Life, Death, Chemo, and Cancer - Arvin Martin

And I admit, I fully admit to what I'm about to say. And I, and I saw it. I was like, "God, what kind of a sick joke is this? I don't know whether I'm living or dying." And I get this call from Christian Light that wants me to be on their pastoral advisory.

Well, what that was, was a confirmation that I wasn't going anywhere soon.

Welcome to this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. We are here today with Arvin Martin. We plan to talk about cancer today, but before we begin, Arvin, why don't you introduce yourself to us? Okay, well, like you said, my name is Arvin Martin. I've lived near Hagerstown, Maryland, practically all my life. I've been married to my wife, Alice, for 53 years.

I have three children and eight or nine grandchildren, depending on how you count. I'm a semi-retired pastor at Mount Alder Mennonite Church, which is part of the Cumberland Valley Conference. For a job, I spent the past 26 years in tree moving, tree transplanting, slash nursery partners with my son-in-law.

Last year, about this time, we sold the business, and so I'm working for the new company two days a week, semi-retired from that. I fancy myself to be a wordsmith, and I've written a number of articles and periodicals. Somebody may have heard my name there. And also, I think back in 2018, I wrote a book called Walking the Talk.

And so there's a few thousand people who would have that book. I actually was not aware of that book until you told me about it. If anybody wants to buy it, where would they go to find it? Christian Light. Christian Light. Okay. Well, thank you for the introduction. It's a pleasure to have you here.

I read your article from the late 2024 edition of The Messenger by Cumberland Valley Mennonite Conference, and you open the article with an astounding statistic about the number of people who will have cancer at some point in their life. I was surprised by how high the number was, but it connected with me because of the actually quite high number of people in my own life, friends, family, otherwise, who have had cancer, sometimes young, sometimes old. Do you remember what the statistics there are? I do.

And this is just not one study. I went over some different studies and different medical things to find this. And the average is about 39% of women will get some kind of cancer in their lifetime, and men right around 41%, which really means that practically everybody is going to come in contact with it at some point in their life.

You know, my first contact was my grandfather had colon cancer and died when I was six years old. So that was my first exposure. My mother passed away from leukemia when she was 42, I think 42, and my own. And so practically everybody that you meet is going to be impacted by it somewhere or another, either themselves or their aunts or their uncles or their dad or their mom or their nieces or nephews. You're going to be contacted with it. You're going to be coming up tight against it. You know, it's going to pull you up short at some point in your life, and probably at a young age.

Another thing that you said in the article that I was interested in was your self-consciousness about talking about hard things that you have experienced. But then you said that you decided that there's a difference between complaining about hard things and making observations about them. So why is that a concern to you? And how do you parse the difference between complaining and making observations about hard things? Okay, well, first, I'll tell you a story. Sure. Which is 25 years ago, I had a business, and this customer would come in, a young fellow, and he would drive from Baltimore to come to our place of business. You know, so he's got an hour's drive. And he would come, and we became friends, kind of, and acquaintances at least.

And he would get to the point to where he would complain about the traffic. He would complain about his wife being too busy. He would complain about the weather. He would complain about this and complain about that. And at the end, he would always say, "I'm not complaining, I'm just making an observation," which never failed to humor me. I thought that was hilarious.

And I think the difference between an observation and a complaint is recently we went to a Chinese restaurant, okay? The food was cold.

Colder than I like, okay? And I was even wondering whether it was correct, health department-wise. And so I could complain and complain and complain about it, or I could just make an observation that, you know, the food is too cold, and I'm not sure that I would go back. And to me, that's a difference. There's a difference between bitterly complaining about something and making an observation. And what I say here today is an observation. I have no complaints. I do not. We aren't really a complaining family. And just we observe things, and we just kind of take it from there.

And I think the things that we see and we observe, and that's really why I'm here today, not complaints of my life, because I don't have any complaints about my life, but I do have observations over the past 18 years that I think would possibly be helpful to someone else.

So when you say for the past 18 years, is that when you were diagnosed with cancer? Yeah. Can you tell us about your cancer? It's a long story. But before I tell you that story, I need to tell you an incident that happened many years before I got cancer, which colored my whole outlook on cancer.

