I Started a Business in Greece to Help Refugees Begin a New Life

Often left to its own, let's say, just natural outcome in Greece, it's often 10 to 20 years before refugees, uh, let's say, become an active part and contributor in the community and society. One to two decades. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And many times, maybe not even until they're children, actually. And they're going to Greek school, and they actually kind of have that next level of integration.

So this is a big, I guess, driving factor also in providing jobs and employment and a stable environment that it can bring this 10 to 20 year period down to two or three years, actually.

So, Randall, you've lived in a cross-cultural setting for a number of years with, uh, you and your family. Tell me about that. Like, where do you live and what do you do? Uh, set some, some frameworks for us as we go into the conversation today. Yeah. So my name is Randall Graber, um, and we live in Lesvos, Greece, with my wife, Althea, and we have two children, Alexander and Lucas, five and two. Um, we have lived in Greece now about eight years, um, nearing eight years. And we are there working with refugees and migrants, um, which are coming from all over the Middle East and all over Africa, many countries in Africa, many countries in the Middle East.

So it's a very culturally diverse, uh, situation we find ourselves in. And, uh, so we, we partner with an organization. We've been partnering with an organization, um, just trying to find ways to help them, support them, especially when it comes to the integration of the refugees after the refugee camp.

Um, there is tremendous needs, uh, both, um, just in the refugee community. Um, after they leave the camp, there really is not much support for them. Generally, the government will, you know, take away all support, all financial support, as soon as they have their, uh, asylum.

And then they're kind of just out on the street. And they, they, they purposely really have no programs or organization to help them after the camps. And so they do that kind of to encourage them to leave Greece is, is, is what my perspective is on it.

Um, but there is a percentage of refugees who, uh, either choose to stay or were forced to stay because of paperwork reasons, um, or they found a life and, and they're trying to make it work there. Um, so I guess our focus and the work we're doing there with integrational, uh, projects is focusing kind of in on this community, the smaller community of refugees that has either chosen to stay or been forced, uh, to stay. So, yeah, that's, that's, uh, what we're doing in Lesvos. Wow. Like, what you're describing is so many cultures coming together into one place. It that at least initially had to feel very disorienting, right? So you're from America, right? Moving to Greece.

So you already have a cross-cultural element there. But then you're working with these migrants, refugees, et cetera, from all over the place, essentially. I mean, you may have however many different countries are represented there. Like, how hard was that to move your family into a situation like that? And yeah, talk, yeah, talk to me about that process. Yeah, it, it is a unique environment. And the diversity of cultures is, in many ways, both a blessing and a curse. Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, it, it is rich with diversity, languages, different foods. And that is actually one of our, uh, it's one of the big blessings about the work is we get to immerse ourselves and find ourselves interacting with all these different cultures, different foods. We've really learned to appreciate foods from all over the world that we never would have tasted otherwise. So there's many rich blessings, uh, that, uh, come from this diversity. At the same time, uh, many challenges, uh, equally as many challenges. I think, you know, it's easy to find relational ministry difficult enough within a culture that speaks the same language, maybe even grew up in the same, uh, village. So, like, you understand nuance in culture and society much deeper.

Mm-hmm. Uh, so you imagine these difficulties that we face at home in our communities and churches and then add, you know, five, six, ten languages and cultures. Um, it is, it is very challenging. It is very challenging. Um, and oftentimes difficult. But, you know, God's grace is enough. And, uh, thankfully, he's given us the, the, the strength to, uh, continue striving to, to find ways to, to help. Yeah. Well, but like integrating into that kind of environment, but I mean, that must have taken a long time, right? Like, because you, you don't know the local language when you arrive, you know, you're all the local customs and the paperwork and all this stuff. I mean, you must have really believed in this to press through that, right?

Yeah. You know, it's only, you know, thankfully, looking back on our journey, uh, to Greece, um, we've been there now near eight years. Um, and there has been many difficult times, many difficult times and learning the language. Um, I am able to speak Greek, communicate in Greek. So that is very helpful. Um, but also many of the refugees coming, uh, maybe don't speak English or Greek as well too. So language and communication is often a big difficulty. But going back to, I guess, uh, what has kept us in Greece, uh, we, we, we have had the unique privilege, I think, of, in many ways, of a very clear calling in, in our own lives and why we went to Greece.

