Why I Left the Air Force as a Conscientious Objector — Zack Johnson

Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here in Boston, Massachusetts, with Zach Johnson. We're actually in Sattler College right now, and if I understand right, you're a Director of Operations. Correct? Yes. Cool. And you've lived in Boston for several years now. Correct. This is my second year working with Sattler, and I went to school here for a couple of years before that. Okay, awesome. The thing that interests me about your story is you were part of the Air Force at one point and then eventually left. Can you talk, walk us through that? Like, what made you enter basic training for starters, and what prompted you to be in that journey? My parents were missionaries down in Quito, Ecuador, so I was born and raised down there, and I went to a church called English Fellowship Church, which means that the best way I describe it is if you're a Christian and you spoke English, you went to that church.

And it's an interesting community. And so what ended up happening was a lot of the expats or the people working at the embassy would be a part of that church. So there was a pretty intense military community among my church. And then later on, about when the high school students turned 18, many of the missionary kids end up trying to choose what they're going to do later. Almost all of them leave. And so in that search, my dad had been doing some work down in Peru after this big earthquake hit in around 2008. And he came back and he said, "The Air Force was amazing. They set up the airfields. The planes came in with all the humanitarian aid drops.

And without the Air Force, none of this aid could have been delivered." And so that started sort of my gears started turning there about, "Oh, like this is this incredible organization that has reach into all corners of the world." And so I started talking to a few of the guys in my church who were also part of the Air Force, and they were really supportive of me trying to pursue that. And so kind of at this moment of turning 18, I thought joining the military was like this incredible endeavor of service. So at my graduation, I applied to a place called the Air Force Academy, which is one of the four or one of the five service academies in the US.

And the whole community stood up and gave me a big applause and kind of sent me on my way to service. Yeah. So where is that? The Air Force Academy? That's in Colorado Springs. Okay. So then from there, you would have moved to Colorado Springs. Correct. Done your training. How long were you in training and all of that? The academies work a little bit differently than enlisting in the normal way into the service as an enlisted member, but you're there for basic training for about the whole summer. So your basic training lasts from June to like the beginning of or the end of August. So it's a long summer of basic training. That's really interesting.

And they paid for my ticket from Quito to go. Like it was, I was worried about paying for school and it was like. And it was all covered. It was like, "If you come here and you get in, we'll pay for your ticket and you give us the service back," which is a ton of, that's a lot of peace for like a missionary kid trying to pay for college. Yeah. Not with a ton of financial resources. Wow. So there was a financial part of it as well that was really comforting. That's interesting though. What's prompting you is more, it sounds like it was more the service aspect, the humanitarian aspect, not militarily. It definitely was.

Although you grew up in the 9/11 age and if you were living overseas during that time, it was kind of like this moment where you kind of felt like if you're an American, you had to sort of give back to protect your interest abroad. And that narrative kind of played in my mind for most of my life as well. And I believed it. I remember my community just showing the videos of Saddam Hussein and burning the oil fields and being like, "This is evil and sort of the US, the Christian nations need to move to stop this." Yeah. So it was a little bit of both, but the main narrative was driven from my dad working with humanitarian aid.

So I'm curious, in this whole process, after you enlisted, did you ever second guess your decision because of your faith as a believer? That's an interesting story. So at the academy, you spend four years there. And then after you go for two years, the first day you show up, your third year, is called Commitment Day. And once you go through that day, you sign this paper and you're committed for seven years. So there's this one day that comes up and everybody is sort of like, "Oh, is he going to sign the paper?" And it turns out that there's a small contingent of Mormons at the Air Force Academy who would go on missions, mandatory missions, and they would quit and they would do a two-year mission and then they would come back to finish up their training.

