We Need Each Other: Rediscovering Church - Elisha Byler

Guide me, O the great Jehovah, pilgrim through these barrenness. Good morning and welcome to Hook for Wandering Amish. It's good to have you all on here this morning. Today is September 6, the first Saturday of September. Hook for Wandering Amish meets the first Saturday of each month, and more information can be found on the website. We're very blessed to have Elijah Beiler on here this morning. It's a blessing to have you, Elijah. And another blessing is that Elijah Beiler is my brother-in-law. So Elijah and his family live in Mexico, in the Cobra Canyon.

So I will turn the time over to Brother Elijah. He can introduce himself, and then he has a talk here this morning that has to do with the church and maybe the many challenges that a lot of people may meet in church.

I look forward to hearing what he has to say. Elijah, I'll have a prayer for you, and then the time will be yours. Are you ready? All right, let's have a prayer. Father, we thank you for this beautiful morning. Thank you for blessing us so richly with life, with hope, with brothers, with sisters. Thank you for the church, the bride of Christ. Lord, and help us to be builders of your church, of your kingdom. Bless us here this morning. Bless everyone on this meeting in the precious name of Jesus. Amen. All right, Elijah, the time is yours. All right, well, thank you, Elam. Yeah, so it's good to participate in this. So I'll just continue on a little bit with a little more of an introduction about myself.

So going back before my lifetime, my grandfather would have been Amish. And when my father was 12 years old, my grandfather would have gotten the automobile, cars. And so he was from Belleville, Pennsylvania. My dad grew up there in the Belleville area. And so I personally was actually never part of the Amish, but we would have been part of an Amish Mennonite church.

And when I was, before I was married, I felt the call to mission work. So as Elam said, I live in Mexico. My wife is from the Russian Mennonite people. And we have seven children. And we've had the privilege of bringing the gospel to several villages that had never had the gospel before. There were no baptized believers there when we got there. And it's been a great privilege to bring the gospel to unreached people. So I guess basically you could say that our focus there is church planting. Or yeah, I guess.

So we're trying to teach the scriptures and plant a church among these indigenous people, indigenous Mexican people. Anyway, so with all of that, we've had quite a few years to focus on this topic of the church. So I guess I will not be speaking so much from an Amish perspective. I'll be speaking more from, I guess, my own experience here in Mexico. But people are people around the world. And I think a lot of our needs are the same, and the answers are the same. So nowadays, there seems to be this growing movement, could you say, of people who are part of a church. And this would include people that are part of an Amish church in many cases.

And there are imperfections. There are perhaps problems, maybe big problems, maybe really big problems. And so there seems to be this growing idea that the church just doesn't work. So we're just going to give up on the church. And we're going to not give up on the Lord because we all know that God is perfect. We all need the Lord. And so we're not going to give up on the Lord, but we're going to give up on the church.

And so you have people that just simply stay at home or have a very weak view of the church and of getting along with people. Anyway, so what do the scriptures say about the church? So Ephesians 4, verse 4 says, "There is one body and one spirit. There is one faith, one Lord, one baptism." So God only has one church in that sense.

Around the world, there is one church. And so the scriptures refer to what we would call the universal church, the one church, which is made up of all those who walk with God, who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and are part of God's family. So there is one church. But the scriptures also use the word church in a local context. The Bible talks about the church at Ephesus and the church in Corinth and many different local churches.

So there is also that context where the church is a local body of believers that's functioning together in some way. The Bible also talks about the church as being the bride of Christ. And I think for all of those who are married, we look back at the time we got married, and our bride was just the most precious thing in the world to us.

And in spite of all of the mistakes, the imperfections, somehow or another, Jesus looks at his people as his bride. He looks at us as something very, very special. And he has not given up on his bride. He still has a bride. He did not fail in his purpose. So when Jesus was doing the time of his ministry, one of the outstanding themes that he mentions over and over and over is the kingdom of God. Now, as I understand, the kingdom of God includes the church, but it also goes beyond just simply the church. I think the kingdom would also include that which is in heaven that is subject to God. So the kingdom, I would understand, is everything in heaven and on earth that is subject to God.