It's kind of a long story. I'll, I'll, I'll try to keep it as, uh, brief as possible. But, uh, so after we were married, we were married about a year. We had some friends who had, uh, served in Greece. And so, uh, my wife and I were like, you know what, let's, let's go visit for three months. Let's serve. Let's help these refugees.

And, uh, it really was a wonderful experience. Uh, we enjoyed it. Very intense environment. Um, and, you know, you realize you see lots of needs. Um, but we really had no plans to, to come back. Um, but interestingly enough, in those, uh, three months we were there, we also met Dean Taylors, good friend, uh, still to this day, brother, uh, in Christ. Um, and he really had a vision for just, uh, starting a work, uh, with, uh, a bit more of a permanent mindset, a little different focus on, uh, longevity and, and working with the migrants in more of an integrational way outside of the, outside of the camp setting. Mm-hmm. So anyway, so he had, it's kind of a long story, but he had been, uh, working on this vision and going to different, uh, organizations trying to get support for starting the work there.

And this one organization came on board with it and was supportive of it. And so he was asking us, uh, and my wife saying, when are you going to be ready to come to Greece? We want you to come to Greece. We want you to come to Greece. And I kind of just kept shutting it down. You know, I was not really, uh, interested in entertaining this wild idea of actually moving my family to Greece. Wow. I can imagine Dean saying that, by the way. He's, yeah, interviewed him and, and things. Uh, yeah. Okay. So that was a connection point then. Like it, you actually had someone asking you, like telling you, here's a need, here's, here's something you could do.

But anyways, continue. Yeah. So, so, you know, our minds were starting to wander, you know, um, you know, this is a possibility. There is a need. But really in my heart, I wasn't at all entertaining the idea. Mm-hmm. I remember telling my wife, if God wants us to go, he'll show us clearly. Um, so this went on for a couple of months and he was asking us to go. And so now we find ourselves, I think it was like two or three weeks before a Muslim impact conference, uh, that Christos was organized there in Lancaster.

This would have been maybe 2015 or '16. I'm actually not sure. And, uh, so two weeks before this event, you know, my wife and I were just talking, having a lot of conversations and knowing when we go to this event, we know Dean is going to corner us and ask us to go to Greece. So we kind of had this dread in our hearts. We, we felt this impending, uh, questioning. And it's like, you know, we, in our hearts, we're like, you know, we have no legitimate reason to say no other than really selfish reasons. Like, nah, we don't really feel called or we're not interested.

So about one week or two weeks before, uh, I had something that happened to me that really spoke deeply to me and, and, and fairly clearly. In the middle of the night, one night, I woke up and someone was tapping me on my back.

It was very surreal. I woke up. I didn't see anyone. My wife was peacefully sleeping, facing the other direction. Um, and it was a very peaceful feeling in my heart. I didn't feel afraid. And my mind instantly went to the story of Samuel.

And I was wondering, hmm, this really feels like maybe God is trying to get my attention. And so, you know, I don't even think I, I told my wife that next morning I was really just in such deep processing and in denial, like, no, that didn't happen. No, that didn't happen. No, that didn't happen. And then the next night, I again, I had a very clear vision, um, that happened. And in this vision, I was very afraid. I was running away from something.

Uh, and there was this, uh, pack of lions. Um, and as I was running, I realized, wait a minute, they're not chasing me. They're actually around me, protecting me. And, uh, this just really spoke deeply to me. And it felt very clearly from God that only fear was keeping me back and that God is with us and God will protect us anyway. So, uh, long story short, you know, I, I, I shared that with my wife and we just, we also shared it with some family, um, to get people's, uh, perspectives on the matter and to see, you know, trying to process this, you know, thing that happened in our lives. And then about a week or two later, we went to the conference and sure enough, we were cornered.

Dean, uh, said, okay, we're going to Greece. We want you to come with us. And I think it was literally the next day we said we will go. Wow. Because our hearts, God had been preparing us up until this moment. So looking back at our eight years there in difficult times, you know, this clear calling that God did place on our life has been very reassuring.

