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"Understanding the Current Conflict in Gaza" by Ryan Grove

1,160 views • Apr 17, 2025

Description

April 12, 2025 Strength to Strength welcomed Ryan Grove to discuss the ongoing conflict in Gaza. The current conflict in Israel and Gaza gets large amounts of attention by many people who have very different viewpoints. We recognize and mourn the ongoing and recent human suffering by the inhabitants of these lands that are full of history and religious significance. We will look at some history and the viewpoints of different sides of the conflict. Most importantly, how can we as followers of Jesus communicate the message that Jesus’ kingdom is good for all. An interactive question-and-answer period follows. At the beginning of the talk Bryant mentions Kingdom Connect Europe. You can get more information on this website: https://kingdomconnecteurope.org/ https://strengthtostrength.org/understanding-the-current-conflict-in-gaza/
🎧 "Understanding the Current Conflict in Gaza" by Ryan Grove
Lessons

The one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him, and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

This is Strength to Strength. It's good to be with you here again today. This morning early, I was out enjoying the, the, the Robbins, uh, singing away here in the spring morning, and I was listening to my Bible as I was walking.

And this verse stood out to me here out of Galatians 6:9 through 10: "Let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart." Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are the household of faith.

And that verse stood out to me as I thought about how the topic this morning is, is really, uh, has a, uh, the burden behind it, um, is this burden that we would, as followers of Jesus, as Paul says, don't use liberty for the flesh, but as followers of Jesus, we would be people who are doing good to all, especially to those of the household of faith. And our topic this morning is understanding the current conflict in Gaza. And I've heard Ryan, he and I have been back and forth some of the last couple of months, uh, about this topic a little bit, and I heard him talk about how there are followers of Jesus in Gaza.

And he said that those followers of Jesus have a unique understanding of what it means to turn the other cheek, of suffering love. And so I'm, I'm really looking forward to this talk. Ryan, thanks for coming on here. Ryan shared this talk at Reach, um, conference here last month or two. I wasn't able to be in it, um, but Greg Weaver, one of our advisors, was in that call and I was in the talk there, um, and, uh, really appreciated it. And so we're looking forward to having him share that here. So Ryan, thanks for joining. Ryan and I have been friends for years, um, and we've, we've, we've had the privilege of being in their home numerous times there in Detroit, Michigan, experiencing their hospitality, he and his wife, Teresa, uh, and also seeing too their love for immigrants, um, their love for, for people from, um, you know, international people there, uh, in their home, even hosting, uh, Syrian families, uh, in their home for, for months, um, I believe.

So Ryan, thank you for being such a good example of, of the hands and feet of Jesus. You, you challenge Lynelle and I, uh, you and your wife and your family in, in lots of ways. Uh, so it's good to have you here. Before we kind of turn and, and move into the topic, I want to make just a couple short announcements here at the front. And one is, uh, Strength to Strength, uh, is, uh, turned five years old, uh, here in the last couple weeks, uh, week maybe. Um, Patrick Matthews was sharing out, uh, to us, uh, screenshots of some of the first Zoom calls we had back during the beginning of COVID. Um, so Patrick Matthews, as some of you know, is, was one of the, kind of the, the one who, um, was a brain, brains, or the vision leader behind Strength to Strength and got it rolling as a weekly, as a daily meeting, actually, back during COVID.

Um, and, uh, so anyhow, here we are, five years later, um, all of us on the admin team feel like, you know, God was raising up something, an initiative, and we kind of were in the way and got in the stream, and here we are, and we're anticipating the next five years and what God's, what's God's, what God's going to do, um, with this ministry. We definitely want it to be a ministry that He can bless and that He can use to further His work, uh, in the world.

Um, also, my wife and I just had the blessing of being in the country of Netherlands, uh, for a week. Uh, there's been several families there that we have had the privilege of interacting with, um, her and I, um, through Zoom, discipleship kind of relationships, um, with, with, uh, people who are, you know, interested in Kingdom Christianity, people who are interested in Anabaptism, what that means. Uh, and so we had the privilege of going over, uh, and meeting with them, uh, for a week, and we're really challenged and blessed being there, uh, with, with them. Um, but I said it to say this, and that is that there's a, in, in Europe, uh, in the last couple of years with, with, uh, through Strength to Strength and Anabaptist perspectives and sound faith and followers of the way, there's been just a lot of interaction, uh, or scroll publishing, David Burso, uh, with people, um, in Europe who are, who are seeking first the Kingdom of God.

Uh, and so there's been an initiative put together called Kingdom Connect, um, and it's a gathering of, of Kingdom Christians, uh, in Europe that's happening here later on this year in August. And we'll, we'll, um, have the website here, uh, on, uh, on the actual, on this talk and also, um, in the notes, the, like the, like the description notes, um, on, on YouTube, et cetera, where you can go and check that out. Um, if you are a believer, uh, in, in Europe, uh, definitely consider, uh, coming to that. I know it might sound scary together with people you don't know, um, but my family and I have had the privilege of being part of a weekend somewhat like this called Kingdom Fellowship Weekend for the last 10 years, 11 years maybe.

Uh, and it's been a huge blessing meeting people from all over the world, uh, all over North America there. Uh, and that's been such a blessing in our lives. And I just want to, uh, encourage you, uh, to take that step of faith. And, and if you are interested in Kingdom Christianity, people who are want to be part of the, the, the continuing or being part of kind of the Anabaptist worldview, uh, consider, um, coming there and being part of that weekend. Uh, and also one final announcement then in regards to Kingdom Connect, um, there is opportunities for funding need. Uh, there is a funding need there. Um, so the goal with Kingdom Connect is to try to make it as low cost as possible for people who are coming, who are registering.

Um, so this is, this conference is happening in Switzerland, and it is more expensive. Switzerland, Europe is just a more expensive place to host things like this. And so the cost is higher. Uh, and so, um, if you have an interest, uh, in, in helping, um, giving some, donating some funds to this to help lower the costs for people who are attending, um, again, you can go to the website, uh, and, and donate there, reach out to us. We'll be happy to interact with you. Uh, and that could be a real blessing to the, to God's kingdom. So thank you for considering those things.

All right. Um, back to our topic for this morning, understanding the current conflict in Gaza. I'm just going to read the description that Ryan has here. The current conflict in Israel and Gaza gets large amounts of attention by many people who have a very different worldview.

We recognize and mourn the ongoing and recent human suffering by the inhabitants of these lands that are full of history and religious significance. We will look at some history and the viewpoints of the different sides of the conflict.

Most importantly, how can we as followers of Jesus communicate the message that Jesus' kingdom is good for all? Ryan, thank you for coming on and sharing on this topic. I know this has been, uh, you've spent hours and hours preparing, studying, trying to understand, um, some of the dynamics there. Of course, you got a firsthand experience with some of your people you interact with in that part of the world and in your study as well. Um, but I know it's been, it is a challenging topic and it's fraught with lots of, uh, of, uh, minefields, if you will, uh, lots of opinions, um, and, and rightly so. Um, but we don't want to minimize that for sure.

