"Patriotic Ambassadors: Turning Obstacles into Opportunities" by Gary Miller
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The one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him, and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
Well, it looks like it's 6 o'clock, and I don't know about you, but I think I'm ready to get started. So good morning, everyone, and welcome to Strength to Strength. It's a good morning to be on here, and my family recently moved to Pittsburgh, PA, and we are part of a new church plant here, and so we're excited about this. Greg Weaver is also with us this morning, and they just moved out here this week, so we're really excited about the progress on that. So any of you, I want to tell you, you're welcome. We'd love to have you stop and see us in Pittsburgh. You're driving through, stop in. We're not very far off the beaten path at all.
So yeah, and pray for us as we try to shine God's light in this dark city.
Yeah, we are welcoming Gary Miller here this morning in our Patriotic Ambassadors series, and he's talking about turning obstacles into opportunities. Looking forward to hear what you have to share with us, Brother Gary. He comes to us from two time zones west of myself, so I think it's 4 o'clock about for him this morning. So he got up very early this morning. So thank you for that, Gary. And why don't we, without more further ado, let's have a word of prayer, and we'll get started.
Father in heaven, we thank you for your goodness again this morning. Your mercies are new, and your goodness is great. Lord, we praise you for this opportunity, and I just pray that you would speak to us through Brother Gary and help us, Lord, to be ambassadors. And may you have our eyes opened to be ambassadors of your kingdom, patriotically supporting and extending and expanding your kingdom by our actions.
Give us eyes to see the world as you see it, see the people of the world as you see them. And yeah, just use this opportunity here this morning to open our eyes and our imaginations to how we can be better equipped to be this kingdom embassy as you call us to be. I pray for all of us here this morning as we're listening, help us to grow and be challenged. I pray in Jesus' name. Amen.
Okay, so I'll turn the time over to you, Brother Gary. And for those of you who are listening, just keep your questions for the end, and we'll have a time for Q&A and let Gary respond to what your questions are at the end. So keep that in mind, and it's over to you, Gary.
Okay, greetings to each of you. I'll give a brief introduction. My name is Gary Miller. I live in Idaho, close to Boise, in that area. I have four children. Three of them are gone and one daughter that's still at home, and six grandchildren, so we feel very blessed.
I work with the SALT program at Christian Aid Ministries, which is a program designed to work with sustainability and chronic poverty. And so we work in different countries around the world. Really, we have two objectives in SALT. One is to provide teaching on better ways to provide for people's families, and the other is to demonstrate or teach what it actually means to follow Jesus in daily life. And so that is our objective there. I'm going to share my screen here this morning, and hopefully that comes across. And I wanted to look a little—I was asked to speak some on the book Reaching America and a little bit of what's behind that. There's probably—let me just say this: some of you have read some of my books.
Those books actually started—I started writing manuals for developing countries in the SALT program, and then out of that came requests to write some books for the Anabaptist people. And if you'll notice, most of my books deal with my own inner wrestling. So if it's finance, if it's regarding technology, if it's regarding church life, in this regard, how to reach out to your neighbor, it has to do with questions that I'm struggling with. And so I tend to ask a lot of questions. Probably in my books, more than provide a lot of easy answers.
Maybe several reasons. The primary one is I don't always have the easy answer. But there's several reasons I wrote this book. One of those is this: there are few unbelieving American neighbors that seem to be coming to faith and joining our conservative Anabaptist fellowships. And so why is that? What is the reason for that? Another is that our culture has changed, but sometimes as I look around in our churches, our methods haven't. Sometimes we're not connecting very well with the people we're wanting to reach out to. And then finally, as I've worked alongside Cam's billboard program, I felt we could learn something from some of the answers that these team members give out.
They get a lot of difficult questions, and the calls that come in provide a window into our culture. Different questions than we would have heard 50 years ago. Many more obstacles, we might say, that are there. And so I'm not this morning proposing or putting myself out as an expert on this topic. What you're going to hear really is my own wrestlings and some thoughts, and I'd be glad to hear from each of you if that's possible. I'm going to look at four areas.
First of all, change within and without. Our world has changed, but so has the church. The average American church today is much different than what we read in Acts. Secondly, reassessing our approach as our culture changes. I think it's important to think about and rethink about how we reach out. We become pretty entrenched. I've heard it said before that in Washington, DC, there's nothing as permanent as a temporary program. And sometimes church life can be that way too. We have trouble honestly assessing what we're doing. Are we honestly really using—are we being effective in what we're doing? Are there times we should put our energy somewhere else? Third, I want to look at some potential Anabaptist obstacles.