Uh, in times of difficulty, it's like, you know what, God called us here for a reason. You know, whether it's to, to refine me or to, you know, be of service in his work and his kingdom, you know, this is, uh, God's work, you know. And, and so we trust that God has a plan and that we're still trying to be faithful to his calling. And, uh, he hasn't spoke to us to return. So we are still, uh, investing ourselves there, uh, in the work. Yeah. That's something that with these kinds of stories, it's not like there was some mathematical equation. You went through it. It was like, okay, this, this, okay. Yeah. We should go.

Right. This, this is my nature. This is my nature. I'm very logical. I like to think things through. So, yeah, yeah. That's, that's really interesting though. Like God uses such a variety of ways to get through to us. I mean, you know, Jonah took getting swallowed by a fish, you know. And so like, it's just almost like God's really creative sometimes, I guess. I don't, I don't, I don't even know where to go with that. It's, it's, um, perhaps the lesson there is you were willing to pay attention to it though. 'Cause like how many people may have that and just write it off. It's like, oh, that would, that never happened. And, you know, never actually follow up on that.

And you did something with that, you know. Yes. God, God gives us strength, you know. Uh, we have many times in times of difficulty that we just surrender ourselves and the work to God's hands. And like, he gives us the strength. There is a strength there that I think he wants to give us. Yeah. Yeah.

So you moved your family to Greece. You've been there for a while now and integrating into that culture, that setting. Now let's look a little bit at what you're doing while you're there. So what is your approach to working with refugees and migrants? Like this is super complicated. Okay. I mean, the current refugee crisis, I think it's, it's tapered off now, but especially like 2015, you know, um, and those years because of the war in Syria and with ISIS and things like that, it was the largest refugee crisis since World War II or something to that effect. It's just the scale was incredible.

And it is really complicated working with people who don't have a country necessarily. And like, what do you do? I mean, I guess to, to use really broad terminology. And what are common mistakes you see that people are like, oh, we want to go help refugees or something, whatever.

But yet it can be very ineffective if we do it wrong. Right. And so talk to me about that. Yes. Uh, that is, you know, I think something today where we ourselves and myself, I still have many questions and, uh, I don't know the answers to them. Um, but you know, you find things over the years that work and don't work. Um, and often it takes also God's work in our own lives to like, I know in my own life, uh, you know, I had many aspirations and ideals, you know, we're, you know, we, I have so much to offer and help, you know, coming from America or, you know, whatever our things may be in our mind, you know, we come from a very organized culture.

It's a very peaceful generally, uh, situation there. And so we can feel like we have so much to offer to the situation. But then you get in the situations and wow, like sooner or later you come to the reality that you don't have the answers in many ways.

Um, so it really, in a lot of ways, I think, you know, we have more questions than answers. But what does really, you know, I think the biggest thing is to, first of all, allow God to work in my own life. And through that restoration, we become more loving, uh, people and able to stand on truth. And at the end of the day, it's relationships that form with these refugees and interaction that we're able to show true love. Um, I think sometimes in my own life, it can be very easy to show a, what we feel like is love in our mind. We like, uh, convince ourselves this is the, the love that we should show.

But often it's in my own life, sometimes it wasn't from my heart. And, and eventually you run out of this strength. And I would say two common, let's say problems I've observed both in my own life and common for people working with migrants is you can come into it with this mindset, kind of a bit of a savior mindset maybe, where it feels like you're there to fix these people's problems. And then you realize your need or your inability to fix these problems. And it can make you just a very cynical person maybe, because you, in a lot of ways, I've just, you've been crushed. You had these high expectations of what is helping.

Yeah. And you know, over a period of time, and it often takes a period of one year, three years for some of these deep realities to start creeping in. Like, wait a minute, what are we doing? How are we helping? And if you, uh, it can lead to cynicism. And I think this is something I've struggled with and I have to battle against sometimes.

The opposite, uh, ditch as well, or problem that can happen is especially for very caring people, compassionate people. And there's, there's a need for compassion. It's compassion why we go in the first place. Um, but it can be very overwhelming, the needs. And so if we have a deep sensitivity or compassion, we can also become crushed by the hurts, the difficult situations we face, which can also lead to burnout and just discouragement and disillusionment. So yeah, that is kind of, I think, one common outcome that can happen. And the other is also to survive, we can build walls. We can become very calloused to the hurting, to the pain, to the struggles.