And I was kind of sitting here thinking to myself, "How is it that the LDS Church is sort of taking over the world?" And here I am with my Protestant evangelical roots thinking, "I need to go do this too. Like I need to find something." So I actually quit the academy after my second year. Wow. Spent a year in Mozambique where my boss was a Quaker. No way. Yeah, he was a Quaker. Wow. And he engaged with me pretty offhandedly, very non-threatening way, just kind of pushing me a tiny bit about, "Hey, have you thought about whether or not violence is the answer?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" Like no Christian had really kind of pushed back on me yet.

After that year, I did come back and I had to reapply. And there were a few questions about, "Can a follower of Jesus be in the military?" So I actually did, I sent like that question, 35 people in my trusted circles. 34 answered back with a resounding yes. One of them, my brother-in-law was still sort of hesitant about that. But I thought about it while I was in the military or while I was serving. But then, you know, there was this moment of a pretty intense corruption in the work I was doing over in Mozambique. And I was like, "I got to, the only way to end this is with violence, really." That's what I concluded.

But I did think about it in that year specifically while I was doing a religious mission. So once you were done there, did you rejoin the academy? I did. Yeah. And then there were really interesting conversations back in 2013, 2014 about the word proselytizing. It's basically when you're in a position of power in the military over someone else that you sharing faith with that person in any authoritative manner is against your commission. So like you can't be sharing your faith in a position of power to a subordinate. And those thoughts are really interesting because you agree to this notion that you're not going to be proselytizing. It's sort of a negative spin on evangelizing. Sort of wrestling with those thoughts too were interesting to me to say, "All right, can I agree to not share or like tell people they should be looking at the Christian faith from a position of power?"

So there's a sort of an interesting piece there that we were wrestling with. And there were a bunch of people at the academy getting in trouble for promoting different religious organizations and institutions. They would get up and they would tell everybody like, "Oh, you should promote this." I remember, "Have you heard of like the shoe boxes delivered at Christmas time?" Yeah. Like people were promoting that. And then like literally the academy would make headlines about, you know, the military is promoting Christianity. And so I did think about it a little bit. And so there was a little bit of vexation trying to deal with those issues from a young age, but you don't really, I didn't really dive too far into it.

There's an African-American writer, an amazing writer, his name is Frederick Douglass, who has this great line. He says, "It is easier to raise strong children than repair broken men." And that is a line that all of us who are parents, who care about this issue, should consider deeply. It's a lot easier to change yourself when you're 16, 17, 18 versus when you're 40 or 50 years old. We're all creatures who have a certain momentum to who we are and a certain set of qualities that become ossified as we get older. But this basic idea of shaping ourselves and crafting ourselves, I would say the glory of the gospel, the glory of Christianity is transformation. It's taking people who were one way and they become a different way.

Going with that same thread, how did your involvement with the military affect your personal living out what you believed? Did it affect your practice of Christianity at all? I would say it was a confusing time of, I think finding a church was the most confusing part of being in the military. I think even with my friends who are still in the military, they're getting, you know, they're getting sent around and tossed every year, every two years. Finding a community in the military, like a solid, stable community is really, I think, the hardest part of practicing a faith. So in Colorado Springs, it's sort of a Mecca of Christianity. There's a church on every corner. I could have gone to a different church every Sunday.

And that's kind of what ended up happening. So a lot of us, you don't really know what you're looking for in a church. And so you end up sort of, your Christian community becomes whoever you can find and associate with, you know, having different views. And there's this notion that, "Yeah, I believe in God, but I don't really know what I believe about him or what church to join." Wow. So that was sort of the biggest problem for me. And then just personally, my walk in holiness and purity was hit pretty hard, especially after sort of being surrounded by people and just wanting social camaraderie. I did pretty poorly in establishing a group of like faithful believers to pour into me.

So you end up kind of feeling like you're walking with one foot in one world, one foot in the other. And so it was kind of like this work hard, play hard Christianity where you sort of work, but then you play hard with your friends. And it's an interesting community. Yeah. It doesn't sound like what we would think of as the ideal for a Christian to have in a community of believers around them. Yeah. And that support base. Well, like you're saying that stability isn't really there. And I'm not saying that what happened to me is what happens to everybody. It was my experience. I know that I could have been more stable and kind of more faithful.