Very common question, especially among youth. Aren't we putting a lot of unnecessary obstacles up in front of people? Isn't that the primary reason we're not seeing more growth? Is it because of cultural hurdles we place before seekers? And then finally, I want to look at New Testament church communities. What should a church community today look like? Admittedly, this is a divisive topic.
I'm not proclaiming that I have the answer to it, but I think it's one we should be talking about. So let's start by looking at cultural change that has occurred. And I'm calling this change within and without. Our world has changed. The foundational beliefs have shifted in culture, but church life is different as well.
If you think about the early church versus the current church life, it's obvious to most of us that there's a lack of new last names in the conservative Anabaptist churches. And some of us seem to be okay with that, almost as though that's normal. And yet, as we read the book of Acts, especially the first part of Acts, it was so different. There were exciting things happening. And in contrast, American Christianity looks boring. Not much change going on. Few new seekers coming to Christ.
And so youth tend to ask, why is church life so radically different than in the book of Acts? Have we just lost interest in evangelism? Are we caught up in nice homes and business life and forget our mission?
Have we become irrelevant, too ingrown? Or is it our culture? Is it the culture surrounding us that's been inoculated against the gospel? Do people have an improper view of what Christianity is? Do they see Christians as just uninteresting and unloving and a right-wing political movement?
So in short, the question is, is it a problem with us or a problem with them? One thing we know is that we do tend to have a less outward focus. For the most part, I'm making a broad statement here, but as you look at Acts, they seem to be very interested in other areas, in sharing, in caring about others.
And I think it's only honest to say that wealth, like thorns, tends to choke out spiritual interest. That's been the pattern throughout history. And the early church seemed to have a greater focus on other people. And I think there's a good reason, maybe several good reasons. One of those is, a short time ago, those people who were in the early church were on the other side. They were first-generation believers.
And church life today is very different. It's a multi-generational thing. Something has changed. But our world, our culture has also changed. There's little fear of God. There's abundant distractions. Most of us have found America a very difficult place to evangelize.
And why is that? Well, we can look at lack of community participation. Just try having a tent meeting today and see how excited people are. Or street preaching. A lot different than other times when there wasn't much going on and someone going out and preaching drew a crowd.
There's other influences, other reasons for this change too. One of them is affluence. Most of us seek God when we're out of options. But money provides other options. We can afford counseling. We can afford pills. For a board, we can buy more toys. If you need relief, you can take an exotic vacation.
Wealth provides options. Technology is another one. We live in a culture of electronic pacifiers. If things aren't going well, you can pull out your device. Continual diversions. I like to take walks. We have a neighborhood here, a lot of people. Pretty rare to see people outside. Many people were inside. But in the past, there were many more outdoor porch interactions with neighbors.
Now there's less interaction, less chance to dialogue and build relationships. There's also another reason. It's what I call contaminated soil. Many people believe they understand Christianity. Many seekers have already been exposed to some flavor of Christianity, and they're not real impressed. It's been said that behind every atheist is a wounded theist. In other words, they got hurt somehow. And this is something the early church in Acts did not have to deal with. And it's huge as we try to reach out to people, is that many people around us have been hurt by so-called Christianity. We'll come back to that later.
Secondly, I want to look at just reassessing our approach. So the message of the gospel has not changed, but methods of delivery need to be thought of differently. And there are times when we need to change our method of delivery.
We could say different soil calls for different methods of planting. And we see that in the book of Acts already. I put a chart here that I think I had this in the book as well, showing two things: showing interest and knowledge. If you look on the left side, you're going to see knowledge, and on the top is interest.
And so if you think about Acts 2, where Peter is delivering a message on the day of Pentecost, he was calling them to repent. It's a very strong message. Come out very strong. But consider his audience. They were Jewish people. They had a fear of God. They had a good grasp of the Old Testament. And they were very interested in knowing what they should do. Our family just read this last night, and I was just shocked again at the terror they must have felt in knowing they had just killed the Messiah.
They weren't going to know what to do. And so on this chart, you'll see it shows a very high level of interest, good knowledge. But if you go to Mars Hill, Acts 17, Paul was speaking to a completely different crowd. He was probably over here on that chart.
