War, Politics, & the Patient Faithfulness of God’s People — Stephen Russell — Ep. 215

What you start with is, what does Jesus call me to? What does He want me to do? What would loyalty look like to Jesus in this situation? That's where you start. And then you can answer these harder questions after you've really established that.

All right, well, welcome back to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast, Mr. Russell. It's great to have you on again. Thank you. So we'll see where all this episode goes, but we're recording this in 2024, which is an election year for here in America. And you start your book out with an interesting point. And we'd actually just recorded an episode on Islam and Christianity and some of the clashes and chaos, really, that's come from out of all of that. But I want to bring it a little bit more into the present day. And you actually start off the book—actually, it might be chapter two; it might not be the very start. Hold on just a second here.

Yeah, so there's a chapter in here why I wrote this book. And you mentioned how in January of 1991, you remember watching the Gulf War go down live on TV, which was one of the first really major conflicts that people were able to watch in real time as it was happening.

And of course, Gulf War when Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait and then the coalition pushes him back out. So from the Western perspective, it was a smashing success. I mean, they won the war. Look how great we are, basically.

You talk about then you're in your BT Amish Mennonite church then after this is happening and how afterwards there was discussion happening, obviously. This is a significant world event. And how this phraseology keeps coming up of people saying, "Our missiles and bombs," showing excitement about what these amazing weapons could do, this technology. And you said, "It seemed like an excessive identification with the American armed forces and their sophisticated weaponry. This profoundly affected me because of my own conversion history." So I don't know if you want to tell maybe a little bit of your personal story of how you came to the Anabaptist tradition and then what about that phraseology disturbs you even now? Yeah. When I was 17, I went to a Baptist church.

One of my classmates had invited me to go. And the man who was preaching was a Black preacher from Philadelphia. And you know, I heard essentially the same thing I would have heard at a Catholic church with two differences. One was it was a little more vigorously delivered. And the other was he said, "You have to make this personal. You have to make a personal commitment to Christ." That was different. And so I did that. And the next morning when I got up, I realized two things. I wanted to serve God. And as a Catholic young man, I thought I would go into the priesthood. That didn't happen.

And then I also knew this was in the Vietnam War days, and I was in the last draft, which came a couple of years later. But I knew that I just knew that Christians don't kill anyone. This was a Baptist preacher, so believe me, he didn't preach that. But it's just I knew this. You know, God works with you where you need to be worked with. And so those were two things. I wanted to serve God, and I knew that I shouldn't kill. And so I was in the last draft. My number was so low, I didn't have to worry about it. But before we got to that place, you know, I would think about this.

Well, I know it's wrong to kill, but I also love my country, and I obey the law. And if I get drafted, well, I guess I go to the military. I just won't shoot anybody. Well, so my understanding of non-resistance was very—it was just the initial understanding. And it's grown much since then. But anyway, so after a couple of years, I wanted to go to a non-resistant church. I started attending a BT Amish church where some of my friends were members. And I liked all of this stuff. You know, they had good doctrine. They had a good lifestyle. They were non-resistant. So I joined. And then years later, like you said, it was in '91, I was in another church, but it was the same kind of church, but in Virginia.

And that's when the war started. And I mean, this is why I was in that church, because we were non-resistant. And I was just surprised at the kind of identification that some of these young men seemed to have with what our military was doing.

You know, I don't like that term, our military, but that's how they would have said it. And you know, I thought about it. I thought we hadn't had the draft for over a decade. I don't remember exactly. Wait now, yeah, it was maybe almost two decades.

And you know, I think maybe our churches slacked off in their preaching about non-resistance. And I think that's why there was maybe this awe that was a little bit bothering to me. And what I did after that was I came up with a 10-evening presentation of the history of non-resistance. And I gave it at my church and a few other places. I thought that we already know what the Bible says, but we don't know what history has to say. And I thought that might help. Later on, I saw that, well, we need to even know about the scriptural side of it. And I felt God urging me on to try to write a book. And so that's how Overcoming Evil God's Way came to be.

It's the key reason that I am in the kind of church that I'm in. Wow. So, okay, so I can see why that would be like, whoa, okay, this is a bit of a surprise. So now that's gone for. But you know, since then, America has been pretty involved in the Middle East, you know, since. And I would actually say it's one of the defining things for my generation is just, you know, that's about all I can remember from early days of school up to now, you know, is America fighting different conflicts in the Middle East. And of course, not just America, other countries as well.

