Anabaptists and the Sacraments: It’s Complicated! - Dean Taylor

I'm not here to set the Anabaptist view of the sacraments over and against everyone else, as if the 16th century finally solved the riddle. Alright? I don't think the early Anabaptists themselves spoke that way, and I don't think neither should we. Mm.

So, Dean, you've done a lot of teaching and reading and research and writing about historical theology and church history and those types of things, and we're going to get into that. But we did another episode, uh, a while ago about Reformation debates. Yeah. And there's a particular thing that many, many people—Protestants, Catholics, Anabaptists, others—have bled and died for because of disagreements over some of these things. And that's the topic of the sacraments. So we want to do a podcast on that. This is a very big topic and very complicated that has had an enormous amount of theological ink spilled and blood spilled over disagreements about the sacraments. So let's leap right into that. We're going to go right into the deep end of the pool, so to speak, and tear into this topic.

Why don't you start us off setting the stage? What is the sacraments? Why are we using this word? There's a lot of people, I think, in the Anabaptist world, especially to be concerned, or maybe they wouldn't—they'd be skeptical, I guess you could say, of like, what is this terminology? And yeah, lay some groundwork for this topic. Awesome. I've got some slides on this. That's a little out of my order, but that's fine. Let's do this. Let's be able to break through that. Sure. Feel free. So yeah, the term sacraments, you know, um, scares a lot of Anabaptists. It scares a lot of people, and it shouldn't. It's a great word. You know, um, my—as you know, my testimony coming out of the army and discovering the early church that I spent 10 years under, uh, uh, right when I came out of the army with Dave Rousseau and studying the early church, and we've really embraced this rich sacramental language of the early Christians.

Um, coming into the Anabaptist, it's—it's—it's a topic that's very controversial, and I have noticed that a lot of times it's just not said correctly. When you go then, as many other things, as you start reading the sources and you read the things, you realize, okay, that's not really presented correctly, that there's a deeper and a richer meaning there than we're—than we're representing. And so the word sacrament itself is one. I have a slide here. So, um, just the different terms that people use for the sacraments. Ooh, yes, please. Okay. Okay. So sacraments, it comes actually from a Latin word that has more of a—it's an interesting word that's kind of lost sometimes in the East.

It's like a pledge. And it's used typically more now in the—in the Eastern sense of a mystery, which we get the Holy Mysteries from the Greek Orthodox or the Greek, you know, position, and just calling it a mystery. And the sacramentum was the Latin equivalent of that. But yet, if you read the—the early church, particularly the Latin writers like Tertullian and such, they bring out this side of an oath of allegiance or a pledge. And so you see that in coming out in—and even things like at their baptism, and we look at the creeds that come out and that kind of a thing, and how they make—they're making this pledge closer to the way maybe we would imagine, uh, a marriage.

So you're saying Tertullian. So, right? You're—you're—what era in history is this? Okay, we're talking about 200, 220. Yeah. Okay. So this is really early. Yeah. Really early history. This is over a thousand years before the Anabaptists even show up. Yeah. Okay. The early church. Sorry. No, no, you're good. You're good. So, so with that, you know, it's a—so sacraments comes from that, that idea, but it carries both in the ancient Latin and the ancient, um, writers, um, this more idea of pledge and sacred oath, um, but also a—a mystery. And it's used that way, um, typically. Holy Mysteries is, as again, just mysterion, the idea. And I like that one a lot because it's—it's not quite as defined, uh, in—in—in many of the—the—the, um, Eastern way of thinking this and also many of the early Christian writers.

Um, I think that could be overstated, but still, I think that that's, uh, a good word. Some just call it a command. Um, and this is where we get to the next word would be ordinance. And our—and a lot of our statements of faith, particularly those that were written after fundamentalism that's affected us in the 1920s and such, um, you really get a more emphasis on calling these ordinances, um, which comes to the idea of, you know, something that was ordained, that was stated, you should do this. The tendency with that word, it's a good word. I still love it. Use it, uh, um, is that it tends to stress the command side of it.

And so it comes out a little bit legalistic sometimes where we're doing something because it's commanded. Um, and that's all. You know, it could be like, there's nothing else that's happening. We're merely doing this because it's commanded. And that can come out of the—the baggage of using that word. They all have baggages by themselves. Traditions, handing down the traditions, uh, you know, could be used. And some people use that. It's certainly biblical language. A memorial is a big one. Oh, right. Okay. I've heard this one. Yeah. Memorial. So what's a memorial? Do this in memory. The scripture is very clearly stated. And you—you hear the early church holding on to both a very much of a real presence side of this and a memorial side of this.