I have a younger brother who's a minister, and there was a lady in his congregation who was diagnosed with cancer. And she basically, what I would call, went screaming into the streets. I mean, she just panicked. Started taking chemo like within two days. Didn't ask for the prayers of the saints. Didn't ask her church to pray for her.

Didn't fast. Wasn't anointed with oil. Just kind of panicked. And my brother told me, he's like, "That's really not the way to go about that." You know, and if you're ever diagnosed with cancer, like put that in mind.

That was years ago. And I put that in my mind. And to me, that's something one of the important things I would like to say today is the fact that God is in control. Okay? You may not, you may be shocked that you have cancer.

One thing you got to remember is God knew about it before you did. Okay? And nothing surprises him. And so we just take it easy. Okay? And I'm fully, I'm fully convinced that there's time to do it right rather than just kind of panic.

So how did you avoid the panic? And how did you proceed when you were diagnosed with cancer? Well, without it, without it, my thought from way back, it was just, I mean, I didn't know I was going to get cancer, but it was, it came to me as a shock. Okay? I went to the urologist. I was having kidney stones.

And I didn't like my old urologist. And so I switched to a new urologist or someone that was recommended to me that was really good. And we talked about it. He said, "Well, the first thing we're going to do is get a CAT scan and see what's going on in there." So he got a CAT scan.

I went back and I'm standing up looking at the charts on the walls. That's what I do. You know what I mean? They're there. So I look at them. So I look at the charts and he comes in and he says, "Hello." And he says, "Sit down."

I'm like, "I don't really want to sit down." You know, you sit down. So I sit down and he told me, he's like, "Look, you've got bigger problems than anything you came here for. You have lymphoma. You have very enlarged lymph nodes, especially in your groin." So he immediately sent me to an oncologist.

And he immediately took a biopsy through my back to one of the lymph nodes. And it came back as being small B-cell lymphoma.

And so he wanted to start treatment immediately.

But because of what I had told, been told and had in my mind from years ago, I said like, "Let me think about it. Let me pray about it. Let me fast and be anointed with oil. And then I will come back to you."

I said to him, I said, "Are you a man of faith?" He said, "I am." I said, "And you understand these things." He said, "Okay, I will allow you to do that. But however, when I say it's time, then it's time for treatment. Like, quit your dallying around." Kind of what he was telling me.

And so I said, "Okay." And he said, "Here's what's going to happen. In three months, when you come back, it's either going to be better or it's going to be worse." I said, "Well, that's fair enough. It'll be better or worse."

Somehow or another, God never allowed me to think about a third option, which is no change.

I went back three months later and there was absolutely no change. So now what do you do? What do you do?

I said, "Well, if there's no change, then I'm not going to do anything now."

He wasn't really happy about that. But I said, "If it starts to get worse, you know, and I know some people can't do this, okay? But it's really important to me. Like, it's your body. You're in charge of it. Oncologists are very, very good at what they do, but they're human. And an oncologist works on statistics.

So an oncologist tells you that you have an 80% chance of living five years. Now, to me, that's like, that's bold. Okay. What's my oncologist know about me? How, you know, how can he say that?" And I actually took offense to it. I just like, "You can't, I'm a, you know, I'm a God-fearing person. Like, I don't know what God has for me. How do you know what God has for me?"

But, and so I was, I was a little put out with him. But I was telling somebody about this, and they said, "Like, no, no, you're getting it wrong. They work on statistics." And so when if they have 15 people with small B-cell lymphoma and five years later, 12 of them still living, it's like, "Okay, we're at 80%."

And that's how they figure. And so that's why he's willing to tell me, like, "Well, there's an 80% chance that you'll be living in five years or 10 years or whatever." So it went almost a year, and I started developing sleep apnea.

I got to the point that I could only sleep with my head down between two pillows. You know, I do all this choking at night, like people with sleep apnea do, waking up, not getting enough sleep. And so my normal medical doctor told me to go to an ear, nose, and throat.

So I did. And he stuck a probe down my throat and kind of said something like, "Oh my."