But, uh, yeah, we just want to pause for prayer here and then we'll give, give it, give it over to you. Let's pray. Father, thank you, uh, for today. Thank you for your mercies that are new this morning. Great is your faithfulness.

Thank you for the privilege that we have of knowing that we are your sons, that we are your daughters. Thank you for Jesus. Thank you that because of the work that He did, that we can know that our sins are washed away. We can know that there is a, a new kingdom. There is a, a new covenant. There is a new king, a king that is perfect, a king that understands exactly what it means for his, um, for his citizens, for those in his kingdom.

And a king that is, that is, has turned upside down what it means to be a king. Um, you, you came and suffered, you came and taught and walked alongside of us and were willing to even die that help the horrific death on the cross.

And so, Father, it, it fills us with much joy, uh, is so inspiring to us. And we want to see, we want to see your kingdom come in new and fresh ways. We, first of all, want to be faithful to that call, uh, to the, um, the reality of being citizens of heaven. We want to be faithful to that ourselves. And we want to, um, help others, uh, think about this from a biblical, from a kingdom perspective. What does it mean? What, what does it mean for us in the 21st century, 2000 years later, uh, to be your ambassadors, to be your faithful disciples? And so, Father, we know we think we have all the answers, but we know that you do, and we know that you have, um, a way for us to live in our world.

And so, Father, we ask that you will bless Ryan, give him wisdom, uh, as he shares this morning. And Father, I pray that, uh, we could have open hearts and minds and, and, and learn, uh, uh, through him. Uh, so we ask this in Jesus' name.

Amen.

All right. All yours, Ryan. Well, good morning. And, uh, thank you for being here. Thank you for your interest in this topic. Uh, as I believe it was Father Abraham said, is that we need to think Christianly about this topic. So that's our desire, that we think Christianly. Sometimes we don't always do that.

Uh, and as Bryant mentioned, there's the handout that will either be in the chat or will be linked to the website. That is simply a, uh, a outline, like the basic outline with room for notes. And then the last page is resources. My contact information is also on there. There's more resources, uh, if you desire or if you wish to dialogue about anything, feel free to reach out. Um, and also, I believe on the description on Strength to Strength's website, there is the, uh, there's five books there. Those are all, were extremely helpful in preparing this, and those are the top five of my recommendations. They're all very good, uh, but there's many more as well.

Uh, so check out the resource page if you wish to do more research. Also, this talk is what I would call very, just a simply a high level view. And the goal is one that we think Christianly. And the other is that, that it gives a platform for more research for, for you as you, uh, if you want to research it more. Uh, there's simply not time, uh, to go into too much depth in many of these points.

So when October 7th happened, uh, I was in disbelief and I was like, how, how could people do this? It just seemed, uh, barbaric and humane. But you know, it wasn't long and the Israeli assault began and we started to see how horrible that was. And it kept going on and on and on. And I couldn't believe that either.

My message was always, these are all people, whichever side of the wall they are on. They're all someone's mother, father, sister, brother, son, daughter. There were conversations with local Arab friends about this. Although I didn't ascribe any divine aid to Israel, I also didn't take the side of unquestioning support of Palestine either. Siding with violence of any kind for any reason is not the way of Christ.

This morning, I'm not here to take sides politically or ethnically, but the problem is that many Christians have already taken unambiguous sides. And the result is that the Christian faith, the credibility of the Christian faith is at stake for some.

This is something that we need to get right. We must not be found to be on the wrong side of power. For the gospel to really be good news for people, we need to espouse the true gospel of Jesus Christ. During this talk, it might seem like I am against the state of Israel. I'm not. What I am against is ascribing divine cause to the state of Israel or calling military success by them proof of God's blessing on them.

This only justifies ongoing oppression and violence against people. And in the end, I don't think it's loving to Israelis either. So we begin with the Kingdom of God. You know, this should shape our thinking on any issue. And certainly this issue is the Kingdom of God, the reality of that. You know, Christ came to the earth. And what did he come and, and preach from the start? Matthew 4:17 says, from that time, Jesus began to preach, saying, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:23 says he was proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom. So Jesus inaugurated this kingdom, the kingdom of arrived. God came to earth.

This reality must shape our thinking. Another thing it does is it pre, it prevents harm, even without completely understanding history, current events, or end times. Beginning with the Kingdom of God helps us to prevent doing harm to others. It prevents us from being on the wrong side of power because we're understanding that the reality is in the Sermon on the Mount, that this is how Christ people are to live.

So let's go through a very brief history. And this is a more, we're not going to go all the way back to biblical times. This is a more recent history of the region. Uh, who lived in, in this land of Palestine, Israel?

You know, before 1948, there, there was a diverse population. It was Arabs, Druze, Jews, Bedouins, Christians, Muslims, Jews.

Now let's go to 1917. And we had the Balfour Declaration, which was a letter from British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Lord Rothschild, who was a leader of the British Jewish community. And this Balfour Declaration stated that the British government was supporting the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine, which was then part of the Ottoman Empire, was ruling over Palestine.

And part of the reason for this was a response to widespread anti-Semitism and the persecution of Jews in Europe. During World War I, Britain made conflicting promises to both Arabs and Jews. So there were seeds of the conflict were sown, uh, during that time period.

This declaration encouraged Jewish immigration to Palestine, which led to a significant increase in the Jewish population in the following decades. Uh, the unbiased history of Israel and Palestine says this influx was viewed with apprehension and hostility by the Arab majority because now, you know, there's fear that the Jewish population will become a majority.

Uh, and especially as they would purchase land, uh, this would, would be an issue with the Arab majority. So during World War I, the Ottoman Empire was defeated. So the British mandate was then granted by the League of Nations, which gave administrative control, uh, to Britain.

There was rising tensions between the Jewish and Arab community. Jewish immigration continued, encouraged by the rise of Nazism in Europe and the Holocaust. Arab populations saw this as a threat to the majority status and land ownership. So there was the Arab revolt, which was from 1936 to '39, then which led to Britain imposing some restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchases.

So to try to keep some peace, Britain, uh, imposed some restrictions on Jews immigrating to the land. So after World War II, then there was international support for a Jewish state due to the horrors of the Holocaust. The, the international community, uh, had a lot of guilt because of what happened to the Jews. And, uh, this led to a lot of support, uh, for a homeland for the Jewish, uh, people.

So Britain, tired from World War II, turned the problem over to the UN. In 1947, the UN proposed a partition plan. And this was accepted by Jewish leaders, but it was rejected by Arab leaders. Uh, Arabs' leaders felt it was, it was unfair. The proposal was unfair to Palestinians. Uh, they felt that good land was being given, um, to the Jews. And they also did not accept the Zionist, uh, claims to the land.

So the British mandate ended on May 14, 1948, and the Arab-Israeli War of 1948 started by the Arab states attacking, uh, Israel to prevent the establishment of the nation of Israel. So this led to what is called in Arabic, the Nakba, which simply means catastrophe. So it was the catastrophe, which was 700,000 or more refugees, people that were displaced. Those were Palestinians.