And you'll see that. And I'll show you some passages for that. Um, a memorial can be used. And the next one I would say, and then there's probably many others, but a rite, uh, the—the—and R-I-T-E, you know, and this is more like a, uh, something closer to a sacrament, a formal prescribed thing that we do. And those are different ways that we even use this term, um, you know, sacraments. I like sacraments. Um, I don't mind ordinance, particularly within the Anabaptist people that I have, uh, placed myself, which I am very happy to be there. Uh, but the, um, those are terms that I—I like. I like the general concept of mysteries. So why not use the term ordinance?

Like, are—when you're saying sacraments here, are you saying basically different term for the same thing? Uh, yeah. Walk me through that because I'm sure at least all our Mennonite listeners are going to say, oh, we're a lot more comfortable with hearing ordinance. Actually, um, earlier, as I was prepping for this, I was—I grabbed a Doctrines of the Bible, right? You were talking about how the, um, the fundamentals, you know, and about a hundred years ago and the writing of a lot of this stuff. And Daniel Kaufman uses a lot of ordinance language. He has the seven ordinances that he lists out and so forth. That's a much more comfortable and familiar, I'm going to guess, for many of our—I'm not going to say all, but for many of our Mennonite listeners.

Talk to me about that. Are those—are you saying they're the same thing? Are they different? Give me some nuance. It's a good question. Um, you know, there's a lot of nuance in all those. And all the—the—the vocabulary, I think, has baggage attached to it. So, you know, it's funny. I will use it in different ways depending on what I'm—what I'm teaching on. Um, but it's—I—I like sacraments, but I understand, and you're going to see during this lecture, I understand the caution.

Because what the—the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics have done to the sacraments using this term and misunderstanding the real presence of Christ within the community, um, is—is very bad. And so with that baggage, I think that, um, I can understand a caution who a brother says, you know, it's just so loaded with all this baggage that came along with that term. I don't like using it. So here's an example that just immediately comes to mind. I could be way off, right? But I hear something like sacraments. I'm thinking, oh, the—the Catholic Church or one of the Orthodox churches, and they're saying, you know, transubstantiation and all of this. And I'm over here thinking, well, yeah, but my ancestors were burned at the stake for not agreeing with that.

Therefore, sacrament's bad. Right. Right. Like that would be a not much of a logical leap. I'm going to guess for listeners. No, it's not a lot—it's not. And I think it's fair. Okay. Um, because in the, you know, there's—there's levels that you look at this in the geeky, um, um, scholarly ways to decipher what is happening and all that. There's one level, okay? And you could say, okay, I could kind of follow and track what these, um, Roman Catholic apologists are saying or whatever. And I can track with that or whatever. And then there's the reality of—of what it's experienced. And this is big to the Anabaptists. And this—I'm going to get into that when I—when I explain that, is that it's not the same.

Ooh, yeah. And—and again, we—all our Catholic and, uh, Orthodox listeners, you know, because we have some of those, are probably going to be like, oh my goodness, this is, you know, right? This, and it just shows how controversial this is because they're going to very much disagree with you. And I'm sure the comments down below on this are going to be really interesting. Yeah. And yes, please do put comments down there because we do read those. And actually, this episode on this topic is because we got so many comments from so many different people with so many different opinions on this very thing. I'm like, okay, we got to do a full episode on this and really unpack that because it feels like this is even a hard topic and conversation to have because there's so much baggage.

Baggage, right? Like hundreds and hundreds of years of debates and disputations and executions, even in extreme cases. Well, in some cases, it wasn't very extreme. It just happened because you disagree, so we will kill you. Okay. So this is really helpful. We're laying some groundwork. Where would you like to take it from here? Where—where—how do we actually get into the deep end of not just definitions now? Where—yeah, let's go. When I was trying to prepare for this message, you know, for this podcast, I was trying to think, oh, how do we go back and forth? There's a lot I'd like to cover because I think there's a lot of preconceived, uh, things that are thought about, you know, this.