He said, "You have an infected adenoids." Okay. But on top of being infected, they're also enlarged from lymphoma because your adenoids are lymph glands. So he said, "I can cut them out, you know, and I can take care of that. But however, if you would take chemo, that would immediately alleviate this problem."

So we thought about it. And I want to say, I want to say two things. Actually, the first one is when I say I, I is a combination, or if I say we, it's a combination of myself, my wife, my oncologist, God, and research.

So if I say I, I'm not, I'm not exalting myself. I say it because of a deep faith and a lot of research and consultation. And so when I, so if I say, "I decided not to," it's not, it's not, it wasn't me. It was, it was a combination of all these things.

The other thing I would like to say is I don't want to offend anybody, but cancer is a morbid subject. Okay? And I have some pretty solid thoughts about it. And if I might, I may say something that could offend somebody, maybe a little bit of dark humor. That's, that's kind of the way I don't, I don't mean to offend anybody. I'm just, I'm just saying like how I see it. And I don't really want to, I'm not, I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade. I'm just, I'm just telling you how it, how it, how it was for me.

All right. So at that point, I, I'm still thinking like, what am I going to do? How, what am I going to do? And, and, and before this, so my whole, my whole look at this whole thing of lymphoma is like, what does God want?

It's not what I want, but what does God want? If God wants me to take chemo, I'm more than willing to take chemo. But if God wants to take me home, then my thought is, my rationale is like, why would I spend a whole lot of money on chemo and trying to stay alive if God's going to take me home?

And some people didn't like it very well, but I said, "I, I know at no time did I pray for healing. I prayed for God's will." And other people told me like, "Well, you can pray for God's will if you want. We're going to pray for healing." I said, "That's fine for you." Okay. But I want to know what God wants. Why do I want to spend 50,000, 100,000, 200,000 on treatment if God's going to take me home?

Like, it seemed like, it seemed like a waste of God's finances. Okay. So, so I'm, I'm, I'm weighing this thing. Like, should I take this, should I take this treatment or, or what should I do? And God answered it for me. Right soon after that whole thing took place to the, the, uh, ear, nose, and throat doctor told me this.

I went to bed one night and the Lord told me in the night, it was not audible, but I don't know how it was, but he impressed him on my mind. He said, "Go ahead and take treatment. I will be with you."

I mean, it was just as clear. I got up the next morning and I was like, "Okay, I'm ready." I called the oncologist and said, "Like, okay, I'm ready for treatment." It's just, it's amazing. God answered that for me. Right about the same time, in this time when I was dealing with how I was going to do it, two events took place that I did not understand at the time, but I understand now that it was God telling me that it was going to be RA. Now, I'll have to admit that I didn't quite understand it. Okay?

An old minister in our southern district, Alan Straight, by name, he's passed on now. He came up to me one day and he says, "Arvin, I just want you to know that I don't think the Lord's through with you yet."

No explanation, no caveats, no nothing. Didn't tell me how he learned it. Just, that was it.

About the same time, I get, I got this call from Christian Light, called Christian Light Publications back then. They just call Christian Light now. From Leon Yoder. And Leon says, "Arvin, your name has been given to us to be a pastoral advisor for Christian Light."

And I, and I admit, I fully admit to what I am about to say. And I, and I thought, I was like, "God, what kind of a sick joke is this? I don't know whether I'm living or dying." And I get this call from Christian Light that wants me to be on their pastoral advisory.

Well, what that was, was a confirmation that I wasn't going anywhere soon.

So, so that's, you know, I, I talked to Leon about it and, and told him the situation and, uh, he said, "Fine." And so I accepted that position and I had that from 2006 or 2007 up until last year I resigned. So that was just something that, um, a verification that, that I would probably live for a while. Mm-hmm. So anyway, uh, that's how that happened. So then I started taking, I started taking treatment and, uh, treatment is not fun. Okay. I got to tell you, it's, it's, it's hard. I've taken a treatment, uh, every three weeks for six rounds.

So I would get a treatment. The first one didn't go well. Uh, my body was not used to the drugs. Didn't go well. At that time, I think it was taking like six hours to eight hours for an infusion. I was getting infusion. Mm-hmm. And, uh, so then I would be fine. I would get the infusion on a Monday. I would be fine until about Thursday. Thursday, I would get, um, nausea.