Villages destroyed, people killed. Uh, another main event that we, I'm sure all would think about would be the 1967 war. Uh, and then we had the, uh, first and second intifadas, the first, which intifada means shaking off. Um, so in other words, the Palestinians were trying to shake off the Israeli, uh, rule or oppression. Uh, the first intifada was mostly peaceful, and that took place from 1987 to 1993. The second one was much more violent from 2000 to 2005.

There was a cycle of something would happen where there would finally be a, you know, like the, the pressure cooker would blow off and there'd be an uprising, and then often a crushing Israeli force response to, to quell that uprising.

The, uh, there was the Gaza wars of 2008, 2012, and 2014. Now let's talk about empires a little bit. Uh, this is a very interesting, uh, fact that Palestine has been under empire for most of the time since biblical times.

And we could list the empires, you know, the Assyrians ruled from 722 BC, and they stayed for over 200 years. Then we had the Babylonians, 587 BC, the Persians, 538 BC, Alexander the Great, the Romans, uh, the Byzantines, the Crusaders, the Ayyubids, the Ottomans, the British, and now many Palestinians would say the nation of Israel.

So is this instructive that the King Jesus inaugurated the kingdom in this region under empire? I think it is. You know, it teaches us a few things. And one is that the gospel is a reality, even if we are in the minority and did not have political power.

The gospel entered the earth to a people living under the rule of empire with a long history of this.

Also, the gospel does not need to rule or need the moral majority to be true and change lives.

Context matters. So how did we get to the point that we are at today as something like October 7th happened with Hamas, uh, killing a lot of people and the Israeli response being what it is? Now we can contextualize something without justifying or agreeing with it.

So what Hamas did was horrible. It was wrong.

But we also should look at why would something like this happen? What would, what would bring people to the place for something like this to happen?

One thing is that there was a blockade that began 17 years ago. Now, the World Bank estimated in 2015, this is 10 years ago, that GDP losses caused by the blockade since 2007 was above 50%. So if you start thinking about that and an area loses 50% of gross domestic product, that has a big effect on everyone.

There was a 2022 human rights report that highlighted the blockade led to shortages of essential supplies, limited access to healthcare, high levels of poverty and unemployment. You know, when, when people are under oppression, resentment builds, people can become radicalized.

You know, when you see yourself stopped and blocked at every turn, when you are humiliated, you see your parents and siblings humiliated, when children and siblings and parents are killed, resentment builds without the power of Christ. People can easily turn to resentment, bitterness, and go to extreme measures to try to break free, uh, from the oppressors. Also, the oppressed can become oppressors. This has happened many times. When people are treated wrongly, they're capable of treating others in the same way when they get into power.

So present-day Hamas, or present-day Gaza, Hamas has been in power, uh, since 2006. They won the election. Uh, some factors which contributed to this were, was their anti-corruption stance. Uh, the Palestinian authority was corrupt. They also were not making progress in peace talks with Israel. People were tired of what they were doing and were ready to try something else.

Now, people will use this and say, well, you know, there's no one innocent in Gaza because they voted in, uh, Hamas.

And I would say we need to be very careful of using language like that. Uh, you know, that's been used by other groups, um, even against the US, like there's no innocent Americans, like they vote in their leaders and here's what their leaders are doing.

Uh, you know, also language, you know, people push strongly for the eradication of Hamas. They are pure evil. They must be destroyed. We have to be careful of dehumanizing language when we blanket easily call people pure evil, uh, especially if that's spreading to all of a population. So today there's 60% of the buildings in Gaza are damaged.

There's horrible injuries. Uh, it's estimated more than a hundred thousand people have been injured just from the last, uh, war since October 7th. Horrible burns, injuries without proper medical supplies. The stories are, are unbelievable of doctors trying to work in these settings.

When this all started happening, I told my children, you know, they won't, people won't just be killed by the bombs. Like that's bad enough, but they'll be burnt, maimed, all kinds of injuries, uh, deaths. Now the, the numbers are saying over 50,000.

Uh, many children, Gaza is a very young population. There's a lot of children. So now they're saying around 15,000 children have died since this. Um, probably more because of malnutrition and lack of good care. And the argument is they say, well, you know, they're using them as humans, human shields. So what are we to do?

But we should ask, is this ever appropriate? Like, is it ever appropriate to say, okay, we need to kill one Hamas member, maybe a higher level? So, you know, hey, if it's a hundred other people that get killed or 150 in this airstrike, well, that's okay.

You know, even if you're using the just war theory, at what point, at what point is that way out of balance? Uh, which I don't ascribe to the just, just war theory, but if, if people, uh, claim to use that, uh, they could probably at least use that. So also, what if that was your child? What if that was my child? Am I okay with that?

Now, one of the most, one of the least represented voices in news and media is probably the voice of Palestinian Christians. Although there is, in recent years, there's been some traction made, uh, in this whether with social media, with, with podcasts, uh, with different writing books, there's, there's definitely more voice of the Palestinian Christians.

Often, it seems from the West, we tend to hear about extremist Muslims, the notion that most Muslims want to kill all Jews.

Now, this is simply untrue. It's sure there are some extremists, there are some who are radicalized, uh, but it's not true of most Muslims.

Palestinian Christians have a firm commitment to the way of Jesus. It comes out in their writing and speaking, especially non-violence, very committed to, to no violence, uh, being used against the Israelis and a desire to stay in this area to be a Christian witness. You know, the hardship of staying is often because of, of Israeli oppression.

Young people often are faced with hard decisions about staying because of lack of opportunity. So if there's an opportunity to emigrate, then they, uh, then they will, uh, often choose that rather than staying in this land. There are still, uh, you know, before October 7th, there was around 1,200, uh, Christians in Gaza. Obviously, there's more in the West Bank. Um, and there still is around 600. Uh, but the, at least one of the churches has been bombed during this conflict. Uh, but there still is a Christian population there as well, of course, in, in the West Bank. There's more. Uh, a good theology of the kingdom of God, a good robust theology of the kingdom of God.

And some, some of what I feel has aided this is they're used to living under empire. Like this has come down from generations. They're, they're used to not being the ruling class. The way of Jesus is meant to be lived and experienced today. This comes out in, in speaking and writing.

And so can we at least hear our fellow Christians?

Now, there's different aspects of the struggle that I see. Um, there's the ethnic aspect, there's the importance of ancestral land, there's Zionism, and there's religion. Now, some would say, no, it's all, uh, political, um, it's not religious, but others would say, you know, absolutely, it's religious.

So I feel like there's multiple aspects. Now, the ethnic aspect is that Israel is a Jewish state for Jewish people. This is what, uh, the state of Israel says it is. Uh, some lived here before 1948. Uh, the Jewish people desire to have a safe place to live. And this is understandable. Jewish people should be safe anywhere.

Uh, anti-Semitism, uh, should not have a place anywhere. By the way, one thing I would like to say is we need to be aware of the difference between, uh, anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism or being critical of the state of Israel.

Often, I, today it feels like being critical of Zionism or, uh, or the state of Israel is lumped in with being anti-Semitic. It's not at all. Anti-Semitism is always wrong and it's different. So the Jewish people say, no one else took care of us, so we're gonna take care of ourselves. And you can see it in the drive that there's been in some of these, uh, in some of these conflicts, uh, to take care of themselves.