And almost the sense that I've picked up from some of our people in our Anabaptist churches of like, oh, well, yeah, like America is like going to come fix this or whatever. And then again, with this being an election year, there's a sense of, oh, if just the right person gets in, we can fix this, you know, idea. And yeah, where do we, how do we even start talking about those kinds of things? Well, you know, one thing I'd like to bring out that's in my book, I read a Palestinian Muslim who described how he understood Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

And he was not very impressed with Islam, though that was his tradition. He said he felt that the Jews were pretty much in the same boat and that they were willing to seek vengeance and all that. And he said what he hears the Christians say is we don't want that. But he said, I've never seen anyone live like that. Wow, that's profound. Yeah. And you know, most Christians are not non-resistant. They should be, but they're not. And so even the Christians he met, he heard what they taught. He knew what Jesus said, but he hadn't seen that. And that is part of the problem. If you try to counter evil with evil or violence with violence, you only breed more violence.

And so America going over there has essentially stirred up more and more terrorists, more and more people that want to join ISIS or Hamas or whatever. And that fits their theology better than it does Christian theology. Islam is about using violence to subdue the world to Islam. And then they don't exactly coerce people to become Muslim, but they put pressure on you to become Muslim. So they believe that Islam should take over the whole world and eventually everyone will become Muslim with some amount of pressure. That's not the Christian message at all. And one of the words I like to use when I talk about what the church's job is, the state's job is to maintain order.

That's the sword. And to encourage people to do good things. Those are the two things that are in the scriptures that the state is supposed to do. The church, I'm going to use words that aren't quite in the scriptures, but the idea is we are supposed to woo people to Jesus. You know, wooing is what you do when you got your wife. You wooed her to you. Well, we're supposed to woo people to Jesus and then teach them more and more what he has to say. So our job is not coercion. Our job is to show through our lives what Jesus does and then say, this is what you really want.

And force, violence only stirs up more force and violence. And Christians should not be engaged in that at all. When they do, they lose the argument. I'll tell you, when I first became a Christian, I was very moved by the abortion, by the fact that the United States had allowed pretty much abortion everywhere for about any reason. And so I actually voted twice after I became a Christian, and I marched sometimes in the pro-life march in DC. And then one day I realized that it wasn't directly to me, but I heard a person who was on the other side talking about these people, these Christians who try to impose their morality on someone who's not a Christian.

And I started to realize, well, that's not right. Okay, to try to coerce someone to live the right way, that's not right. And then I realized from hearing her talk more that people like me weren't just putting a wall between ourselves and her. I was putting a wall between her and Jesus because she saw me as one of those Jesus people. And so Jesus is like that. Jesus tries to tell me what to do. Now, he may tell us what to do, but that's after we surrender to him, after we see what he's done for us. She hadn't seen that. And so that really I already was non-resistant, but I didn't realize I was making a mistake there by being political and by doing those demonstrations.

Everything that Christians do should be to draw people, not to force them. And so this is where things get kind of messy because it seems to me, and I wish we had better data, I guess, on this, but it seems that our Anabaptist people are starting to lose that and getting very involved in different things. And we were talking off camera about what some of those are. Maybe we won't get into specifics, but you know, we're Anabaptists are getting pretty aggressive in politics. And like, if we can just change this thing, then we can fix that. And you know, really getting mixed up in this stuff. And it feels like we are really missing some critical pieces here.

Well, everything Jesus did was more in that category of wooing, you know, inviting people, wooing people. And he did warn them, if you don't come to me, you will go in a direction you don't want to go. You're going to end up in hell, just to be blunt. But he always offered the good thing that come to him and he will give us rest.

And that's what we're supposed to be offering to others. And even if you don't want to look at what Jesus himself says, the political realm is not the place to get change. If one side gets 51% of the vote, then they get to write the laws. But the next year, when there's another election, the other side might get 51% of the vote, and then they can change the laws. This isn't worth it. What's worth it is to one by one change the hearts.

And just changing the laws, it has an effect. And I'm not saying it doesn't have an effect, but it's not what we should be looking for. We should be looking for getting people fully invested in being a Jesus person, you know, looking to him to know how to live and getting our life from him, actually. And you know, I can't imagine Jesus, I'm just going to say it, storming the Capitol or even protesting like I used to. I don't see him doing that. I see him caring about the down and out and dealing with those people personally rather than, you know, getting the government to do it. That's a dead end. And it changes so quick.

You know, one side might be in for a while and get what they want. And the, oh, that's another thing too. I just want to say this. When I look at, okay, we have two parties in the United States, the Democrats and the Republicans. Some of the things that the Democrats want are at least something like what the Bible talks about. And the same thing for the Republicans, but it's a different set of things. But that's not where you get, it's not government that's actually going to deliver. So the Democrats seem to care more for the down and out. And the Republicans seem to care more about morality and things like that. At least that's how it's often looked at.