Not throw up necessarily, but just get nausea, like carsick, just sick for like from Thursday until about Sunday lunch. Mm-hmm. And then it would go away. You didn't want to eat, but you found out later on or during the whole process, you found out if you ate, you actually felt better than if you didn't eat. Mm-hmm. So anyway, that was, that was a, that was a six treatments of that. That lasted, that put that in God, put it in remission for about five years. Mm-hmm. So for five years, I lived a fairly normal life.

Um, started coming back. And the way I could tell it was coming back was the lymph nodes in my underarm. They would start swelling. It would, like right now you wouldn't feel anything. And after a while, they're this big. Okay. Mm-hmm. And so then you know that, okay, it's time to do something. So I, I called the doctor and I said, like, I, you know, I think it's time to take a look at this again.

Because I had taken a couple of appointments and then he's like, you don't have to come back for a while. So I said, I think we better start again. So he took a look at it again and said, yep, we need to take, give you treatment again. So another six rounds, three weeks apart. Mm-hmm. But by this time, you know, five years, 10 years, 15 years, I mean, the drugs change. I mean, new drugs come on the market, the old ones, which had more side effects go away, you know. Mm-hmm. And so probably only one of the three or four drugs that was in that soup, uh, was the same as the one before.

Mm-hmm. So took it, took it again. And, um, that lasted three years. Mm-hmm. And it started coming back again. I could, I could start feeling it. And so then he said, uh, you need to take some pills. I'm like, why can't I do this again? And like, it don't work the third time. He said, his time keeps getting shorter. It goes from five years to three years. And he said, you need to take pills the rest of your life.

So that's what I'm on now. That's, I, I take two pills, one in the morning, one in the evening. And the one batch of pills that I was taking lasted for a year and a half. And then I started getting some serious side effects.

And so we gave them up. And then, uh, he said, just quit taking anything. And he says, uh, what you need to do is, is drink grape juice, eat grapes, and take, uh, wine grape capsules. He said, uh, lymphoma doesn't like that.

He said, it might work. So I did that for a year. And then it started coming back. So now I'm on, I've been on pills ever since. Not too bad of side effects. Simply, um, it wrecks havoc with your white blood cells. Mm-hmm. And so consequently, uh, every two months, I get an IgG infusion, which is immunoglobin, to kind of keep my white blood cells up. Because if you don't, your immunity system goes right out the window. Mm-hmm.

So that's, that's the, that part of the story. Okay. Mm-hmm. That's, that's what I struggle with the, even knowing how to intelligently ask the question for lack of the vocabulary. But are these pills that you're taking keeping the cancer under control or in remission? In remission. Is that, that's what you're looking for? That's the term. And it's accomplishing that. Yes. Okay.

Okay. I feel certain if I quit taking the pills, it would come back. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I'll be taking them as long as I live, probably. Mm-hmm. Before I started taking any treatment at all, I, uh, my wife and I decided that we were going to fast. Mm-hmm. And, uh, well, I decided, and as she went along with me, we, we fasted for almost 10 days. And then I was anointed.

And, uh, that was a very, uh, moving experience. Mm-hmm. I would actually like to talk about anointing with oil a little bit. I have, I have, uh, very strong feelings about it. You know, the, the Bible, it, well, anointing with oil is, uh, one of the ordinances. I think it's an ordinance that is not getting used as much as it should. I know some churches hardly use it at all. They kind of use it as a last rite, almost like Catholics. But, um, I think, in our church specifically, we use it a fair amount. Okay.

I know of one lady, old widow lady, that, that she would have a serious ailment. And she asked for anointing. And she would be anointed. And it would go away. And then two years later, she'd have something completely different. And, uh, over the years that I was a minister, she was anointed three times. I was anointed twice.

Uh, the first time before I took chemo, and then the second time before I took chemo, the second time I, uh, asked for anointing again. That time, uh, well, the first time, normally, you know, you would call for anointing, and, and then the minister and the deacon comes to your house, and they have the service, and then they anoint you, and, and, uh, sing a couple of songs and go home. The second time I thought I would like to have it done at church after a service. I think it was a, was it prayer meeting? It was a prayer meeting.

