Nationalism and the Kingdom of God — Dean Taylor — Ep. 073

Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. We're here in Boston, Massachusetts, at Sattler College. We're with Dean Taylor. You're the president of the college here. We're in your office. And you did a lecture earlier this year that really caught our attention, and we wanted to talk to you about that and see if we can hit some of those high points. So during that lecture, you said, and it was obviously rhetorical, just to kind of make a point, you read a petition to our president, Donald Trump.

Can you just read that and then explain kind of what you're getting at there and then how, yeah, how that all ties in with parts of our Mennonite history? All right, excellent. Well, okay, I'll start with a letter and then I'll explain what I was thinking. Sure. Okay, the idea was it was bringing out that, you know, there's been a lot of, you know, negative things against the president. And, you know, we know we're supposed to pray for our president and pray and the government. And so the idea, you know, that all these attacks on the president, that we should say something. But in that, I wanted to, I wanted to make a point though, because I was, what I was feeling was that too many of our people are imbibing, they're taking on this whole, I don't know, way of thinking of the current presidency.

And that's very scary. So I wrote this petition. Here it goes. To the president, Donald Trump, we, the conference of Anabaptists assembled today in Shipshewana and the Free State of Indiana, feels deep gratitude for the powerful revival that God has given our nations through your energy and promises joyful cooperation and the upbuilding of our fatherland through the power of the gospel, faithful to the motto of our forefathers, no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. With greatest excitement, we are following the events of our beloved country and experience in spirit the national revolution of the American people. We are happy that in America, after a long time, a government that freely and openly professes God as creator stands at the head of the nation.

With special sympathy, we hear that the current government takes seriously the realization of Christian principles in social, economic, and cultural life and especially emphasizes the protection of the family. Then sign the conference that I was with. So the point that I was making is that with just a couple words changed, that was a telegraph, a telegram that was sent from the Mennonites to Adolf Hitler.

That is just mind-blowing. Give us some context there a little bit. Here's the thing, and I'll back it up like this. Okay, when I was becoming a conscious objector in Germany, and my wife and I, it was in 1990, and we were becoming conscious objectors. And I remember there, we were taken to meet this man, an older man. He was at that time in his 70s, and he lived in some little community somewhere. And as he went there, we talked to him about this whole thing about, you know, the patriotism and how we were coming out of this, you know, in our revival and our own personal, you know, conversion to these ideas, these kingdom ideas, these ideas of Jesus Christ.

And I said, well, what was it like? I mean, you were old enough to remember what was it like when you were there, when Nazism was coming around. And he looked at me and said, you know, Dean, this is a 70-something-year-old man. Wow. He said, it was like a revival. I'll never forget his words. He said, it just swept over us like a spirit. He said, I've left a, there's some sort of painting, he said. He said, we were actually Quakers. He said his background, he's now going to the Mennonites. He said, I left a symbol that my father had painted on the barn, which was a symbol, meaning to vote for the Nazi Party.

His father had done that. Yeah. And these are these Mennonites? These were Mennonites, yeah. And he said, I left it there to remind us that we failed in this and that we took on the spirit and the spirit that took us. You know, years ago, I was, when I first came to Lancaster County, I was doing anesthesia.

And I just came from America, and I moved to Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. And I just thought, you know, anyone who starts to follow Jesus Christ, they're not going to get involved in worldly politics and this kind of thing. And I remember I was working, and I had a Jewish man who was my boss there, an anesthesiologist working there at the hospital. And we had an Amish patient that both of us were working with. And we were started talking about politics. This was back when George Bush was coming through to Lancaster, he flew into Lancaster Conference and all that kind of thing. So it was kind of a big talk. And I was like, oh no, you know, Mennonites, Amish, you know, Anabaptists in general, you know, they do not vote.

He's like, what? What are you talking about? They don't vote. You know, this Jewish boss of mine. I said, oh no, no, they're clear. I've been clear on that for years. They don't vote. He said, ask our Amish patient. I said, I'll ask if you will. So I, you know, I said, so we got his attention and he said, you know, hey, Amos, or whatever his name was. And he said, he said, hey, you know, are you going to vote in this coming election? And he turned around and he said, well, you bet I am. I voted in the last one. I sure I'm going to vote in this one. And I was like, yeah, boy.

So that was my initiation. And it's interesting. I went into the break room, a Baptist man that was in there. He said, hey, can I ask a question? I said, well, sure. He heard the whole conversation. He said, well, how, if you guys vote, well, why don't you go to war?