But if you're trying to submit to a church and you're being told, "All right, in two years you're leaving here, you'll be there for two years, and then you're going here," it's really hard to really build a church community under that model. And I think that a lot of us, especially later in life, I think, "Well, I should be making decisions to build my life around the church as opposed to sort of making other decisions and then figuring out church later." There's a big component to it. Here's where it starts getting really interesting because you're not in the Air Force anymore. I'm not, no. So what happened? Where was the change of beliefs and how did that come about?

That's a million-dollar question. So yeah, yeah. So I'll kind of finish my story here. So I went back to the academy and spent two years there. And then the academy, I did pretty well in school. So they looked at me and they said, "Hey, you should apply for grad school spots. That's just going to get a master's degree." And the Air Force Academy has these three spots to go to, the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. Harvard, like right over. Literally, yeah, it's right out this window right here. Oh wow. I competed for a spot to go to the Kennedy School of Government. And this was really, it was like all these things were clicking in my mind because this is a school that pumps out international presidents, a lot of diplomats, a lot of ambassadors.

And so in my mind, I was thinking, "Oh, I could go here and I could be like the American ambassador to Ecuador." I left this out, but I had dual citizenship with Ecuador. And then when you join the military, they actually make you renounce that citizenship to get a security clearance. So I was going, so I came into the School of Government really sort of gung-ho on. Wait, so you did actually go to the school then, right? Yeah, yeah. So right after Colorado Springs, the Air Force sent me here to Boston. And my first assignment, I was a second lieutenant commissioned, was to go get a master's degree and sort of represent the Air Force at the Kennedy School of Government.

These years, you know, it's super interesting to be a military. They called us straight white males. There's not that many of us here at the Kennedy School who had, I would say, more of a conservative viewpoint on life across a few political indicators. I'll let the audience guess what some of those indicators would be. So this was a super interesting time for me because when you are raised, that's a Christian conservative, and then you are confronted with a lot of smart liberal-thinking people who are sort of giving you a prescriptive model of how to run the world, basically how governments should function.

I started just battling with how on earth is it that I, as a Christian, in the military can be subordinate to this government system that I don't really agree with all the principles holding on. I'm sitting here and a bunch of my buddies, and we espouse to be Christians and we're second lieutenants and we're saying, "All right, we're going to be the ones in charge of making the decisions to take life, to not take life." That's kind of what it felt like. But I can't, I don't agree with any of these outcomes.

It was kind of a political, like really turmoil that I was like, "I don't know what the outcome is here. I don't feel comfortable either way politically." I started thinking about the idea of legislating my morality upon other people who didn't have the same morality.

You end up like making friends with people you disagree with. And those political thoughts really, really drove me to like an uncertainty and almost like a spiritual depression of not knowing like, "All right, what is the, like what does this all mean? Why is there no clear path out? I feel like I've dug myself into a corner that I can't get out of." Bouncing around churches a ton here and it was really, it was kind of like an upsetting time in life because I felt like I was on top of the world because, you know, I was studying and I was learning a lot. But my spirituality didn't make, like nothing was clicking with the path I'd laid out with, "All right, I'm going to make my way up to government and sort of rain down my Christianity in a really good way on others."

And it just wasn't clicking. Yeah. And that's where I ran into Dr. Finney Caravilla. I'm sure some of you know his name. He's the founder of Sattler College. I was like, I was searching for church, man. I just didn't know who thought the way I did. Like the Bible wasn't clicking. Nothing made sense. I was just like, "I just need to be a good person." And then for the first time, I like went over to Followers of the Way after meeting him and like saw head covering for the first time, saw modest dress for the first time.