But Christ has one bride, and he did not fail in his purpose. So that's something else that I want to talk about a little bit. So something over 100 years ago, there was a person who began to promote this idea that Jesus attempted to start a kingdom, and he failed. And then the Apostle Paul came along and started something a little different. And now that is what we have today as the New Testament church. Well, that's a false doctrine. Jesus did not fail. He was successful in establishing his kingdom on this earth. He was successful in his attempt to redeem a bride out of the wickedness of this earth. Anyway, so Jesus has a bride.

The Bible also uses other metaphorical expressions. The Bible talks about the church being the body of Christ. So we mentioned the verse there in Ephesians. There is one body. And it says that Christ is the head and that we are the body. And so there's a very real sense in which there's a very real sense in which we are spiritually a part, how would I say, we are his representation here on this earth. So Christ is no longer here in person. And so we are his hands and his feet, and we are his representation.

So in his eyes, the church is something very precious. So Jesus told the parable of the pearl of great price. The Bible says there was a merchant who was seeking precious pearls, and he found one pearl of great price. He sold everything that he had, and he purchased that one pearl. So what is the application? What is the meaning of that parable?

I really think there are two meanings to that parable. The one meaning, I believe, is that Jesus gave his life to purchase the church. And so the church is the pearl of great price. And then we, as individuals, following that example, we give up everything to purchase, or not to purchase, to be able to partake of salvation. And so I believe in a very real sense the church is that pearl of great price, and it is precious. So the Bible says that Jesus has a bride and that he is preparing us so that we may be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. And so at this point, we see a lot of imperfection in the church, but there's coming a day when everything will be completely sanctified.

Everything will be transformed, will be perfected in us and in the church. And God's going to have a church, a perfect church without spot, without wrinkle, without any such thing. And so we can't bypass the church. We can't just go around the church.

So nowadays, we have something that they call para-church organizations. And so there are people who, how would I say, so I was talking to an individual a number of years ago, and he said, "You know, the church just isn't getting the job done." I guess he meant evangelizing the world or whatever. He said, "The church is not getting it done." So he said, "Us businessmen, we're going to do it." Well, God does not have a plan B, a backup plan. The church is the vessel that he has chosen to reach the world. The church is his body. It's his bride. It's his hands and feet. The church is the pearl of great price. And God has no other plan.

So we can't just go around the church. And so there are these organizations that are called para-church organizations. And their purpose, their function is to basically do the work of the church, but not actually be the church. And now I'm not entirely against some organization. I believe there are good organizations.

So you have, for example, Christian Aid Ministries is an organization that they do a lot of good things. They distribute Bibles, lots of good things. But one thing that I appreciate about Christian Aid Ministries is that they are not necessarily pretending to plant churches.

They are simply working together to benefit and to help people. But churches reproduce churches. Churches plant churches. And I believe that's one thing that, you know, with the mission work that I've been involved in, I've come to this conviction that I need to be backed up by the church. I need to be part of the church, working through the church and planting a church. And that's how the kingdom gets spread to other parts of the world. So there are people who have been hurt by the church, well, at least hurt by individuals that pretend to be the church and probably are the church in some respect or other. And so what do we do about that?

Some people say, "Well, okay, I'm not going to give up on the church, but I don't like my local assembly, so I'm just going to stay home and be part of the universal church. I'm just going to be part of this invisible universal church, but I'm not going to be part of a local body.

It just doesn't work." But I would like to give us a word of encouragement this morning that as imperfect as the local assembly might be, it probably still has some value, probably still has some representation of the Lord.

And so let's not just give up on each other either because what God is looking at is his presence in us, his grace in us. God is not just looking at who I am naturally. God sees me with his perfection within me. So can we just stay home and be part of the church that way? Well, Hebrews 10:25 says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together." So God does not want us to quit gathering with other believers. God wants us to keep assembling.