And it's, uh, it's really a daily, weekly, monthly, uh, tension, you know, in our lives to like try to keep a correct balance. And the only way in my own life that, uh, I can restore balance is by spending time at the well, spending time with God's word. Mm-hmm. And I, I often encouraged by Jesus' ministry, you know, how he ministered, uh, as well. He would, you know, full investment into the needs. He was present. He was caring deeply in any way that he could. But, you know, very soon after, he would suddenly disappear and he would withdraw. And he was spending time with the Father. And so for me, over the years, this has become, uh, a deep, uh, I guess, uh, deeper understanding in my own life, my own need for this same realization of our own need and our own inabilities.

Mm-hmm. And that, you know, if I'm feeling these burnout or building walls that at the end of the day, I need to spend more time with the Father. Um, so I don't know, uh, if this is helpful or not, but to me, this has been helpful. So I, I, uh, interviewed Merle Burkholder, uh, I think it was last year, and he did a session on burnout and ministry. And he's been in ministry for 40 something years. Wow. And I wish I could remember the title of the book. I'd have to go back and look at the episode. It's in the show notes on that one. Um, but it was this short book on the life of Jesus and how he did ministry.

And one of the points Merle made in that video is like, you read the accounts of Jesus, he's doing his ministry, all this, you never get the sense he's in a rush or in a hurry. He's like going along, you know, ministering, and then he gets interrupted.

And, and it's like, okay, and he cares for that person. And then this and this, and he takes time to be alone, to pray, all of this. And I was like, whoa, that really struck me as, because I've been working in the nonprofit world for, for, yeah, about eight years and as well. And you often can see that sense of this urgency. We have to do this, gotta fix this, you know, and just rush, rush, rush, rush. And, and then, yeah, I can overextend and crash and burn, so to speak, because it feels like the motive is almost more out of franticness than it is. Like you're saying something deeper. That's way oversimplified, but it resonated with me.

And I've been thinking about it a lot ever since. Anyways, comment on that. Yeah. It's, yeah, you know, I, I, I exactly, I think that's well said. Our own view of how to help and minister often is what gets in our own way, I think. And it's like, you know, only the work of the Lord through us will actually minister. And there's really no part of it, part of that, that includes our, you know, ourselves. We're a channel, uh, that God can work through. So I think honestly, in a lot of ways, it's finding ways to kind of eliminate my own selfishnesses, my own ideals, my own plans. Hmm. I mean, yeah, I don't know, you know, and I don't have the answers per se.

Yeah. But, uh, it has been helpful, uh, in just ministry there in, in helping to recognize my own need. Yeah. Uh, to, to spend time with the Father and my own inabilities and the sovereignty of God that in these difficult situations, he is there with or without me. 'Cause that's not a justification to not be present, but also a, I think, a place of humility and recognizing God is in every situation. And it doesn't require my idea of needing to insert myself to fix or help. But yet God uses us in these situations. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. It makes you think. And, and you know, that's something maybe we can encourage people is like, go back and look at the life of Jesus.

Now he did ministry. Uh, 'cause so often, oh, we're here to minister, we're here to minister, but yet the focus can still be on ourselves. Uh, maybe even very subtly. Yeah, subtly. Yeah, subtly or subconsciously. You don't even realize, you know, that it's there. Anyways, I, it's something I've been thinking about a lot ever since I did that interview with, with Merle. Um, yeah. Well, so let's get it, let's get it much more practical. It's one of the things you, you have been doing, um, with working with these people and, and reaching out there, uh, is this Olive Wood project, which I don't know anything about that at all. So tell me a little bit about what that is, how that fits into this concept of, of ministry, how it fits with, um, the refugee population that you're describing that, that's there in Greece.

Um, yeah, tell me about that. Yeah. Thank you for asking. It's, uh, a passion of mine. I've, I, I grew up in a family of kind of business-minded people. Uh, my father was very practical, very gifted with business. My, most of my brothers were as well. So it's, it's an environment I grew up in, entrepreneurship, business. So it is a passion of mine, uh, in, in working with the migrants in bringing business into the picture and how it can help, uh, provide a more sustainable, uh, platform for ministry and also, uh, community. I, I, I think it's very instrumental. And one scripture that, uh, really is helpful to me and has been an inspiration to me is First John 3.