And I was like, "No, like these people are weird, but these people are really weird." And I was just searching for faithful people. Yeah. Kind of like. Not what you were looking for initially? Not really. Like I didn't know what I was looking for. And then somebody handed me his book. It's called King Jesus Claims His Church. And then I opened it up and I leafed through the beginning pages and there's a chapter called Peacemaking and Non-Resistance. And I read it quick and I was like, "Oh, they like think I'm not a Christian." I was just like, "This is horrible. I really thought I had found some answers here." But that initial encounter with a group of people that takes the commandments of God seriously and literally was really something like consistent that I thought was so refreshing.

Whereas if I were to go, I was attending a church not too far away from here. And after the outcome of the election, like it seemed like people came to church like wearing sackcloth and ashes and they were mourning.

And I was thinking about this. I was like, "Our hope shouldn't be in this political outcome." And I can't put everything that I have, my life at stake in these outcomes. And at school, their students were weeping. It was just a, it was a really intense season to be like, "Why is it that humanity, the circles I was part of, have placed so much of their life at this political outcome that it seems uncontrollable?" And so I engaged with Finney and Followers of the Way for about three months. They were super loving to me. They understood where I came from. They were supportive. They had me over to their homes. And then I kind of went on this quest to dig into this earlier question of, "Can a follower of Jesus be in the military?"

And sort of I put like all my energy into that. And I went to the library, Harvard Divinity School library. I checked out a stack of books like this big. And I was just reading it. And I gave up on just war really fast.

So it was a pretty quick one. Like when you actually made that step to dive into it and really look at it honestly, you realize this just war thing is just not working. Just war is an outflow of the two kingdoms. We have an instinct that there's a governance here on earth and we need to be a part of it. But just the framework that now Jesus came to establish, arrival nation among nations and your allegiances to him and it can't be to these other nations. Yeah, it went away really fast for me because I felt like it was an answer to like all of this uncertainty that had been brewing for like my whole, basically from 18 to 24, just like searching for answers about why is it that the Bible says this, but we don't do it.

A lot of those questions as well. So I decided to, there's more to that story, but that's sort of how I decided to leave the Air Force. And it was a, yeah, and I can talk more about that later if you have more questions. Sure. So you get to the place where, "I don't want to be part of the Air Force anymore because this just is not compatible with Christianity." So you make that decision. What's your next step? Did you face a lot of opposition? Were you able to just leave? No, no, not at all. So I didn't think so. Yeah. So I was in kind of a precarious situation because the Air Force had sent me to school.

Right. And I had finished a year. So I was about midway through my second year. And I came to these convictions. It basically boiled down to me, and when I was engaging with the church, I was saying, "I will stay in the military if they don't make me use violence and if they don't make me use oaths and all these things." And it's actually funny that the thing that it came down to was the oath that the Air Force would have put me in a, "You can file as a, I don't want to use violence, but you can't be in the Air Force and not take an oath when you promote." So I was basically like searching for a way to stay in under the convictions that I developed.

Wow. Yeah. Because I'll explain a little bit more that the amount, how it was explained to me was if I left my commitment early that I would owe, the number they gave me was half a million dollars of debt back to the government. I was thinking to myself, "I can't afford that. If I make this decision, there's a lot at stake. That's a lot at stake." So there was a guy that basically looked at me. He was also, he shared my convictions, but he had got out after he kind of came to them and he said, "You're going to live in poverty if you make this decision forever, basically. Like you probably won't be able to have a family."

So I'm like thinking to myself, "Oh, is this worth it?" And so that debt piece was really sort of the big one that I was scared of. And also, I didn't want to make it look like I was riding the Air Force's system to get a degree and then to just bounce once I had it just to leave and say, "Ah, thanks for all the education. See you later." So I turned it in as soon as I could to say, "Hey, pull me out of school. I don't need the degree. Like I'm trying to show you that my convictions are sincere and I'll take whatever the consequences are." So you enter a process called becoming a conscientious objector and you file through.