Oh. If you're going to vote for the commander in chief, then why don't you support him in war? And I said, you get that? Wow. How did he put that on you? He totally got that on me. And I said, I said, I wish all of us would get, you got that. And he asked me that question. And so, you know, as I, that was my initiation to Lancaster County. And I was like, wow, okay, this is something that we're losing. That there, yeah, everyone doesn't vote because, or maybe they do secretly as a church standard, but they're all closet Republicans. They're all closet, you know. So it began to bother me, but on several different levels, because you see, it's not just to not vote.

I really believe that Jesus Christ has the answers for humanity. And we began to think any political party, whether Democrat, Republican, Communist, whatever, fascist, whatever, Jesus has the answers. The next election, I remember I'm driving down 322 there in Lancaster County, and I pull into this pretzel stand. And it's an old, run by horse and buggy Mennonites. And I go in there and I'm about to get a pretzel, you know, a bag of pretzels. And I look on the table, and there where you're waiting to get your pretzels are two stacks of paper.

And one was a stack of, oh, it was a stack of voter registration cards. And the other was a piece of paper of why you should vote for Republicans. And so I said, was that confusing to you? I said, well, what do you, when, I said, so since when have Mennonites started voting? And she said, so I said, and she said, well, it's getting so bad, we're going to have to. And I said, really? I said, you know, historically, it's always hurt both the world and the church when the people of God get involved in politics like this. And she said something or another and gave me my pretzels. And but I realized then that this is happening.

So we go through the next election, you know, we go through the different things and all the buildup with Hillary and Trump and all the things that we saw on the news. I was disappointed by the behavior that I was seeing in the Anabaptists. And as I saw this campaigning and I saw these things, it really concerned me. As a matter of fact, when I was over in Lesbos, a couple of young people that I had been a part with years ago that I was a pastor of had toasted with their, you know, gave a toast to Trump's birthday. And I talked to them the next day. I said, so that, what happened to all my teachings that I used to talk about in church?

And I remember she said, well, Dean, you've been gone a long time. And it hit me that, you know, it's not like at all that I want to campaign for the other party at all. What my heart is, is that, you know, Jesus warns of the leaven of Herod.

And this leaven of Herod is getting into our people. So the biggest mistake that this has ever happened in history was with the Mennonites, with Hitler. And as I first started studying this, I started studying it about 10 or 11 years ago.

It was just coming out. There were some works. Maybe quote him here on your links. Oh, there's tons of material on this. Yeah, and it started to come out. And I started to say, wow, this is very interesting. And then, and now more and more research has come out and it's not a good testimony. But one thing I will say, the Mennonites recognize it as a mistake. And even after the war, the Mennonites repented of this, sometimes even publicly, of their supporting of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. You know, what was happening down in Central America was the same thing, is wherever these German people were, they thought that this revival of the German people was really a good idea.

And they, but the obvious excuse is this, well, we didn't know. We didn't know what happened. Well, yeah, like that's what I heard from some of the people I interviewed when I was with you. We didn't know they were killing Jews and we didn't know. Like literally some of them did not know until the 1950s. Exactly. But that's just the point. That's just the point that by not, by getting our principles off and trying to look to American politics, to politics in general, to fix our problem, we'll end up giving our support to an antichrist and not even know it. That's the point. Wow. So now when you're looking at the current political environment, whether it's far left or far right or whatever, I'm supposed to give my assent to one of these political parties that they're going to have a kingdom answer to this world.

I can't do it. And so I wrote that letter as sort of a thought, you know, we could easily have said this today and some of the people that were in that audience would have said that and even signed that petition to be sent out. And it's a wake-up call to say, guys, this is bad leaven. This is bad leaven. We've been down that road. We've been there. This letter has been written with a different name on the front cover. Yeah, that was the kind of the point behind it. Wow. So then we start getting into all kinds of, I mean, this can get kind of crazy pretty quick. And I have some feeling we're going to probably get some heat for putting this stuff out.

But I think it is worth learning these lessons from history. I can hear people saying, well, okay, but what about the whole Romans 13? Isn't the government have its place in, you know, punishing evildoers and shouldn't we at least, yeah, how does all that work? Do we just need to like sit back and just like, hey, we got nothing to do with that or? That's a so good question. Yeah. I see one of the things that have hurt an early church biblical understanding of non-resistance is pacifism. And what I mean by pacifism is this idea that we should somehow vote in some sort of pacifist political agenda. The Bible very clearly states that there are two kingdoms and that God does not want chaos in this earth.