Tuesday night prayer meeting. I said, after that, I would like to be anointed. Anybody that wants to stay can. And a few did. And they were blessed by it. Here's what I want to say about anointing. First of all, it's, you're supposed to ask for it. I had a, my cousin's husband was dying with cancer. Okay. Mm-hmm. And their church didn't use anointing with oil. And so I went and met him in the hospital. I said, like, have you been anointed? And he goes, no, my preachers didn't tell me I should be. I said, well, let me read something to you, you know? And so, so I read, I was like, if you're sick, call for the elders.

And, uh, well, no, the ministers never said anything about it. And so he's not going to do it. And he didn't. And he died. I, not that that had anything to do with it, but here's what I believe about anointing. Because it's commanded, I believe that there is going to be some kind of healing, either for the mind, give you peace, give you healing slow, give you healing fast, give you, uh, just give you calmness of soul.

Something's going to be healed. I am fully convinced of that, that the Bible says it, and I'm, I'm convinced that that's the way it's going to be. And I, and I believe it's something that has not been used as much as it should in the Anabaptist circles. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Thank you for that expectation. Yeah. I, I feel strongly about it. Mm-hmm. So you were anointed with oil twice. Twice, yes. Both towards the beginning of your journey with cancer, or how did that fit in with you? Well, clear, clear at the beginning. Um, even before, well, the oncologist wanted to, wanted to start treatment immediately. And I believe it was in the interim of that, that, that, that we fasted and, uh, prayed and was anointed. And then I went to the oncologist, and that's when there was no change. Mm-hmm.

So I believe that was a direct, a direct answer from the Lord and gave me more time. Okay. I know people don't normally get a lot of time, but some do. And the Lord gave me time to work through it. Mm-hmm.

I could imagine that in your experience with cancer, you could face temptations of unbelief or discouragement or feeling like you deserve better than what you're getting out of life or that maybe God is punishing you.

What kind of temptations did you experience and how did you resist or overcome them? Okay. So I, unless you're high, we have them listed there, but I did not believe God has punished me. Okay. Now I believe that if, if something like that happens to you, maybe you ought to do some soul searching to find out. But that's not my God. I, I don't believe my God isn't punishing me that way.

He allows Satan. I, I think, I think cancer, I think we can all agree with the cancer comes from Satan, not from God. And so I, I did not feel like the God was punishing me. And I did not feel like I deserve better than that because I'm like, who am I?

I'm nobody. Why, why should I get a special pass? You know, we're all going to have, we live in this veil of tears, as they call it, and, and we all have problems. And so who am I to say that I don't deserve it? You know, I don't think I do. I don't think, you know, I don't think he was punishing me. I don't think I deserve it. I guess if there's one thing that maybe, if I had, okay, I come from a family of stoics pretty much.

And we don't talk about our problems too much, which is, can be good or could be bad. Okay. At one point, I mean, you're in the middle of chemo, okay, and you're not feeling well. And you still got four treatments to go. And it's easy to get discouraged.

And I, I would admit there was at least one time I remember just breaking down and crying. And I'm guessing basically self-pity. But I have found so much. I, I really, really appreciate the book of Job. I'm telling you, that's just, that book and Job blesses me so much. Uh, and I, I feel like I want to be like Job when, when these things happen, you know, it's like, uh, in all this, Job's sin not or charge God foolishly.

I mean, that, that's just as so profound to me. Mm-hmm. And, uh, so yeah, the book of Job and, and then the other thing, you know, about not being discouraged is like, I, you can't, you can't put any kind of a price on having a church family. Mm-hmm. I, I feel sorry for these people who, first of all, feel like they don't need a church. They could go out there and have church by themselves. I feel so sorry for those people. I mean, I had a church family. I had people praying for me that told me they were praying for me and their children were praying for me. And that and my family, we, you know, we have a strong family.

We're, we're not fighting amongst ourselves. And that's, that's a blessing. And so all these things just help give you a, uh, a sense that people care. And that, that's very important. I think it's very important. I, uh, well, I still am. I'm getting, uh, infusions. And so I go, you know, what happens in, they put you in a pod, which has like six chairs in it. Okay. And they tell you to pick a chair. And so you pick a chair. And there's like five other people. And you know that they all have cancer or pretty much because they're, they're all getting infusions or this or that or, or getting their port flushed or something. Mm-hmm.