So we use the word having church. I'm not sure how biblical that word is, but nevertheless, we use that word, have church or go to church. But whatever the case, God does want us to assemble with local believers and have a functioning church. That is God's will. And that's where we're going to reach our maximum potential is gathering with God's people. And so if we just stay home and quit fellowshipping, we may continue as a believer, but we're definitely not going to blossom as much as we could. So what is the church?

Jesus said that where two or three are gathered together, that he is in the midst. And so it takes more than one person. It takes at least a bare minimum of two people together to be the church. So if there are two or three of us together, is that the church? Well, there are places in the world where there is severe persecution, and they do not have the option of having a huge assembly. And so they gather in very small groups.

In a sense, two or three people is the most embryonic form of a church, but it takes more than two or three to have a normal local assembly in the biblical sense.

So in the scriptures, we read about local assemblies, and we read about many times there aren't a lot of numbers given, but you certainly get the impression there's more than two or three. So there's another idea afloat nowadays that if I'm out through the week and I'm in town and I bump into someone else who's a believer and we sit in a coffee shop and have a coffee together, that's having church. We fellowship around the scriptures and we pray together, and so that was church. Well, there's a sense in which, yes, that can be part of church, fellowshipping with each other through the week. But there's also a sense in which God has designed a local body to be an ongoing organizational structure where, and so the Bible talks about some of that organization.

There are elders, there are deacons, and the Bible talks about what the assembly might look like there in Corinthians. It has a number of practical tips about church life and all of that. So are two or three a church? Well, if that's the only option, that can be a form of church, a very embryonic form of church. But I believe that God's perfect will is something a little bit bigger and more organized than that.

So we have people who have been hurt, have gone through bad situations. And so I think we've probably all seen people, or maybe we are a person who has a really hard time getting along with other people. And I think that tendency could be in a lot of us to have a hard time getting along with people. And I was thinking of a verse there in Proverbs. It says there is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof is the way of death. And it seems to be that we all, in our own natural reasoning, we think that we can figure things out. But the scriptures are clear that if I try to figure things out in my own natural reasoning, I'm going to take a way that seems right, but the end is the way of death.

It says it is not in man to direct his own steps. And so none of us has the ability to direct our own steps. We need God. We need God's direction. We need God's leading. And some of that leading God gives to us directly. Some of that comes through the scriptures. And another portion of that direction comes through the church. And so for a person to really blossom and really, really, really walk with God and reach his full potential, we do need a brotherhood. We need a local brotherhood.

And so I think we've seen people that just stay home and they say, "Well, I believe in the Lord, but I've been hurt, and so I just can't get along with anyone." And they don't blossom. They really don't blossom for the most part. They struggle. They don't get a lot done in the kingdom. And it's because we're not designed to work that way. We are designed to work together in a brotherhood setting. So now what about speaking practically here? What about bad situations? What if right now I'm in a church or a group of people that calls itself a church, and there are abusive situations, there are just bad things going on, maybe there's sin in the group, what do we do about it?

Do we leave? Is it ever right to leave the church? I don't think there's one answer for everyone. I believe that there's where each one of us needs to seek the Lord and pray and seek godly counsel and seek the Lord, read the scriptures, and God will lead us. So the scriptures talk about the Israelites, how God led them with a pillar of cloud and fire, and he led them to the promised land. And I believe that God is willing and able and desires to lead each one of us nowadays. So I've been in some situations where I did actually leave one church and went to another, but I didn't do it impulsively. I waited until I felt like God made it clear that now was the time.

I did it along with the counsel of other people. I did it slowly and cautiously and without, like we would say, burning bridges. I tried as much as possible to keep good relationships. And I believe that God's blessing was on the move. And so I believe there is a time whenever we do, when God does lead us to leave one assembly and go to another. I believe that does happen. But it needs to be within God's blessing under his leading and in his timing. So it is true that there are people who call themselves the church who really are not representing the Lord. That does happen. There are times and places where that happens.

