How Radical Islam Caused 9/11: Returning to the Sources and Bin Laden - Chris Stolzfus

When you get to the life of Muhammad when it comes to fighting and war, what do you do with that? If you're supposed to— If Muhammad is the ultimate example of how humans should live, and he's fighting wars, right, then if you want to follow in the path of the Prophet, then that could be a part of it.

So, as of recording this, we're coming up on a significant milestone in American history. Twenty-five years ago, approximately, 9/11 happened. Two passenger airliners flying into the Twin Towers in New York City, and then another into the Pentagon, and another aiming for the White House but diverted and crashes into a field in Pennsylvania. You know, and those things leave deep psychological scars on the American consciousness, I guess you could say, or on society, right? Sure. And it's a massive topic, and we won't hit everything, but we want to unpack a little of that today.

I think the big overarching question that I have in this is: how did we get to the point of, you know, jets flying into buildings? It's just so bizarre and so out there that it was hard to believe. Like, I remember— I'm sure you remember too, right— when it happens and you're just like, "There's just no way that's real." Then you see it on the TV and you're like, "That's actually real?" Like, that's just— there's no box for that at the time, right?

And so we want to try to trace back through history and say, like, how did we get to this place? And then maybe even looking forward to what was the response and the results across the Middle East, etc. There's a lot of different trails we could take. So we'll see where it all goes as the conversation unfolds. But that's kind of the big picture.

So, a little bit about yourself, though. Chris, you are a master's degree in Muslim studies, and you've lived and traveled across the Middle East quite a bit and studied into these things. So we want to try to unpack that. Honestly, I don't even know how to open— like, how do you— what's the first question you even ask? Because, like, this is such a big thing that has happened.

Where do you think we should start with a topic like this? Well, I think about— for those of us who were alive on 9/11, at least of age where we could remember things, we all remember where we were.

I remember precisely where I was when I heard the news of 9/11. I was working in my dad's shed shop, and I was standing about four feet off the ground, putting a piece of sheeting on the top section of a mini barn— of a barn that had a roof with four sides. And I was putting the front— I was putting the front piece on. I just remember very clearly where I was when I heard the news of that.

So, you know, it was very, very— I don't know— memorable, sad, hard. I remember then we— we didn't usually listen to the radio, but we pulled out a radio and started listening to the news to find out what was happening. And then we went to a friend and actually watched— watched it unfold on TV.

And I remember we were watching when the second tower fell, and that was— that was— that was a— wow. That was a surreal day, for sure. I think what— you know, I think about another 9/11 that— it's another day when I remember very clearly where I was when it happened.

And that was the day that the Amish school shooting happened. I was in college that day, and I remember being in a class. It was a— it was a politics class. And I forget exactly how I got the news. I think my dad called me and told me about the shooting, and this was very close to our house. I mean, it was, you know, a couple miles from where we lived. My brother actually went to the scene, and I went over and watched the scene, watched things unfold on a screen in the cafeteria. And at one point, my brother actually came up on the screen. He was being interviewed by the news. But that was a— that was— that was what some people called the Amish 9/11.

A very— another very surreal moment for people in Lancaster County, for sure. I think what's interesting is the Amish response to 9/11, to their 9/11, and the— and what led to 9/11, the real 9/11, right? Like, what— what is behind it all? Like, what would— what would motivate the Amish to— to offer forgiveness to the killer of their children? What would motivate them to do that versus what would motivate 19 men to get into an airplane and crash it into a tower, killing themselves and thousands and thousands of people? And I think that's— that's a big question, right?

Yeah. And both of those events, I mean, are— are— like you're saying, they're just, like, seared into people's minds almost. For sure. You know, I remember— I definitely remember the shooting, you know, which I don't— I don't live in Lancaster, but we were— you know, you still— that word gets around pretty quick as like, "Whoa, that happened." It's like this— almost like there's— like the ground shifts under your feet a little bit. It's like the world is different. I remember that about 9/11 too, though. It's like— Yeah, for sure. We had a neighbor right next door, and she had seen the first one— the first plane hit, and we were on recess from— because we're homeschooled.