Each branch of the military has different ways you file. But the way that I've described the process to people is I assembled a 70-page document that went through answering all the questions about my sincerity and these things. So you get this package together. I had to write all my friends and family asking for letters of reference to support my sincerity. And that was probably the hardest part because it was like, if you come from my background, you can imagine, I didn't know anybody outside of Followers of the Way that would agree with me. So I had to ask my parents, my friends in the military. It was hard, man.

Because obviously when you engage with someone you love and they're your friend and you're saying, "Hey, man, I know we're in this military thing together, but I'm out because of my pursuit of Christ." They kind of look at you and they're like, "What are you saying about me? Like should I be doing that too?" And you're like, "Yes."

Like deep down, deep down, yes. That's a hard, hard journey. That process was kind of intense and just, you know, having some parents that really supported you through it and a community that was like, they were really proud of you. And so sort of it felt like giving up a lot of support that I had experienced. Although it was hard, it was a good experience. And then I assembled that package. You go and you turn it into the base. And I remember my heart, I was holding it in my car. My heart was just pounding. Like, do I really want to do this? And that's after talking to, you know, commanders. I remember the first time I told my commander that I wanted to leave because of this.

Like, it feels like you're giving up your whole life just because this was like, this was like a seven-year pursuit and you have no idea what's after. For me, that was like a big question. Like, what on earth am I going to do after this? Like, I'm going to be like on this track. I thought, I don't know what I thought was going to happen. But then, so you get assigned a lawyer through the Air Force or a JAG is what they call them. And they sort of take that application and they read through it. And so with the Air Force, I had to establish that I'm first of all religious. So I went and talked to a chaplain and talked about the Bible, talked about the Sermon on the Mount.

And I remember that conversation going something like, "I can see your perspective, but sometimes an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Like that's the way this world works." He just didn't agree with you. No, it didn't agree, but it was like very sympathetic and supportive. And then so I established my sincerity and then you have to establish your sanity. So that was with a mental health doctor. So you go up to a mental health doctor and he asks you questions. My interview was like three hours long. He asked a few questions like, "How do you know when you're hungry?"

That's the question I always bring up. I'm like, "How do I know when I'm hungry?" But so like you have to establish that you're not insane because they bring up this, "Do you know you're going to might owe half a million dollars?" Well, yeah. "Do you know what you're doing?

Do you know the implications of this? You're not going to have a job. Like you're not going to have healthcare, all these things." And then you have a trial with a lawyer after you're religious, sane, and sincere. And so Dr. Caravilla was a witness at my trial. Wow. Came up and to the lawyers examining all the evidence to determine whether or not you are sane, sincere, and religious. And so that process takes like, like that took three months. And then once the lawyer turns it in, officers in the military, the application has to go all the way up to the White House to be signed off. So it goes through your first chain of command, your second chain of command, and then your third, which is at the White House.

So it took like, I think it was an eight-month process. So in the middle of that, like I, when you turn it in, I gave up my rank and my pay and got the salary cuts and all that stuff. And then I got sent to another base too. So that was an intense experience too. But yeah, that's sort of how from conviction to getting out. It's an interesting experience, but I will say super fruitful to assemble that 70-page package. Like I was reading the Bible like I'd never read before. Wow. I was like, this place, this place. And I was learning about Christian history and just like really owning my faith felt like something I'd never done before.

And although my foundations, like I remember staying up at night being like, "I'm insane. Like nobody's going to take me seriously ever again in life." But it was a rewarding experience too because to be able to look at someone and be like, "I stood for my convictions," even if you might not agree with them is sort of a really peaceful thing to be able to say at the end of the day. I got stationed in LA. There's an Air Force base in LA and I worked for them as a sort of the bottom rank and all my friends had promoted. It's a really small world actually. So a lot of my classmates from the academy, the only way that you don't promote the first time is if you do something pretty bad.

