows our interpretation. Yes. Good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think one of the, another one of the verses that's really common is, uh, the rightly dividing the word of truth. And, uh, I, uh, I think that that's a, that's a favorite verse for dispensationalists and maybe Protestantism at large really likes that. And, um, yeah, I think we do need to have a hermeneutic to do that. And I, I just, I think it's Jesus. And I think that we shouldn't be as much concerned about what's literal or what's not. We should be concerned about what's true in light of Jesus.