How Can We Make a Difference Without Voting? — Merle Burkholder — Ep. 222

Real change comes to the world through the Kingdom of God and through Christ changing the hearts of people. And that, you know, empires come and go. So, you know, the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire, and they all, I mean, they come and go. But the Kingdom of God is an everlasting kingdom, and it's without end.

Welcome back to Anabaptist Perspectives. We're joined by Merle Burkholder today. And Merle, you've been involved in ministry for 45 years. You've been in church leadership for a good while now. You do a lot of teaching and so forth. And one of the core concepts within the Anabaptist worldview is how we relate to the nations that we live within.

And you helped write an article on this, which we'll link down below, dealing with some of this. And we're going to dive into that because it hardly needs to be said. But we're filming this in an election year here in America, and especially it feels like the last number of years. The political scene has gotten very aggressive and has seemed to dominate so many conversations in society. And that is bleeding over into our churches, which causes a lot of confusion. You know, what do we do with these questions? How do we handle these things where there's so much fear and rage and all these unknowns about our country and so forth? What's the proper response?

So we want to get into that. It feels, again, particularly poignant and relevant right now with the current election that's coming up here in a couple of months as of this recording. So let's jump into that. Yeah. Do you have words to say as far as introduction, laying the context for the conversation, and then we'll just jump in from there?

Yeah. Nationalism is something that has a pull. It has an allure for our people. Part of it is that we've never lived anywhere this long without being persecuted. So we're in new territory, and we've been frugal and have worked hard. So we become prosperous. And so we have things, and we've lived here a long time in this country. And so we can begin to identify as Americans or Canadians and begin to see ourselves as citizens of this country, which we are. And there's a lot of things that are wrong in society. There's a lot of things that bother us that are not the way they ought to be. And we see change that should happen in society, and legitimately so.

And so we say, well, how is that going to happen? How is change going to come? And politicians offer hope for change and that there's going to be they can make it happen, and they're the one who can solve the problems. And then when politicians come that may have maybe a pro-business agenda or they seem to agree with us on some social issues, then we can get drawn into. Well, they'll fix it. And that's the way to bring change to the country. And we want our way of life to be preserved, and we want to be able to live the way we live. And we lose that pilgrim and stranger concept that we'll live wherever we need to live to practice our faith.

And so if we can't do it here, maybe we'll move to Uganda and do it there. But it's not site-specific. We can practice our faith. We'll live where we need to live to practice our faith. And we become we want to defend our way of life in the country in which we're living and feel like we have a right to live here, and we need to be able to live the way we live. And another thing that's happened is that since World War II, we've become accustomed to the approval of society and that people say, "Oh, you Mennonites, you're good people, and we really like you, and you just have a nice way of life, and you're really good people."

And we've forgotten that what it means to live in an atmosphere where society thinks we're wrong and that we're not necessarily good people. And there's never been a good time to be a Christian. To be a committed Christian is always counterculture. But there's a pressure to get drawn into the culture of the society around us and to feel like government and politicians are the ones that can bring change. And then politicians feed into that by using religion as a way to create support for their agenda and what they want. And politics is fueled by fear and rage. And so if people are either afraid or they're angry, they'll turn out to vote. And so politicians fuel fear and rage in order to motivate people to go to the polls.

And there are things that should make us angry. There are things that should make us concerned. But what we do about that is where the difference comes in for us as followers of Christ. And so then politicians will use religious language to, well, it gets co-opted for political purposes. So a couple of years ago, President Biden made a statement saying, "When the Lord asks, 'Whom shall I send?'" The American military has been answering that call for a long time. "Here am I, send me." So.

Wow. That's interesting biblical hermeneutics being applied there. Yeah. Wow. But when we begin to think that the American military is answering God's call, it just distorts the whole basis of Scripture. And Isaiah's call wasn't a call to the military. That isn't what God asked him to do at all.

And in the 2020 State of the Union address, President Trump had the widow of a soldier that had been killed in battle or in service. And his widow was in the gallery at the State of the Union address. And President Trump asked her to stand, recognized her. And then he said, "You know, right now, your husband is looking down on us." And it's almost like if you lose your life in the military, it's a ticket to heaven. You're going to be—so it gets close to some other religions, like Islam's concept of if you're a martyr, you're going to paradise.

And it's not like dying in military service is not an assurance of going to heaven. But those things can get into our thinking, and we can feel like that's the answer. And then we see politicians that they may do things that we like and things that we support and things that we agree with. And we're like, "See, it works.