And there are times where we need to leave and do something different. There are also times where God wants us to pray for the people and work with the people that are around us and try to bring help and try to bring correction to their lives. And so sometimes the answer is not to leave, but to work with what's there. And that takes a lot of grace and a lot of patience. But that's beautiful whenever we can work together and sort out our differences and come to a place of unity. So I don't know what your situation is right now. Are you in a church? Are you not? Maybe you're in an Amish church.

I am certainly not going to tell you what to do. Certainly not going to tell you that you should leave your church or that you should not leave your church. But what I definitely would advise each one is really seek the Lord with scripture reading, with prayer, find godly brothers or sisters to counsel with and seek the Lord's direction. But so there's two sides to the whole thing of getting along with people. The one side is that everyone is imperfect, and it takes grace. It takes patience to work with people, and it takes a constant effort to make it work. The other side is that when we work together with a group of people and we do get along with each other, there's incredible beauty and strength and potential in all of that.

And I've experienced some of that too, where I work together with other people, other Christians, and together we get things done. And that is so beautiful.

So Jesus has a church. He has one universal church, and that is divided up into lots of local assemblies. And the church is his bride. It's his body. It's the pearl of great price. It's part of the kingdom of God. And it's beautiful. And if we just kind of step back and think, so why did God create the world? What was his purpose in creating the world? Well, the scripture said he created all things for his pleasure. But as we read through the whole Bible, I would say that it really seems to come out in reading the scriptures that basically the reason that God created the world was because he had this plan of having a people, a kingdom.

And basically, it boils down to the church. In other words, the reason God created the whole world was because in the end, he wants to have a church. He created the world, and the Bible says in the end, he's going to burn everything up. And so everything is going to burn up except the church. That is the one thing that's going to be left when it's all said and done. And so what was the purpose of creating the world if he's going to burn it all up? It was to redeem a church and to have a church out of this world. Anyway, so if God created the whole universe with the purpose of redeeming a church, having a church, having a bride, that's incredible.

That's really awesome. That's mind-boggling that the whole universe exists with the church in focus. So I love the church. As imperfect as the church might be, I love the church. In Romans, Romans 1:16, Paul says, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God and the salvation to everyone who believes." And then I believe it's the next verse he says, "For therein the righteousness of God is revealed."

And then further on, I believe it's in chapter, I forget which chapter it is, three, four, five, somewhere in there, he talks about his righteousness being revealed. And so the whole purpose of the gospel and of what God is doing is to reveal his righteousness in us and through us. It's not for me to display my personal righteousness. It's for me to display his righteousness. And so the focus needs to be God and his righteousness. And so as I look at the church, what do I see? Do I see the imperfections of the people, or do I see the righteousness of God being displayed through imperfect people? And if that's what I'm looking at, that's beautiful.

That's encouraging to see God working, to see God moving. And so let's focus on the right thing. Let's not focus on the imperfections, on the bad things. Let's focus on the righteousness of God being revealed. Is every local assembly actually recognized in God's eyes as a church? Well, probably not. There are groups who have completely derailed, who have gone off into sin, who really are not walking with God. And so I don't believe that everything that people call a church really is a church. Nevertheless, if a group of people calls themselves believers in the Lord, I believe that God in some way continues to work with that and try to bring them back to himself.

But I do believe there are groups of people who have pretty well derailed. And at that point, there's really not much point in staying there. But I really want to encourage each one of us to find a local assembly where God is represented, where God's righteousness is being displayed.

And then, as imperfect as it might be, let's work along with each other. Let's love one another and together represent the Lord. And so as we do it together, there's so much more potential, so much more power, so much more grace.