So everyone like was looking at me and they were like, "I thought you were like a superstar." Yeah. Like what evil? Like who did you kill or who did you assault that made you lose your rank? I explained sort of how I'd come to these convictions. And it was really, I was, my job was to be a congressional analyst. So I was like hosting these senator visits to the base. And I was like, "Why is the Air Force trusting me with this?" Wow. And it was this kind of period of, "I'm going to do my best while I'm here and really submit to what the arrangements I've made." But by the end of the summer, I was the, I got this email.

It was like, "Your application has been approved by the Secretary of the Air Force." They sit, so they sit at the White House. And I walked into my boss's office. I was like, "It came in." And she, my mom had also passed away that summer. So it was like, it was like kind of an intense summer all around. But she was just like so happy for me. But she said, "Alright, I'm going to need you to go and report to this. There's a lieutenant colonel. It's like an 05 or the fifth, the fifth rank among officers." And the lieutenant colonel read through my application and he had, he had a Bible on his desk too.

And he was like, and he was like, "Oh, I've been to Ecuador. I probably know where you grew up." And he looked at me and said, "Alright, for the next 12 days, my only job is to out-process you, which means to like leave the base and make sure your medical stuff is clear, your pays, everything is set up." And he said, "I want you to know in 12 days, you're going to have this half a million dollar debt." So I looked at him and I was like, "Alright, like I agree to it. That's fine with me." So 12 days later, it's my last day. I walk into his office. Everything was done. And he just looked exhausted.

He was like laying back in his chair. Just like messy hair. And he said, "I've called every single number I know how to call and I don't know how to give you this debt. Like nobody knows how to give it to you."

And he said, "I don't know. So I can't keep you here. You're free to leave. And you may or may not get a notification in the next period of time or not." But I never did. I never, I didn't, I didn't try to, I didn't try to pursue the debt.

I asked him, I was like, "Is this something I have to look into to give myself whatever it is that I paid back?" And he said, "No, like somebody else is trying to take care of it." But I never got a, never got a call back. That's why I'm a little nervous always telling these stories. Because somebody might be like, "I know how to give it to him." Like show up at the door and be like, "No, my life is ruined." But no. Wow. So that was, that was October 2017. And then I drove a week later. I was driving here to Boston to start Sattler. Yeah. Oh wow.

That is a roller coaster. So now you're just, you're out. You didn't finish your degree, I'm assuming. I finished, they let me finish my degree. They actually let you finish. They gave me a master's degree. I have a master's degree in public policy and government, which is very interesting as a kingdom Christian to try to figure out, "Alright, what do I do with this?" I got it, but I'm like, "What do I do with this? How can I serve the kingdom with this?" But yeah, I got the degree. That actually worked out pretty well. Yeah. In the end, I mean. It was crazy. It was a, and then it just so happened that, you know, there was a vision here to start a college and there's a faithful church here.

And you know, that it was a, it's still a little tense with like family and acquaintances from the past about who knew me and were really supportive. And they're like, "So you leave what?" And just to explain the new viewpoints. And then I always explain to people, it's not that, it's not that crazy what I believe and what we believe about what Christ taught. And then you walk them through and they kind of like, "Oh, that kind of makes sense. I don't agree." But that's been for the most part my experience. I've walked one other person through the process to leave the military as well. And so I found one person who was swayed by it, not the Christian, unfortunately not the Christian perspective, but just the non-violence as more of a means of operating in life.

So with that whole process of you leaving, what would you say to someone either watching or someone that, you know, that they might know who's hearing this that is potentially going to want to leave the military? What piece of advice would you give them? Yeah, there's practical advice and then there's sort of life advice. I would say if you're seriously considering leaving and like you've already developed the convictions, that the process actually supports you if you have these convictions. And that when you go through it, it's a really rewarding experience to be able to say that I stood for something, I researched it, and I put everything at stake for Christ. And especially if you're talking about Christ, but even any basic conviction.