And from an earthly standpoint, uh, it's understandable. Now, the Palestinian, uh, ethnic Palestinians say, well, why are we strangers in our land? We've been here for generations. So why are they also say, why are we paying for what Europeans did to the Jews? And I think that's a very valid point that they have.

Also, there's the importance of ancestral land. Keeping land and houses and the family is extremely important. It's beyond our comparisons. We may think we understand it with like a family farm or a family business being passed down. Uh, but it's more like the biblical example, uh, Naboth, the Jezreelites' vineyard in Samaria.

When, uh, Ahab wanted to buy this from him, Naboth said to Ahab, the Lord forbid that I should give you the inheritance of my father's. So that's more of the mindset, I believe, that people in this region tend to have toward ancestral land, houses. Now, there's the Zionism aspect. We have, there's Jewish Zionism, and then there's also Christian Zionism.

Uh, Jewish Zionism started in the 19th century. It was a movement to create a homeland for Jews in the contemporary world. As Bruggemann says in the book, Chosen Question Mark, it made a compelling connection to the ancient biblical conviction concerning a restored, recovered Jerusalem.

So that was Jewish Zionism. Now, there's more Christian Zionists in the world than there are Jewish Zionists, and they have a powerful influence. There's a lot of financial support. Uh, it's funneled from politicians, Christian churches, lobby groups, and individuals.

It helps to fund illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which are illegal under international law, and it amounts to billions of dollars. It's well known around the world that evangelical Christians support this. Not all, but it's well known that they do. It's well known that politicians need to strongly support Israel to get the evangelical vote.

What this does is confuses and distorts the Christian message. What if the world knew that unequivocally Christians are poor violence or oppression of any kind? Now, Christian Zionists see the significance of Trump declaring Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

So for former Congresswoman and U.S. presidential nominee, Michelle Bachman, this was agreeing with what God himself said 3,000 years ago, that Jerusalem is the capital. Now, this is one example of many. We hear this language often.

Uh, Christian language, errant beliefs get mixed with, with politicians, and it gets repeated on the news.

Christians need to come to grips with their ongoing, with the effect of their ongoing support of oppression and violence. Christians can be fascinated with end-time prophecy rather than doing what we know for sure, which is live and speak the way of Jesus.

And you know, some of these predictions have expired time and time again, but a new one will come up and get repeated. You know, speaking like we are a hundred percent certain about end-time prophecies, while the clear way of Jesus is disregarded.

Let's turn this around. Maybe we don't know. Maybe those who are speaking like they're a hundred percent certain, maybe that's not nearly as certain as they think about how certain events will take place in the end time. But Jesus gave us clear teaching, and we should never let the end justify the means or what we think the end will be so that we can use force and violence to try to bring about some, uh, end-time prophecy in a certain way.

So the religious aspect, now the Jewish religious aspect, some would see this as reclaiming the land. Now, this is not true of all Jews. There are actually many in a growing movement of Jewish people who are actually opposing what the state of Israel is doing.

But some feel the land has been given to them forever by God. They have a high priority on Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. Now, the Christian, not, now this is not Christian Zionist, but the Christian aspect is that Christian Palestinians live here and desire to maintain a Christian witness in this land. Then there's the Muslim aspect. Some in the Islamic religion see gaining control of Jerusalem as important. The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site for Muslims.

Uh, someone sent me a verse in the Quran, uh, to show me that they will be victorious in taking back Jerusalem.

And it says, "Oh, my people, enter the holy land which God has assigned for you. Do not turn back or you will be losers." But my question is, how will this happen?

This sounds like a lot of violence and bloodshed for this to happen.

Now, let's talk about biblical Israel and modern state of Israel. It's been very helpful for me to ask and understand who is Israel? Who is the Israel of God? Speaking, terming it as the Israel of God has been very helpful to separate it from modern Israel. I will say I can understand why, as Christians, we feel a natural affinity toward Israel. One, we are very familiar with the Old Testament, with stories of this. And then here you have another nation, and it's called Israel, and you have the same names.

So it's understandable why we could feel this natural affinity. And you could think, wow, what's, you know, now we have the nation of Israel again. This must be of God. But let's look at what is the Israel of God. Number one, they were always people of covenant.

Covenants are contingent. God says, this is what I will do. This is what you will do. If you don't do your part, the covenant will no longer be in effect. Now, the people of covenant in the old covenant were to have no king. God made it clear to them. God was to rule over them and be their king. Judges 8:22, 1 Samuel 8, rejecting God as king would lead to neglect of the covenant.

And Samuel warned them what kings would bring in 1 Samuel 8. They would bring war, taxes, consume the young to serve the empire, steal the land. Now, these Israelites under old covenant were to treat non-Israelites fairly. Non-Israelites were to be welcomed.

They were to have the same religious privileges. Now, they needed to be circumcised. They needed to be, to join the Israel of God. But they were to have Sabbath rest. They were to take part in festivals, and they were to have social privileges.

Leave some crop for the alien, for the orphan and the widow. They were to have legal privileges, access to the same system of justice, fair wages, Deuteronomy 24. And, uh, whose land, whose promise? Gary Burge says, men like Jeremiah, Amos, Isaiah, and Ezekiel had little patience for a nation that ignored righteousness as it built its empire.

Now, what about the new covenant, Israel of God?

Romans 9, uh, 6 to 8 says, but it is not the word of God. It is not that the word of God has taken no effect, for they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham. But in Isaac, your seed shall be called. That is, those who are the children of the flesh.

These are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as seed. So he's making it clear that there is an Israel of faith and a natural Israel, the Israel of the flesh. But not all, they're not all children who are the seed of Abraham, but it's the ones who are in Isaac, those who are children of faith. These are of the seed of Abraham. Now, you know, normally much is made about, uh, whether people are descendants of Isaac and Ishmael, but this is in regards to children of promise that we're talking about, descendants of faith.

Romans 10:1 and 2, Paul's desiring, he has a desire for the Jewish people to be saved. He says they have a zeal for God. And we would see that today. Many Jewish people have a zeal for God, but they need to be saved.

Romans 8, uh, Romans 11, 11 and 14, salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous. How will this happen? How will Israel become jealous? Will it be through Christians, followers of Jesus, the Messiah, living and acting by the ways of the world? Probably not, but probably through living and acting of the ways of the Messiah and the true King of Israel.

Uh, Romans 11:17 to 24, Gentiles grafted in. Don't be arrogant toward the branches. If branches were broken off because of unbelief, so you will be broken off for the same reason. We must continue in the way of Christ. Otherwise, we will be cut off, just as those branches that did not believe were cut off from the olive tree. This olive tree is such a beautiful example that Paul's given in Romans 11. And then it's also clear in Romans 11, the original branches are welcome to be grafted back in. You know, Paul is grappling with this all, how this is working in Romans 11, Romans 9 through 11, actually, about how, how this is working now with the, with the Jewish people, with the, the Israel of God, and now the Gentiles with the advent of the, of the Messiah and the kingdom of God, how this is working out.