It's beautiful working together with God's people. And so it's been beautiful working with the indigenous people here in Mexico. The people I work with are called the Tarahumara people. And they come from a very different background, a different worldview, a different situation than most of us. But it's beautiful seeing how the scriptures and the power of God can raise up a church in a place like that. People who never knew the Lord, people who grew up with drunkenness and drugs and immorality and witchcraft and all sorts of evil things now can be part of the church. And not just be part of the church, but they can actually have their own local assembly, and they can actually have their own leadership.

And God can work among them the same as anywhere else. And it's just beautiful to see the power of God working in people like that and see the church being raised up. And they are so imperfect. They're like all the rest of us. They're not perfect people. But as they work together, God is glorified, and there's a local representation of Christ. And then I just, every once in a while, I stop and I think about, this is part of the bride of Christ. These people, someday, by God's grace, will be around the great white throne praising and worshiping God along with all the rest of God's people. So there's such a wide variation in the church.

So many different cultures around the world, different languages, different ways of worshiping God, different ways of doing church. But I'm looking forward to the day when we're all together in heaven around the great white throne worshiping the Lord.

So how can we build the church? How can we go forward? How can we make things work? So I really want to encourage each one of us. There's a part that we can do at home that's really important. And it's this. It's if each one of us at home is very earnest and sincere in reading the scriptures and in praying and in living out a holy life as a family, that's a beautiful foundation.

And then whenever we as families all get together on a Sunday morning, there's already a foundation laid because we've been seeking the Lord throughout the week. And that is beautiful. And so I want to encourage each one, even if you're not a church leader and maybe you feel like you don't have much influence in the church, if you will earnestly seek the Lord at home in Bible reading and in prayer and fasting from time to time, you will become a vessel that will be a big impact in the church.

Look for needs in the church and pray for them. We so often look for needs in the church and then gossip about them. But I would say look for needs in the church and pray for them. Pray earnestly about all the different needs that you see in the church. And as we do that and pray and pray specifically that God would fulfill his promises in the church, beautiful things will happen. So I am aware that there's a lot of struggles going on in a lot of congregations nowadays.

The Amish churches in Pennsylvania, I'm aware, are going through a lot of struggles and so on. But I just really want to plead with each one, don't give up on the church. Whether God has you in an Amish church or some other church, I'm not here to necessarily say that one is better than the other. But nevertheless, in some way or another, God wants you to be part of a church. Don't give up on the church. Even though you've maybe seen some failure, maybe you've seen some imperfections, maybe you've been hurt, maybe there have been some bad things happen, but that doesn't mean that God has given up on the church. It is still the bride of Christ.

All right. Well, that's all I had, Elam. So I'll turn the time back to you. Yeah. Thanks so much, Brother Elisha. I really appreciate your talk here. It was very encouraging. I really appreciate it. Last evening, my wife was reading a story to the children. It was a story of a Romanian family. At that time, the communist government did not allow parents to take their children to church. So they had a real battle working through that whole thing. And as I was thinking about it, what would it be like a child growing up and not being taken to church or gathering with God's people? I think a lot would be lost with that. I'm definitely very thankful to be part of a local church, local assembly.

And then I'm also very, very thankful for the broader church. In the local church, there's a lot of more closer relationships where people know you. They're able to speak into your life. We learn so much. There's a lot of growth that happens there. But as we associate with the broader church as well, there is so much we can learn from that. And that's, I guess, where I come to the place where I really dislike denominations where if somebody's not part of your denomination, then somehow they don't rate. So there's a beauty in the body of Christ. But then, no doubt, people that have gone through deep church struggles may have a hard time seeing the beauty that's in the bride of Christ because of the pain they've experienced.

And I've thought about that many times, like when there's an accident or somebody dies and there's trouble. There's a beauty that comes out of the bride of Christ where people come together. They assist each other through those kinds of struggles, whether it's the loss of a loved one or whatever it may be. And usually, people grow through those times. But if there's church division and problems and gossips, usually that's where people tend to get discouraged and lose spiritual ground. So may we not be very careful that we're never part of a situation where there's gossip or misuse of an individual, but where we are very aware and very careful that we always show forth Christ as much as, yeah, by God's grace.