They had little, if any, knowledge. They were just kind of curious, wanting to know what was going on. So Paul didn't start out the same way Peter did. He started out talking about their gods and their superstition. He tried to reason with them. Completely different approach than Peter had. He even quoted one of their prophets to make a point. I find that interesting. That's like reaching out to a Mormon and using Joseph Smith and quoting him. It's like, "Is that how you reach out to people?" But they were creative in how they reached out.
Today, one of the fastest segments of American society is known as the nuns. If you think about this chart, they're probably down here somewhere. Not only do their knowledge poor, it's been contaminated. They already think they probably have a pretty good grasp of what Christianity is.
And sometimes, as we try to give the gospel message, that's what we call it, it can actually harm them. Because we're not dealing with people who have no concept. We're dealing with people who have an improper concept. Now, we can share the kingdom of God. That's one thing that I think there's universal appeal in.
Everyone can agree that things aren't right in our world. And the good news is that God has done something about this. But considering the worldview, the background, the audience, I think is very important. The other thing that's important here is it takes time to change.
I'd like to just think about this in terms of when you try to share a different worldview with someone as you're trying to share Christianity, for example, think about and compare it to how you see evolution right now.
Have you ever wondered what it would take to get you to embrace evolution? If someone come up to you and tried to explain to you the virtues of evolution. Here's a chart here. If you think about moving someone from a confident creationist over to a confident evolutionist, if I wanted to move you across that continuum, how would I do that? What if I walked up to you and gave you a track that said the answer is evolution?
Would that actually move you across that line? And probably not. Because when you have a deep-rooted worldview, it's hard to move across that line. But if I wanted to move you, I'd have to do this. I'd have to expose you to something that you didn't know or weren't aware of. It might be maybe new links in the evolutionary chain that we just found or doubt about the truth of the Bible.
And even then, it would take multiple exposures. You'd have to have a lot of proof. But if I was successful with that, if you moved a little, you would probably move over to investigation. Is this evidence really valid?
Now, even with all of this, you'd want to look at it from multiple angles. But let's just assume for a minute that the logic held. You would keep moving. You finally would get over here to doubt. Is there a possibility I might be wrong? Is that even a possibility? Now, here you are. You're caught between two beliefs. You're not over here at evolutionist yet, but you've been shaken. There's something there that's shaking you.
And if nothing changes in the facts you are investigating, you'll probably keep moving over to an awakening of evolution might be true. There's a possibility that could be. And your gaze would start to shift over toward a totally different worldview. And then finally, you could move clear on over to confidence that actually the world evolved.
And just a couple of things I want to think about in this chart. First of all, everyone you meet already has a worldview of some kind. And secondly, we change worldviews very slowly. We don't just quickly move across that. So if you go back to your unbelieving neighbor, maybe you're agnostic or you're atheist, what will it take to move them? Now, I want to remember, first of all, that no one comes.
John 6:44, "No one can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him." So we don't want to act like this is all mechanical here. God is at work here. But we're called to be workers together with him. But I want to suggest the path is very similar to you adopting a worldview of being an evolutionist.
So he's over here, and you'd have to, first of all, expose him to some fresh information. Now, remember, the Holy Spirit is pulling along this line. Satan is opposing the movement. Prayer is essential. But what might cause your neighbor to reconsider? Well, he's going to need something that shakes that worldview.
Secondly, assuming that happened, there would be an investigation. Is this new evidence really valid? Again, multiple exposures, time to investigate. Now, there are exceptions. I work in contexts sometimes where there's Muslims coming to faith. There's miracles. That can move people across this continuum very rapidly. But for many, this movement is actually very slow.
Then there would be doubt. Is there a possibility I might be wrong? There might be a time of inner wrestling. Sometimes this point in here, I think, is a place of major crisis, maybe a death or divorce or something that hits their life. Then there's an awakening. Jesus might be who he said he was. And the word of God works on the heart during this time, and hope begins to emerge. And finally, there's clear over to confident believer, confidence that Jesus Christ is Lord.
But again, for many, this is a slow process. Another comment I want to make here as you reach out to your neighbor. Sometimes we talk about bringing God to people or bringing Christ to people, but I think we need to live in confidence that God is actually already there.
He's been working with them. We're simply working together with him. But increasingly, if you look at this chart, Americans are over here on the left. Many people are in that segment there. 50 years ago, it was much different. People had a foundational fear of God. They were more over in this area. They were more interested in listening.
The general public, there was a basic understanding and a grasp of the fear of God. Our culture today, I think, is much more like Athens in current-day America. So what will it take today? I want to propose there's a need for disquieting exposure, something that shakes their presuppositions.