And he's saying, you know, no, God didn't cut them off forever. They're still welcome. Yeah, he's cutting off the branches that don't believe, but they're welcome to be grafted back in. You know, Hebrews 11:8 to 16, Abraham never really received what was promised, but looked on it from afar since the true promise was not in the land itself.

Romans 4:13, Abraham and his descendants were to be heirs of the world. Now, the new covenant is not a replacement of Israel with the church, but rather a continuation of the Israel of God. You know, the familiar passage, uh, in John 4:22 and 23, uh, where Jesus met the woman at the well. Jesus said, the time will come when you don't need, you will not worship in Samaria or Jerusalem.

So he was downplaying the importance of physical Jerusalem. He was inviting them, her, and us to leave the way of the world and enter the kingdom of heaven. So the modern state of Israel, what is this? Is it, is it a nation in covenant with God? Well, they say themselves that they are a secular state.

They say they are for, for, uh, ethnically Jewish people, but they're a secular state. They don't follow or rely on covenant with God. They are reliant on, on military power, uh, especially Western military power. They are oppressive against, uh, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

They are guilty of land confiscation, of home demolitions, making it very difficult for Palestinians to move and travel in the West Bank, stealing water, the destruction of villages, arrest and detention, people held for years with no trial, prison and torture, violence in the streets. 1992, a Gaza mental health survey conducted to measure the results of violence-related trauma to children. This was published in the link in '93. Out of an estimated 150,000 children aged 8 to 15, more than 63,000 were beaten by soldiers. That's 42%. 7,000 had suffered fractures as a result. 35,000 had been struck with some form of Israeli military equipment.

I'm going to read a short story that happened in 1990. And you think about it, that's some years ago. And this is just one story from many. But it shows, uh, especially the, uh, you know, the power differences.

Uh, this comes from the book, Whose Land, Whose Promise by Gary Burge. I was in Israel, Palestine in 1990, visiting an Arabic Christian pastor and his family in the city of Ramallah. This pastor's home had become a refuge for many who sought support and protection. At seven o'clock in the morning, an elderly Palestinian woman burst into the kitchen where we were eating breakfast. Her story riveted us. The Israeli army had come that night to homes on our street, looking for stone-throwing boys. It was about midnight. The children were in bed. In panic, they fled as soldiers with weapons, tore through the bedrooms.

Zina, a 12-year-old girl, fled out the front door and there on the porch was shot point-blank by a soldier with an automatic weapon. She was barely alive. The woman fell to the floor and her weeping, her incessant weeping paralyzed us all. I knew what she was talking about. Just the day before, I'd been walking up Altair Street, Ramallah's main boulevard, and watched a platoon of soldiers shake down a row of homes. An officer told me that a child had thrown a rock out of the yard and hit the new car of an Israeli settler.

Now the soldiers were looking for him. They could find only women and young children since school was in session and the men were away at work. The residents were told to line up in the field in front of the houses while the soldiers searched more carefully. I squatted down next to a Jeep, watching in amazement. A girl of about five ran into the street. Her mother screamed as she pursued her, and the soldiers yelled for them to get back in line. Then the rocks started falling. Soldiers on top of the buildings nearby started targeting the young woman and her child with apple-sized stones. It was their laughter that disturbed me. It was their grisly sport here in Ramallah that I found stunning.

The young mother swept up her child with tears streaming down her face and fled for the cover of the trees. And there she wept. To this day, I can still see and hear her weeping in the trees of Ramallah and laughing young Israeli soldiers targeting her with rocks.

I deduce what happened next. The frustrated platoon decided to come back that night and in a surprise raid catch whomever they could. The young critically wounded girl was just one more accidental victim. So that's one story of many. But you see the, the power difference and the helplessness that people feel in these types of situations.

The state of Israel fails as a nation in covenant with God under the Old Testament alone.

And as Christians, we should never be saying that these types of acts are somehow God doing his work to bring about the end times. So if people might ask, well, what is Israel to do? This might be a fair question, but it needs more context. Is more violence that is extreme and crushing really a solution? Israel has overwhelming power, overwhelming advantage in terms of social capital.

You know, maybe they could stop disobeying international law in regards to settlers in the West Bank. Maybe they could recognize that more powerful control and violence will lead to more resentment and violence. What Isaac says is Christians, we don't argue for the eradication of the Israeli state. Rather, stop forcing divine attributions on a secular state.

What we say matters. We may not be voting or pulling the levers of power, but we may be giving license to those people who do.

Now there's a story, there's stories of two kings in the Old Testament. One is David, King David, purchasing the threshing floor from Ornan, the Jebusite. This is in First Chronicles 21. Now the, uh, Ornan wanted to give it to him. He said, you can have it. David was to build an altar there for God. So he said, you know, you take it. And David insisted on paying the full price. He said, there's, I will not take this.

And he insisted on giving him the full price. Now Ahab wanted to buy the vineyard from Nebat, the Jezreelite, First Kings 21. What did he do? We all know the story. He murdered him so he could get it because Nebat was, was not going to sell it to him.

Well, who did God send? God sent Elijah the prophet. And here's what he said. Thus says the Lord, have you killed and also taken possession? Judgment was pronounced swiftly, even under the Old Testament standards. Abraham as well insisted on paying full price for a piece of land to bury Sarah.

He lived as a stranger in a foreign land. Let's talk about some what I call often repeated messages about the modern state of Israel. Now these are messages that I feel like most of us, if we've grown up in America, we've heard them at some point, maybe in our own churches, maybe from others.

Uh, I don't think we always understand them or think through them, but we've heard them so much, uh, that some people take them to be fact without doing a lot of work with it. One is God will bless those who bless Israel. They would say America needs to support Israel or America will not be blessed by God.

Well, this statement, God will bless those who bless Israel, is often coming from Genesis 12, where God said, I will bless those who bless you. So this is Abraham. Well, Galatians 3:28 and 29 says, there's neither Jew nor Greek. We were all one in Christ Jesus.

And if you are Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Now Galatians 3:16 says, now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He does not say unto seeds as of many, but as of one, and to your seed who is Christ. So there's a singular seed here, and that is Christ.

That's Abraham's offspring. Second Corinthians 1:20, all the promises of God find their guests, their fulfillment in Christ.

Another statement that's often made is all Israel will be saved. And this comes from Romans 11:26 and 27. And here's what it says, and most of this is actually a quote from Isaiah. So it says, and in this way, all Israel will be saved as it is written. Now he's quoting from Isaiah, the prophet Isaiah. The deliverer will come from Zion. He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. And this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

So he's saying all those who believe and follow Christ will be saved. This is how they will be saved. And he's experiencing this in the present time, what Isaiah had foretold. This is how they'll be saved.

Jews can still be accepted in the Christian faith. As Mother Isaac says, he's not talking about a future distinct national restoration, but he's saying this is how they can be saved. Jews and Gentiles share in the same nourishing root, Romans 11:17, of the olive tree. So it's not about the restoration. It's not about a distinct plant or branch of the olive tree. What is for the Jews, for the Gentile?

Ephesians 3:6 says, this mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. So fellow heirs, there's not a separate branch, but rather the Jews and Gentiles share in the same root, the nourishing root of the olive tree.