So I have prepared some things, but let's make it where you can engage in it, you know, and you can break it up and say, hey, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, go back to that or something like that and stop my train of thought. I brought several images and things because I think it brings, um, we're kind of have to break out of just what's on paper, which is the emphasis on the, on the, um, early church and the early Anabaptists is into the day, what's reality? What's your life like? What's—what's happening in the sacraments that you're claiming, uh, is—is big to them. And you'll see that. So anyway, so let's go in there and then feel free to stop me and all that kind of thing.

Um, I will say this. I should say that this is—this is a very loaded topic. And I don't want to give it any impression that I have come up with all this research myself. As a matter of fact, I have been very indebted to many from both the Catholic and the, uh, the the Protestant and Anabaptist writers. I have a slide here that I just—I was trying to just jot down, even preparing for this. Some of the—the people who've really put a lot of work into this, and Robert Friedman in the 1940s and such, one particular, um, good scholar lately is John D. Rimple, and he's done several things on the sacraments, which I have found very helpful.

Joe Schmidt has one. You'll see that I'm going to be mentioning too. Arnold Schneider has done really good stuff. He has an amazing article on the using the os bund and how that was related. I'll be referring to on another episode, I think. Trip York. Uh, John D. Roth, um, is just all the things he's brought together, and even some of his things and his stories and his ordinances and things that he talks about, I think are good. Thomas Finger, uh, was a writer, contemporary Anabaptist theology, has written some very interesting things. There's a, uh, an article by Michelle Ferguson on MARPEC, which I found very helpful. It's out by, uh, I have it quoted in here.

David Brissot, of course, has been a big inspiration for me. All of his writings through the early church has—has been excellent. Everett Ferguson is a—is a, uh, people don't give him enough attention. I think he's a very honest scholar. We don't always agree with everything, but his—his research, I think, is very good. And I've been very blessed by Everett Ferguson and particularly his work on the early church and some of the things he says on the sacrament. Yeah. I had him, uh, some of his work as textbooks for, uh, a course on early church history. Yeah. And I just—I loved it. I mean, here's a textbook you're expecting to be kind of boring, and it's like 900 pages and just read the whole thing.

It's so good, you know? So anyways, yeah, yeah, I use that as Zolichan. Uh, he has one on that. I'm Kirk McGregor. Uh, McGregor, uh, amazing article on Hubmar. I'll share. Um, John Baer is an Orthodox scholar. And what you'll really appreciate about John Baer today is, unfortunately, when you get into the internet, you get so lost in people being extremely factious. And this topic is huge with that. As in divisive. And divisive. And like drawing battle lines almost of like, I'm here, you're there. Yeah. And it's really not an honest scholarship. I get very disappointed by some of these writers. And I really appreciate John Baer as even if I disagree with him, I find him to be a very honest scholar.

Like for instance, when there are discussions on apostolic succession or, or, or different things that are there, you'll see him admitting weaknesses that your apologists online are just making a mess of. Yaroslav Pelican wrote some very good books on historical theology. I've really appreciated him. Also Orthodox. Um, there's a cardinal I quote, um, Henry de La Bock, who was a cardinal in the, oh, 1940s, involved in Vatican II and everything. And he really talks about this concept of the body of Christ being the present gathering people and how that was lost in the Middle Ages. It's an excellent book. I'll quote. Gregory Dix was something that, uh, the Brissots and I, we read years ago and his shape of the liturgy, which I think is is excellent.

And so those are some I just pondered as I wanted to give, um, credit to that. Mm-hmm. So, um, in all this, I think we're going to make this episode, I'm going to focus on scriptures in the early church and then look into the early Anabaptists and the principal thinkers, mainly looking at Hubmeyer and, and, uh, MARPEC.

Um, another episode we'll perhaps do on just the Anabaptists, uh, thought and sacraments through the sources themselves. Yeah, I was going to say, I think that's important because people will probably, especially people that are really into this kind of stuff, right? We'll, we'll listen to this and be like, where's the sources? Wait, you didn't go deep enough. Hold on. Don't worry. That, that is coming. We'll do that as a separate one and release it later just because there is so much material here. It felt wrong to try to smoosh it into one. Yeah. Instead, this way we can, we can lay the groundwork and then that next episode is going to go much deeper into the actual source material if I'm getting that about right.