They got it done." But the problem is that political solutions are temporary solutions. You win and you lose political battles. And so while there may be short-term results, they're not enduring. They're not lasting. And so just thinking about the abortion question, for decades, the Republican Party used abortion as a way of motivating their base. We have to overturn Roe v. Wade.

And if so you come out, you vote. We'll get that done. And for decades, they motivated people to vote. And there were people who said, "I don't care about anything else. I'm a one-issue voter. I'm just voting on abortion. That's the only issue that matters to me. The rest is all, whether they're militaristic or whatever, is a side issue. I'm voting on the issue of abortion."

So then President Trump did what he said he would. He appointed three conservative justices. They overturned Roe v. Wade. Now the anger and the fear on the abortion issue has shifted to the other side. And so now the Democratic Party will use it as a way of bringing their people to the polls. And we have to restore these things. And so someday it may go the other way. And so it's a short-term solution. And politics doesn't make long-term grassroots change.

So it hasn't changed. You can overturn Roe v. Wade, but it doesn't change the demand for abortion. There are still people who want abortions. And so it doesn't bring change at the grassroots level. So is this a challenge of methods, as in what's going to actually work? Or is it more than that, or maybe a little bit of both?

Well, it's a little bit of both. It's some, "How does change happen?" But it's a recognition that real change comes to the world through the Kingdom of God and through Christ changing the hearts of people. And that empires come and go. So the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire, and they all, I mean, they come and go. But the Kingdom of God is an everlasting kingdom, and it's without end. And you think about when Jesus lived in a time of political oppression for Israel, and people wanted to make him a king and wanted him to be a revolutionary and get rid of the Romans and establish a godly kingdom in Israel. And he didn't do that.

He didn't have any interest in that. As a matter of fact, when they were going to take him to be king, he would disappear. And he didn't allow them to put him into that position or into that slot.

And he probably, I mean, he could have taken that position. But let's think about it. Even if he would have been successful, what if he would have become the King of Israel? And he would have been able to somehow defeat the Romans and establish a nation of Israel and restore the worship of God in Israel. And it would have been like today, 2,000 years later, what would be the result of that? It would be rather minimal compared to what he actually did when he brought in the Kingdom of God and how that's changed lives way beyond the boundaries of Israel. And all around the world, you have people who are followers of Christ, and it's permeated societies all around the world.

And the problem with nationalism is it's such a small idea. It's just one little geographical region, and the rest of the world is kind of, well, it's not even thought about. And it's just like, "Well, we're really going to do something right here in this country. But what about the rest of the world?" And the Kingdom of God is just this global thing that removes all the barriers and all of the distinctions that people make.

And so it's a much bigger, grander idea and concept than nationalism. I think that was an important concept for myself when thinking through these challenges with nationalism. And that is America, population-wise, is only 4% of the world. 4%, which is very little in the grand scheme of things. And that made me kind of stop and be like, "Oh, maybe we're not quite as significant as we like to think we are," which you have the American complex of thinking we're the best thing ever. But then you have the other side, too, where you scale it back and say that the global church is this massive entity that covers basically every nation, not every people group, but basically every country.

And it's way bigger, way, way, way bigger and more enduring than America will ever be. And also this thought that one day, every country that now exists will probably not exist because things change. I mean, if you read through history, take any of the countries that existed then, and things change, borders move, etc., maybe we're dealing on a timescale that's too small or too short.

If we're getting wrapped up into nationalism, I should say, how does that resonate? What would you say to that? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. We focus on the short term rather than the long term. And when we focus on the long term, then we're thinking about the Kingdom of God and that eternal kingdom, that everlasting kingdom that is without end. And we invest in something that really is enduring and something that really has potential for the long term.

So maybe a possible way of thinking about this and dealing with nationalism is simply to encourage people to think on bigger timescales. That seems a bit simplistic, but I actually wonder, what if we were thinking in timescales of 500 years or 1,000 years from now? What's going to be here?

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And also to think beyond our own ethnicity, our own nationality, and that it's so much bigger than all that. And it's something that is way broader than one country. So that's interesting about we identify as citizens of the countries we live in, I mean, in the sense that I have an American passport or so forth. You're a dual citizen. So how does that work? You're both Canadian and an American citizen. I wonder, does that give you any extra insight? If you have multiple countries now that you can identify with, does that change the narrative for you at all? Is that a helpful piece of context for us here? One of the things that was interesting was I was born in the United States, so I was an American citizen at birth.

