Extend Your Tables into the Wilderness of the World - Bryant Martin

We know, um, that the follower of Jesus should for sure not be xenophobic, but the challenge for us is to actually exhibit, um, live out this idea of philia xeno, to love a stranger, um, as a brother.

Bryant, it's been a number of years since we did one of these podcasts with you, and I've been looking forward to this for a while. Uh, yeah, I really—I've been wanting to have this conversation with you for a good while now. And you did a presentation that I got to sit in on a couple of years ago. It's really stuck with me. Um, it was something along the concept of Tables in the Wilderness, I think was the title. And there's a lot of other pieces with that that we want to get into, but why don't you start us off with explaining what even is that concept? Like, Tables in the Wilderness, what are you referring to there, and, uh, yeah, let's just jump right into it.

Sure. So Tables in the Wilderness, uh, is my title for a talk around hospitality. Um, so we think about our world as a wilderness. You look at what's happening in our world everywhere you look, uh, from just looking at different, um, aspects of human life in different parts of the world to geopolitics, um, and you zoom into your own community, we just see a lot of brokenness, right? So our world is a wilderness. We kind of look at that, and then we go into what we're called to do as ambassadors of Christ, um, in bringing heaven to earth, if you will. Uh, and so we talk about Tables in the Wilderness and how that each of us has a table, right?

We might not have our own physical table, um, but we all have a table, and we look at how tables are just symbolic, um, of human flourishing. Um, they're symbolic of a meal. They're symbolic of friendship, of acceptance. Um, you look through, you know, Jesus, uh, God has prepared us a table in the wilderness there, Psalm 23. You look at the word table all through the narrative of Scripture, you see this idea of God, uh, through his people, um, being his hands and his feet. Uh, and so there's so much that's packed into that idea. And so the Tables in the Wilderness is—was a title that I have given to that idea of hospitality and how we as Christians, um, who are followers of Christ, how we are to—uh, how we could posture ourselves, uh, in the world today.

What does that look like? It can look like many, many, many different things. It can look like, for us, uh, for my family, uh, we have obviously our own table we invite guests up to, um, but we also have a café, um, where we serve many guests there. So, um, but it can—it can look like, um, going to a park, you know, meeting your friend at the park. It can look like meeting somebody at a coffee shop. It can look like even just as simple as being generous with your attention. So we're thinking, you know, tables is, you know, is a quote idea, right? Really, it's a place of acceptance. And so, um, the one book here that I have by John Tyson, A Beautiful Resistance, he talks about how, um, just giving people our attention is so generous, especially in a world that's so distracted and so consumed with their devices that we're not even interacting anymore.

And so to just give somebody your attention for a short time is so generous, is so meaningful to people. And there's even the idea of just like even eight seconds of your time, just eight seconds of your time can impact people so much. And so we talk about that at Sowers, when we're taking care of our guests at the register, even just to—just to, um, wish them a good day or welcome them, even to ask them one question, just to show them a little bit of interest, um, just for a short time, can really, um, be meaningful to people, at least when they don't expect it, right? Um, so yeah, so it can be—it's a very, very, um, diverse subject of what that could look like.

I think one of the things that I've learned a lot from you over the years, uh, we've known each other for a number of years now, actually. I was thinking about that. Like, it's—yeah, it's been really neat, you know, going to your café, being in your community. Uh, we run into each other in lots of different places.

But I've always appreciated your understanding. I'm trying to think of the right word to even frame it, but the way you articulate and understand the concept of hospitality, which is, I guess, another way of saying, really, those Tables in the Wilderness. I love that mental image. Go into more of hospitality. Like, what even is hospitality? Like, I feel like that's almost undervalued or, I don't know, it's like, yeah, okay, that's cool. We'll try to do that. But you've helped me see that it's a lot more than that. It has so much more power that we could tap.

Let's explain to me the, I guess, some of that untapped power that hospitality can have. Well, maybe I'll just ask you, okay? From your upbringing, when you think about hospitality, what comes to your mind right away? You know, that's interesting you ask that. My parents had a home environment that was very open to people who needed a place. Yeah, that's definitely the thing that comes to mind. Someone who might, um, need a safe place to be for even just a short period of time or someone to—they, um, we had one person working for dad who was in a very bad situation. He couldn't even afford food, and so we'd have him for lunch. You know, things like that.