So again, if you go back here, this is our unbeliever on the chart over here, total unbelief. We want to reach out to him. But many times we reach out over here on the faith side, we give him a track which explains the gospel message. It really has no connection with him. He doesn't believe in God, so why would he fear judgment? It's like you giving me a track on evolution. It just doesn't penetrate.
So how do we reach this man? And that's where I would call disquieting exposure. And it could be apologetics. It could be his reasoning with him. But many times, I think it's unsettling evidence, something he sees that shakes his current worldview. And once he begins to question, then there's a possibility of moving over to where the things we're using, gospel tracks, those types of things can work. He's open to new thoughts.
Now, I want to say this. The Bible is powerful literature across this continuum. It does contain disquieting evidence. People read it, and they connect, and they understand that that's what the Bible is saying. It's what's going on inside me as well.
But increasingly, there's fewer and fewer people reading the Bible. And yet, they believe that they understand Christianity. They watch the news, and they see things like this. They see people carrying signs with hateful messages. Maybe it's a promoter of gun rights or a political movement, signs that portray all this. It may be very difficult to convince them that God is a God of love.
I think it's very important to consider the message we carry. And even our countenance, whatever it is we're carrying, are they seeing joy? Are they seeing love? Are they seeing peace? Let's go back for a little bit. What is it that provides this disquieting evidence? In other words, what are some examples of disquieting evidence? I just made a list here. I'll share, and there's more. Number one, believers willing to humbly discuss scientific evidence. There is a shortage of apologists in our churches, people who are interested in new discoveries, who aren't afraid to ask good questions. They aren't afraid to humbly admit there's much they don't know. There's a great need for that. Two, sacrificial love between believers, seeing people with different temperaments, personality, interests come together and love each other sacrificially.
And we see that in the Church of Acts. Right in the first chapters, we see different backgrounds of people all coming together. It says they were of one accord. That's a powerful witness to a world. People that are willing to give up strong personal preferences for the good of the brotherhood. It's a great witness. Three, businessmen who ensure you win in a transaction. This is rare in America.
As you think about your neighbors right now, they have a conclusion. They've drawn some conclusions about your church. They have some opinions. How do you think they got those opinions? How many of them have read your statement of faith for your church? Probably not very many. And I would propose that much of what they think about you was learned in the marketplace as they interacted with you, as they saw how much money means to you, as they developed an opinion of your values based on how you interact with them. But imagine a church that's famous for making sure that everybody wins in transactions. That would surely shake the faith of an unbeliever in our culture today.
Number four, believers who are vulnerable and honest with doubts. This is extremely powerful with an atheist. We are all drawn to people who are authentic and are open with their doubts. It's very compelling to a seeker. It's okay when we have a difficult question to say, "You know what? I'm not sure about that. I'm not even sure how to answer that. Can I think about that and get back to you later?"
Remember, we don't have to have the last word. The goal isn't to win the argument. The goal is to win the soul. Five, functional families who reach out to the dysfunctional. We'll come back to this later. And about just people having an abundance of good functional families. But we have a shortage of families willing to reach out. And this needs to be done carefully, but it needs to be done.
You're not going to reach out to the lost without being with them. And so do you actually have a love for them? And just think about the last year. How much time did you actually spend with unbelievers? You can look at the example of Matthew here, Luke 5. "And after these things, he went forth and saw a publican named Levi sitting at the receipt of custom. And he said unto him, 'Follow me.' And he," I mean Matthew, "left all, rose up, and followed him. Notice, 'And Levi made him,'" Jesus, "a great feast in his own house. There were a great company of publicans and others that sat down with them." Notice Levi's response to salvation.
He invited his friends to his house. And it was his house, and Jesus was there. But Levi wanted to reach out to his neighbors, and he used his home. And we'll come back to that later. And finally, six, literature which challenges the reader's position without questioning his dignity or intellect. I think we need to be careful what we hand out. Remember, they have a worldview. They have facts to back it up.
Simplistic tracks, I believe, can feel very condescending to people. When we have little trite statements that are trying to address complex questions, that can feel very condescending to people. Now, our lives end up here on disquieting evidence. Our lives in our church community should be providing disquieting evidence. There was a man in a community we used to live in that said this, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." And that's a very common saying. We're all familiar with that. But he would say he used to work with horses. He'd say this, "But you can give him salt, and salt creates thirst." And so the question that I think we should be pondering is, first of all, is my life making people thirsty?