Exactly right. And I hope that that will also, you know, uh, we build on other people's research and scholarship and I love that. And so I would think that some of these, I'm, I'm quoting many of the other scholars that have looked into some of these things and hopefully this can inspire young scholars to be able to say, yeah, I'd like to really dig into the os bund, to really dig into some of these writings of the German Baptists and that kind of thing that are amazing. And, and we're going to do our best, uh, for the listeners to link everything that we can, that, that you reference in the show notes, uh, or YouTube description or whatever.

And then people can go read this stuff or look it up and dig on their own. I think that's going to be really important because I'm sure they'll have questions and, and things like that. So anyways, all right, well, let's, let's go. Okay. So I'm going to start with this image. Uh, and love the interchange here. Mm-hmm. I think that this image here is, is striking. It's in the Martyrs' Mirror, but it brings a scene that I think is, is very impressive to kind of frame the, the fights, the, the arguments, the, the debates of the Anabaptists during the time of the Reformation. So this is 1500s. This is 1500s, 1553, early Anabaptism. We're in the Netherlands and coming through the place here is this procession, Mm-hmm, carrying, um, a monstrance with, you know, the Eucharist that would have been in there.

And that everyone's like, oh, it's coming his way. And he has a little shop. And as he has a little shop, he's like, you know, even this lady, I guess, almost looks like a noble or something is trying to say, you're, you're, you got to come down. You got to, you got to stop. Oh, you had to have to kneel, kneel before. Kneel down it, you know.

And why is because they would believe that this is not just a representation of the body of Christ, that this is actually Jesus himself, which transubstantiation would teach that that means it's not only venerated, not only respected, not only says, you have a theology of the real presence, that you can worship this bread as Christ himself. Oh, oh, okay. So it's commanded that everybody bow when it comes through here. And his, out of his conviction, he couldn't do it. So this is an early Anabaptist saying, yeah, that ain't, that isn't the real thing. It's not the real thing. And I can't do this because this would be idolatry. I can't do this. So the story goes on that they capture him and it doesn't mention specifically, but I assume this would have been Catholic at the time.

Um, he was burned at the stake. Wow. But there's an interesting thing that happens. And I, and I want to emphasize this of what the Martyrs' Mirror goes. It focuses on the bailiff himself, Mm-hmm, who would have, um, been in charge of his execution and what the Holy Spirit was, was putting in his mind about it. And then the Martyrs' Mirror goes on to say this. He says the bailiff who had him executed on returning home from this deed was laid upon a bed of severe sickness and constantly exclaimed with sorrow and remorse, "Oh, Simon, Simon." And although the priest and the monks sought to absolve him, you know, you're forgiven, you know, um, they were nevertheless not able to give him the least comfort.

But he soon died in despair and instructive and memorial example to all tyrants and persecutors. So Simon is the person he just burns at the stake. Right. Right. And this, what, what year is this? This is 1553. Yeah.

So he's like torn up crazy. So, like, so, so forget all your theology. You got to understand that when the Anabaptists are, are talking about these issues and they're rejecting the mass or whatever, you've got to remember that's the reality. See, again, that's kind of how we open this episode. Like these are, these are debates and discussions we have now, but back then this was life and death for some people, which is, and so you're, so you'll see how that plays out in their, in their discussion. So, and I want to say this as a disclaimer, very importantly, this, as I ponder this, I'm not here to set the Anabaptist view of the sacraments over and against everyone else as if the 16th century finally solved the riddle.

All right. I don't think the early Anabaptists themselves spoke that way. And I don't think neither should we. Um, I, the why I didn't want to call it the Anabaptist view of the sacraments, but I want to call it the, you know, is because it's, it is a dynamic. It's something that we, you saw different writers. And I don't, we don't have a work where someone tried to like, this is it. We're going to get it, you know, we're going to tell everyone and be able to define all this.

I truly do appreciate the discussions about the sacraments from my Greek Orthodox, my, my, uh, Roman Catholics, my Protestants. The Reformers have some amazing things to say about it, particularly when you get into like the idea of the scriptures itself being a sacrament. I love that idea of the Reformers. So I say this, I teach this in my class, that if an argument has lasted over 500 years, it's probably not stupid. You get some feedback on that one. Okay. But that, I think that's, that is such a valid point because I have heard some conversations, right? I can't even think of a specific, but it's just kind of in the air when us Mennonites or whatever are having conversation about this and be like, okay, you know, the Catholics or the Orthodox or whatever, that's just dumb that they believe this.