Um, that really made an impact on me. That's what I think of when I think of hospitality. But I'd be curious, what do you think? Yeah, and that's really good. Yeah, and I think many of us have been blessed by parents who are hospitable, kind of in the Anabaptist tradition. I would say that's been—that's one of the talents, the gifts that we've been given, that we have. Um, and then we—but then if we could just see it, you know, and then steward it, I think we could have a huge impact on the world around us and advancing God's kingdom. Um, and so, yeah, absolutely. So I had, you know, I had a dad who was much the same way.

And I've met your father too, and he seems like a very warm person. So I'm not surprised to hear you say that. So, yeah, hospitality, that's the Greek word or the biblical, if you look in the Greek of the New Testament, the word hospitality is actually philia xeno. So I'm sure I'm kind of butchering the Greek there a little bit, but it's the idea of philia, you know, is one of those numerous Greek words to describe love. So philia is love of brother, or to love like a brother. Think of Philadelphia, right? City of brotherly love. Philia is to love like a brother. Xeno is stranger. So it means to love a stranger as your brother.

Um, and even kind of has the idea too of, um, even in the face of resistance or the face of evil, to like overcome evil with good. It's even kind of in that whole idea. And so, um, you know, in the times of Jesus, you know, and Bible times, strangers meant danger, like stranger danger. I mean, that was just—that was just innate. I mean, and it's in us today. Now, we live in a world that is so diverse. Most of us do, where we see many different ethnicities, you know, in a given day. Whereas for them, it wasn't really the case, right? And so when a stranger came into the village, it's like danger, right?

Who is this person? You're skeptical. You're fearful. It could be the enemy, right? And so, uh, and so in that culture, you know, you have Paul and the apostles and you have Jesus showing and exhibiting this incredible love of stranger. Now, just to juxtapose this idea a little bit, just to kind of help us maybe see it in a little better color, um, in our world today in pop political culture, the word xenophobia gets thrown around quite a bit. Oh yeah! And I always enjoy, you know, asking people when I'm giving that talk of hospitality is, you know, a lot of people have never heard of philia xeno, but they've heard the word xenophobia. And it's often the left accusing the right of being xenophobic because they want a wall, you know, built, you know, to keep out immigrants.

And so they're xenophobic, which means, uh, fear of strangers, like a visceral fear, right? Um, you know, if you have a phobia, you—it is something that will—you will flee, you will run, you will go the opposite direction. So xenophobia is that kind of fear. And so we know, um, that the follower of Jesus should for sure not be xenophobic. But the challenge for us is to actually exhibit, um, live out this idea of philia xeno, to love a stranger, um, as a brother.

You made a point there of like, in our culture, we do have—I'm not even sure the way to describe this—almost undercurrent of, yeah, hospitality, right? You know, yeah, we'll have someone over for a meal, for example, which is a bit rare.

In American society, you just don't have people over into your home very often. And like for Mennonites, it's pretty normal, right? Um, but yeah, maybe we don't quite realize what a special gift that is. Like at the core, you know, what is it that there might be some untapped power there? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there are different resources that you can look at to kind of help you, uh, imagine. Um, and I think of like, I think of Gary Miller's book, Reaching America. You know, he's got a whole chapter on hospitality. Um, I mentioned, uh, A Beautiful Resistance by John Tyson. He's got a whole chapter too on this idea of hospitality.

And then I also Rosario Butterfair's book, which I mentioned that in my hospitality talk here a number of years ago, of the gospel comes with a house key. You know, I think it might have been you, actually, is where I heard about that book. And I listened to the audiobook and was just really like, whoa, okay. It helped me see that in a new way of how do I view home and opening my world to others in a loving way. Like, yeah, it just made me see it in a different way. Yeah. So, you know, the hospitality, you know, is, you know, people think of their homes as their space. It's where they get away.

That's their space. But when we as Christians see it as a gift to be stewarded and then bring people into that, it feels very intimate. It feels, wow, you are serving me like this. And it doesn't feel like a program. You know, you can do an event at your church. That's a program. And people are like, you know, hey, there's a lot of people that are quite skeptical of programs because it's just another one of those things that Christians do, you know, just to check, you know, to check. Um, but when you bring people right into your home and share your time, share your food, share your space, that really says a lot. Uh, it can really, um, speak to people.