Mother Isaac says, saved in Paul's theology can only mean coming to faith in Christ.

That's what it is to be saved in Paul's theology. It's not about obtaining a state in the Middle East, but it's about being saved and joining the church. There's a remnant who are obedient. You can, if we look at the context of Romans 11 here, is that Paul's saying, look, there's, this is how people will be saved. The Jewish people can still be grafted back in and there's going to, those who believe and follow Christ will be saved.

Jews and Gentiles are branches in the same tree. The deliverer had come. The deliverer had come. Their sins can be taken away and our sins can be taken away in the same way. Another phrase that's repeated is that God promised them the land forever.

Now the land was given unconditionally, but it was held conditionally. For Abraham, the land was always linked to covenant. Now we tend to think about land ownership in terms of we have a deed. We're given a deed. This is, this is my land now until this is transferred to someone else.

But this wasn't how it was with Abraham. It wasn't like God gave him a deed and then stepped out of the picture. No, it was always to be conditional on him and his descendants' relationship with God. Brugamon says in the book Chosen?

The Deuteronomic If became a primary theme among prophets of the 8th and 7th century BC. So it's, it's if you do this, I would do that. If you do that, here's what will happen. And furthermore, as we noted before, God was actually promising the world to the one descendant of Abraham. The land, we could say, was a metaphor or a symbol of what was to come.

Also, the New Testament is surprisingly silent on the issue of land. You know, was this really of any interest to Jesus or Paul? We don't find it being. Romans 4:13, no specific land was mentioned regarding the promise to Abraham and his offspring. Rather, they were to be heirs of the world. Verse 16 of Romans 4 says, the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. Again, it's the faith of Abraham. You know, you could talk about the wilderness journey being symbolic of the Christian life. So Hebrews 3 and 4, seeking to enter rest. Hebrews 4:8, if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

So this was not really when, when, when they came into the land, Joshua did not give them full rest. No, it was a symbol. It was something beyond the soil of Canaan. Hebrews 11:9-10, Abraham lived in the land of promise, but yet as in a foreign land. He was looking forward to a heavenly city.

Also, we're under the new covenant. We should never support force, violence, and theft to do something that we think will fulfill prophecy. The whole world is under the reign of Christ. As we talked about Abraham actually being promised the world, Jesus said, all authority is given to me. The whole world is under the reign of Christ. Now it's not in a reign that uses F-16s and bombs and missiles and all that. Another phrase is look at their military success. It has to be miraculous.

You know, the small nation surrounded by enemies, but they are victorious. So it must be miraculous. Well, how does military success mean anyone is blessed by God? Are we willing to apply this to other examples, to every other military success in the world? I think in the West we struggle to understand this, but you know, military success is the way of the ungodly world. It's hard for Americans to understand because any war is is made to seem justified and on the side of goodness and rightness and protecting the the disadvantaged to where America is made to always seem to be on the side of good. And we've only to look at, at, you know, failed wars and the damage that's been done, you know, supporting one side and then the other on and on.

There are all kinds of trouble has been caused. Also, there are legitimate explanations for Israel's military success. Huge support by the US and other nations. So, you know, if we're saying that they are, this is proof of them being blessed by God, but at the same time we're saying that, you know, they have all kinds of support in modern military means and methods and hardware and technology. Well, I don't think it can be both.

Also, the strategy is something like the 1967 war. The Israelis were brilliant in the strategy that they used.

It doesn't mean that it's that they were had miraculous intervention for them to do what they did in six days. And one was that the Israeli soldiers were highly motivated, whereas the other, most of the other soldiers from their enemies were not as motivated as they were.

So is this consistent with the way of Christ that military success is miraculous with what Jesus and the entirety of the New Testament calls success? Is America's military success really a result of the blessing of God? Is this what Jesus said? We've only to look at the beginning of Matthew chapter 5 and what we call the Beatitudes to see that of who Jesus says are really blessed.

Descendants of Isaac, the fact that that Jewish people are descendants of Isaac. You know, much is made about ethnic descendants of Isaac or Ishmael, but this really misses the point. I'd like to read from Galatians 4:22 to 26. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.

But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically. These women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. She is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia. She corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children, but the Jerusalem above is free and she is our mother.

Now Galatians says very clearly that this is allegorically. So an ethnic Jew could be a spiritual descendant of Ishmael if he is not following Christ, because he is a symbol of the old, Ishmael's a symbol of the old covenant of earthly Jerusalem.

Now an ethnic Jew can also be a spiritual descendant of Isaac, but an ethnic descendant of Ishmael can be a spiritual descendant of Isaac. So you've probably heard, I've heard that, well, the because of this enmity between these brothers that the Jews and Arabs will always be fighting.

I think this totally misses the point. And Galatians makes it clear that this is allegorically. Sure, there will always be trouble between the ways of the world and the ways of the kingdom of God. There will always be trouble between the flesh and the spirit.

So let's not distort the message of Christ. Let's speak the right message. Christ brought the kingdom to the earth. There will be violence and wickedness on the earth, but let it never be sanctioned by us. Let's not be found to be on the wrong side of power, as the church has so often been, ending up supporting wars that the foolishness of them has been understood later.

As we begin with the kingdom of God, we should end with the kingdom of God on this subject. You know, Jesus did that. We noted how he began with the kingdom of God when in his ministry. In Acts 1:3, after his resurrection, he also spoke of the kingdom of God.

He didn't speak of a restored kingdom of earthly Israel, but rather the kingdom of God. And it's real. And it's on the earth. And this prevents us from mixing the world's ways and means with the kingdom of heaven's ways and means.

You know, supporting Israel unconditionally and saying this is acts of God that they are succeeding in is undermining the gospel of the kingdom. This is antithetical to the way of Christ. Instead, all are welcome into this amazing kingdom of God. We extend the same invitation to the Jew or the Muslim. We invite all people to be true descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You're all welcome in this one kingdom of peace.

All right, back to you.

Thank you so much, Brother Ryan. Thank you for the clarity by which you spoke. I really, really appreciated that and was challenged by your talk. Something that, a quote that I thought of here as you were wrapping up, or actually during your talk was by C.S. Lewis. And wrapping up, you were kind of touching on some of these same ideas is C.S. Lewis said that a sin to hell is easy, and those who begin by worshiping power soon worship evil.

And that's what you've been talking about this whole time is earthly power. It's earthly. It's what earthly nations do on both sides. And as you also mentioned at the beginning, the oppressor, the oppressed becomes the oppressor. And that's just the sad, sad reality. But those of us who are children of God through Jesus are called to represent an upside down way in our world. And thank you for that challenge here this morning.

You were at the beginning, you kind of laid out a little bit of the history of how, you know, the last maybe 60, 70 years. And I wanted to just point out that in Greg's book here, A Great Nation, which is one of the books that you referenced, Ryan, as a resource at the beginning in the introduction, Greg goes through that pretty well. And so if you want to hear a little more of that, get the book and you can kind of see more detail there in writing about some of the history of, you know, 70 years ago.

Yeah, so one question, I'm going to have one question for you, Ryan, and then we're going to open it up here. So please be ready with your questions. We're at quarter after, which I told Ryan, he has an hour and I took a little longer in the beginning. So good job, Ryan. You nailed it right on.