Yes. And, and with the implication mean like we kind of, we kind of fixed this. Exactly. Right. We, we kind of came and corrected everything and we've got it figured out. And, and, and I can't pinpoint even a specific error that's stated. It's just this vibe. And I think you make an excellent point. This is an argument that has lasted a really long time. And we should, we should be humble, approach carefully and acknowledge that it is, it has been very, very divisive. And a lot of people have died over these disagreements, which again, is just really hard for me to get my head around. Yeah. And what a tragedy. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's really at the core is like, this is, this is really sad.

Yeah. That, that it got to that point. So I want to say this that, you know, since I came into the Anabaptists through the early church, um, I guess I've always been in what's kind of, even in, in a small circle, but what we would call like the kingdom movement of Anabaptism, which typically really focuses on the teachings of Jesus Christ, but also usually has a very high view of the sacraments.

In those discussions, and I'm a part of them, um, I don't think it's many times things are said in a very reactionary way, factious way. And I think that they're not understanding the arguments, um, from the Reformers and from the early Anabaptists. And it gets sort of a, this, the way it's presented is just not correct. And so I do want to, uh, part of the reason here is to kind of look at both sides and say, I am very indebted, um, to the things that are said. And I, and they've lasted 500 years. They've lasted a thousand years. Um, these arguments are serious. And I, and I'm still to this day learning from them.

And I don't, I would never argue, hey, just get this little collection of, of, of documents and that's all you're going to do. Yes, this is a deep subject and it deserves to be studied, um, from different writers still to this day, you know? So, and I, and it goes down to this statement here. It's my, my, my verse, my life verse is from Mark chapter nine, have salt within yourself and peace with one another.

Which I, the way I interpret this is that we should be salty. We should have conviction in our life. But at the end of the day, we should try to have peace with one another and to be able to, um, yeah, see where people's different perspective and that type of thing. And so if I overstate things, and I probably will for emphasis in this message, I, I, my heart, hear me is that I genuinely do appreciate the studies of the Orthodox and the Catholics and the Reformers and the, uh, even the very low church, uh, Anabaptists on these subjects. And I think they're important for the discussion. I say this, when we think of our churches, we should be unified until we can't.

And this is why I think the idea of being Catholic with a small c is very important. But as in not Roman Catholic Church, as in Catholic, the meaning of the word itself. Yeah. To go, exactly. It means universal. It means, and well, and I have a slide here that I'm explaining it more and not unified only by accident. So if we take just like five or 15 points that I'm going to, uh, stand on and, and you do that and, and you end up with this kind of factious attitude, boy, it's really dangerous and really ugly. And I think sectarianism is spoken of very strongly in the early church and the scriptures. And we should be very careful in this subject to not fall into sectarianism.

I think it's one of the things that's, that's killed this topic. In saying that, uh, also there's different perspectives within the Anabaptists. I have here, you know, there's the Dutch Mennonites, the Swiss Brethren, the spiritualist wings, which would be like the Hans Hutten them. You have the Hutterites. You have the MARPEC circle, which you're going to hear about the most today, which we didn't even know till the 1930s this was discovered. And his things writing against the spiritualist, um, gave us some, some of our most beautiful insight. Then kind of later, the latecomers, although still very ancient now for us, is the Amish and the German Baptist, um, which we get the Church of the Brethren background.

These bring in a depth to this whole idea of what Anabaptist sacraments are in a very rich way. And I think we should really bring in the discussion that the German Baptists and the Amish bring in to this discussion as, um, yeah, I, uh, part of this package that we would call Anabaptist sacraments. So I love the statement by Hans, uh, Cornelius Dick wrote in his introduction to Hans de Rees. And he says this when he, when he talks about this, what he was referring to is that, okay, there's also all these little, you know, sectarian groups and non-Trinitarian or this little strange group and this group all over. Why aren't those being considered Anabaptism?

And Cornelius Dick wrote this, and I think it's profound. He said, it's helpful, it's helpful to define Anabaptism on the basis of consensus achieved by many Anabaptists over many years in relation to specific doctrines. This is in effect the dictum of Vincent of Lorenz, that the true faith is that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all. Mm-hmm. And he's meaning that in a, in an Anabaptist setting, but it's a really, um, an important statement. Uh, actually in, um, day two, when I teach the historical theology, I have them read through Vincent of Lorenz. Um, he's writing around the, uh, oh, early 400s, late 300s, early 400s. Early church level. Like not, not Ananicing, but it would be getting close to that.