And so hospitality, whether in your home or, um, stewarding it, you know, in, um, even, even in your business, it can be any business. It doesn't have to be in the hospitality industry, like a café or anything like that. But stewarding hospitality, that love, that kindness, that welcome can go so far. So tell me more on how this concept can be used to reach into our communities, our hometowns, our neighbors, um, and also explain some of the power of transformation that can come out of this. Sure. So, um, you know, as you know, um, I run a café. We've been there 10 years now. Um, and so, uh, using hospitality or the hospitality industry, you know, as a way to not only make a living, um, not only as a way to bring value to your community, you know, offering a place where you're, where people can come and get a, you know, a good meal, a healthy meal, um, you know, brings value to your community.

But you can also then steward that space, um, with the vision of that love of stranger. And through that, you can become people's friend, um, over time. It's not fast. It's typically a long game, but you can become really good friends with them. Uh, and so I think of just yesterday, I got a message from my friend over in Brundy, um, who was at Sowers, uh, or was in State College for a number of years to become really good friends. Um, or it could be my, my, um, uh, former Catholic or a current Catholic friend who he and I have had many conversations about, uh, Christianity, um, who is now out in Cincinnati. Um, so, you know, over time, you can, you make, you make friends with these people and, and you get to know them on a, on a first name basis.

I think of another gentleman who, um, is very quiet and, um, but he comes to our café almost every day. And recently, um, we had a service there with the baptism and we invited him to that. It's actually my son. And knowing our family and knowing our café, he came to that and that was an experience like that that he'd never had before. Actually, there was another Russian man that was there too, from one of our, one of our, um, guests. And so, um, over time, you know, using, um, hospitality, that love of stranger, you can, people can become your friend. And I think that we live in a time and culture where everyone is skeptical of anyone.

And so who are you? Um, what is, what drives you? Why are you being kind to me? Um, I have no idea who you are. So why would I even be interested in knowing what you want to share with me? Using hospitality in, in many different ways, you can slowly, um, warm them up where they become your friend and they begin to ask questions. There's this great quote by, um, by Leslie, Leslie Newbig. And he says this, "We must live in the kingdom of God in such a way that it provokes questions for which the gospel is the answer." Ooh! And so, oh, I love, and I really, you know, and actually, um, I think too of 1 Peter 3:15, that when they ask of you the question, Mm-hmm, uh, and then share with them the hope that is within you and to do it with meekness and fear.

Mm-hmm. And so, um, to me, hospitality, whether inviting strangers into your home or using it, um, you know, in your business or in a café model, which I think, uh, you have a lot of repetition of guests coming in, right? You need your coffee and food every day. So you can more quickly, it kind of time warps relationships, if you will, where you get to know people more quickly. And then they can, and you make yourself accessible, right? Where they can ask that question. So why? Why do you, why are you kind to me? Or why, um, do you live in this way? And so when they ask that question, and so I think that our lives should be ordered in such a way that we're anticipating that question.

We're praying for that question. Um, because when people ask that question, and then we know that, hey, they're thinking, um, here's an opportunity, and then to take it, um, and take advantage of that time, really, um, and lean in and share that hope that's within you. And so, um, so from my perspective, that that's the, that's the beauty of hospitality is opening yourself up, making yourself accessible to those people around you. And so, you know, we have Sowers. Uh, when we started Sowers, we had the vision of seeing, of, of seeing more Anabaptist people using that model, um, to make a living and to maybe even move into more urban city, city areas where they can, you know, make a living and also use it as ministry.

That was kind of the vision behind Sowers. And here we are 10 years later. And, you know, we've, we've, we've found many opportunities to get to know people, to share Christ. I feel like we're only scratching the surface. We have a lot of areas to grow in this, um, and are really praying about the next 10 years of how can we really, you know, maybe in some ways, we kind of figured out how to serve food. We have a lot of people who want our coffee and our cuisine, but how can we then steward that to share the gospel? Uh, and so, uh, that's something we're really praying about and doing a couple of things in that area right now to, to see exploring that.