And, uh, I mean, some of these people just, uh, they just, they look hard. They look dejected. They have nobody. They, they don't have any hope in life. And yeah, there's a, sometimes there's a chaplain comes around and wants to pray with them or pray with me or whatever, which I, I normally allow them to, if, especially if it's a male, uh, I allow them to because like, hey, I can use all the prayers I can get, you know? But when I, when I see what I see when I'm sitting in that pod, you can't, I mean, it's priceless. It's totally priceless of what family and church means to me. Mm-hmm. To help you through it.

Mm-hmm. I mean, it's just absolutely, absolutely amazing. Mm-hmm. I want to get back to that, what you said about the presence and support of church for you and in the sense of how can a church care for a person well? That, that is something that I care about. But first I want to ask, how has your experience with cancer, the oncologist, the, the pain and the difficulty of living with cancer, how has this changed you? Okay, well, um, I'll use another little story. There's a friend of mine who, uh, always had a little, for as long as, pretty much as long as he, ever since he was married, had a little, they had a little church, like six families met together.

There were other churches around they could have attended, but they didn't. They just, they just did not. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, after many years, I'm, I'm looking in one of the periodicals and I see, I see that this couple's name is in there and they're joining this church, which is, you know, which is a church that, that I know about and would, would approve of, right? And, uh, so I called him up. Well, no, I talked to him. I met him one day and I said, tell me something. I said like, how, what, what changed that, uh, you are now joining a traditional church rather than trying to have home church by yourself?

He said, well, Arvin, it's like this. Some things that I used to think important were important, he said, I find out aren't. And some things that I think aren't important, I found out were. And that's exactly how I feel about it.

The, the, my first, the first blush, the first thing you do is like, okay, how are you going to take care of your wife? You know? Mm-hmm. And so she probably didn't even know it, but I got a new weed whip and I got a new, uh, blower so that they started easier, you know, rather than pulling, pulling, pulling the ones that we had. And some things like that, try to get your, get your house in order a little bit.

But then the whole thing is like, you just have a whole different perspective on life. I mean, I, I suppose I do. I think a lot about, um, I mean, not only because I'm older, but when, when you stare death in the face, or you think you stare, stare death in the face, it, it, it gives you a insight that, that you never, you never had before.

And, uh, so that's how it changed. I, I think I'm, you have to ask my wife. I think I'm a better person because of it.

But, uh, definitely less, uh, assertive, I guess you would say, being sure of yourself. If there's anything that disturbs me is when I hear somebody with cancer saying like, yep, I beat it. No, you didn't. No, you didn't.

You thought by sheer willpower, and there are people who believe that, like, we're going to get through this. We're going to, we're going to do what has to do and we're going to beat it. Well, some do beat it. But I'm telling you, as far as I'm concerned, you don't beat cancer.

God beats cancer. Okay. Mm-hmm. And for you to, to be a person who says that I beat cancer, it's just, it just to me, it's just like off the charts. That's just, that's an asinine. And so now, you know, I guess the one thing that changes is you just, you just know and feel that every day is in God's hands. People ask me, it's like, well, how do you deal with cancer? I tell them, I deal with cancer the same way you deal with every day, one day at a time. That's, it's all you can do. Mm-hmm. You don't know what tomorrow holds.

Hmm. Yeah, that's, that's a good perspective. Before we began the conversation, you were telling me that you have things to say about oncologists. I do. Um, and I've already said a little bit about oncologists, how they work on statistics. Mm-hmm. And not only oncologists, uh, in, in, in general, but, um, it's, it's just that I'm a, I'm a person who believes that a physician and a, a person ought to be able to, to understand each other. Okay.

And you, you see a doctor for the first time and I'll just use the term, you don't like him. Okay. You are not obligated to keep him unless you're way out in the woods somewhere and he's the only doctor available. I mean, I think probably three times in my life, I, uh, changed doctors because I, I just didn't feel like we were connecting. I didn't feel like, or the one, I just felt like he was in it for the money. Like he, he didn't really care about me as a patient. He, he just cared about his practice, I guess you would say. Mm-hmm. And so you got to take, and it's easier for some people to say than others, but you got to take control a little bit yourself.