Yeah. Kind of on the edge of that after the Council of Ephesus and this kind of a thing. And he writes a statement and he, and he says this thing that I even hold Vincent to. We hold the faith which was believed everywhere, always, and by all. And I think this is very essential. And so why I'm an Anabaptist is because I honestly think that when we look at the, the emphasis that the early church put on the teachings of Jesus and even what the sacraments produce and you obeying the teachings of Jesus, you get a, a sense that in my opinion is lost later on. Mm-hmm. Um, but that also means though that I'm trying to find where I can, where I can agree, you know?

And so having a Catholic spirit, I'm trying to present that the best I can before I, I go through here and start insulting everybody. So, so, and again, when you say a Catholic spirit, you're referring to Catholic, lower C, Catholic, not Roman Catholic, but as in Catholic, if I'm getting this right, as the, the, that universal, the one body of Christ, if that makes sense. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. Does that make sense? It very much so. And I, I, as older I get, the more I truly see in the early church and in the scriptures, the early church is congregational. Mm-hmm. And, but not isolated. I, what I typically say is they were congregational, yet Catholics, mossy.

They were autonomous, yet accountable. Okay. Yeah. So you didn't have them isolated. They had networks of bishops and working in different ways and like that. But the concept of having a huge worldwide conferences or patriarchs, and there's just no way, none of the, the, the self-respecting scholars are going to say that even amongst the Catholics and Orthodox. But the idea then is that you're still trying to be, there is a faith that was handed down to the saints, and that's part of, of what it means to be, to be a Christian. And so all the way up to the different, you know, late antiquity, late antiquity and, you know, into the, the, the middle ages and, and everything, you have lots of different opinions on the sacraments.

I mean, some people would be arguing much stronger one way or the other way and these different things. When we come to the Reformation, sadly, very strong sectarian lines are drawn by everyone. And this has hurt the ecumenical discussions surrounding the, the sacraments, in my opinion, very bad. Um, so you're, they drew lines that like, you know, at Council of Trent, when the Catholics had their Reformations, sometimes called the counter Reformation, um, they drew lines that it's really hard to back up on. And in my opinion, messes up their theology on the sacraments. The Reformers also, although not quite as strong as that, um, drew some lines, uh, and certainly our different groups of the Anabaptists would have had encumbered some of that spirit as well.

And I think it's unhealthy. As we think of, here's a, an old image of the Council of Trent, and in the midst of that, what's lacking is the very person of Jesus Christ. And I, I think it's just, it's just a shame. But the thing in, in looking at through all these centuries is I want to introduce this word, anachronism. Mm-hmm. Oh, a fun word. Okay. It's really important with the sacraments and really important for any historical theology. Anachronism is this.

Um, I'm trying my hand at some AI pictures so you can see what you think. So anyway, you can see some of it's funny, like what's that cell phone doing down there? Um, anyway, it says a chronological misplacement of persons, objects, or events and a piece of art or literature.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense why the cell phone is there now. Yeah, exactly. So as you're reading these things back to the early church, yeah, to the early Anabaptists, they're loaded with anachronisms. And this happens with the atonement discussion. This happens with different things. And you're like, what are they actually saying? And we do this all the time. So, so like reading something in the context of when it was written. Yeah. Does that, is that a way of saying? Yeah. Okay. All right. So here's a, to give understanding of, so here's a quote from Lincoln, you know, don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it.

Signed Abraham Lincoln. This is a typical anachronism. I, I teach the, the students this, I teach the students this, you know, just to try to remember the word anachronism. It's an important concept. Lincoln has an act for anachronism. He's always coming up in these kinds of things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's sometimes done purposely. Like here you have the image of the Caravaggio made for the calling of Matthew. He used the dress of his day in the Renaissance era, um, to kind of make you feel more like Matthew. Um, or you have the, the conversions of Paul by Bruegel the Elder. And where in the midst of all this invasion of medieval, or excuse me, of, of, uh, you know, 15th, 16th century soldiers coming through, you have Paul being converted.