Yeah, I think that that was what I was wondering, actually, where you have maybe on an individual level, hospitality, opening our homes case. We talked about that, right? Um, but then on another level, you have things like businesses, say a café, uh, building a space that people can come into, a safe space that, um, you know, opens up those doors for relationships like you were describing.

Tell me more on how businesses like that, uh, can impact their communities. Like, do you have examples? I guess it's getting more into business, business as an entity for reaching into communities versus maybe us as individuals opening our homes. But I'd, yeah, talk to me about that. Sure. You know, when you ask that question, I think of, you know, right now in, in Amherst, Massachusetts, um, there's a café there that's with, that's with our alliance of cafés, Extend Cafés that we've started, uh, we started this alliance to help people start cafés, um, or cautious entrepreneurs to help them, uh, move into the café world because we, we believe it's a really solid way to impact your community and get to know people.

And, um, so I think of a café in Amherst, Massachusetts, where, um, you know, right now they're, he's, they've been there three and a half years. And so people are just beginning to trust them as a very liberal town. And so it actually kind of started slowly. And we've kind of gathered that people were quite skeptical of this conservative Christian café. Um, but now, you know, they, people are seeing, hey, these people are friendly. Um, they're not trying to stuff religion down your throat when you come in. And their food and, you know, their cuisine and coffee is good. Let's, you know, and so they're really getting a lot of traction with business, which we're thankful for.

Um, but also they're getting a lot of questions and a lot of opportunities, whether it's the, the, the Catholic Student Society that's on campus that comes in and are asking them a lot of questions about the, uh, the Anabaptist faith tradition. Um, or, you know, whether it's, um, uh, the, the lonely, you know, undergrad college student young man who is looking for friends, doesn't hardly have any friends. Um, and he's having, and the one who owns the café is Chuck Artz, is doing Bible studies with him. Um, also, you know, they do a Thanksgiving meal there. I was recently talking with him about that. And last year, they ended up inviting people right off the street who were just coming by from other parts of the world who didn't have anything going on Thanksgiving Eve.

Um, and so they invited them in and they had this meal with them, um, almost like a Luke 14 thing going on there. Yeah, and, um, which was really beautiful. And so there's just, yeah, many different ways that these cafés are, are, are reaching out in their communities, doing in a, and gaining trust and through that, sharing the gospel. Mm-hmm. It's almost like, uh, you're trying to build a space that allows the kingdom of God to break into, into a local community somewhere, you know, whatever that might look like. That's, that's really neat. And like, that's something I think, I think you could have a lot more churches and, and, and people doing that, that kind of thing, right?

I mean, obviously it's a lot of work, but it's a way of reaching into their communities. Yeah, talk to me about that. Like, is that something you think more people could be doing? Sure. Yeah. Uh, I, I think that with, in our world, um, which, you know, the, especially the, the hospitality industry, the restaurant industry is so, so broken, um, because, uh, many of the workers there don't want to work in, in, in that industry that they're just because it's all they could, maybe the only job they could find. And there's a lot of owners who are very greedy. And so the hospitality industry is a desert when it comes to the, the employee, employer relationships and even, even, um, the way people are taken care of, especially now with, with so much of it going to kiosks, the front counter where you just come in and you order on a kiosk.

Um, like just yesterday, I was at a Wendy's and I walked in the door and there was actually a person at the register who smiled and was there ready to help us. Mm-hmm. And that's so unlike so many of the fast food restaurants nowadays because everything's going to kiosks. So they just have workers back, you know, in your kitchen and you place your order. Yeah. And so, yeah, um, you know, with, in, in our world today, there's just so many ways for us to show a different way. Mm-hmm. Um, and that is that, hey, we're not, you know, for a lot of our cafés have, have a lot less hours, or open a lot less hours than your normal café, um, often about 35 hours a week.

And so we're not trying to feed the world. Um, you know, we're just open for, for breakfast, brunch, lunch, um, no evening hours. And we're not obviously closed on Sundays, closed on Mondays. Most of us are. Mm-hmm. And, but we're using it, yeah, we're using it as a way to, uh, show people the love of Christ, um, you know, with a really excellent, you know, coffee, excellent cuisine, um, but yeah, inviting them into that space. So, and absolutely, yeah, I think many people, um, any, any, every church could, could have a café. You know, we like to think that. And I, I like to say that, um, you know, there's, uh, there's people who want to own a café.