Is my life providing disquieting evidence? And another question, is my church community making people thirsty? Are they seeing enough sacrificial love in my church community to provide that disquieting exposure or evidence? Putting our homes on the altar. We tend to think of our homes as a quiet sanctuary, maybe a retreat from sin around us. And it is to be that. But it is also to be a place to demonstrate Jesus.
We have not done well at this for many. I could give many excuses. But we do have some neighbors that come. Yesterday, I walked in the house, and my wife was talking to a neighbor just around the corner here from us. Young couple, couple of small children. They're confused about life. They've looked at philosophy. They are just trying. They're just seeking. And they have just come and they should come pretty regular and just spend time in our home asking questions about this and that, about life in general.
They've never came to church. Right now, we're just developing a relationship with them. And there's lots of opportunities. There's lots of hunger out there for what we have in our homes. And that's a big topic. Care needs to be taken in how you do that, in exposure to children. I address some of that in the book Reaching America. But I just want to leave us with a godly home as a powerful tool. There's a passage that we often neglect. And it's Jesus' instruction on how to make out a guest list. And you'll notice in Luke 14, it's familiar. And yet, do we actually take this instruction to heart? Luke 14:12, he said also to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid.
But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." So Jesus in this passage tells us who not to have and who to have.
And this has fascinated me because all of us as Bible readers know the Old Testament is very explicit and specific. When God wants to be specific, he can be, right down to which toe to put the blood on and so forth. When you get to the New Testament, there's a real lack of specifics.
Just try to find instructions on how to marry someone or how to ordain a leader or etc. So when Jesus speaks this specifically, I think we should set up and take notice. Again, we have good homes. And it's a gift we should be sharing, finding creative ways to share that with other people.
Another approach we need to think about is seeing business as mission. And I mentioned earlier, what is your neighbor's opinion about your church? It's a huge opportunity. We've been given huge business ability and opportunity. It's a great place to demonstrate Jesus.
And we should be teaching and demonstrating how that is to be done in our businesses. Now, I want to look at some potential Anabaptist obstacles. What are the hurdles we may be placing in front of potential seekers?
And should we worry about that?
In other words, are we laying unnecessary burdens on seekers? That word unnecessary, I think, is important. There was a concern, and these words come from Acts 15, obviously. But I think this should still be a concern. In other words, are we asking more than God would in our situation of people? Now, there are some hurdles we should not be ashamed of. Jesus gave many difficult commands. We can think of divorce and remarriage, two kingdom teaching, defenseless living, on and on. We shouldn't be embarrassed defending Jesus' teachings. That's not legalism. But our greatest challenge and question and what we wrestle with, I think, are agreements or decisions we come up with that are designed to enhance, help, promote, even preserve a counterculture lifestyle.
God doesn't give us explicit instructions on how to survive in 2021. America is a difficult place to survive. And so we have biblical principles. We come together, and as communities, hopefully, we prayerfully consider. We want a safe path for ourselves and our children. But while we're doing this, we should also be wrestling with this question. Are we placing an unnecessary burden on seekers? And there's going to be a tension between those two, between preserving and promulgating.
Sometimes the obstacles from our perspective are different than we imagine. And so I want to look at what are the real obstacles that seekers face. And there's other lists. I went out a few years ago. I had to give a presentation, asked to give a presentation. And so I went out and just tried to find as many individuals who are currently in an Anabaptist community who come from a non-Anabaptist background.
And I wanted to know several things. I wanted to know, like when they walked in the door for the first time, what were the huge hurdles they saw, the obstacles? When they joined a community, what were the hurdles they've had to overcome and wrestle with?
Just so I don't forget, I would encourage any of you to do this. Sit down with people who have come from a non-Anabaptist background, spend time listening to them. It doesn't mean that all their observations are correct even. But I think we have a lot to learn. I hope they'll come back to that. I want to just give a few things that I did here. Think about the obstacles they face. Just think about Anabaptist cultural obstacles from a non-Anabaptist background believers. First of all, assume they would not be welcome.
Many of them said this. They knew who the Anabaptist people were, but they just assumed that they probably would not be welcome there. And I just want to say this. It's going to take more than just a sign in front of your building. It's a posture. It's a way we live. It's how we interact with others. Second, aloof and condescending attitude, cultural pride. This one was consistent.
I had an individual that called me several years ago, and they said this. They said, "Originally, I joined an Anabaptist church because I was on a spiritual journey. I wanted to get closer to God. I saw there were doctrinal issues in my evangelical church that were not being lived out, and so I wanted more." But as I look around today, what I'm seeing many times is people who are not on a journey. They think they've already arrived.