And she's like, "Hey, something— something big is happening. We don't know what. Come over." And so all of us went over there, the whole family. And it was live. Like, when we saw the second tower— when the second plane hit, that was like when, "Wait a minute, this wasn't an accident." Like, at that point, everybody's like, "Oh, this is just an accident." And then that second one very deliberately hits, and you're like. I remember just— and, you know, I was young— I mean, pretty young at the time. You'd just be like, "The world is different now." Like, it has shifted, and we are never going back. How old were you? I would have been— I would have been seven.

Okay. Yeah. You have clear memory. Oh, yeah. Very clear. Yeah, very— like, very, very clear. Even that, you know, seeing people jump, you know. And that's all— I mean, this is all on live TV. That's kind of crazy if you think about that, right? And then you start hearing, "Oh, the Pentagon's been hit. Oh, they almost hit the White House." It's like, "Whoa." Like, the whole world has just shifted. You just— you can just feel that in you. And yeah, you could say in a— in a different way, and maybe in a smaller way, but for the Amish community, probably not a smaller way, but like that shooting as a similar thing. And then I think that is an important question.

What led up to that? But then the response to is important. Where would you like to go? Because with the story of, say, 9/11, or you could even say just radical terrorism, that's a pretty big and long story. It's kind of— I guess it's a question of how far back do you want to go to try to wrestle and grapple with? Well, yeah. Where do we want to go?

I think you have to start pretty far back to understand Islamic terrorism. I mean, and— and we had another session where we talked about sources, right? And so if you've watched that, then you can maybe tie the two together. But the Islamic sources, we have the Quran, and then we have the Hadith, right?

So out of those sources and the Sira, or like the biographies of the Prophet, over the centuries following Muhammad, they tried to put together a narrative of what Muhammad did, what he said, you know, the way he lived. If you read those sources, you're going to find there's— there's quite a bit of violence.

Very early on, so in the first ten years of Muhammad's Prophethood, if you want to call it that, he had very little political power. In fact, he had no political power. He was persecuted. He had around 90 followers in the first ten years of his existence, or of his Prophethood, and they were persecuted.

Everything changed when Muhammad was invited to come to Medina. So according to the Islamic story, Muhammad was in Mecca, which is being questioned by scholars today, but this is the story. So we'll go with that. Muhammad was in Mecca, and he was invited to come to Medina to help arbitrate some political— some rivalries there. And so when he came to Medina, which is north from Mecca, he became a political leader, not just a preacher, right? And so you have— what you have now is you have Islam not only being a religion of speaking about God and who God is, but now tying that in with political power, which I find very interesting if you compare it with Jesus.

You know, if you look at what Jesus did when he was— when they wanted to make him king, you remember? What did he do? Well, Jesus was like, "Basically, no." Yeah, no. It's just not— So a very stark contrast. You know, Jesus is— they want to make him king by force because if you want to overthrow the Romans, you'd probably want Jesus on your side. He can raise dead people to life. He can make— you know, he can do a lot of good things that would help you in battle, right? And so he'd be a great king on your team. And Jesus is like, "No." He slips away. Muhammad did the opposite. He accepted, and he became the leader.

So from there, in the beginning, again, it was still fairly peaceful. But one day, according to this Islamic narrative, some of Muhammad's followers were out in the desert, and a trading caravan came through from Mecca. Now, this was in the months— this was in the month that they were not supposed to be fighting. So according to Aslan— Reza Aslan— in his book No God But God, he would say that there was one month of the year where they would fight each other as clans or as tribes. But otherwise, they were— no, there was not one month. There was one month of peace where they weren't supposed to fight each other. The other months, they could.

And so according to the Islamic narrative, these guys were out in the desert, and a caravan of trading caravan came from Mecca and was passing through. And they attacked the caravan and, I think, killed one or two people and robbed them and took their stuff and brought it to Muhammad. And first of all, Muhammad said, "No, this is bad. You shouldn't be doing this. It's the months of peace. You know, you're not supposed to be fighting." But then he got a revelation saying, "Oh, it's actually okay because, you know, they're worse than you," or something like that. And so when Muhammad lived in Medina, he carried out— I don't have the exact number off the top of my head, but I think it was in the 20 or so— 20 raids of different caravans where they would rob the caravans.