Now, I do have a question for Elisha. Of course, you were talking about the local church. You were talking about the broader church. And then you were asking a question, are you part of an Amish church? What kind of church are you part of? Should you leave your church? Maybe you want to clear that up a little bit. If you're Amish and leave the Amish church, that doesn't mean you're leaving the church, maybe with a big C or whatever. A year ago, I was visiting with my parents, and my dad asked me, "Do you ever miss being Amish?" And of course, my answer was no. And that led into a conversation where I explained to him, "I know I left the Amish."

And my response was then, "But I didn't leave the Anabaptist faith persuasion. Even though I left the Amish, I still didn't leave the Anabaptist community or the Anabaptist faith persuasion." So anyway, and neither did I leave the church.

So maybe you just want to clear that up just a little bit. Yeah. Thank you, Elam. Yeah, certainly. So God has one universal church, and then God has local assemblies. And we tend to box it in. We talk about Anabaptist or Amish or whatever categories we give. And the Bible does not talk about Amish or Anabaptist or Mennonite or any of those terms. So yeah, leaving the Amish church doesn't mean that we are leaving the kingdom of God. Certainly not.

But yeah, we need to be part of the church. And so if we leave an Amish church, then obviously we need to be part of something different. Or maybe leave one Amish church and go to another. But we need to be part of something. Yeah.

Sure. All right. Thank you, Elisha. All right. It would be a real blessing to hear from some of you in the audience here. You should be able to unmute yourself. Please, if you have a question or comment for Elisha, unmute yourself, and let's hear from you. Can you hear me? Yes, Neil, go ahead. Good morning, gentlemen. Morning, brother.

Just briefly, I've been part of many denominations that are not Anabaptist. And I only learned about the Mennonites probably in 2004. And through a long journey, I'm now part of a Mennonite church. My question is, I don't know very much about the Amish, but it would seem to me from the outside that many of them are not actually Christians.

Would that be a true statement? That is. You're going to answer that, Elam? It's a very hard question. So maybe I'll let you see what you say, Elisha, and then I can maybe have some comments also. Yeah, Neil, I would say you're right. I would say there's probably a huge percent of the Amish who I would say probably have no evidence of actually walking with the Lord at all.

And so if there's a group of those kinds of people that meet together every Sunday, is that a church? I guess not. But I think there are also a lot of individuals sprinkled throughout the Amish groups that I think would be walking with God, would have evidence of actually having a relationship with God.

Yeah, I'm certainly not here to judge and to say, but I suppose your observation is probably correct. Yeah. Yeah. I would tend to agree with Elisha. There's cultural things among the Amish that I think are valuable or godly. But then there's, of course, a lot of individuals that no doubt don't know the Lord. And yeah, so. All right. Is there anyone else? Or did you have anything else, Neil? Well, the other thing that I think that we have to be careful of is being what I call a holy huddle, where we're a group of people, and we don't allow other people to come in very easily. I remember a woman once, obviously not of Anabaptist persuasion, that came into the church, and she asked me whether it's okay for her to come to the church to join in.

And I said, "Of course it is." But I think sometimes we tend to exclude people who are not of "like precious faith," in quotes. And if we keep excluding people out of "like precious faith," then we're not going to grow, I think. Good point. Thank you, Neil. Yeah. Is there anyone else? Yes, I have a question.

Elisha, you spoke a little bit in Ephesians 5 about the church not having a spot or wrinkle. Wondering if you could elaborate a little bit more on that passage, on what the glorious church, not having a spot or wrinkle. He also says that it should be holy and without blemish. And the verse before that, he talks about the sanctification and the cleansing by the washing of water by the word. Could you elaborate a little bit on that? Yeah.