Just a lot don't know it yet. Um, is, is kind of logically like to say. So with Extend Cafés, you know, we had the vision of seeing over the next, by 2030, 30 cafés, 30 new cafés kind of within the, the, the kingdom Christian Anabaptist world. Mm-hmm. So people here are strategically using it as a way, of course, to make a living as any business. So this is a, these are for-profit businesses, but strategically seeing as business's mission and stewarding it with that in mind.

Yeah, yeah, that, that, that makes a lot of sense where there's almost this convergence of, um, the concepts of hospitality that, that we have in our culture with business, right? Lots of people in our culture have businesses, um, and then mission. Uh, and you're, you're kind of merging all three of those together, actually, um, as almost, as really a way of that foundational concept. We started this whole thing with extending our tables in the wilderness, um, to a, to a broken world. I, I, I think of this a lot, actually, every time I come into your café, by the way, uh, you just, the, the buzz, you know, and the human interaction is, is wonderful.

And we have an incredibly massive loneliness epidemic all across the, well, we live in America, so I'll only say for America, but I'm guessing probably around the world, right? Loneliness epidemic. People don't really have friends as much as they used to. And there's lots of studies and, you know, whatever. That's, that's really sad, you know, that human-to-human connection is sure a bit lost. Yeah. Yeah, it makes me sad. Yeah. And maybe opening spaces like this is, is a, um, a statement of like, wait a minute, human-to-human connections, friendships, these are valuable. Yeah. These places for bringing people together. I don't know. I like, yeah, what do you think of that? Like the, the loneliness, uh, epidemic and, and maybe that gives us an opportunity for the kingdom of God.

Yeah, absolutely. So at our, at our café, we have these little boxes on each table that have these little tabletop cards. And so you see people coming in, grabbing them and asking, "Oh, man, that's a great question to ask my friend." And they're having a great time just asking for these questions. And there's a lot of dialogue happening. Another thing that we have, um, every February, we have, uh, Heather Holoman, who's actually a Penn State professor, who's written this book called The Six Conversations. Um, highly recommend the book. We actually have them, they're in the corner of a café for free. Um, people grab them. And this book is written from a Christian perspective, um, worldview.

And, but she also incorporates all the latest social science as well about, you know, how loneliness is, is really, uh, harmful to you. And also, and then she teaches, um, in this book, uh, the four, the four mindsets of how to, um, interact with people, plus some other, some other rules of thumb that, uh, equip you to be able to have better, better conversations. And so once a year, we have her come in and do a better conversations workshop. And we've never had so much interest. Um, we'll, we'll, we'll pack out our café with, with every corner that has, has a seat. I think we had like up to 50 some people there attending that.

We've never had that kind of interest before, um, on any other topic. How to have better conversations is the topic. It's called a better conversations workshop. Wow. And so this book right here, I think every person should be, should read this book because it's so, it's, it's, it's so rich. Um, but especially, um, for so many people, especially the Gen Z generation, which, um, has been so impacted by digital, by their phones, by social media, and by the internet, you know, they've grown up with it. I think they've said like by the time they turned 30, they'll have spent like 30,000 hours on just on social media, I think is a term I've seen here recently.

Whoa. Um, so it's off the charts how, how much time these people, these young people have spent online. And it obviously affects you, as we know. And so just having, looking at somebody and having a conversation is really scary. And so that was why she wrote this book, was to equip Gen Z young people, um, to interact with the world and have better conversations and from a biblical worldview. And so it's a, it's a, it's definitely a book that, that I recommend. Yeah, that's, oof, wow. That's a real shortcoming in our current culture then. The, the, the inability to have, um, meaningful conversations, human-to-human interaction is, yeah, is lacking in a lot of places. Even, yeah, you go to McDonald's or whatever and you don't order to, you don't talk to a human.

You know, you just push some buttons and then you never have to interact with another human, right? Oh yeah, it's more efficient. They save money, you know, all of that. But that, that, um, slow erosion of the human-to-human connection in the society at large, it kind of scares me a little bit, actually. And it's, it's like, that feels very sad. Mm-hmm. And, and just, you know, around that whole idea, just today, I read an article where, um, they were saying that like some of the, some of the restaurants in New York City were actually using, um, using people from other parts of the world as servers. So every table will have a screen and that person will actually take their order.