And so, but keep, have your questions ready right away. So, but yeah, a question I have for you is, so I've, you know, the dispensational premillennialism is unfortunately alive and well in the Anabaptist world. And I've been given books by people like that. And recently, in the last year, I was given a book that represented that viewpoint. And one of the things they said in the book is that Palestine was quite empty.

You know, when we think about as the nation of Israel got founded, you know, whatever that was, you know, 60, 70 years ago.

What is your, and then you mentioned at the beginning, you said there was maybe around 700,000 refugees. I had forgot, I had heard the other side, but I kind of forgot that. But is there a place you can reference us to resource that or how do you, you know, I'm sure you've came across this idea from Zionism, Zionist Christians, this idea that this land was empty. But how do you counter that or how do you defend that?

Yeah, I mean, it's unfortunate there's that statement and I'm not even sure who made it, but that Palestine was, it was a land for a people without, it was a land without a people for a people without a land.

And it's so unfortunate that became the slogan that, hey, here's the place for people without a land. The Jewish people need their own people. And here's an empty land without people. So it's very unfortunate. So yeah, there's just all kinds of resources.

Betselem is a good, I have that listed on my resource page. It's a Jewish organization and it documents human rights abuses and so on. But yeah, just the 700,000, I mean, that's the conservative number of refugees. There was obviously people living there, a lot of people living there.

It's just, yeah, it's just unfortunate that that's been repeated and people take it to be true and it's simply not. Now, yeah, the European Jews that came, they brought with them methods of, you know, because people will point to, well, you know, look, they turned this wasteland into such good land. And they did bring methods and they had support, financial support. And so there's things like that they did. But understanding how some of those things came, those things came to be is very helpful when people are pointing to things like that as God's miraculous blessing and proof that this is totally of God's doings, is that there's just simply real things that they did to invest in the land and so on.

And they had real support to do that. Absolutely. And you know, in the Christian world, we call that community development, which, you know, those of us who have more knowledge, you know, have been, we have that opportunity. There's a lot of Christian groups and in the Anabaptist world as well. I think of Salt out of Christian Aid Ministries that's teaching people sustainable ways to, in agriculture or in business, how to raise themselves out of poverty. What a privilege it is. But we go there to bless them, not to come in and take over.

So yeah, and so there's Christian ways to do this. And I think too, this is, and I just want to just drive this point home again, just for those who are listening who maybe are predisposed to think differently about this and then we open up for questions is, you know, this is not necessarily, Ryan, as you mentioned, some type of critique of earthly powers. Earthly powers do their thing. But this is trying to help us to think Christianly as followers of Jesus. How do we interface with these narratives that come at us and how do we represent a clear Christian witness to these type of things? And also, yeah, it's not, we're not anti-Semitist. We love the Jewish people.

We want to see them come to Christ. And you know, here, unfortunately, in the West, there's been a lot of anti-Semitism, especially on college campuses. And we've seen that here at Penn State and had the privilege of interacting with some Jewish people who were living in fear at our cafe and praying for them and ministering to them.

But it's really, it's against Zionism in people who call themselves Christians. It's trying to help us think about this in a more biblical Christ-like fashion. So thank you for that, for sharing that. So, all right, well, let's open it up here for questions from our thoughts from anyone here. Hi. Yeah, I thank you, Ryan, for your talk today. It was very helpful to remember particularly scriptural passages that, yeah, right now, currently, my wife had gotten, I don't know how she did it, but she got in contact with a Muslim Arab Palestinian who is a journalist in Gaza right now. And his family was in danger from the Israeli airstrikes early on when they were trying to, you know, silence the ability for anything inside that area to get out to the world.

And so anyway, what happened was she sent a picture of herself and of course she was wearing her head covering and everything else and trying to help him understand who we were. And it was quite dramatic just by what she was wearing that made him question things about, you know, what a real Christian is. And so we had a little bit of an opportunity there to talk to him about it, but at the time, the, what was I thinking here, is they were trying to move to get some of these journalist families out of Gaza, you know, because they were in danger. They were being specifically targeted by the Israeli military. And so what happened was they were trying to raise some funds up and we thought we'd contribute a little bit to that.

And I remember riding my bike that day just praying about what we should do here. And it was like a blast just hit me. And he says, it was like Jesus saying to me, you do what you have to do. Whatever it takes to do this, you have to do this. At whatever cost it costs you to do it. And so when I came home and I talked to my wife about it, I said, that scared me in one sense. I said, I didn't even know where this was going to go. And so we ended up helping this group of people get this one family out. And they're in Egypt right now, but he had to stay because he works for the publication and they required him to stay there.

So it's enabled us to have contact with what's going on there at a level that I never would have been exposed to before. And so it made me start to really look into this more than I had, because I had a friend from India who, when he came over here early, it was like in the 90s, he grew up in Kuwait and had an acquaintance with what was going on with the Palestinians and the Israelis. And he was very, very pro-Palestinian at the time. And so when I told him about the Anabaptism, it was the first time he ever heard about the Anabaptist. It was almost like it only took a half hour to convince him.

You know, this is the Christian way of doing things, the discipleship. But we were in a dispensational church at the time. And he went right after the theology. And I was watching this happen and play out. And I realized that I was not going to get a hearing with these people about the realities of the church there or even the Muslim population that needed Christ or anything else. I was not going to get across. If all I was going to do was reject that system out of hand.

And so I tried to work within it and trying to do it. And I noticed in your talk, you talk about who we are and the focus on what that gospel is. Shouldn't we be more concerned about our brothers and sisters in Christ anywhere in the world compared to what the nations are doing? You know, and so that really struck home to me then. And you reminded me of it today, particularly when if you talk to a Palestinian, which I first one I ever met was in New York City, yeah, I asked him, I said, do you believe in the sovereignty of God? I mean, do you believe that God is nothing's out of his control?

And I think most of your people there, even this fellow we've got acquainted with, believes that. And I think it really arrests them in a way of what we consider accepting Allah's will in a situation. But also knowing that we have the hope of Christ, that when you get to a place where you're that desperate, where people are just being destroyed. And I kept thinking about the early Christians and when they were, when we look at what Paul says in terms of the confession of Jesus, you know, what is the confession it saves? That Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead. And I looked at those two points there and a lot of evangelicals where I was a part of for so long spiritualize that, okay, or make it, we call it religious.

Instead of when it could actually be more of the Christian confession in the midst of an empire that talked about Caesar, that those two parts of that confession, that Jesus is Lord, was saying something about Caesar not being Lord and also God raising him from the dead, especially through a manner of like crucifixion, which was Caesar's power of death over his people, you know, being able to keep fear and things like that based on the idea he could kill us at any time. The early Christians could basically say, Caesar, you've been robbed of your power. And that could go with any kind of government. And I'm just wondering, at what level are we talking about a reality of, because I need to, I'm trying to figure out a way to talk to this man when I get a chance.