And then we moved to Canada, and I became naturalized as a Canadian citizen. But before I did that, took that step, I didn't want to lose my United States citizenship. So I wrote a letter to the State Department saying, "Can I retain my U.S. citizenship if I'm naturalized as a Canadian citizen?" So they sent me a 20-page document with all the reasons why it's not a good idea. And then the last two or three pages were, "However, it is possible. And here's some things that if you decide to do it, these will help you." One of the things was that I could make a notarized statement that I don't intend to forfeit my U.S. citizenship and that I intend to fulfill the responsibilities of a citizen of the United States by doing the following things.

And so I went to a lawyer, and I drew up this paper, and I made a list of things that these are things that I will do as a faithful citizen of the United States of America. I will pay my taxes. I'll obey the laws. And I forget what all was on the list, but obviously, military service wasn't one of them. But here are the things that I will do as a faithful citizen of the United States. So I also have a citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God. That's my primary allegiance. That's my primary identity. I am a citizen of the Kingdom of God. And so that's my primary identity. However, I live in Canada, and I will.

And when I took the—when I went to the citizenship ceremony to become a citizen of Canada, I had to affirm that I will be a loyal subject of Queen Elizabeth II. And so I said that I will be a loyal subject of Queen Elizabeth II. And so there are things that I do as a loyal citizen of the British Empire, I guess, and the Dominion of Canada.

But I still recognize that my primary allegiance is to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so I'll be a loyal subject of, well, now King Charles, but my primary loyalty is to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so I'll do these things as a citizen of the United States. I'll file a tax return. I'll do the things that they require. I'll be a loyal subject of King Charles. But I'm primarily a child of the King and a servant of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so, yeah, we do have responsibilities to the nations we live in. And there are rights and responsibilities of being a resident and a citizen of an earthly kingdom.

But we always remember that we do have another citizenship. And that's where our primary—that's where our primary loyalty is. And one of the things that the United States government said was, "You have to think about it. If you become a citizen of another country, what if those two countries go to war? Who are you going to—what are you going to do? You could be drafted by both countries." And we have to recognize there are times when the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this earth are in conflict. And in those moments, our primary loyalty is to the Kingdom of God.

And that's where we default to. So you're saying primary allegiance to Jesus and his kingdom. What would you say to someone who says, "Well, absolutely, I believe that. And because that's my primary goal, I believe I should become involved in voting nationalism, the political system here in America or wherever their country is." And they believe that that's the best—that is a great way they can serve Jesus and his kingdom. What would you say to that? Again, does this come back to, "Well, you have the methods wrong," or is there more to it? Yeah, what do you say to someone like that?

Well, I feel like if I'm going to get engaged in the politics of a nation, whether it's the United States or Canada, I can begin to see that involvement as politics, as the solution to the problems of the country. And it's very limited in what it actually can do compared to what the Kingdom of God can do. And so I want to be so busy in the Kingdom of God that I don't have time to really figure out who is the best politician to be in power.

And I think it's also a conflict of interest. If the president of the United States is the commander in chief of the military, how can I be part of appointing somebody to be the commander in chief of the military when I just think, "I mean, I can't participate"?

So then I think I'm in a conflict—I think I'm in a conflict of interest if I'm voting and if I'm getting involved in the political process.

Yeah, that is a really good point because if you're involved in the process of appointing the commander in chief, but also holding to a stance of nonviolence or radical enemy love or however you want to say it, and then say there is a war in the draft and that commander in chief now asks you to serve or requires you to serve, and you say, "Well, no." That does seem like that's not consistent, really, at all.

Yeah. And I think that there are people then that say, "Well, you're just benefiting then from what the rest of us are doing. And we're getting involved politically." And so the whole thing of, "Well, if good people do nothing, then evil reigns. And so if you don't vote, if all the good people don't vote, then we're going to have bad politicians," right?

But it's not an either-or situation. It's not either I vote. I can do other things. So I can be active in my community. I can be doing things that will bring change to my community. I'm not engaging in the political system to bring change, but I'm getting involved in a food bank. I'm getting involved in a fire department. I'm getting involved in things in the community where I'm having an impact on the community, and I'm engaging with the homeless community or whatever it is.

So it's not like I'm—it's not like I'm a good person doing nothing. I'm a good person doing things, but it's not the political things. And so it's not like, "Well, it's either politics or nothing." It's like, "Yeah, good people need to do something, but it doesn't have to be politics. There are other ways to bring change to the world." And I think that the other things are actually probably more lasting, have more long-term lasting effects than politics.

But if we're not doing anything, if we're not willing to expend our energies and perhaps even put our lives at risk for the sake of the Kingdom of God, then the accusation that we're just benefiting from what other people are doing is justified.

That's interesting. Because, yeah, I've definitely heard that, too. I mean, different service members and things like, "Well, hey, you guys are getting a free pass from all our hard work of maintaining this system of the country of America, essentially."