And I thought I was joining a group who was still trying to get closer to God. But in reality, I think I've joined a group that actually feels like that they've arrived at the epitome of where they should be.
And sometimes we don't listen well. And that's because we assume maybe subconsciously we have little to learn. Sometimes we show very little curiosity about their lives even because we just have the answers. But I think this one is huge. Aloof and condescending attitude. I think it was consistent in almost everyone that I talked to. It come out in some way.
Another is non-resistance in the hard sayings of Christ we mentioned earlier. It's a barrier that they come across. One that was mentioned repeatedly was gluttony, an undue focus on food. One sister said, "Why do you just keep sending food around the table and telling people to eat more and more? What's going on?" And what we call hospitality, she saw as gluttony.
And she didn't feel very good about this cultural practice from a biblical perspective. She talked about a poor use of resources. One said, "Why are you so strong on some Bible verses, but you neglect this one?" Good question.
Hypocrisy, recreational activities, dress, etc. So golf is out, downhill skiing is out. And yet you waste resources and time and money on all kinds of expensive hunting trips and four-wheelers and snowmobiles and that type of thing. Or in dress. So you don't have the men don't wear a necktie because that's ornamental or unnecessary or fashionable, a waste of money, all kinds of reasons why you don't do that. And yet women come to church maybe in a plain dress, some fancy scarf around their neck. It's obviously not to keep warm. What's going on here? Why is one okay and the other isn't? It's a cultural obstacle.
Apologetic about counterculture lifestyle. We tell people sometimes in all kinds of ways that our culture isn't very important to us. We might do that verbally or even by how we embrace it. We're apologetic. Recently, I had an individual who was an atheist at one time. Today, he's a very devout member in an Anabaptist. In fact, he's a leader in an Anabaptist community.
He made this comment. He said, "Quit trying to imitate culture. Don't be afraid to be different." In other words, would you join a group that wasn't excited about their culture? If they're apologetic all the time, why would you want to be part of that group?
Another, sometimes people perceive they are a project. Scheduled hospitality. And this has happened in our community. We've had a lot of seekers, people coming through. And so we will take turns being responsible to have someone in our home to make sure that somebody has a place to go.
And later on, they found out that this was actually a schedule. They just assumed people wanted to be with them. They felt like a project. Again, it doesn't mean it's a wrong thing to do, but be open about what's going on. It can be a way that they feel.
Weird songs and phrases, a different language. We have so many songs memorized. Many times before we have prayer and a meal, we'll say, "Let's sing so and so." We all burst into song. And the one person sits there and looks around, and they have no idea what you're doing here. It's an obstacle, a cultural obstacle that makes them feel different.
Frustration, seeing drift toward the culture they left. They feel like they're headed one way away from the world. And they've given up everything to walk a counterculture lifestyle. And yet they're seeing young people straining against the fences and going the other direction, back toward the world. That's very confusing to them. Can be very discouraging.
Appearance, fear of the evangelical friends. This is one that came up. This is one we typically think about. There's an assumption that one person mentioned that they were afraid to go back to their family reunion the first time. Just assuming the first thing people saw them, they would assume that they're being saved by works and that they're part of some legalistic cult.
Appearance isn't as big as I had assumed, but it can be an issue for some. Hospitality, feelings of inadequacy. Another big one. Not used to having company. I had one sister ask me, "Why didn't someone teach us how to have company?" I didn't know how to have company. How do you have people in your home? I'd never done that before.
Shallow conversation, reluctance to share. One lady told me she'd been a Mennonite for 15 years, and no one had ever shared a deep struggle they're having. She said, "I know their struggles being a counseling center or booked, but lots of shallow talk." There's many more examples.
This is an incomplete list, but these are real cultural obstacles that people feel. And again, I want to encourage you, if you have people in your community who came from a non-Anabaptist background, take time to sit down and just listen. Just listen to how they felt.
I don't think we in many of our churches realize how much we need people who were raised outside of our culture. They have so much to share with us, and we can learn so much from them. Importance of listening to seekers.
Seekers are good at spotting our deficiencies. And sometimes we don't like that. And we're not always interested in listening, but take time to do that. And finally, I want to look at New Testament church communities. We read about the vibrant churches in Acts and the Reformation.