So it's, you know, it's a person, it's a lady sitting, sitting in the Philippines who's actually the server, if you will, or the order taker. And, and, uh, which I, it was not aware, I was not aware of that, that it's actually happening. But the article went on to say that in just a couple of months. AI is going to be taking that totally over. Uh, and so not only do we have, oh wow, not only do we have the restaurant industry moving towards robotics in the kitchen, also, you know, to kiosks, you know, and, and I can understand it because it's, it takes a lot of work to invest in a team. Mm-hmm. But as Christ followers who want to honor, um, people and show dignity to people and invest in people, not only are your guests, you know, um, an opportunity to share Christ with and show Christ to, but also your team.

And so building a team of people, you know, in your café is such an opportunity. And also, and that's one thing we see too with our cafés is the ability to bring in, it's often younger people, uh, maybe young people from, from your, from your church, and you can help them be responsible, help them to communicate because there's a lot of teamwork often in a, in a café setting. And so you can use that space for many, many different purposes, um, just building, uh, really discipling, uh, they hardly know it, but discipling them, um, to be leaders, um, to lead the team where they did, to have a, you know, you know, we have shift leaders every day that every day is a different one, you know, and they have to learn how to shift lead, um, and, you know, organize a team and make it happen.

Um, so there's just many, many different ways that the human part, you know, of a café, um, there's just many, many relationships, uh, and many ways to impact people. Um, so we live in a world that's heading as much as possible towards the automated, away from, yeah, you know, human, uh, touch. Um, but it's a way that, you know, as, as, as Christians, we can say, no, we're not going to do, uh, the way of, of the world. Mm-hmm. But we're going to embrace the old paths, um, and, and, and use people, use humans, uh, in this work. And, and people can tell that difference, uh, a lot. Like for our café, you're not, you're not able to order online or get it delivered.

Uh, many, many places do that. Uh, and that's huge. But you have to come. You can try calling. We don't always answer the phone. We're busy. But you got to come and, you know, come and order at the register. And so really, so you won't, you're not on like DoorDash or something, right? Yeah. Now that's, but that's a pretty deliberate philosophical choice then because someone might make the argument, oh, well, you can make more money if you can do takeout or whatever. Sure. Right. Or if you do DoorDash, whatever. Yeah. I mean, there is quite a market there. Mm-hmm. But also one of the challenges with that is, and this is an issue within the food industry is, you know, when you have that line at the register to order, that's the same time it's busy online as well, people ordering.

So your, your breakfast or your, and your brunch crowd or your lunch crowd or your dinner crowd, um, you know, that's when that line is there, it's the same time people want it, want food delivered. And so what happens is it puts a lot of stress on your team. And so like the, the mental health is a real issue because of the stress and the demand to like serve all these people and people can hardly do it right, right? Like so they, they feel like they're failing all the time. And so when you cut out those things and just take care of that guest right at the register, you're, you're honoring them. You're giving them, you know, you're next.

There's nobody else going to jump in ahead of the queue. You're next and your order will go through like anybody else's. Uh, and also then you can control that a lot better for your team who's taking care of those orders. That's a, that's a deliberate choice though that she had to make where you're saying we're valuing these, these in-person interactions, you know, and we're going to prioritize that. That's, that's increasingly, um, increasingly on the chopping block right now, you know, like AI anymore, they're building in, you can have an AI companion or something that you can talk to. So you don't have to talk to anybody, right? You don't need to have relationships or, um, all the jobs that will go to a computer system instead of a real human.

It can get to the point where you could go through a lot of your days without actually having to have a conversation with someone or at least not a real conversation, not a deep conversation with another human, which is absolutely kind of bizarre. Yeah. I mean, I think the average American, um, only sits down to a table like a couple of times a year. It's, it's, it's incredibly low. Wow. So when I'm just thinking of like, like a table, you know, at home where there's a meal, so where there's somebody actually prepared a meal and you're sitting down with the ones in your household only several times a year, that's happening. Whoa. So when we, because in Mennonite culture, that would be much more, obviously much more common.