Well, you don't get either of those things through the government. You get some financial relief for the poor. And the government says that you can develop your own business or something like that to give you that freedom. But really what we ought to be striving for in our own lives and in the lives of others is something that comes from a heart change, not from what the law. And in fact, we should be able to live. Christians should be able to live under an authoritarian government like Nero's or a democracy. That shouldn't be our main issue. There were many Christians, they suffered, but there were many Christians who lived under the Soviet Union. And they gave a good witness.

When the Soviet Union fell, a lot of people who, while communism was in power, they were afraid. And sometimes they were communists, but they knew about the Christians. They probably were curious, why are they so strange? I visited Latvia right after it became free. And a large number of people who used to be communists came to the church, heard the gospel, and gave their lives. And I talked to some of them, and they said, while communism was in power, I thought it was right. And I gave my life for it. And then it fell, and my life felt empty. And then I saw these people, and I wondered. And I came into church, I never would have come into church before.

And I heard something that really made sense to me, touched my heart. That's what you need. The communists tried to make the Christians communists by coercion. Didn't work. The Christians were there after there was freedom. They were there. And the former communists had seen them and knew they were strange. And in curiosity, went into the church, and they heard something that rang a bell in their heart.

So that's the thing that that's how we change people. That's how we change the culture. One person at a time. So when we're looking at something like that, I guess I'm thinking current day right now, we've got some kind of wild stuff happening, you know, in the world. You got the latest Israeli war happening in Gaza against Hamas. And you also have, you know, American warships bombing positions inside Yemen because of the Houthis firing missiles at cargo ships. Just kind of just wild stuff. Looking at that from, you know, we're both in America. And the natural instinct, because I'm, you know, we're American citizens, is to be like, yeah, that's right. You know, the allies, our allies were America or whatever is doing their job.

Again, that's clearly something to your point. I was like, be careful with that. Like, that's not the right mindset as followers of Jesus. How do we check that spirit in ourselves and in our churches and instead keep the focus on Jesus and his kingdom instead of getting all wrapped up in this stuff?

Well, I'm not 100% sure. Part of what I think is the reason that we're wrapped up in it is we have a lot of wealth. And I think that some of us are afraid that that could be taken away from us, either by our own government if it goes the wrong way, or if we're taken over by, you know, if another country conquers us or whatever. I think there's a fear, at least among some, that what we're so used to, which is nice. I mean, God wants to give us a good life. Jesus said, I came to give you life and life more abundant.

He wants to give us a good life. I know in this fallen world, there's a lot of suffering. But that's part of what should draw us to the gospel, that really God wants to give us what is good. We have what we think is good anyway here in our country. And I think a lot of the thing that motivates us is we're afraid we'll lose it.

And so, hey, how do you save it? You get involved politically. And you know what? It feels like you're doing something. You know, we got so and so elected. I went and voted. And so there's this initial sense that I'm actually doing something that's good.

Working one by one takes a long time. Some people say no. It may take a long time until you hear somebody actually say yes to Jesus. And so I think that the immediacy of the political process probably drives it. The fear that the good things that we have, we're going to lose. I think that's part of the thing that drives it.

I hope it's not for us, but I think some people have lost a real connection with Jesus and have replaced a political connection, a political loyalty. I hope that's not any of our people, but once again, it's so immediate. You can do it and you can see that you go out and talk to people, you got to vote for so and so. And then maybe so and so wins. But the Christian witnessing and working with people takes a long time.

So if there's a practical thing people can take away from this episode, again, we look at things in the world that are not the way they should be. It's that more organic, I guess, slow approach of working with people individually, bringing redemption into the world through Jesus and his kingdom through those means, however practically you want to live that out.

Instead of being like, kind of like we had said earlier, well, you know, if we can get so and so in or whatever, we'll fix this. Or America can go over there to wherever Middle East and we'll fix it.

Just saying, no, that's not going to work. It's gotten worse. It hasn't gotten fixed. You know, America has been involved. And right now, I think that you would be hard-pressed to prove that the situation in the Middle East is better than it was when the United States first went in there and fought against Saddam Hussein. I think you would be hard-pressed to prove that.