Mm-hmm. Um, they're not God and they're fallible. And so you just need to, you just need to go with something that you feel good about. Mm-hmm. And of, yeah. And that's doctors in general. That's not, that's not necessarily oncologists per se. Yeah.

Well, that's helpful perspective. They're flawed like we are and they don't have us in prison. We can, no, no, we can move on. I did want to say, uh, something about just cancer, you know, you, you, you were talking about, uh, God punishing you. Okay. I don't, I don't believe that in the case of a dedicated Christian, God is punishing you. I, I don't believe that. I mean, it's well documented that some cancers come from lifestyle. Some kind of cancers come from, uh, smoking.

Um, skin cancer comes from overexposure to ultraviolet light. And so there, there is, you're not going to be able to always say like, well, I should have done this and I wouldn't have got cancer. What did Job's boils come from? Did, did they come from an imbalanced diet? Did they come from a failure to take the right vitamins? Did it come from, uh, eating too much red meat?

Mm-hmm. They came from Satan. Mm-hmm. And I think that's what Satan uses that. And like we were talking about the different things that emotions we go through when we're diagnosed with cancer. But the ultimate, I think, is for Satan wants us to curse God and die. Just like, you know, Job's wife wasn't any help at all. She really wasn't in this, in this case. She just cursed God and died. And that's really, I mean, that's actually what the whole thing was between God and Satan. Mm-hmm. Satan says, well, the only reason that Job serves you is because, um, you got to hang around him. God says, okay.

And Satan verily hoped, hope upon hope that Job would curse God and die. That's really what he had hoped. Mm-hmm. So I have a girl cousin that died with lung cancer. And I can guarantee you she never smoked a cigarette in her life. You know, how, how does a 50-year-old woman get lung cancer? Who knows? I mean, she died from it.

So, um, I asked the question, why do people get cancer? Mm-hmm. And I have four reasons that people get cancer. And, and, and these are reasons for God-fearing people, basically. Mm-hmm. The first one is a means to take us whole.

We're all going to go home. We're going to die from something. The only people that didn't die was, uh, Enoch and Elijah. Yeah, Enoch and Elijah. That's the only two that, that didn't, that didn't die. Everybody else died and we're going to die.

And so when it's time, God's going to take you home. And actually, I believe in some cases, um, it can even be an advantage. You don't think cancer is an advantage, but I'll get to that. But, um, yeah, we're going to go home somehow. And, and some people die from COVID. Some people die from cancer. Some people die from car accidents and whatever. The second reason I think is, is, is a, a refining fire. Mm-hmm. And I found that to be true in my own life. Uh, it'll change you. And I, and I've told you that when you, when you stare death and the fragility of life in the face, I mean, it does something to you.

Mm-hmm. It makes you, uh, regroup. It makes, it makes you get your priorities in order. Um, my doctor, my oncologist, I said, uh, so when, if I don't take any treatment at all, like, how long do I live? 18 months.

Mm-hmm. So that's kind of jerks your chain a bit. Yeah, I imagine. So it, it has a way of concentrating the mind, I guess you could say. And, and I've told you, you know, things that seemed important weren't, and things that didn't seem important were.

Uh, a third reason that I think people get cancer is to give them time to make peace with God. I'm a hundred, a hundred percent convinced there's people in heaven, going to be in heaven, who wouldn't have been there if they wouldn't have got cancer.

Now you can chew on that one for a while, but I, I really believe that. I mean, so, you know, even fast-moving cancer would normally give a person a chance to make some wrongs, right? Um, I, different times I've, I've talked to people who were, knew they were dying. I, I knew they were dying. Everybody knew they were dying. And, and I went to visit them. I said, like, so is everything right between you and the Lord?