Um, that's actually really, really countercultural and, um, almost a statement against a societal norm that we would view as not, not good. Right. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Kind of like almost like a radical statement of position to have a meal around a table. I've never thought of that before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is like people, it's, it's, how do I, you know, how do I pass the food? You know, that's, no, that's right. That, that's being lost, um, in our culture. Yeah. Big time. Big time. Which is, you know, which is when you leave the ways of God, you know, those things that are essential to the flourishing of humanity go away. Mm-hmm. So right before we started this interview, you showed me a new book, um, well, or a new book for me that I'd not heard of.

And it had some really interesting concepts along these lines of those relationships and hospitality and things. Would you mind going through some of the points you had mentioned to me before we started recording? Uh, it was the one with the yellow cover. I don't, I don't remember, I don't remember which, which points, but some of the examples from the life of Jesus and some, yeah. Yeah, sure. So it's A Beautiful Resistance, um, the Joy of Conviction in a Culture of Compromise. But John Tyson, um, this book is really packed, you know, and he's pushing on the idea of that as, as followers of Jesus, you know, we, we do resist, right? But we need to resist in a way, uh, that's, that's, that's the way of Jesus, right?

Not in an angry way, but in a way that's full of grace and full of truth for sure. Um, you know, I think of what John Dee, uh, coined the ideal resistance, right? Oh, right. Uh, with, in terms of non-resistance, which is really a powerful idea. And so we should link that, by the way. We interviewed him about that because when I first heard that concept, it was like, oh, that's like a missing piece went click in my head. Yeah. Um, so, okay. So we're organized around, you know, the idea of resisting evil, right? You kind of, we're not just, we're not just going to roll over and let, let the world go by. No, we have a, a way of living.

Uh, and I, I want to suggest the way of hospitality is a way for us to, to do a beautiful resistance or a quiet resistance, um, to go countercultural, um, in our world today. Um, so, but yeah, he, you know, he talks about how, um, here the, the idea of, of Jesus, um, he says, if you trace the hospitality of Jesus through a gospel, you would find that hospitality, hospitality wasn't one of Jesus' strategies. It was the strategy. So it wasn't many. It was just, it was the strategy. Tim Chester, a UK pastor, outlined the theme in Luke for us. And he goes through all these different, all these different references in Luke where Jesus was either at a meal or going to or coming from.

And he says, in Luke's gospel, Jesus is either going to a meal, at a meal, or coming from a meal. And so we just see, you know, someone has said Jesus ate his way through the gospels, right? So, you know, hospitality is often has to do with a meal, right? And we just think of that. You know, we look through scripture, um, you look at the life of Jesus. It's just, there's this, um, to love a stranger, you know, is often to share a meal together, which is such a radical idea. You look at Luke 24, which is what I call the Emmaus roadmap, the Emmaus hospitality roadmap, right? So Jesus walks and he talks and he dines, right?

And it's in that dining, it's in that eating there with those strangers that their eyes were open. You know, there was something really, um, really, um, powerful that was happening there when Jesus broke the bread, their eyes were open. Oh, this is Jesus here with us. So as we look at Jesus, we see that, you know, he, uh, and you just, you just begin to observe that many, many places. Um, he's, he's, he's, uh, engaging in a meal. Of course, we think of the Last Supper, right?

Um, in the upper room, the last thing together is they have a supper together. And then he tells us as a church, as his people, that we are to do that. There's probably a lot of other examples in scripture, actually. Now that you say that, I've, I've not thought of it in that framework before. But yeah, I'm sure that's all, that's, it's got to be because, um, even I'm thinking, um, Abraham's hospitality, you know, like he's sitting in the outside his tent and God walks by. And it says somewhere in there, like he was walking by, like it wasn't like God came to him. And like Abraham, he ran him down. Yeah. He runs him down essentially.

Yeah. He literally says, he ran to go. He ran down. He's like, no, please come and implores them. Please come into my tent. I will serve you. And I was like, hmm. And then Lot, then his nephew Lot does the same thing, you know, in Sodom where he, he entreats them to stay. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Yes. And it's like, how about that? That's, they, they're putting a pretty high value on that, you know, and, and how, how high value do we put on it? Or is it just, oh, well, it's kind of what we do culturally, which is fine. But if it's just like, well, this is kind of what we do culturally, maybe we're missing some of the deeper meaning and richness and potential that could be there by opening up our tables to a, to a world that is kind of, hmm, a desert wasteland when it comes to loneliness and relationships and good conversations and those kinds of things.