And of course, that made the Meccans quite unhappy, right? So they weren't very happy that their trade route was being— and so they brought an army, fought against Muhammad the second— the second round. Muhammad lost that one, and he said— and so when he lost that, he blamed his men, saying they didn't listen to him, and if they would just listen to him, then God would bless them.

As time went on, some years later, Muhammad actually became the strong political power in the region, which then caused people to come to him from all across Arabia, make political alliances with him, and he became the power broker in the region. And it's all tied in with Islam, okay?

Eventually, he goes back to Mecca. Mecca surrenders, and now he consolidates his power. All right? So we see Islam tied with political power and violence very early on. And this is all coming from Islamic sources, right? I mean, this is— Yes. This all comes from Islamic sources. Like the Quran itself or other Islamic writings. Yeah. So you have the Quran, you have the Hadith, which are sayings and deeds of the Prophet, which were transmitted by different people. And then you have the Sira, or the Sira, which would be the biographies of Muhammad. And so that's where you'll read a lot about these— these— the violence and the fighting and the conquering and all of that.

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You can also help by telling others about this podcast. Thank you for your support, and now back to the episode. Okay, so right at the very beginning then, we're seeing some pretty stark differences on the use of violence and political power between Christianity and Islam, I guess you could say, or between Muhammad and Jesus, or however you want to phrase that. Okay, sure. But then how does that— how does that story continue? And like, why does that even matter to the story we're— you know, again, in the broader picture of what we're looking at here? Sure. It matters because Muslims see Muhammad as the model human being.

Okay. So if you want to be a good person, you want to emulate Muhammad in everything you do, right? And that includes how long your pants are, right? Or how you brush your teeth. So if you want to brush your teeth properly, like Muhammad brushed his teeth, you will get a mishwak. And you can buy these at Muslim stores at— and you will— it's a little twig, and if you take the bark off, it's a little bit like a brush. And so you'll brush your teeth with a mishwak because that's how Muhammad brushed his teeth, right? Okay. So if you want to break a fast, there's specific ways to break the fast. And now it gets very complicated, okay?

So there are certain ways to break the fast. If you want to have a beard, how long should your beard be, you know? Or maybe not so much that. Where do you hold your hands when you pray? That's an important— that's a question, right? So some people will hold their hands here and some down here.

And that's because they read different Hadith about how long Muhammad's beard was. So the length of Muhammad's beard determines where— where you hold your hands when you pray. And so there's this whole field of scholarship where they're looking at the sources and trying to figure out how did Muhammad live? What did he do? And then we need to figure out how to follow him, right? How to— how to walk in the path of the Prophet. It's called Sunnat ar-Rasul. It's the Sunnah of the Prophet. And so in everything you do, you want to exemplify the life of Muhammad. It gets very complicated. I mean, if you're— if you're getting up in the morning, you need to figure out how to put your trousers on.

You need to figure out which side of which foot comes out of bed first. You need to know what prayer to pray. You need to know what— you know, it's very complicated, okay? Islam is very simple. Remember that.

You just say, "La ilaha illallah." Anyway, but if you talk to Muslims, they'll say it's very simple. But once you start getting into the details, it is incredibly complex. And probably lots of variation then in between and amongst all these different views. Okay. So then over time, there's this whole world of like trying to figure out how should we live? Yeah. Basically. Is that a— I mean, that's probably oversimplified, but is that the right concept? Yeah.

And they— and so they study the sources, but the sources disagree. They contradict each other. And so then you have— then you have scholars that need to figure out which is a good— which is a good Hadith, one that actually is authentic, which is not. And then they disagree on that. And so they have different— there's four main schools of thought, especially within Sunni Islam, and they would disagree on which— they would agree on a lot of things, but they would maybe disagree on certain Hadith, you know, which ones are trusted and which ones are not. Anyway, but all of this in an attempt to build a society that follows Muhammad, right?

Now, when you get to the life of Muhammad when it comes to fighting and war, what do you do with that? If you're— if Muhammad is the— is the ultimate example of how humans should live and he's fighting wars, right? Well then, then if you want to follow in the path of the Prophet, then that could be a part of it.