And he said, yeah, yeah, I kind of think so. But the, the one, the one case I found out that he did make a phone call to somebody to make sure that everything was all right. Mm-hmm. Okay. See, fatal accidents don't allow that. And so I, I think in one case of the, one sense of the word, it's the mercy of God that allows a time for reflection, a time to get right, a time for repentance if needed be, and, uh, a time to, uh, think about heaven. Mm-hmm. You, you, you probably wouldn't have thought about before. The fourth one, and I think I feel very strongly about this too, is that if you can handle this thing that you're going through with grace, with Christian grace, it's an encouragement to other people.

Both my brother and I have similar types of cancer. He, his was diagnosed long after mine, uh, but we have similar. I have small B cell lymphoma. He has CLL, which is very similar. It's the same. They're sisters, they're cancers.

And, uh, so, you know, we, we regularly talk to each other and, and how, how's it going and all that. I've heard different people say, like, when they're diagnosed with cancer, I say, hey, if they can do it, we can do it.

Mm-hmm. And I just, I know this friend of mine who didn't have cancer, but he just spent 12 weeks in the hospital with all sorts of things. And I actually thought he was going to die a couple of times, but he didn't. Okay.

And I told him, and, and he is just so thankful. I mean, he's like, you know, God is good. And every time I talk to him, he's upbeat and he's talking about how good God is. And I go, I say, you, God saved you to be an example to people of, of how to live in the case, in the, in the presence of adversity.

I said, don't, don't forget that. Um, I have been able to, to minister to people. At one time I was calling my brother, my brother-in-law, another friend, and an in-law, or, or a, a friend's in-law, cancer. I was calling them, you know, every week, like, hey, how's it going? How's it going? You know? And, uh, yeah.

You mentioned with great appreciation, uh, the presence of your church during your experience with cancer. Right. So I'm curious if you have advice for a church or for people in a church who have fellow members who are suffering from cancer. How can we support people who were going through an experience like you?

For people who are standing by. Mm-hmm. First of all, I'll tell you some things not to do. The first thing not to do, and I know that you're concerned with a person who has cancer, but the thing you don't do is offer medical advice. Do not offer medical advice.

They have spent days or weeks trying to find their way through this thing. Okay. Mm-hmm. They talked to their family. They talked to the oncologist. They did research and the information that they have now and the best of their ability to make a judgment call of how they're going to go through with this. And they make a decision and then it's their decision. And for a person to come by and say like, oh, you should never have done that, is not helpful at all.

I never say you should have done this or that. Never say you shouldn't have taken chemo. I mean, there are people who believe that you don't take chemo and I, and that's fine. If they don't want to take chemo, they don't have to take chemo. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. But if that's the path that we decided, then who are you to tell us, don't do it?

Mm-hmm. I mean, you tell me that I'm not supposed to take chemo and I'm already three treatments in. What am I supposed to do? Jerk my port out and call a doctor and tell him to cancel all freaking treatment just because you told me that? No, you're not going to. And so just keep your thoughts to yourself. Um, that type of thoughts. Now there are things you can say. Your untimely advice is not welcome. It really isn't. My, oh my, my, uh, fellow pastor, uh, passed away with geoblastoma, brain cancer. Hmm. And his wife got so much advice from people from all over the place that they could get them this and they could get them that and they could do this for them and you ought to do this.

And like, it's too late. Okay. Mm-hmm. And if someone would tell me that, I would probably, if I wasn't in a good humor, I would probably, if, if I was in a good humor, I'd probably pass them off. But if I was not in a good humor, I'd probably say, hey, when you get cancer and you get my kind of cancer, you are welcome to treat it any way you want. And I will bless you for it.

So that's what you don't do. Okay. Wisdom. That's wisdom. Yes. Uh, the old adage, don't judge somebody till you walk them out on their shoes. I think it's very pertinent in this case. Um, Paul says in, uh, 1 Corinthians 9:22, to the weak I became weak, that I may gain the weak. I have made all things to all men that I may may by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake that I may be partaker thereof with you.

And, uh, early, early on, I was given a, uh, poem to me by someone who was dealing with cancer. And, and some lady had, uh, gave this poem to her and she gave it to me. And I find it very pertinent. And I would just like to go down through it, if you don't mind. That would be wonderful. It is titled Comforters When I Was Diagnosed with Cancer. And it was written by Linda Mae Richardson.