But what about church today? How important is church life? And one of the things that's happening more and more here in America is people who can't seem to get along anywhere. And so they've got lots of answers, but they're kind of off by themselves somewhere.
What does that how does God feel about that? And I want to, again, give a disclaimer as I move into this one. I am not an expert on church life. None of us have arrived. Every church I know of struggles at times, and most of us struggle all the time. That's just part of church life.
But I do think we need to keep discussing this and asking, "What is God wanting today?"
First of all, the church, there is no plan B. Now, I work for a parachurch organization with a salt program. And it's very easy to get excited about parachurch activities and mission organizations. But I think it's essential we keep coming back and realize that there is nothing as important or as exciting as local church. That's where Christianity is demonstrated. It's where it's lived out. It's hard work, but it's God's plan.
I've thought about it this way. Too often we shop around, I think, for a church where I can truly live, where I can just live there. But actually, church is designed as a place where we go to die, not just to live. It's a place where we are committing and giving up. It's a place a little like marriage, where we learn so much about our own selfishness. It's a place where we have to submit to others. And that's part of God's intent is to develop. I really believe sometimes in America—this is partly due to affluence—but about the time God is working in our own life in our church community, where things get tight and we're starting to learn and actually God is able to work inside my own heart, I jump up and move somewhere else to another community and don't give God the chance to actually work within me.
Sacrificial love, it's a powerful billboard. I mentioned this earlier. Jesus said, "This is how you're going to know where my believers are." It's like a billboard that says, "Jesus is here." He said this in John 13, "By this, all men will know that you're my disciples if you have love one for another."
This is probably the most neglected verse on evangelism. But notice it's not how much you're loving the seeker, although that's important. Jesus is saying it's how much you love your brother. How much are you willing to give up your own will? And that is noticed by seekers.
Sacrificial love, I think today seekers are searching for authentic community. They are looking for a group of people who are committed to each other, willing to lay down their own little personal preferences and live together in community. I've been interested many times in thinking about the tour buses that circle through Amish communities. Why are they there? And you can say, "Well, it's partly due to people who are living. People see them as stuck in their past." But I think there's something else. I think there's something very intriguing to an American. The thought of these people are submitting their life to a larger cause, to a larger community.
There's something attractive about that. In individualistic America, in the loneliness and alienation that people think or feel, there's something that pulls people there.
Church life, multiplication, it was God's idea. God is the author of multiplication. You can plant corn and you get more back. All that is from God. It's a very basic principle in nature. It's a principle in business. There has to be profit to survive.
But church life is the same. And I think we should be concerned if multiplication isn't happening. It may not always be possible to plant churches. But I think we should recognize that an inability to multiply isn't normal. That's not how God thinks. God does think in terms of multiplication.
The historic Anabaptist challenge. Except during times of persecution, there's always been a challenge between preservation and promulgation or offense and defense in the church. And I want to put a chart up here. I use this chart as in Reaching America. And like all illustrations, it isn't perfect. But it may, I think, help us visualize a little bit of this challenge. So I want to start with a continuum here.
On the right, you see a family church. And on the left, you see a church family. So a family church, what I'm calling a family church, is a group of believers you worship with. It's a biological family unit is preeminent and where the goal of the church is to bless the family.
And on the other end, on the left, you have church family. And this is where the community of believers to which you—this is a community of believers to which you are committed and accountable. The group is preeminent and the goal of the family is to bless the church.
Now, take just a moment and identify your congregation on this line. What level of commitment is there in the people there? And we'll come back to that later. But I want to look at another continuum. So this is one part of church life, but there's another one. Church life wasn't intended just so we can enjoy ourselves. So I put a vertical continuum here. On the top is evangelistic or intentional about reaching out locally. And the bottom is little focus on local outreach.
So if you look at these two continuums, identify your church on the vertical one as well. How interested is your church community on reaching out to your neighbor? Not even talking about programs necessarily, but a genuine interest in your neighbor.
Now, these two continuums, if you identify yourself on both of them, also describe what I'll call four different church models. So I have these identified as one, two, three, and four. I'll start with number four, the bottom right. It's a church community that's weak on community and weak on outreach. You could call this one maybe a social club. Move over to model three. It is strong on community, but it's weak on outreach. So they're probably preserving their culture. They take good care of their own. If you're in this community and your business burns, they will be there the next day or the next week to help you rebuild. There's also in number three, usually a lifetime commitment.