The other thing we have to recognize, though, is that the practice of our faith and the wealth and not the wealth, but the well-being and the welfare of the church is not dependent on a particular political system. That's an excellent point. Yeah. So people say, "Well, you know, the country is going into authoritarianism or into communism, and it's going to be really bad." Not necessarily. The church has prospered under some pretty adverse political systems. And so we don't need to protect a certain form of government or a certain system of government in order for the church to be healthy and to prosper. And so it's a bit of a fallacy to think that we really have to fight for our political system and we really have to fight for our religious freedoms or the church is going to be extinguished.

No, it's not. It might actually be really healthy under an adverse political system. Yeah, that is an excellent point. That could very easily be a fallacy of like, "Well, if it wasn't for the strong military of the United States, say, the church here would not continue as it is."

But yeah, you're totally right. I mean, if you study history, the church does not need a particular system to survive. I mean, the church thrived under Roman persecution, for example, like the early church. I mean, that was basically unlike any persecution levels that we've seen recently for the church. And it thrived. It grew. And I think that's pretty important. I think there's this fixation or obsession with power going on here of like, "We have to get control of this." Maybe it's the human desire of feeling in control of something and not being afraid of the unknown. Maybe we'll lose this that we have. I think you made a really good point about we've never lived in a place this long without getting persecuted, the Anabaptist people.

And so that's maybe making some shifts in how we perceive what's important, maintaining the status quo, maintaining the right power structures to keep us from getting persecuted again, perhaps. I'm a bit rambling here. I'm not a historian, so I don't want to say things that are incorrect, but it does feel like that has got to play into it.

So it's very easy in conversations like this to focus on all the things that we don't do. We don't vote. We don't go to the military. We don't this. We don't that. And I guess that's all fine and good. But those that criticize our position, what is a legitimate response that we can say that we are functional members of society and contributing in other ways, just not in the ways of involvement in the political system or the military system? Talk me through that.

Well, part of it is the things that we—the positive things that we do do. And just in the whole area of abortion, we do foster care and we do adoption. And we do things to support single mothers and families that are struggling. And so we get involved in those kinds of things. And so look out where we live, where the churches are operating a food bank. And there are people that they're housed, but they're really struggling. And if their lives get much more dysfunctional, they will lose their housing. But providing food is one way of helping them to be able to at least stay housed and stay functional as a family. And so we do those kinds of things.

So there's things that we do in our communities, but there's also things that we do internationally with more of a global perspective when you think of the migration of people and refugees and some of the crises around the world. We go there. We provide medical care. We provide help for people living in refugee camps. We get into situations where there is poverty, and we work to bring change and to help for people to experience development and to get a vision of what they can do and how they can bring change into their lives and their communities. And so we become very active because we know that the gospel is good news to the poor. And Jesus came to release the captive.

And so we're doing those things because we do believe that changes can come into the world.

So that's, I think, an important piece where you're saying transformation and change, restoration, and so forth is very possible. The issue is fixating on the wrong methods. Is that a way of saying it? Yeah. Again, the obsession with power.

That's the thing with politics that always has bothered me. It's just this push. We got to get our guys in power. Get on top of this thing and push our way. And it tends to just feel so aggressive. And you look at what Jesus did, and it was not that. He didn't go around trying to dominate and get in power and get as big a crowd around him as possible. There's multiple times throughout the New Testament where he sends the crowds away, which is so counterintuitive, at least for us here in America. It's like that's not really how we tend to think. It's like, "How much influence can we get? How can we dominate this situation and push for real change?"

And one of the problems is when politics courts the church, then the church doesn't gain power. It doesn't gain control. It becomes a support group for a political party. It becomes an interest group for a political party. And a political party will do just enough to make the church people think that they're going to do what they want. But it gets intermingled with all the other interest groups that they have, the oil industry and the pharmaceutical companies. And then there's the church. And so it just becomes a support group for the political party. And it doesn't really gain control. And as a matter of fact, it kind of dilutes, I think, the power of the church in the community because then we become identified as, "Oh, yeah, you support that political party."

So then there's a whole segment of people that just kind of say, "Well, we'll write you off then." And when our position is nonpolitical, when it's not tied to a political party, then it's just more powerful because you're not being co-opted by a political party.

One of my friends was—he gave a lecture at, I think, Ohio State University about Anabaptism. And after he was finished with his lecture, the professor said to him, "I don't think you people realize the power of your position. And the power of your position is that you're not tied to a political system or a political party. You're operating totally outside of that whole sphere.