But if you're thinking about leaving, there's a lot of resources available to you. So there's actually Mennonite Central Committee. They have a military hotline where you call in and you're like, "I'm thinking about leaving the military." Wow. And they'll send you, they'll actually send you a bunch of resources. And I actually met the person who picked up the phone when I called in to support me out of it. And they plugged me into a place called the Center for Conscious and War, who is basically a team of lawyers that will like talk to you, hear your story, and help you assemble your package. And so another piece of advice is like you're definitely not alone.

That support system is really vital, especially when you're interacting with your family who might not be on the same page with you. And previously you might have relied on them for this kind of advice. But yeah, there's practical advice and then there's just this you're not alone tip that like reach out to people, start talking, get excited about it. I know it's kind of a time of like trepidation. Yeah. Gosh, I do this. This is like, you know, cost me everything. But it's also a time to like really solidify your allegiance to the Son of God. And that notion of being excited about Jesus's kingdom and being able to tell your story to convince others to join too.

It's like, it's really exciting. I don't look back on it one moment. I think there's a lot of hard times, but I think following God is really what it comes down to. And it's worth it. That's an amazing story. Thank you. Yeah, that's cool. Well, all to God be the glory. I mean, he walked me through it. And I really believe that he, people chasing him, they like, he networks them somehow, gives them each other. So I'm very grateful to have met Finney. And I talked to Dean Taylor on the phone too. Read Dean's book. Watched the video series that you filmed of him and his story. Back in the day. Yeah. And I remember my parents came and watched that at Finney's house.

Really? No way. Or at least my mom. And I remember them, I remember it being a process of like, "Oh, I see the logic. I see the train of thought that this isn't an insanity, like something to do with craziness. Like there's some logic to it." And it's not like they had like a visceral reaction like, "This is just awful." Exactly. But they, I mean, they're probably not necessarily at that point, but they could at least see where you're coming from. Exactly. And that's huge. Yeah. Back to the, if you're thinking about leaving, like keep going to the Bible. Like I think that's the most confident I've ever been is when I was reading the Bible.

I'm like, "Wow, the Bible makes sense." Like this is like the kingdom is, it's making sense. Jesus was proclaiming this kingdom. He's like giving us these ways to follow. I was like, "This is awesome." Like I understand the Bible before, like almost like a three-year-old would. Like I don't need, and I think that was just a time of really intense joy in my life too. That is so cool. Where like after, you know, interacting with the Bible and you're like, "What does this mean?" Like if someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And you're like, "But it doesn't really mean that. It doesn't really mean that. It doesn't really mean that.

Oath doesn't really mean you can't take an oath." And so like reading the Bible becomes this refreshing process afterwards where you can say, "Oh, like this is life-giving." And I don't have to like second guess every single thing I read in here about why it doesn't apply to me. I think that was another just really intense time of joy about learning and like a lot of growth. So. Well, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, of course. Is there anything else you would want to add? That's the last question I had. We're here at Sattler trying to reach people who are passionate about God's kingdom and that too. And like one of my missions here is to like find people who would have been in my shoes and like they're thinking about joining the military, but they're not sure.

But I, you know, I'm like really passionate about paving a, like trying to point people to the direction of service that doesn't involve making compromises on faith. So come look at us at Sattler if you're interested. And yeah, God bless you if you're thinking about leaving and all those things. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And we'll want to make sure and put links to this because what you guys are doing here is really amazing. And hopefully we can send some people this direction. And yeah, maybe you can help someone else. You know, that's what it's all about. Yeah, one at a time. Like I said, one is left that I know of. And I'm, yeah, I'd love to create a better network of support for people thinking about leaving.

Yeah. And then of the people who have come out and if you can network those together. And like you're saying, having that community when someone's coming out, someone to actually walk with you. Totally. It makes a world of difference. So don't go through it alone. I had, I had a bunch of people that I, you have to make the steps to reach out to them. Like I don't know you're there. I have to find you. So, but don't be alone. Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it. Of course. Yeah.