And so he governs the kingdoms of this earth and makes them to be kept together from the fear of the sword. And so they've been given the sword. We have been given the ministry of reconciliation. And so these two are opposite. But so when you look at Romans 13, it is very strong. You're not going to end up being a pacifist, a liberal pacifist, and quote Romans 13. Let every soul be subject into the higher powers, for there is no power but of God. Powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resisteth shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.

Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same. Now here's the important verse. For he, that is the emperor, is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain, but he is a minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. The first thing to really recognize is that we just finished Romans chapter 12. Romans chapter 12 is kind of a summary of the Sermon on the Mount, where he goes in here and he talks about, therefore he ends up, dearly beloved, avenge not yourself, but give place unto wrath.

For it is written, vengeance is mine. I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore, if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he's thirsty, give him a drink, for in doing so you will heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Now in this two kingdom idea, this whole idea of this new way of Jesus Christ, this new kingdom of Jesus, what do you do with the politics of this earth? I mean, it was a natural question. And so he brings out this view that God has ordained the world to be kept in check, those who are not of God, who are not being led by the love of God and the grace of God, to be kept by the fear of the sword.

Now it's interesting. Who was he talking about? He wasn't talking about a Episcopalian from Texas or a Baptist from Tennessee or wherever this current one is. He's talking about Nero, one of the most wicked people who ever came against the church, who literally lit fires up and down the road of burning Christians, who came against the church. The early church called him the very antichrist, but he's ordained of God to do this job. And the question is this, just because something is ordained of God, does it mean God's favor is on them? Is God blessed on it? Let's look at a couple of examples. So Pilate said to Jesus, do you realize that I have the authority to either let you go or I have the authority to, you know, punish you?

It's interesting. Jesus did not rebuke him and say, you don't have any authority. He said, you have no authority but that which has been given to you by my Father. He recognized that Pilate had been given the authority to kill Christ. It does not make this role a blessed role. It just makes it a role that God has ordained to have to do his service on this earth. And let me take it a little bit further. So he says here, he is my minister. So the question is, where is that context? It's interesting when we look in Jeremiah.

In Jeremiah, we have an interesting example of Nebuchadnezzar. Now Nebuchadnezzar was put in power by God, and God makes that very clear. And he wants people to serve Nebuchadnezzar. But then later he uses Nebuchadnezzar even to bring judgment upon Judah. He uses Nebuchadnezzar, and look at the language he uses to talk about Nebuchadnezzar. It's found in Jeremiah chapter 25, verse 8. Therefore, thus saith the Lord of hosts, because you have not heard my voice, because you have not heard my words, behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant. Same word, my minister. And will bring them against this land and against the inhabitants thereof and against these nations and brings judgment against Judah.

Now here's a question. Is he blessing him or is he just using him for his service? Is this a blessed state because he calls him my minister or is it a different thing? It's interesting. The context tells us. It's a few verses later. And it shall come to pass, this is verse 12, when the 70 years are accomplished that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity and the land of the Chaldeans and will make it a perpetual desolation.

And so he's using him for a clear purpose. Let me give you one more without, hopefully not going too long. Let me give you one more that I think is very important for us to understand. It's in the prophet Isaiah. Okay, so here's the question that Isaiah 10 answers. So Dean, are you saying then that you could never see that God has intervened in war? I mean, when you look at how Hitler was stopped or Stalin was stopped or this bomb ended this, I mean, surely you can get the idea that God was behind this. I mean, here even in Boston, there's stories of the Revolutionary War that, you know, you can see weather. Bunker Hills.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And more beer right over there. Yeah, you see those things. You say, surely this made a difference. And Isaiah 10 is a very interesting one to look at. So this time it's the Assyrians being the ministers of God. This time he calls him his rod, his particular use, his use. And he says, O Assyrian, the rod of my anger, that you're his staff. And the staff in their hand is my indignation.

I will send him against a hypocritical nation and against the people of my wrath, and I will give a charge to take the spoil and to take the prey and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. So he's bringing them again to judge his own people. But pay attention to the next verse. However, he meaneth not so. He doesn't know what he's doing.