Oh yeah. So it's almost intentionally contrasting. Oh, I'm not sure I'm getting the right word, but he's jumping back in time. Yeah. But yet bringing cultural elements from his own day to that story. Exactly. And kind of almost meshing them in a weird way, contrasting them. Saying, hey, and at this moment is when right after the build of storm happened in, in 1566, he wrote this, he painted this in 1567. Okay. Invasion is coming of the imperial troops. He wants to put the imperial troops getting converted. What, what, yeah. Okay. That makes it perfect. It's an anachronism, but done on purpose. But it also works bad. Like here's the, uh, what is the early Christian view of the King James Bible?

You know? Oh, yeah. Okay. Um, you know, these kind of questions are loaded in the, in the questions of the sacraments. Um, and so I really would like us to try, I know it's almost impossible, but try to really get into the context of the writers and let the text speak and let the context come out so that we'll understand it. So we discussed the sacraments and the different words and I went into that. But so we're going to focus mainly today on two of the most, you know, biggest sacraments. So, okay. So this is a point then where I'd like to hop in and say, um, what do you make of the seven ordinances that were popularized in the last century?

Like we mentioned that at the beginning is, so you're saying we're taking two here. We're not talking about some of those others. Would you, would you, we're not going to get into those, but I want to grab that as it flies by. You have some, uh, you don't have a consensus. Even to this day, you don't have a consensus, even in the Catholic churches on what the seven sacraments are. Okay. Council of Trent, um, put that in stone that we have these seven sacraments. And then everyone's kind of said, oh, I need seven. So you see, even in our... Well, I was, yeah, I was actually like not to... Oh, okay. Okay.

Just for reference. Okay. Good, good, good. I'm going to read the, the seven that would be listed in the doctrines of the Bible, which would be a pretty standard Mennonite text, you know, that's been around for over a hundred years now, actually. So Daniel Kaufman in Doctrines of the Bible, for example, the seven he lists would say water baptism, the communion, feet washing, devotional covering for Christian women, uh, the Christian salutation, holy kiss, um, anointing with oil, marriage. Right. So we're not obviously going to go through all seven. That would take way too long. You're focusing on the baptism and communion one. Yeah. And why do you think it, it calls the, the, the head covering here, which is a, you know, particular to Anabaptist, not in the ancients, but you know, and, and certainly 1920s on, why do you think that was on there?

What wording is in the scriptures that made us call that a sacrament? Mm-hmm. It's because Paul starts the discussion, uh, you, you hold these traditions of which you, I was given. So just like we were given the other things, this word in the Greek is given over and so that's why... Okay. I never thought of that. Yeah. It's an interesting thing, but... So, but again, we're going to be just using the baptism and communion discussion. Uh, in this case, we're not obviously going to use the full list because, which that could almost be a whole episode right there is comparing the different ordinance lists and things. And I'm not done. That would be interesting. That would be interesting to see.

But again, not in the scope, but I think that was a bit of context and reference. Just a quick little side to one of the things I love about the Reformers that they brought out during, um, which I think this is early church origin certainly says something of this nature is the reading of the gospel itself as a sacrament. Interesting. If you look at the scriptures, the way it says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Oh yeah. Um, that's very sacramental language. But in this case, we're going to be getting into the baptism and communion one, which would be two massive issues for Reformation, for the, the origins of the Anabaptist, uh, well, the Protestant Reformation, because then you had the whole issue of believers' baptism versus infant baptism, you know, communion, transubstantiation, as we were just seeing Simon getting literally burned alive for he not standing with where they typically would have said on transubstantiation, for example.

Right. So those would be the two really big ones. Well, and then of course the baptism, believers' baptism would have been a huge one that many early Anabaptists would have died for that. Exactly. You know, died of that belief. And it's interesting, uh, Hublmeyer actually brings, discusses these two in a way. He says, now if we possess no other word of scripture, it's a little, a little, it's a little overstated here, but only possessed an accurate understanding of water baptism and the supper of Christ, we would possess God and all his creatures, faith and love, the law and all the prophets. Now how about now four contexts for people who may not know of Hublmeyer because he's a lesser known Anabaptist figure, but he would have been right at the very beginning, one of the early Anabaptist writers and theologians.

Yeah. Right. Um, okay. So that four contexts. We will get onto Hublmeyer. If you want to say anything about him in particular. No, no, just for context, people know this is one of the early Anabaptists writing that, which do you know what year he would have wrote this? Well, it had to be 1528 or something. Yeah. I'm just guessing, but, uh, it had to be somewhere in there. Very early then. So yeah, so the questions are when we're talking about these two, so what are they? Are they just signs? Are they means of grace? Are they mandates? Well, you know, we just doing, do they signify an inward confession only? Do they convey grace to the believers?