He really wants to talk to me simply because we did this kind of sacrificial thing for him and his family. And I'm trying to figure out, okay, what would I do if I were in that situation with them? And who knows in the United States today with what's going on politically, we may actually find ourselves as a people that need to make those kinds of confessions. You know, so I was just curious if there's any thinking on this of that kind of radical hope that the early Christians had and how we think about what we're doing here as far as God calling out a people. And I think about, because I'm having a hard time right now just being frustrated in a sense of trying to put something together that this man could only hear quickly in like soundbites.

And at the very same time, dealing with the Christians, particularly the ones I'm most familiar with, who are dispensational, how to deal with that. But I was just, I'm just trying to think of how, how the, because I started praying, Lord, you know, if you had 600 Christians there in Palestine, especially Jesus followers, I'm asking now, don't worry about whether I can do anything with this guy. Have one of them come alongside him, you know? So I don't, I'm just, I'm just, you know what, more or less, I'm just appealing for prayers.

Right now, we are really at a place where God's opened the door here. And I'm not quite sure how to walk that, you know? Yeah. So yeah, thank you, Mark, for asking that. Ryan, do you have a thought, a comment? Yeah, again, I just feel like the beauty of Christ and the true kingdom of God is our message. Amen.

You know, it's not, it's not who's in power. And Christ, I believe his heart is with the people suffering. That's where his heart is. And he's with them. Actually, there's this book that just came out. It's not on the resources by one to mention it. It's called Christ in the Rubble, written by Munter Isaac.

It's heavily resourced. It's amazing, the amount of footnotes, but just came out. But you know, that's where Christ is. And it's his kingdom. It's the beauty of Christ. I don't know what else we have for people. And the Christian way is not, is not the way of force and of power. And unfortunately, as we've talked about, so many have distorted that message.

Immensely the message there is that I'm trying to see how the early Christian basically had to approach their own sense of the frailty of life in the midst of these powers. And that's why I think when Paul makes that confession, that two-pronged approach was really hitting Caesar between the eyes.

And the Christians could not, didn't have to fear the dangers that were presented because they had that hope of the king. That's right. And I'm thinking that if you're in the midst of a place where people are oppressing you, of course, Jesus at the time when he spoke about them rejecting the ways of peace to Israel at the time, his ways of peace, they were under a Roman oppression. So of course, when you look at that history going forward, you have the Jewish wars begin and then they finally get annihilated by the Roman armies. You see that he foretold that, right? And back then. And so he already told them this. So like you're saying, Jesus and his kingdom, this is really the stuff of that, of that hope, right?

It's, it's, it's how he, so yeah, when I get a chance to talk to this man, he really wants to sit down and do it, but you're like, hey, how's he going to do it, right? He's being bombed every day. Yeah. And so we'll definitely, we'll definitely pray for you, Mark. Thanks for, I appreciate it. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah.

That's worthy of prayer. And, and also God's spirits at work. One way too could be, you know, getting a Bible that he could read. That could be a real blessing. All right. Anybody else here? Any questions, thoughts here for Ryan?

I can jump in. Thank you, Ryan. Appreciated that talk very much.

And read Greg's book. Thanks, Greg. This subject I've really been digging into since October 7th too and had this crazy idea of writing a book and then I caught on Greg wrote it. Fantastic.

But yeah, where are we here with this past week? I just read the old story, 12 Years of Slave.

And it made me think about the whole struggle with slavery. And of course, there was this big disagreement in the church. You know, you had churches that held on to the idea of slavery. And I think that was the origin of the Southern Baptists. You know, they didn't want to let this go. And this war now in Gaza has brought so much information to light about what is really going on, what the Palestinians have suffered.

Where are we as a church?

How gracious can we be? And so I appreciate your brothers, what you are doing in speaking on this subject, writing on this subject. And so maybe my question is, yeah, how, I don't know if I want to use the word militant, but there is a sense in which where do we take a stand? How much grace can we give to a brother who, you know, has an Israeli flag bumper sticker or something like that, you know, which could be extremely offensive to somebody who pulls into your yard or sees you on the street, you know?

That's kind of where my mind is. I don't know if that's a valid question. Yeah, well, I think that there's a number of us who at times grit our teeth and our jaw is set, and which brings forth talks like this, brings forth books like this. Yeah, there's definitely an opposition to it, but there's also a realization within the dispensational world that there's something wrong.

It just does not set with a kingdom Christian worldview. And yeah, when people are putting the Israeli flag on their WhatsApp icon or whatever it might be, that's really, it really hits hard. So we can, yeah, I mean, that's a, you're asking a pastoral question there about how do churches relate to this? And may God give you wisdom and all of us in how to do this with clarity, conviction, and confidence, yet also trying to help understand that people, you know, people, sometimes it takes a long time to really change such what fills in like such a foundational teaching.

And it's such a paradigm shift. And so we can pray for that kingdom of God epiphany, that light bulb moment where it's a shift. We can pray for that and try to do our part in engaging it in Christ-like ways. So I'm not sure when I say Christ-like what that looks like.

So may God give you wisdom there with that. Thank you. Thank you. And that's where I see the parallels with slavery. Such a paradigm shift, right? You had people growing up that they just had this thought, well, if I want to work another hundred acres this year, I'm going to have to go to the market and get a basic slave. It's like it was just no question at, you know, that's what you do. That's how you operate. And so it's a real paradigm shift here. Also in this whole Zionist thing, and Ryan, absolutely amen. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, two different things.

There is so much push the other way to connect those two into the same, and it just isn't true.

I agree with your, I understand your question. Absolutely. How do you relate with these within the kingdom of God? I do feel like there's not always been a good alternative. There's been a lot of teaching out there that, you know, in support of what I call the often repeated messages. And there's not always been like the other side or another option given that well. I was thankful as well for Greg Weaver's book. I think books like that and good teaching and looking, teaching facts and evidence about what's happened, but also the kingdom of God and how that correlates is very important.

Thank you, Ryan.

Well, brothers, it would be wonderful to continue on here, but it is 7:38. So it's time to wrap up this call. Thank you for joining us here, and may God's kingdom come as we move forward. I just thought of this verse here at the end of Galatians 6. I don't think that you touched on this, but it says, "And as many as walk according to this rule," which is referring to the above, about this idea of Christ crucified, "peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God."

And brothers and sisters, upon us, everyone, the church, the ecclesia, the called-out ones who are under Jesus, that is the Israel of God. And what an incredible reality, what a beautiful fulfillment of that old covenant in Christ. And it's not a replacement, brothers. It's expansion. It's fulfillment. And praise God. Ryan, would you lead us in a closing prayer, please?

Father in heaven, thank you for our Lord Jesus. We thank you for the gospel. Yes. Just good news to all people. Father, help us as followers of Jesus to live this every day. Father, that we may truly be the blessing in the hands and feet of you. Yes, Lord. Father, we pray for peace. We pray for the people of Israel, the people of Palestine, the people of Gaza, and the Western.

Father, for your peace, for your safety, and for many to follow the way of Jesus. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. All right, Lord willing, we'll see you back here in two weeks. We actually don't have a talk scheduled for two weeks from now. There were some plans that got shifted around, so you can pray that we had a topic for two weeks from now, Lord willing. So, all right, go with God.

As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.

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