But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? And then the second verse, 18, little children, let us not love in word or, or talk, but in deed and truth. Hmm. So for me, this has been a big inspiration. And, and, and maybe it also coincides with some of my practical giftings that God has given me, the, the, the what is, uh, deed and truth. Um, so I, you know, in, in, in this situation, I feel, uh, you know, coming alongside and working, bringing business into the picture, it really helps put our love into a form which is visible.

Mm-hmm. And in my mind, this is maybe one of the ways that deed and truth can be fleshed out in missions. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, so we have this Olive Wood project. Um, it's a place of employment where refugees can come and work. They're learning new skills. They're also learning the local language, uh, Greece, which is very instrumental for their longevity in staying and just for their dignity and being able to feel like a local, uh, like a contributor to the community and to the society. The Greek culture is generally a bit distrusting and hesitant to accept foreigners.

Okay. Except for tourists, because tourists bring money into the economy. Mm-hmm. But when it comes to the migrants and refugees, they're generally, it's, they don't appreciate them. But, and also for us as NGO workers, charity workers, Mm-hmm, they generally don't really appreciate us either. Mm-hmm. But when we put an effort in speaking Greek and starting to speak Greek, like their true hospitable roots start to show themselves and they become very welcoming. They become very kind. Mm-hmm. And this is often game changing for these migrants and refugees as well, because they're used to being treated very awfully. They don't feel welcome. Mm-hmm. Um, they're very mistreated in many ways. But when they eventually start grasping some of the Greek and speaking, their interactions change 180 degrees.

Their, their interactions change and they start thinking, whoa, I have friends. You know, I have this friend, I have this friend. And, uh, so this, uh, business environment is very helpful because these changes take time. Mm-hmm. This, both the language and understanding the local culture, you know, it takes years.

Um, often left to its own, let's say, just natural outcome in Greece. It's often 10 to 20 years before refugees, uh, let's say, become an active part and contributor in the community and, uh, society. One to two decades. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And, and many times maybe not even until they're children, actually. And they're going to Greek school and they actually kind of, um, have that next level of integration.

So this is a big, I guess, uh, driving factor also in providing jobs and employment and a stable environment that it can bring this, uh, 10 to 20 year period down to two or three years, actually. Um, you know, not always, you know, every, every situation has its uniqueness. Wow. But it dramatically helps in providing stability, providing income. Um, they're able to keep their hands busy. It builds dignity in their own lives that has been really stripped from them as, uh, living as refugees. You, you, you, you know, you, you learn to survive by taking everything but from people, or people are giving things to them. Mm-hmm. And it really, it slowly takes away your dignity because you, you, you forget that you to how to provide for your family as, as a worker, as a contributor in the economy and society. 'Cause many of these refugees are in the, uh, system for years, you know, maybe one year, maybe six years, maybe 10 years.

Whoo. Where they've just been a recipient of aid and help and assistance, and they've become very dependent on the system. And it's, it's, it really strips away their dignity and ability and even mindset of what it takes to really provide for themselves as a, as a person in a, in a standard, uh, let's say, setting, community setting. Because when you're in a, in a, in a system, so to speak, or in a refugee camp or something, it almost, you're almost down to like a number on, on, on a food distribution chart or something. Yeah. 001, 002. Yeah. Here's your bag of food, which is, to be clear, I mean, there's all, there's a need for that.

Yes. Maybe initially. Yes. But if that goes on forever, Mm-hmm. you know, you're describing something very different, which is, hey, let's get you integrated into a local community where you, you have interaction with your neighbors. You're starting to build friendships. Yeah. Oh, I think anybody listening to this would, oh, I mean, yeah, absolutely. Who, who of us wouldn't want that? You know, we all want that, you know, in some way or shape or form. What you're describing is this whole concept in some ways, at least of business as ministry or as a way of reaching people, but yet it's a little different, but it's kind of this idea you're, you're building a platform for which they can start almost reconstructing a life again.

Mm-hmm. Is, is that a fair way of saying it? Yeah. I think that is a fair way of saying it. You know, we want to do what God has, we want to share really what God has given us and the resources I have been given. I, I, I want to do my responsibility in making available in ways that they can be helpful to these refugees who are starting at zero. You know, they don't have access, uh, to the many networks and supporters and, uh, programs that I do as an American or as an Anabaptist, uh, from the States.