So you see— what you see is Islam in the beginning, it spreads all across North Africa. It starts going up into Europe in time of the Reformation, when the Anabaptist movement was starting. We had Islam at the door. Up until then, you know, we have the Ottoman Empire trying to take over more of Europe. There were several times in— in history— throughout— throughout the history where— where Islam nearly took over all of Europe. And that's sobering to think about because if Islam would have taken over the rest of Europe, what would have that done? What would that— you know, where would we be? Where would you be? Think about that. Like, our roots are in Europe, right?

And so that was a huge fear during the Reformation that the Ottomans are going to come and take over Europe. You've heard the story of Michael Sattler, probably, where he— when on his— at his trial, they were accusing him of saying he would rather fight with the— with the Turks than with— than with the Christians because he said, "You Christians, you're Turks after the spirit, and I'd rather fight with them than people who say they're Christians and are actually Turks," you know? But he says, "We should love, we should not fight," right? But there was a real fear in that time. And so we have Islam for— for centuries, right, seeking to be expansionist. Like, this is— this is not new, right?

So the things that we see happening today, it's not new, right? It's— it's been part of the story, I would say, from the very beginning. Now you could— you can also argue the other way. So you have Europe being expansionist as well, you know? So it doesn't just go one way. It goes— it goes two ways. The interesting thing is, I talked to Muslims— in fact, just a few weeks ago, I was in— in London. I met this Muslim guy at Speaker's Corner, and he was— he was— he was saying that— he was telling me that it's the Christians— which, okay, I— to be clear, I don't think Christians should be involved in the military.

That's not who I am, you know? But he said it's the Christian countries— it's the Western countries who are bombing and killing people. And my argument was, just like Muhammad, they're doing just what Muhammad did. What's wrong with it? You know, from my perspective, it's wrong that— you know, I said— I said to him— I asked him— so I said, "All of war is from Shaytan," right? He couldn't say yes to that. Like, I would propose and believe that war— anytime we see war and killing, it's not promoted by Jesus. It's a work of Satan.

Yeah. See, that's where— that's where the clash of different— of civilizations and differences happens is right there. Yeah. Right? Because Jesus makes it extremely clear we're not picking up the sword. That's not what we're doing. Not who we are. That's not us. Yeah. Yeah. And I know many Christians do, but as Anabaptist people, we say, "No, that's not—" Yeah. Like, we are called to— to— you know, reflect Christ in our lives. He didn't go around, you know, blowing up bridges and, you know, assassinating Roman soldiers. No. You know, like, it was obviously not a "let's overthrow the Roman government" political movement or something. For sure. So I can see where these can become diverting paths that are also on a road to collision.

Yeah. You know, is that essentially what we're seeing here? Like a collision course being charted? But see, I would say most Western countries who claim to be Christian are not following in the way of Christ when they're fighting and, you know, when they're being colonialists and taking over, you know, Muslim empires and whatever. That's not the way of Christ, right? And so the clash comes from— where does it come from? There's a lot there. Like, if we would talk about— you want to talk about colonialism? Well, I feel like that— that's got to come in. That— that would be coming into more recent history, but where you had, quote-unquote, "Christian empires," you know, say the UK or something at the time— or, well, the British Empire at the time— and they're going over and colonizing a bunch of things and taking them over, and you inevitably are going to have a clash of civilizations on a bunch of different levels.

But it would become very stark and obvious when you have them saying, "Yeah, we're Christian," quote-unquote, and you go to a Muslim area and they're, "Well, we're Muslim," and those two coming to a clash. Yeah. When now you're seeing that as a clash of religions, even if that's not entirely true, at least in some ways. What do you think of that? Like, that's— it feels like that's where colonialism just kind of makes it inevitable that that's going to happen.

Maybe we should define colonialism. Maybe everybody knows what colonialism is. No, please. What are we talking about when we're talking about colonialism? Yeah, please. So colonialism was an era starting in— you know, about what time? I mean, I'm saying— I'm thinking 1700s? Yeah, it would have been sooner than that. 1600s? Yeah, at least.

Where I would say it's a Western country— it's a Western nation— started gaining and exerting more and more control over the Middle East and that general region. Not just Muslim countries. I mean, India, you know, all of those areas. It started— I think it became strongest through the Industrial Revolution when Western countries gained the upper hand militarily because of— of their progress, if you want to call it that, in inventions. So if you think about the Industrial Revolution and what that— what all that brought us, it brought us cars, it brought us the engine, it brought us the ability to build trains and to, you know, cross, you know? And so you had the West developing all of this.