So in this life, I really believe that God is working in us. He is sanctifying us. And so, well, okay, if we back up before that, when we first come to the Lord, I believe the blood washes us, cleanses us, forgives us. And then as we go along, the blood is continually washing, cleansing, and God is sanctifying. And then I believe that there's a verse in Scripture that says something about the grace that shall be revealed at the coming of the Lord, something about that. Anyway, I really believe that when the Lord comes back, there's going to be a final cleansing. Everything of the flesh and of this life is going to be left here, left behind.

And whatever ends up in heaven is going to be that which withstood the fire, that which God redeems out. And so I don't believe that all of my imperfections are going along to heaven. I believe that's all going to be left behind. And at the moment when we actually enter heaven, I believe it's going to be absolutely perfect. But I guess I wouldn't expect there to be absolute perfection before we get there.

Yeah. Thanks for your question, Noah. Thank you for joining us here this morning. I don't think we ever met, but it's a blessing to have you on this morning. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Well, I would just like to comment on a couple of things here. I don't really have a question.

I was Amish at one time. And when people ask me, "Why did you join the Amish?" I say, "Well, because we were without a church and we needed a church to be a part of." So I think I can speak with agree with what Elisha is saying about the importance of being a part of a church.

Can you guys hear me all right? Yes, we can hear you very well. Okay. So one of the comments I had about parachurch, Elisha, and your comment about CAM, which is an excellent illustration there. And then also parachurch ministries within not within the church or not by the church, but supported by the church, where they say, just for instance, a street ministry, a homeless ministry, or something like that, where the church doesn't necessarily get involved with it, but a brother or two may be working on something like that with the support of the church, and maybe even some financial support too, but not necessarily it being a church ministry.

And with that is the ability for a brother who may not have something going on in the church, may not be mowing the lawn or doing jobs around the church or being a part of anything where somebody like that can become a strong part of the church and just be strengthened and just feel good about what's going on there. And the strength of the church comes from each believer.

And if I can just throw one more thing in there, and this one is more about the Amish. There at Kingdom Fellowship Weekend, we had just a wonderful time there. And I was part of some conversations there by young Amish who were trying to find their way. They had left and were seeking.

And I would say, and you mentioned some of this, Elisha, was to not be alone for sure, but even the small church, three families getting together and calling it church, where it may not be the example that we're given in the New Testament in Acts and different places. But one of my pastors years ago said, "If you got to be a small church, do it. That's fine. But always be looking to be a part of an organized church. And don't let that small church thing last too long."

That's all I have to add. Thank you, John. All right. I really enjoyed the talk here this morning. I want to thank you, Elisha, for coming on and talking about such a worthwhile and pertinent subject. I have a question, or maybe it's more of a statement, but the thing of what to do if you find yourself in a church that just doesn't seem to be what you know the church should be.

If you look around and you realize that your church has false doctrine, you're reading the Bible, and there's just things that obviously don't line up, that may not be so difficult. It's still going to be tough. But when you know there's false doctrine, you move on and find a church that believes the Bible. And it's maybe clear-cut, and it's a wonderful experience to find the truth. On the other hand, I think what can be really disillusioning is if you're in a church that doctrinally it's all there.

Any kind of doctrinal statement is just all there. But when it comes to leadership, if leadership is abusive, and I don't want to throw that term around lightly, it's easy maybe to, whenever you don't like leadership, label it as abusive. But let's say you have a leader that cares more about being right than he does about nurturing his people. And you might hear a lot of comparing ourselves with other churches around and, "Look at how they've been missing. Look at how they're just missing it. Look at what's going on over there." And a lot of that.

How do you look at that? Do you have anything to say to how to walk through that? Because I think that's where disillusionment can really set in when it feels like everything's right, but the nurturing just isn't there.

Sorry, John. I had to mute you there for a bit. Now, anyway, I guess John Higgins got on a second device there. Are you able to talk, Ephraim? Yeah. I think I was done there. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that, Ephraim.

There are a lot of difficult situations that are really hard to work through. And I think that's where a lot of prayer comes in, a lot of seeking the Lord, and also finding okay, so I was talking about good counsel.