So yeah, we want to give them the tools that they can have at their disposal to, to help, you know. Um, it can be very challenging and difficult, you know, the transition from this, let's say, crisis mindset where you're just receiving food bags to transitioning to, oh, I can provide for my family. You know, it, it is fraught with perils and, and you mix it with cross-cultural differences, cultural differences, language differences, um, you know, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and just generally communication.

Um, you know, you start mixing, uh, money or, uh, employment into the picture. Um, it can be very challenging. Uh, and it is, it is very challenging. Um, but to anyone listening and maybe interested in this model, my encouragement would be give it five years of hard work and effort and sacrifice. And things start to, you, you start to see a bigger picture, at least for me. And five years from now, I'll, I'll look, you know, 10 years from now, look back where I'm today and maybe, you know, see things completely different or in an even bigger picture. But with time, you start to see the seeds that were planted through some of those difficulties, maybe even through some of the misunderstandings.

And four and five years later in some of these people's lives, they look back on those times very fondly. Mm-hmm. And the lessons and disciplines and tools that were at their disposal, um, you know, just a small example, we actually, uh, two men who, uh, first, uh, joined our, this was before the Olive Wood project. We had a, we have, we still have an agricultural project. Ah. And, uh, two Iranian refugees joined. They were the first two actually in the project. And they, I believe it was about four or maybe six months. I'm not exactly sure how long they were, uh, working there on the farm. And there were some misunderstandings, uh, some typical misunderstandings, miscommunications.

And one of them left kind of, uh, let's say with, uh, on a bad note, he was a bit bitter, uh, experiencing some bitterness in his life. And it really was complicating the relationship. And so he left and his friend also went with him. And they went to, uh, UK, Mm-hmm, where they've lived the past five years. And interestingly enough, they are now moving back to Lesvos, Greece, because of some of these actually fond memories and the community they experienced. Interesting. And so it's like when you kind of, you know, I don't know what the future holds there. I, I'm sure, you know, there's many, uh, potential complications to their hopeful, uh, idea of integrating back into the community.

That's their plan. That's their desire. Wow. Um, but you, you, you start to see things in a little different light with more time. So that would be my encouragement. Give it time, give it effort. I think with time you start to see, uh, some real, uh, lives, lives that have been changed in a, in a positive way. Mm-hmm. So starting a business is always a challenge anyways. And you're doing this in, in another country. That had to, that had to have been really complicated. Like you must have, did, was it, you just really believed that, that I think this could work or I, I can't imagine 'cause I mean the paperwork, you're working with a different language, you're working in a different government system.

Like how did, what was that like? I mean, why did you make this leap, I guess? Yes. It's a, it's, it's, it's been a journey. We ourselves have been on the, the seven, eight years we've been there. Um, I've, like I said, I have always had a passion for business, Mm-hmm, entrepreneurship, um, kind of pioneering. It has always just kind of been my natural, uh, instincts and giftings, I think in many ways. Mm-hmm. So really it's been a journey and, and, and you know, I don't know, you know, three years from now, looking back on this, uh, current endeavor of privatizing the Lesvos Woodcraft, Lesvos Woodcraft is the name of the Olive Wood project, uh, that I'm in the process of privatizing.

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and starting, uh, manufacturing, uh, there in Lesvos, Greece. Mm-hmm. We've been selling olive wood utensils and, and the olive wood products from Lesvos Woodcraft now for about a year and a half, all across the United States. Um, but I'm also right now in transition to also starting a new workshop in Lesvos, Greece, which will be my own private business in an effort to expand both the scope of the ministry, Mm-hmm, and also personally for ourselves in an effort to, uh, what I feel like is a more sustainable long-term lifestyle in that our own family support is based on the local realities of business, the same realities that we are and the same expectations that we are putting on the refugees to integrate.

In many ways, it feels like, wow, so like here's an opportunity. Yeah. To really experience, Mm-hmm, the exact same expectations and hopes that we have for them to integrate into. And in many ways, uh, it's been, I think, very helpful in my relationships with them as well too, just showing my own commitment. Yeah. To what we've been saying for years. Wow. Um, so yeah, it's, it is very challenging. Business in Greece is, is very challenging. The taxes and unemployment rates are very high. Um, it's the laws work very different. It's generally an Eastern mindset. It's more about relationships and how you, uh, honor the relationships rather than the laws so much. Uh, so this has been a big, uh, change and I've, I've probably become more Eastern, uh, which would potentially be offensive to some of my American friends.