And if you want to develop that, what— what do you need to develop all of these systems? You need something to build these things with, right? You need raw materials. You need the raw materials. Well, where are the raw materials?

I mean, well, and you saw that a lot in Africa because they had a lot of raw material, but then you start running into things like, "Hey, there's oil in the Middle East." Oil? That's a really big one. You know, coal, obviously. Yeah. It's almost like you had these— these powers that were more technologically advanced than— than much of the world. And so they're like, "Hey, we need resources to run all this new technology, so let's just go get— get the stuff." Well, they would start— yeah, they would start by buying it, and then they'd say, "You know what? Maybe we need to have a small military force here to protect our— our interests." Yeah.

And so the governments would— would open— and they might say, "You know what? We'll protect our interests here, and then we'll build a railroad for you," right? And so slowly but surely— or we'll give you telephone lines, you know, then you can actually have telephones. Yeah, yeah. You know, and so slowly but surely the Western technological— technologically advanced nations sort of slowly but surely took over these— these regions. And they didn't always do it by force, you know? They actually did it in conjunction, oftentimes with local people, right? Because there were— there were locals who would benefit from this. So one— one group might say, "Hey, yeah, we'll work with you on this, you know, if we get this."

And so they would— Oh, yeah. So we can become more powerful than the other group. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, exactly. You had— actually, one of the big things that happened during this time, you had Europeans— there's a lot here, wow— because this is really tied into modernism, where there's this— there's this feeling in the air that progress is like godliness almost, right? Okay. And so— and what the world needs is progress.

World War I, they said, was the war to end all wars because there was so much optimism that humans are now becoming so smart that they can solve all the world's problems, right? And if we have the answers as Westerners, we should take it to the East, right? Because these people are ignorant. They don't have the advances that we do. We should go enlighten them? Yeah, we need to go. Yeah, liberate them. And Christians were in this— Christians were involved in this quite— quite a lot. They would go start schools, right? Because they wanted to enlighten these people and train them and teach them and help them become enlightened like we were, right? And so there's this— there's this mindset that progress is— is everything, right?

And it's going to solve all the world's problems because humans are now— we really don't need God anymore. We— we are smart enough to figure this out on our own. That's a huge part of the story there, right? Because then you— you inevitably are going to have a clash of differing values. Yeah. Differing religious frameworks— and frameworks, I think, is the key word there because this is all couched in empire and power grabs and things that I think we've already made clear we don't think is what Jesus would have done, right? But it's— still, it's done in the name of Christianity or Christendom or something like that. Yeah. In— at least in sometimes, you know?

But okay, then what— where do we go from there? Yeah. So you have the West gaining more and more control, working with local governments, oftentimes. One interesting example was how Christians went into the Ottoman Empire hoping to evangelize Muslims, right? They found that a bit difficult, so they just started working with the local Christian populations. Well, what happens then is Christians now have access to Europe more than the Muslims.

Oh. They have access to education. They— because they're studying in these Christian schools, right? And so now they can get scholarships to study in Europe. And that starts to change the balance of power. And you have Christians also working with other Christians to develop business. So now the Christian population starts to gain more power, and the Muslims start to get left behind, right? Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So then you have the things that never happened in Turkey that actually happened, you know, where millions— a million or more Christians were killed, and they were driven out of Turkey and some of those regions. Muslims were also driven out of Greece. And so it actually went both ways.

Oof. Millions— like, hundreds of thousands of people. It's terrible. The stories are awful. It's called the Armenian genocide. There's also the Islamic side where they were. So I would say a lot of that comes out of the West stepping in to try to bring enlightenment, right, and sort of upsetting the balance of power in the region, right? Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oof. How do we get ourselves, though, to— to the ideology of radical terrorist acts being done or Islam— you know, Islamic terrorism, I guess you could say? Like, is that a certain ideology that pops onto the scene somewhere in this phase? You know, you kind of started with some of the source code, I guess you could say, like, how this started.

Yeah. You know, and then the differences and you're like, "Those are diverting directions and paths," like we established between Jesus, Muhammad, whatever. But also, it's like we're seeing some collision courses here. So I would say that the source code was still there, right, underneath all of this.