It's actually bringing change through a whole different system. And it's at much more of a grassroots level where people's hearts and lives are being changed, and people's desires are being changed, and people's lives are being changed. And then that brings change to—changes society at large." But it seems at first maybe more insignificant, and maybe it takes longer. But I think the changes are more long-term. I was going to say it does seem like it takes longer, but is more enduring or is lasting. Again, using the example of Jesus, three years at the end of it, and he has 11 disciples.

And then it's quite a number of years yet till the church gets to any substantial numbers within the Roman Empire. But it was like this slow, almost like a patient, slow development, but it was so much more enduring. It had so much more resilience to it. So as we think of all these things, we've hit a bunch of different angles to this conversation. I'm sure there's a lot more. There's lots of different opinions out there. But for those listening to this, what are ways they can get involved? What are some things they can do now that do side with those longer, enduring changes, those deeper impact in people's lives? And especially pulling back from whatever country they're in as they listen to this and say, "Actually, I want to focus on Jesus' kingdom and building that because that's something so much bigger and lasts so much longer."

How do they go about that? How are ways they can impact society around them, their neighbors, based on the things you've been sharing here? Yeah. Well, I think it's, first of all, the power of community and being connected to a community of faith. And then that community of faith becomes a platform for doing what needs to be done in the community and learning to know our neighbors, just connecting with the people around us and knowing the five people who live closest to us and building relationships.

And the Kingdom of God, it's working in the world, but it's also invitational. You can be part of this. And as we build relationships, we impact society around us in positive ways. And it's invitational in which you can be part of this. This is for you. And I think we get engaged in things that will provide wealth, provide health and well-being in our communities. And there's a whole concept of, well, the Hebrew concept of shalom, which we often think of as peace, but actually it's more comprehensive than that. It's like a whole concept of well-being. It's working for everyone. And so we work for that in our communities. And you can suppress violence with greater violence.

So whoever has the biggest gun can, but you don't solve the problems. All you do is suppress violence. Or you suppress dissent because you have more by the use of force. But when you step aside from the use of force, then you can deal with the issues and the problems to where you really bring well-being to the community and you work for a society that really works well for everyone.

And then you don't need force. You don't need to use force to suppress bad behavior and violence because you're really working for well-being. And so I think we work for the well-being of everybody in the community and do that through whatever avenues. But the community of faith, the church becomes the platform to do that.

And not some national system or something like that or a political entity. It's God's people working together for the betterment of the people around them. Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's really good. I hope this episode is inspiring to some people to not the typical bashing on nationalism, which is kind of easy to do. Like, "Oh, politics, it's so..." And that's true. Politics is kind of a mess and so forth. But actually, I'm hoping we'll come away from hearing this and say, "Okay, but how can I get to know my neighbors? How can I help the widow down the street? How can I better society in that way and contribute in that way?"

Especially, again, we're going into election here soon in America, and there's going to be a lot of time spent watching the news or reading the articles or talking about it and all this stuff. And what if we would turn all that energy towards helping your neighbor? It's really easy to talk about how terrible things are, but actually going out and helping someone is actually hard sometimes.

Is there anything you would like to say as we bring this episode to a close? Well, the first presidential election that I remember in my lifetime was 1960 when Richard Nixon was running against John F. Kennedy. And there was a lot of pressure in Anabaptist communities. "You must vote for Nixon.

If we have a Catholic president, we're going to be under the Pope. And we're not going to have religious freedom like we're going to have a state church. And we cannot have Kennedy as president." And well, Kennedy won the election, and we still have religious freedom. And Nixon didn't turn out to be a very reputable person in the long term either.

And it's just a reminder that things aren't always as they appear in the moment. And I think in almost every election in my lifetime, people have said, "This is the most important election ever. If you don't vote this time, this is everything.

We're just going to lose our freedom. Everything's going to be lost." And people on both sides of the political spectrum. Yeah. That's interesting now that you say that. I'm thinking back to all the elections that I've lived through. It seems that it always comes out somewhere. "Oh, this is the most important election of our lifetimes." Every time it's that. Yeah. But when you think back 20 or 30 years, the person who won didn't turn out to be a disaster that the other side predicted. So I just think we overrate the importance of politics, and we underrate the power of the Kingdom of God.

I think that's an excellent point to end it on. And with that encouragement of pour into God's kingdom, build his kingdom, and focus on that and serve your neighbors and love your enemies. Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing, Merle. I appreciate you coming on. You're welcome. Yeah.

Thanks for listening to this episode with Merle Burkholder. If you found this topic interesting, we actually produced an entire audiobook on this topic by David Berso. It's called In God We Don't Trust, and you can find it linked down below. You can get it anywhere you get your audiobooks. Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.