If they, uh, you know, in, in, in some business interactions maybe. Um, but it's just a different reality. You know, in America, we have the speed limit. Yeah. Dilemma, you know, you have the speed limit and then you have what everyone goes and where the police will enforce it, you know, and generally seven or 10 miles an hour faster than the stated speed limit. Mm-hmm. In Greece, I don't know if there's any law that is even this clear.

The laws generally are even more ambiguous and difficult to like live by. And the reality of what the general person and business person is doing is much farther from the law than five or 10 miles an hour. So it's a very challenging legal environment too. Oh, there you go. I don't know what the future holds there, but we're just taking steps in faith. Okay. I can imagine that would take a while to get used to or untangle. Yeah. So you've already touched on this, maybe on the peripheries of this, but I, but I wanna dig into this, this concept a bit more. And that is, how would you challenge our Anabaptist people to think differently about work, business, economics?

So that's the challenge side. But then also, what are the strengths our people bring to those things as well? Uh, especially 'cause you're doing this cross-culturally, uh, you're doing this with a very express purpose of platform for reintegrating people into community or integrating them into communities and, um, for ministry and so forth. So you have both the challenges and, and the strengths that our people have for this. And I'd love to hear you talk about that. Speaking about the strengths of the Anabaptists, you know, in many ways, I think these fine woodworking pieces really sum up maybe some of the traditional strengths of the Anabaptists, their value for working with your hands, um, blue collar jobs.

And this, so the, so these are actually some of the olive wood utensils that we're making in Greece. I brought a few here to show you. Mm-hmm. Um, this is not all of them. We make more. But I really think the Anabaptist culture and tradition and strengths really, uh, do well with their work ethic. Really, number one, I think the work ethic of the Anabaptists is a wonderful thing to share with the world and a strength that the Anabaptists bring and their value and ability to create value within a community by, you know, making goods or whatever it may be, um, in the community. So this is one element of, I think, the values of the Anabaptists that have really played well into the Olive Wood project.

And also, um, their generosity, really. Like I know in many ways that you, you know, we could maybe challenge, uh, how we use our finances. And, and I think that's a part of it too. But ultimately the work in Greece through the organization we've been working with has only been possible by the generosity of the Anabaptists. So really I'm very thankful. And I think that, you know, the scripture, first John 3:17 and 18, where it talks about not only loving in words, but loving in, in, in truth and indeed, Mm-hmm, the Anabaptists in many ways have exemplified that and been generous. And that is how we have been able to, uh, you know, work with the refugees there.

So I think that's some of the strengths and things I'm very appreciative of. Maybe, uh, some challenges, how to think about business and economics. Um, you know, I think also this same verse from first John 3:17 and 18 also can be the challenge, um, that we do use our resources that God has given us for God and for his work and, and that we hold them with open hands. 'Cause in many ways, the Anabaptists in America have been blessed so richly and are very wealthy. And it's, I, I, I, you know, on one hand, their wealth is being used in, in many, they're very generous and it's been supporting works like this. But at the same time too, um, I think we can continue to inspect ourselves and, and you know, how are we using all of our resources?

One of the things I've learned in my own life too, in living in Greece, is that sometimes actually it can be easier to give, you know, a percentage out of the pie. And it can kind of appease our conscience and we feel like, you know, we did our good deed, we're able to help, but we're maybe completely unwilling to give our time. Ooh. Or we avoid the messy situations right at home in our home communities.

You know, you look at Jesus' ministry, he was engaged with the broken, with the sinners, with the outcasts, all the difficult situations that society didn't know what to do with. He was in the middle of them. I think this would be my main challenge is, uh, to really look at how we use all of our resources and our time is maybe our most valuable resource, even more than money. Um, and how are we engaging with our local communities and the outcasts in our community? Um, that'll be my challenge. Let's, let's spend more time, let's dig in. And in that struggle of trying to help and love and minister to these very, what feels like maybe helpless or chronic situations, it really makes us ourselves a better person.