I guess another topic that I didn't really touch on is the whole thing of counsel outside of our local assembly. So I believe that there are times and places where it's healthy and good to have connections and, how would I say, mentors or godly brothers that we trust in other groups.

We need to be careful with that, obviously, that we don't end up putting one against the other. But I think it's beautiful whenever congregations fellowship and have a network. And so I guess one of the things that I really appreciate is a group of congregations that actually network together. Now, I don't really like the idea of drawing a line around it and calling it a denomination, but I do like the idea of fellowshipping with other congregations. And I think that whenever there's leadership that doesn't quite stay within its boundaries or something, there's where the broader network is very helpful in correcting some of those things. And I really believe that every congregation should be connected with other congregations, if possible, at some level or other, whether it's formalized or even somewhat informal.

But I really think that networking is an important thing. And that really brings a lot of accountability to leaders. And if the congregation doesn't have that very formally established, I do believe that we, as individuals, can cultivate relationships with other mature believers in other congregations. And some of that can be helpful in working through some of those situations. Yeah. Thank you for that advice, Elisha. Well, if there's anyone else, feel free to ask your question or make your comment. I would like to say I do feel a little bit bad about our question about the Amish. The question was, "Are these people born again? Do they know Jesus?" However that question came. And I find this subject a little challenging.

For myself, I lived in an Amish community a little over two years of my life, and it was a super good experience on my part. And I would say out of that community, there was probably a handful of people that I can look back to as far as my memory goes. And I remember being there thinking, "Well, these people, they seem like real Christians and stuff." Then there's another aspect of the Amish, and John Higgins meant about Kingdom Fellowship Weekend, talking to some Amish there.

I got in a conversation with Steve Fisher. He's part of a group of house churches in Lancaster and mostly made up of Amish background people. And I mentioned to him, "Every year at Kingdom Fellowship, there's always new people that are coming here from your house churches that are from the Amish." I mean, right around a 10-mile radius, you got dozens of Amish converts into your house church. And you don't see that with the average American culture. You have to go maybe 100 miles or a radius or something to get a few converts kind of thing, if even that.

I'm just saying the soil in our Western culture seems to be a hard soil to be a missionary in. But when you get in an Amish community, it seems like it's much easier to make converts. And at Kingdom Fellowship there, I'm looking at some of these Amish there. They have the joy of the Lord on their face. They're very happy people. So there is something about the Amish culture that I think maybe, could you say, breeds there's like a fear of God there or something where there's something I think the Amish have that worldly Western culture or worldly Western churches don't have. And I'm not sure what it is. And I was talking to Steve Fisher about it, and he's like, "Yeah, he's not."

Anyway, it's something to think about and talk about. But then also in the Amish circles, you have various different types of Amish where you have more light and others that are more dark and stuff. So I just kind of want to clear that up a little bit. I want to be careful what I say when I talk about the Amish people.

I love the Amish people and all that, so for whatever that's worth. So is there anyone else? We're past 7 o'clock just a little bit. But if there's anyone else that has a comment or would like to say something, feel free. Yeah. Well, I would just like to back you up on that because I've been part of not just Amish, but a number of different Anabaptist groups. And you're going to find that in any church, I really believe. It's not just the Amish. And I know what Neil was after there with that question. But yeah, I don't think we can just shrink it down to one denomination. Sure. Just to clarify, I respect the Amish and their way of life.

I think it's very good. But it's important that they have the true gospel. So I don't dislike the Amish or anything. And I was just reading in Acts recently about how in the early church, they gathered in the temple. And it wasn't long after that the Jews started persecuting them. So I think we're always going to have persecution or differences of opinion. And obviously, the Jews, the early Jews, many of them did not believe in Jesus. So it's not something new to have groups that are religious but not believers. So I'll just say, "I love you all. I don't hate anyone." And thank you, Elisha, for your input. Yeah. Thank you, Neil. I appreciate your comments there.