Neither does his heart think so. But in his heart is to destroy and to cut off nations but a few. And so he's saying, I'm going to use the Assyrians. They're going to accomplish this purpose for me, but they don't even know what they're doing. In their mind, they're just taking over nations and taking over countries. But I have a sovereign reason why I'm using him. But just because God uses you, does that mean you're blessed? No.

Therefore, it shall come to pass that when the Lord has performed his whole work upon Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks. For he saith, by the strength of my hands have I done it and by my wisdom, for I am prudent and I have removed the bounds of the people and have robbed their treasures and I have put down, he's done all these terrible things. He makes it clear in his principle, Romans 13 principle, God rules the earth. And he has two kingdoms, those who have been given the ministry of reconciliation and grace from God and those who have been given the sword.

And we want to make sure that clear that understanding of two kingdoms is there. We're anabaptists today when they don't understand this, you hear them saying things that I wonder, do you even understand non-resistance? Do you even understand the two kingdoms when we would give our support to these different kingdoms and different politics? And so I think if I'm understanding you right, so in the case of say Romans 13, Paul doesn't say y'all all need to rebel and burn this down until we can put a Christian emperor. Yeah, he doesn't say that. And we should actually pray for them. We should actually support them. We should do what we can to bless them. But clearly our kingdom is not of this world.

Jesus said, if my kingdom were of this world, well then my servants would fight. But now my kingdom is not from here. Jesus, when they would use the term, Jesus is Lord, it was a political statement. I've been to Ephesus. I've been to Ephesus and still on the wall, you can read it. It's right there in Latin and it almost looks like English where it talks about Caesar being Lord. And you can see this. And so when they said Jesus is Lord, they meant it. It's not just some spiritual language. It should be the same for the kingdom of God. King Jesus. King Jesus. So we're looking at the misguided allegiance where we're saying, okay, we're going to side with whatever political party or we're going to get involved with certain countries, you know, policies.

So that's kind of the negative. Pull out the positive. What's the positive side of this vision? What is our place as Christians where we can help with societal issues and turmoil and things? What should we be doing instead of maybe voting in your opinion? Yeah, this is an excellent point. You know, if all we're doing is setting on our farms and setting in America and enjoying people going over to Iraq and getting us, killing people to get us or whatever, doing different military things to get us low oil prices and helping our capitalistic society. If all we're doing is setting and enjoying those things and do nothing, then it's not right. It's not right. Those people are risking their lives for those things.

What are we doing? And so you're right on. I was just reading today, John Howard Yoder has a great statement on this idea of non-violence and non-resistance. And he said it's a funny word. He said, imagine if we were to define marriage with nothing but negative terms. In other words, if we called marriage non-adultery.

He said, so he said it should have a positive and active force to it. And that's exactly what the kingdom should be. Here at Satler College, we're even doing a thing called restorative justice programs where we're wanting to go to the place of danger, to the place of conflict and give a Jesus example. You had Pablo Yoder and we had him up here recently. And there's a man, a hero who has been there and lived this restorative justice, living the places where conflict happened. We need to be more and more in that. We're also doing things where we're getting involved with human trafficking and such. So finding that is absolutely needed and being the change and making the difference.

Instead of trying to vote things, we should exist as a kingdom of God with a prophetic voice to be able to speak to this and to make a difference. Tony Compolos tells an interesting story. And when I was in Greece, we had to leave for a while and go to Bulgaria. And I was in Sofia, Bulgaria. And as we were there, there's this interesting, incredible story that happened there in Sofia, Bulgaria. And this is a perfect example of what you're talking about. All these Eastern, you know, European countries really were involved with shipping off Jews to the concentration camps. Bulgaria has the best record. And you look to find out why and it's an incredible story.

Is that when it came time, the Bulgaria had fallen to the Nazis and the party was involved with it. When it came time that literally the train came to bring in the thousands and thousands of Jews that were going to take them to Auschwitz and take them away to the concentration camps. This tall bishop, Bishop Kriel, comes up with over a thousand, according to the story, over a thousand of the Orthodox people came in and came into there. And he came, the machine guns were pointed right to him. He walked right past the guard, pushed the machine gun away and stood up. And the people came around and encircled the Jewish people that were about to get on the train.

And then as the Nazis were setting, they were wanting to know what happened. He raises his hand and he says, and he quotes from Ruth, "Your people shall be my people. Your God shall be my God. Where you go, we will go." And as he quoted that, the Nazis didn't know what to do. People were laying in front of the train to stop it. And finally, the Nazis got the call, "Forget it, go back." And they left without the Nazis. And never did they come in and have a mass deportation in Bulgaria like all the rest of the countries. That is active kingdom building non-resistance. And that's the kind of thing we should be thinking.