Yeah, I could definitely see what you're saying there. And I think that's just the point of it's such a different methodology of what you see Jesus portraying. But yet, again, somehow our people get wrapped up in that. And it's just like, yeah, it's a struggle. It's like, how do we keep that from happening? But it's so easy. The temptation is so there, you know, for our people. Well, I would hope that each person who is really non-resistant would at least speak up a little bit when they hear someone saying some of these things, even if it's only asking questions. Well, you know, where do you get that from the scripture?

That's a good point. You know, and because I can give you a whole lot of scriptures that would point, I think, in the other direction. And so, you know, have a little bit of think about it yourself. Oh, one of the things that I tell in the book is, you know, if I meet somebody and he's, let's say he's an evangelical Christian, he's probably not going to be non-resistant. And he may immediately say to me, well, what would you do if your wife were attacked? And one of the things that I believe is you don't start with difficult problems. There's a saying, bad cases, bad legal cases make bad law.

So you don't start with the hard stuff. What you start with is, what does Jesus call me to? What does he want me to do? What would loyalty look like to Jesus in this situation? That's where you start. And then you can answer these harder questions after you've really established that. And so that's what I would really like to ask a lot of our people to do. Really look closely and clearly, what is Jesus calling us to?

And I would say history gives us a little bit of help there. The early church, as I said in another episode, was non-resistant. And they were a lot closer to his time. And I think they reflected much better what he had taught.

Yeah, wow, there's a lot to think about, you know. And I think that's the one piece to leave with people is, you know, this isn't always easy. There's often suffering involved. And as you're saying, sometimes the politics and military and all that can feel like there's some kind of immediate of that we're making a difference, you know. Whereas the slow approach, slow approach or the organic, the redemption that Jesus brings, even if you, you know, look at his life in ministry, you know, working with these people, you know, years, you know, three years with the disciples, et cetera.

It feels like that involves a lot more patience. Is that a fair way of saying it? Yes, that, oh, that is a really good way to say it. There is a really good book. I'm going to, it's not my book. There's a really good book called The Patient Ferment of the Early Church by Alan Crider. And one of the points that he makes is that the Christians, the Christian virtues were very different than the Roman virtues. The Roman virtues were loyalty and courage so that we defend our country. The Roman man goes and joins the military and picks up the sword. The Christians, on the other hand, were about humility and patience. And in the Roman world, who was humble and patient?

Women and slaves and children, not men. And so that was one of the things that the church had to overcome. But it's also one of the things that appealed to people. But it's also one of the beautiful parts of that. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. That's what I'm saying. It did appeal. That's really good. Christianity, we can hardly get this either. But if you can really put yourself in a pagan Roman mind, they were astonished and disgusted at the Christians. You know, we need courage. But wow, what they're doing seems to make a difference. You know, they were really in conflict. And so you had the Christian had to work through that, help him see that, in fact, courage is a good thing for Christians, but it's not picking up the sword and killing your enemy.

It's being willing to die for Jesus. You know, so that even the Roman virtues had some reality to them, but they were being misdirected. So the Christian could help a Roman see that, yes, courage is important, but so is humility and so is patience.

And I think Alan Crider makes this point in his book that as Christians, as the church and the state got mixed closer and closer, they started pushing patience into special little places. It wasn't big in the Christian life anymore.

And so I think I like that you use the word patience. It really must be part of the Christian way of living. Yeah. Yes. Maybe that's something we can make sure and leave with the audience as they listen to this is having that patience to faithfully, I think is a key word, bringing Christ's redemption to the people around you, your community, your whatever, whatever sectors of responsibility that you've been given, that God has given you. That's what you're bringing to those areas. Yes. Wow. Yeah. One year, you may want to drop this, I don't know, but one year, our graduating class took their motto from Lord of the Rings. And it was, go where you must go and hope.

It's in the two towers. And I told them, you missed the first sentence right in front of go where you must go and hope. And so for me, I made this my motto now, have patience. Go where you must go and hope. And I think that that describes the Christian life. Be patient. You don't see everything. You aren't the person you should be that Jesus is trying to make you. Be patient.

Go where you must go. You don't know where that is, but God will lead you. Go where you must go and hope. To me, that describes the Christian life completely. That's so good. Wow. So as we wrap this episode up, is there anything else you would like to leave our audience with?

I'll just say the motto again. Yeah. Have patience. Go where you must go and hope. And if you do that, God will be with you. That doesn't mean there won't be suffering or pain, but do those things and the end result will be the best. And we will be rewarded finally.

Wow. Wow. Phenomenal stuff. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and sharing that. Okay. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. If you found this interesting, you'll enjoy this episode we did with Dean Taylor, where he describes his journey to becoming non-resistant. As always, you can find all our content over on anabaptistperspectives.org. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.