There was a big attraction in the Muslim world toward the West at that point. You have Kemal Atatürk in Turkey, who abolished the caliphate, which had been in existence since the time of Muhammad in 1924. It's like getting rid of the pope. And that— Well, that's only 100 years ago. Yeah, exactly.

And that's huge for the Muslim world, right? Like, they know— they no longer have a pope, more or less. So that's big. Okay, so you had a lot of the Muslim world becoming very secularized. If you look at photos from the Middle East, a lot of these countries from 50 years ago, 50, 75 years ago, very few women wore burqas. Very few women covered.

They would walk around in miniskirts, you know? And— and something started to shift in that time. There were several movements, and— and the idea was here. So in Islam, the sources tell them that they are the best of people and they should be the winners. And you see that in the beginning of Islam. Islam grew incredibly, mostly through conquest, and then using that to, you know, encourage or force people to become Muslims, whatever you want to say. But you have that— you have that— you have that movement of Islam. So modernization, but like, that's say 50 years ago, but like, today it wouldn't quite— Well, 10 years. Yeah, it wouldn't quite be— like, I'm assuming some kind of backlash is coming.

Yeah. Again, that clash is coming, right? That— So yeah. So Muslims were losing power. They didn't have power. And so there came this voice— these voices, actually, that said, "The answer is to go back to the sources." Okay. That sounds almost like what you hear in the Reformation. Exactly. Yeah. Where the Christians are saying, "Wait a second. This is all just tradition and like, we can't even read the Bible. That's— that's— that's ridiculous. We want to read the Bible." And so you start seeing— Yeah. You see, let's see, I don't know, Wycliffe and, you know, and Tyndale and some of these guys would be like, "Whoa, wait a second. We got to be able to read the Bible.

Like, what does it actually say?" And then boom, you had this Reformation starting. Yeah. And there was this call to go back to the sources. It's called ad fontes, is that how you say it? Oh, I haven't heard of that. Something like that. Yeah. There was this— there was this movement. Okay. Not only— I mean, like, among scholars, you know, "Let's get back to the sources." And so that's what you have the Reformation coming out of that. You have the Anabaptist movement coming out of that desire to go back to the sources, right? But you're saying Islam has a moment kind of like that. Islam has a moment like that later, I would say.

You know, we have colonialism. Now we have a backlash. We have people saying, "We need to get back to the sources. If we just got back to the sources, if we followed Islam like we're supposed to, we would again start winning."

Okay. Okay? So what did— what did— what did they do? Like, who was it and etc., etc.? You have— there's several movements. One would be the Wahhabi movement. Okay. Wahhabi movement is— it comes out of Saudi Arabia and somewhat connected, but maybe somewhat independent. You have the Muslim Brotherhood, right, in Egypt. They were a very strong voice for returning to Islam. There's a book called Milestones by Sayed Qutb. Oh. And some people would say that that book has probably contributed more to radical Islam today than about anything else. And that was what, 75 years ago or something? He was writing that? Somewhere around there. Yeah. He actually came to America to study.

And he was so appalled with America. He— he was appalled with our lawns and how we water our lawns, you know? And he went to a church once. One time he went to a church, and he happened to go and there was a dance. The— the young people were dancing. And he explains— he writes about this horrible— this experience at this church dance and how indecent it was. But all of those things convinced him that Islam has the answers. He ended up going back to the— back to Egypt, ended up in prison because of his work with the Muslim Brotherhood. And while he was in prison, he wrote Milestones. And that book is a very influential book in the broad radical Islamic movement today.

And so he's part of that cry of like, "Go back to the sources." Back to the sources. Go back to our— back to our, you know, roots and back to Tawhid. He talked a lot about the oneness of God. And so some of those voices really, really brought back more of a conservative form of Islam, you know, back to wearing the hijab. So today you'll see— you go to the Middle East and a lot— a lot of these places, you'll see most women will be wearing something.