Um, are they binding commands from Christ? And you know, or, you know, and how you word all those, um, comes out. You know, you look at some of the, the, one of the earliest, um, the earliest, uh, statement, uh, about how a church should gather was there in Zolichen, uh, with the congregational order. So is it what, right after the Anabaptist start? Right after 1525, you have the, uh, the first baptism and then they're meeting there in Zolichen. And we believe that this came from there. Um, it was already in the bindings with the Schleithaim Confession was a congregational order. And that, and the Schleithaim Confession is only two years later. So this is extremely early in the Anabaptist movement.

Exactly. Helpful context. Yes. Very beginning. And it mentions how you should have church, interestingly. And it talks about you should meet at least three or four times a week. It says that when you meet together, you should read something, um, godly or something. Let none be frivolous. We should be able to admonish one another in a brotherly and Christian way out of love. It says that we should have this common fund to be able to help the poor and this kind of a thing. It does mention that all gluttony should be avoided, um, for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking. And then the last thing it mentions is the Lord's Supper. And I'll quote it.

It says the Lord's Supper shall be held as often as the brothers are together, thereby proclaiming the death of the Lord and thereby warning each one to commemorate how Christ gave his life for us and shed his blood for us, that we might also be willing to give our body and life for Christ's sake, which means for the sake of all the brothers. Hmm. And that sounds, well, that sounds so nice. And, but you got to understand this theology of martyrdom that's, you know, why I started with that first image. When you came together and gave yourself for each other, this meant seriously that, you know, many of these were going to die and that communion was something that's very big to them.

Um, we get in Conrad Grebel's letter again. Conrad Grebel would be one of the earliest, uh, if not the earliest, uh, uh, Anabaptists there in Zurich. And he mentions this in one of his letters. He says, the nighttime meals shall be practiced often and used much. Hublmeyer actually had communion every Sunday, um, night. Um, they would come back and have that from what I've read. He said, and here's this quote, uh, another court report of them. It says, small fellowships of Anabaptists sprang up like mushrooms everywhere. It reads one report. He said they moved from house to house for meeting in order to remain inconspicuous, where they read and studied the holy writings and commemorated the nighttime meal.

And so this was an early court report from an outsider of what it looked like to be, um, to be there in the, in the early time. So I thought, you know, as I pondered, um, who's going to be listening to this, you know, there's going to be different ones. You know, there's going to be some of those that are, wait, I've never really studied the sacraments at all. Never studied baptism. There's going to be some that are geeked out into lots of different things. Uh, and that's great. I love that. I hope for that. And then there's going to be some that, you know, are coming adversarial and that's fine too. I don't mind the criticism.

And so let it rip in the comments. But, um, I thought I'd start with the scriptures and so that everybody can get what is a context that everybody's debating over and talking about and some of the primary scriptures that, that we've been talking about for over 500 years, for much over 500 years. I was going to say one of the criticisms maybe, or, or critiques, whatever that I've heard is like, well, we're all reading the same Bible. Like, how is this so controversial? It shouldn't be that complicated. You know, you get that. Yeah. It's like, yes. So it would be helpful, I think, bring in what are some of the scriptures being used. And then I'm sure there's apparently a wide range of interpretations because here we are.

And you know, I'm famous for quoting, uh, Conrad Grebel's axioms. Um, we believe the Bible without complicated interpretation and out of that we speak. Yes. Or I speak, he wrote his letter. And then the other is that we believe the teachings of the Lord are meant to be put into practice, the teachings of Jesus. And those are kind of, so let's look at then what's the simple interpretation of this, you know? Yeah. All right. So let's look at it. Look at baptism. Okay. Oh boy. All right. Let's go in. So what does it say about baptism? In Acts 2:36, I'll back it up. And instead of your typical just coming right in at Acts 2:38, therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.

So Pentecost, Peter's preaching. Now, when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? So many of the early Anabaptists would stress here that some kind of work of grace is obviously happening in the people here. They are convicted of the Holy Spirit. They're cut to the heart. And now they respond, what shall we do? And so then Peter said to them, repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So this loaded passage is, listen, what does baptism do?