And I, and my own life has shown me so much about God and his character and his love for me, um, which also reminds me of a story, if I may share it. Mm-hmm. Um, that really has spoke to me in ministry or in the work there in Lesvos and just my own life and some of the struggles that we have faced.

Um, so it starts somewhere on the coast, uh, near the ocean. And there was a big storm that had just washed in. And the waves and the wind had washed thousands or millions of starfish on the seashore. And there was this small child walking along the seashore, picking up one starfish and throwing it back into the water, picking up another, throwing another back into the water. And people gathered on the shore and they were ridiculing the child saying, what are you even doing? There's thousands, there's millions of starfish. Really, what are you doing to help them? Because there's so many. And the child just kept happily going on and saying, as, uh, she threw into the sea, it made a difference to that one.

It made a difference to that one. It made a difference to that one. And this has spoke and encouraged myself both in the aspect that God is overall the bigger picture and our job is simply to be where God has placed us and to focus on the needs that he has entrusted to us and not to be discouraged by the bigger picture of needs. And at the same time too, maybe another takeaway from this story that has been meaningful to me is realizing that maybe sometimes in life we are the starfish and maybe sometimes God enables us to be the child which is throwing the starfish back into the sea.

In ministry there, it can often feel like, and in anywhere, um, you know, I think it was helpful for me in understanding in this story, let's say that, you know, the starfish really don't have a comprehension of what's happening, of the love, of the care that maybe this little child had to throw them back into the sea.

But it's fine that, and that's not the point. The point is caring for the starfish, not that the starfish is able to, let's say, uh, worship you as their savior because we are nothing. God is ultimately the one that gives us the strength to throw the starfish back in. Anyway, so for me, that's been very encouraging and realizing that, you know, I think some days maybe also I'm the starfish in need and, and God sends someone along and throws me into the sea. Mm-hmm. And this also makes me stronger and more appreciative maybe of God's restoration, which then enables me to be even more useful in throwing maybe more starfish back in the sea. At least this is my prayer.

I hope that, uh, uh, with God's strength, we can, we can live this way. Yeah. So this has been an encouragement for me, uh, this story, and I hope it can be as well for you in ministry. So for the average listener, as we bring all these pieces together, just whoever might be out there listening to this, how can they support these kinds of efforts? Um, how can they apply the principles you've outlined into their own lives? Uh, leave us with some practical things as, as we wrap this episode up.

I think number one is prayer. Um, prayer is foundational in anything. And pray for the work, pray for Lesvos Woodcraft, pray for the organization there, the ministry with the refugees, that, uh, we could follow this leading of the Spirit and God could lead that we could be faithful. So prayer is, prayer is a big one. I think number two is, uh, finding ways to give with your time.

Um, I firmly believe that as a believer of Christ, we are all missionaries wherever we are. And God has entrusted us and gives us opportunities to minister no matter where we are. In fact, sometimes we are, we are most capable of helping the needs which are closest to home because we understand the needs the deepest. So giving time, looking for opportunities to minister to help.

Um, number three, if you wanna help in practical ways, I mean, we, you can check out our website at Lesvos Woodcraft. We're selling these olive wood utensils. Um, they make great gifts. Uh, a lot of our utensils go to, uh, businesses who are gifting them, uh, maybe Christmas gifts or maybe customer appreciation gifts. Uh, they're very unique. Actually, one thing I will highlight, they are initialed on the bottom of each utensil with, uh, one of the refugee artisans who helped make them. Mm-hmm. And they come packaged with a neat little card and barcode that you can scan and it, uh, you can put the, uh, initial of the refugee who made it. And there's a, some photos and some information that you can get to know the person a little bit better.

So they make wonderful gifts and also just practical kitchen everyday tools. So that's, you know, one practical way as well that you can support. Um, and if you find yourself in Greece, uh, or in any other situation where there's needs, uh, you know, giving your time and ministering, finding opportunities to minister, I think is a wonderful, uh, way to use, uh, our resources. Mm-hmm. And as you'd said earlier, you know, that sometimes that's the hardest one to do. It's easy to, oh, give, give a little percentage and then appease our conscience, so to speak, sometimes. Not that that's a bad thing. Yeah. You know, to, to, to God uses it. Absolutely. Absolutely. But ooh, it's, it's sometimes it's much harder to go visit your neighbor who's in need or to help the homeless guy down the street.