There's— there's regions where they don't. But that changed a lot. You know, people wanted to get back to Islam, back to their roots so that God could start fighting for them. Another movement was— I talked about Wahhabi Islam. Yeah. I actually wrote a— I wrote a paper in school here, I guess it was in 2009, called Returning to the Sources. And I was comparing the life of Mehough Simons and Abdul Wahhab. Oh, boy. Yeah, that's interesting because— okay, so Mehough being early— well, fairly early— well, about middle of the way through the Reformation, I guess you could say. You see that, right? He's— he's really wrestling with what do I believe, what do the sources say, because he's a Catholic priest.

I'm getting this about right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So tell me the contrast there. So, okay, Abdul Wahhab, he was a— he— he was a little bit of a nobody at first. Basically, he was a person who was advocating to— to get back to the sources, right? And he says, "We need to—" he basically says, "We need to ignore all these years of scholarship, all the scholars. What the scholars have told us is hogwash. We need to get back to the sources, back to what Muhammad said, back to how he lived," right? Now, again, if you want to get back to what Muhammad did and said, what is that going to look like?

Wow. Yeah. Very political and it seems violent. Yeah, for sure. Right? And that's exactly what Wahhabism became. So you have Wahhabi Islam and as it took over Saudi Arabia, what were the numbers? Thousands and thousands of people were killed. They— they cut off hands. They did, you know, they're— they're going back to the sources, following. Yeah. You know. I mean, Saudi, until very recently, it's easy to forget, but until very recently was, like, very strict and aggressive on its Islamic rule, right? I would say— I don't know. Has it changed?

It's open for tourism now, so they make it look really polished on the outside. This is my understanding. I shouldn't say— it's not that much that— Do they still execute people publicly? No, I don't think so. But that wasn't that long ago. I mean, in my lifetime, they've been executing people publicly. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember in college I had a— a fellow student who was saying that. He's like, "Oh, yeah, I remember," you know, it was a military family and they were— they were over there and she grew up there and she was like, "Oh, yeah, like, the public executions were like, yeah." Pretty cool. "Oh, yeah, you'd go out to the local, you know, parking lot or whatever and they'd make sure that, you know, 'Oh, you're the American, make sure you stand in the front.'

And then they would use a sword and, like, kill somebody." Cut a guy's head off. Yeah. And then— and— and she was like. And that's very recent. Oh, yeah. And she remembers seeing this and being like, "Wow, this place is, like, okay, you know, very strict Islam," you know? Yeah. Now, that would— that would have changed, I guess. They don't quite do it that way anymore. But I think the source code is still there. Who— who knows? It's— I know it's a kind of complicated thing. But that— when she told me that, it was, like, kind of rattled me a little bit. It was like, "Whoa, that seems pretty barbaric or intense," you know? I guess you could say intense.

And it's— again, it's coming from the life of Muhammad, from following, you know? It's not that far removed from— from the true Islam that you would see in— in the early days. Here it is. Islamic Jihad became the chosen method of action in all the conquests of Saudi Arabia, cost 400,000 lives. According to Al-Gharr, the governors of the various provinces appointed by Ibn Saud— there's a history here, Ibn Saud and Ibn Abdul Wahhab, they joined forces. So Wahhab was the religious scholar, right? Okay. And then he joined forces with the political force.

And the British supported them, I think, at some point. Ah, so there you get some of that colonialism. So you get the colonialism tied in here. And they eventually were able to— to carve out, you know, their own whatever.

And they carried out 40,000 public executions, 350,000 amputations in the course of subduing the peninsula, right? So this is what is Saudi Arabia basically today. Yeah. Or generally speaking, I guess. So that— that's— Ooh. And this is what, 1700s? Did you say the dates on this? 1700s. Yeah, somewhere in there. I don't have the dates right in front of me.

Something like that. Not that long ago. Yeah. Not that long ago. Like 200 years. Maybe towards the end of the 1700s. Like, this is 200 years ago. That would've been here somewhere. Yeah. I think we're going to post this on the— 250 years ago, maybe. We're going to post this article on the show notes or whatever. Yeah. So people can read it if they wish. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I was reading through it beforehand and it was like, "Whoa, this is— okay, I didn't know any of this," you know? I mean, there was definitely a feeling of that because I— you know, I've— I've seen that in Mehough Simons' writings and the Reformation and just the era of change and— and him being like, "Ooh, I've actually not really read the scriptures."