Mm-hmm. Like practically, what, what would you say to someone listening to this saying, wow, I, yeah, I, hmm, I'm feeling like maybe I should make some changes or be more, be more open to, to my neighbors, say, or to open my table up to those around me. What, what's some small steps that they can take right now? Yeah. Begin to pray about it. Hmm. Begin to pray that God will give you opportunities to, as I have said, the Emmaus roadmap, hospitality roadmap, right, to walk with people. You know, you walk with people many places, whether it's you're working with them in your workplace, um, you know, where you go shopping, um, at the library, at the park, um, you know, even, even in your own church meetings, there's going to be strangers there.

There's many places where we walk with people. And so be thinking about where do I, in the, in, in just the mundane contours of life, I mean, there, there's Jesus walking from point A to point B with those disciples.

He's walking with them, which was, that's, that's the way you got from any, from anywhere is you walk. So a very mundane thing, just like us riding in a car, you know, and, and that's what he was doing. He was walking with them, you know, and then he, he talks with them. So walk, talk, dine, right? So he, and, but the way he begins to talk, he actually asks a question like, why are you guys so sad? Hahaha Right? It's like, it's like the, the, the awkwardly, so the social awkward question to ask, right? Why are you sad? But what actually, what Heather Holoman points out is that people actually like when people, when you get asked a question that's a little bit personal.

It's like, oh, this is more than how are you. It's actually this person wants to know something about me that's just beyond, you know, just the what's expected. Yeah. Or like what's the weather? And so it can bring intrigue. Oh, like, why is this person asking of that? And we don't do it because we're often afraid of rejection. We're just scared of other or offending the other person. But Heather, there's actually social, there's actually science to back it up that people actually like a more personal question. So you have Jesus saying, you know, why are you so sad? And then he actually asks a question like, tell me more. Like, no, tell me more. There's like two questions there that he, that he, um, says.

And, and they, of course, you know, they, you know, they just obviously say why they're sad. And then he goes and just elaborates, you know, from, from, um, the Old Testament about this Christ who was going to come. Amazing. I would love to, love to have been on that journey with them to hear that, him unpacking that. Um, and so walk, talk, you know, so find places to interact with, as you walk with people, talk with people in just the mundane, you know, show interest. We mentioned earlier how just a little bit of interest is so generous in our world today or some attention, uh, pay attention to people, show them, ask them questions. And then, um, lastly is the dine.

So yeah, find ways to, to eat with people. And, you know, it doesn't have to be anything fancy at all. Um, it doesn't have to necessarily even be in your, you might not have your own table, uh, but it can be, you know, at a table where you have a meal together. And the most epic hospitality I ever had was experienced was, you know, on a mountain, um, in northern Iraq with, with some, uh, some men who were strangers and I felt scared, invited me to their, you know, to their picnic. Um, so yeah, so we can show this hospitality anywhere. So be thinking and praying about it, watching for it, realizing that it's in the mundane things of life.

Yeah, where this happens. Hmm. I'm just thinking like how much of the life of Jesus that we have recorded is stories of him walking from here to here and someone interrupts him or comes to him with a question or he encounters someone on the way. And, and that's the teaching that's recorded. Like so much of those teachings seem to me at least be very organic interactions with regular people in regular life. Yeah. And that's like a sizable portion of the Bible or I mean, of, uh, Jesus' story. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, hmm, if you were to write down all the interactions I have in the mundane day to day, how many of them would be worth noting?

Like in retrospect, of like, I don't know, like be a little bit convicting, but he's like, he, he was just this really, really good at engaging people. It just, yeah, they come up to him asking a question and he turns it into a teaching moment or something. I don't, I don't even quite know how to formulate it, but it was just something that's been striking, striking me recently. Sure. I'm like maybe a little bit convicting too, because I'm not sure I do that. Yeah. Maybe I'm in a bit too much of a rush. I don't really want to be interrupted right now. Yeah. We have our perfect schedules and calendars and plans. Mm-hmm. And we just don't do well when they get messed up.