Instead of looking to the politics and looking to the things that we're thinking that's going to have the answer, Jesus has the answer. And the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. For us who are being saved, it is the power of God. And this theology of martyrdom, this active work of the cross, I think is the kind of change that we should really try to propagate. So basically, if we would take the literally countless hours and millions and millions of dollars that conservative Christianity is putting into the political realm and actually do that, well, what you're saying with this restorative justice, think of what actually could be done with that. It's amazing. Amazing.

And how much more lasting fruit it would be instead of just making a mockery of ourselves to the whole earth. I'm sure people will have objections. So the next question is then, what do you say to someone who says, "Well, because you're not voting, then therefore you are part of the problem for not bringing solutions to these evils that we see in America today?" Yeah, exactly. And this is where I would say that just being passive deserves that rebuke. I would say that you got it coming. If you're really just enjoying American liberties and all that it is to be an American, then yeah, you got it coming. But this is why I think we should be actively involved in going to the place of conflict, being the church to this place, not seeing just this border of the United States as being our little world, but being kingdom Christians and taking this and making the difference.

And then I think we'll have something to say back. Just start thinking beyond ourselves, beyond our own country, I guess you could say, or whatever. Yeah, get a global perspective. You know, when I was in Germany, when I was there, you know, here we were in uniform.

This is back before you're in the military. When I'm in the army years ago, this is, you know, back 30 years ago or whatever. And I was a soldier in the army. My wife was in there. We lived off base even there in the community. And we spoke English. We didn't speak German. We wore American clothes. In those days, we voted in American elections and we paid American taxes. In our mind, there wasn't a sense of, you know, getting involved in the politics of the country and Germany and we were Americans. This is the way it should be with us in the kingdom of God. We are the kingdom Christians living in these different countries scattered around the whole earth.

You know, when you go to an American embassy, I'm sure you've been to embassies on all your travels, it's like a little America, right? I mean, literally that's considered like the rights of the country of America, these little embassies. You're supposed to have kind of like a little American flavor there. We should be like embassies. We should be the kingdom of God. That this is, as John D. Martin likes to say, we should show the whole world what the whole world should look like if it would follow the king. That's the church. And so as we go out with our church planting and we go out with our restorative justice and we go out with our different things, these are the purposes to bring them the gospel of Jesus Christ, to bring them the cure for humanity from Jesus Christ as the church.

And really see that literally as a kingdom and stop just spiritualizing it. But truly see our president and our king as Jesus Christ. Is there anything else you would like to add? Real quick, you know, it's funny. You know, I moved to Boston here and right down here at the building. On the corner of the state building.

There's a painting in there by John Elliott. He was the first translator of the Bible in America, a Native American Bible that he translated. And it's interesting, he became very popular here in Boston. And I started, I should read about him and hear about his missionary endeavors and everything. I bumped into something really fascinating that has to do with it. That at that time, they were just changing over from the Oliver Cromwell and then later on the Charles II and the different things in the kings. And he was really getting upset by all this, the parliament and the kings and everything. And he writes this letter rebuking England and saying, we need to let Jesus Christ be head of the nation.

Don't come to the throne, give it to Jesus, let's follow Christ and everything. It was the very first document that was banned in our country. He had to get all the copies. He was in a lot of trouble. He had to burn everything. And it was in. That's hilarious. You can Google it. It's a very kingdom focused. Wait, what year is this? This is 1645, 50. I'd have to check the exact date. Okay, so 100 years before the founding of America then. So I guess I'm guessing the king, the British king didn't like that too much. Very much. Yeah, so it was an incredible document. But when people read the Bible and you really get into it and you start to understand how the Bible makes one message throughout the whole thing.

And you see about the people of God and the blessing of Abraham to bless the whole earth. And you read about the prophets and the coming of Jesus Christ and the coming of the kingdom. And you get to Jesus, you realize, wow, I'm a part of that. And when people get ahold of that from different backgrounds and different things, it's exciting. We don't need to trade that for American politics or any other politics. It's a beautiful message. And I think we should propagate that. Yeah, God's word on its own. Amen. It can hold its own. It can hold its own. Amen. Wow, thank you so much for sharing, especially some of your personal experiences and stories.

That really helps. Amen. I really appreciate that.