You know, he's a Catholic priest. I haven't really read the Bible. I better do that because he's having all these questions. And so he starts reading the Bible and it's like, "Whoa, I got some things wrong. I have to change some stuff." And then, you know, Mehough Simons, right? I mean, you can still read his stuff today. Yeah. And so that part of the story, I was like, "Okay." But then hearing it from a Muslim perspective and them saying the same thing and then looking at some, you know, what they did with that or this— let's say this person in particular at least did with that.

Okay. You know, it's— it's— whoa, you know? Yeah. Well, it's interesting. They're both going back to the sources, right? Yeah. Yeah, they— yeah. That's the call. Forget all these years of scholars and popes and whatever else. We got to go back to what the sources teach us, what our leader shows us. And that's what Mehough Simons was doing. We need to get back to the Bible, following Jesus and living like he lived. Exactly what Wahhabi, the Wahhabi doctrine was saying. We need to get back to the sources, following. And so he did— yeah, did a lot of things that— to— to bring back pure Islam, right?

So that's— that's happening in Saudi. You also mentioned Milestones, the book. That's— that's obviously later, but it's in a similar vein. That's in Egypt, which isn't that far away. It sounds like there's a lot of this kind of, again, in the air. Yeah. ISIS now, more recently. Yeah. Would be— would be coming very, I would say, very much out of the Wahhabi, you know, form of— of radicalism or whatever you want to call it. So what happens in the last— it'd be hard to put a timestamp on this, I guess, but in— in the modern era of the Middle East, that results in this collision course that we've been charting, right?

There's a very clear, distinctive track difference. And you've already seen some of that confrontation with colonialism. Yeah. And other issues. But what happens in the modern Middle East that brings that about? The modern Middle East? Yeah. Let's— let's get into the recent history. Well, okay. I mean, you have— you have the— you have the Twin Towers, you have the war in Iraq, you have the war in Afghanistan, you know? It— it kind of keeps going around and around. If you have— if you remember George Bush, he said this war on terror, he called it a— what did he call it? Oh, didn't he use the word crusade? He called it a crusade. Yeah. Not a good— not a good choice of words.

Or righteous crusade, I think it was. He called it a crusade. Yeah. Or something along those lines. Yeah. Not— not a good choice of words if— if you're going into the Middle East because they remember the crusades like we remember, I don't know, our grandma's birthday or whatever. Yeah. More better than that. Yeah. You know, I mean, the Muslims are— like, the Middle East is very tied to their history, much more so than we are in the— in the West. So you— you've got those wars, which, you know, of course, stirs people up. And what— what I find interesting is Western scholars are really trying hard to make sure that we know that Islam is a religion of peace, right?

Yeah. When I— when I travel the Middle East, they're not ashamed of being warriors and, you know, fighting— fighting and killing. That's just— I— I was a— I was in the— in Syria once before the war. And a friend that I met when I was studying Arabic, he invited me to come to his village. And so I said, "Sure, I'll come." Northern part of Syria. And he took me to this ice cream shop. And while we're there eating ice cream, he's telling me about this famous person from this village who went to— went to Iraq to fight the Americans. So I'm like, "Okay, here I am, an American." And he's telling me this story about, you know, how proud they are of the people and especially this one person who went to Iraq and to fight the Americans.

And— and so there's— you know, there's no shame in— in— in— into it. Maybe it's a little bit like America, actually, you know? I mean, if you think about it, Americans are proud of being warriors. Christians are proud of their participation in the military. So it's— it's not that much different. But what's so bizarre with that story in particular, we know— like, in that case, all those warriors coming over from Syria into Iraq to fight the Americans, like, after the US invades and all of this stuff. Yeah.

That group, by and large, would have been called Al-Qaeda, which later turns into ISIS. Correct. So, like, this guy that they're so proud of, that this guy— this friend of yours is telling you about, that almost certainly was the group he was associated with. Yeah. I think he was killed very quickly, you know, very soon, but they were proud of him, you know? I think that's kind of bizarre because, like, we flip that around from our perspective as Americans. Be like, "What?" You know, "That's a terrorist." And from their lens, it's like, "No, he's a freedom fighter." Or something to that extent. Yeah, exactly. That's just disorienting. Yeah, it is. Like, it's— yeah, it is interesting.