But there's also very little interest in other people. They tend to be ingrown and think about themselves. Model two, the top right. There's strong focus on outreach. There's probably a mission board and a kids' club and a jail ministry and lots of that, but very little commitment to the church community. In fact, the average member may have only been there a few years. And if they find a better church, they might move again.
They might move on down the road.
I want to propose that model one is what Jesus actually had in mind. That's where there's a strong commitment to each other and a strong love for your neighbor as well. And there's no question this one is difficult to maintain. In fact, I would say that Satan will fight this one. You will run into satanic opposition to this one. I don't think maybe Satan doesn't care too much if we're strong on community and weak on outreach. Maybe he doesn't care that much if we're weak on community and strong on outreach. But when you get those two together, when you get strong commitment to community, sacrificial love, and a desire to reach out and share with your neighbor, Satan will fight that.
But in spite of that, I want to encourage each of us to aim for God's best. Don't stop dreaming. Even though none of us would say, "Yeah, that's where we're at. We're on number one." Let's keep aiming for that.
But while we have this chart up here, I want to share what I observed today in Anabaptist churches during times of prosperity. And that is a continual migration from model three to model two. And people leave model three for good reasons.
Many times there's a lack of good biblical teaching or a lack of interest in the neighbor, lack of outreach. But in that move, something is lost. And usually it's a loss of community. They may have found an area or a church that's less restrictive. But I think seekers sense that something is missing in model two. They sense there's a lot of talk, but there's a lack of sacrificial love there. And again, none of us have arrived. But try to think about where is your community on these four models. And then wherever you are, wherever you find yourself, I just want to encourage you to do what you can to move your community toward a model one.
Model one isn't easy. Model one means dying to self. We live in an American culture, very individualistic. But model one is an admission that submitting, dying to self, submitting to my local brotherhood is actually connected to outreach. There's actually a connection there.
I want to conclude there. We face many obstacles in America and reaching out. And some of those we can't do anything about, but some we can. And I want to encourage us to focus on what we can. It's a time of tremendous resources and opportunity in America. We're living in an age like I think it's never been before. And so we should be doing what we can to bless and advance the kingdom of God. Some of the obstacles that we face can be opportunities. Sometimes what we see as obstacles can be opportunities. One of the things that I think about many times is this area of dress. We don't like to talk about it, and yet it keeps coming up.
And it's kind of an expression of who we are to other people. And we don't always like what it portrays. And I understand that. But we work some with Muslim refugees here in Boise. And our modest dress is a huge opportunity. It just opens all kinds of doors.
And one more thing I want to say just about this thing of dress is this. I have noticed this: that if we love people, if we care about people, if we demonstrate, if we're interested in people, some of these strange distinctives are not even noticed by the people. There's such a craving out there for just acceptance, for belonging, and for love.
God bless each of you as you reach out to your neighbor. Thank you for the opportunity to share. And I will turn it back over to you, Wendell.
Well, thank you so much, Gary, for sharing that. One thing that stuck out to me there, you told us, "Don't stop dreaming about what church should be like." And thank you. Thank you for that challenge. We need that and that reminder.
Looking for God's best in church life. And that means strong community and strong outreach. Yeah. Okay. So I filled a couple of pages, actually, with some scratchings I was doing while you were talking, Gary. And I have a couple of questions. But maybe just one to get us started here is: so you talked about sacrificial love in the community being a billboard saying, "Jesus is here."
So I guess my question as I was thinking about that is, how does the outsider see that happening? Yeah. I'm questioning about that. So maybe you have some thoughts on that, Gary. Good question. Obviously, they have to interact with a community to see that.
I have noticed this. We've had times in our church community where there's been tension. And I think a seeker senses that instinctively pretty quickly when they come in the door. There's just something in the air that they sense.
I had another time on the other side here recently where we were actually at a park. And it was a Muslim friend. In fact, it's a family who stayed on our property. They're refugees. They had six children, just recently stayed for a while. And they got to know several of our people here. He had no exposure to Christianity, really. And he was standing there looking around. He's been around for a while now. And he said, "You know, in my culture, family is everything." He said, "If you belong to family, you just belong. I mean, they take care of you." But he said, "What I see you doing is trying to develop a family out of other families."
And I said, "Well, that's exactly right. That's actually what Jesus had in mind. That's what he came to do. So the orphan has a place, and the widow has a place. And it's a place where everybody's welcome, regardless of your back." He said, "So you're saying that anybody's welcome then? I mean, even I could join this group." I said, "Absolutely. That's how it is." Now, all that being said, don't get a picture that in my community, we have that little snapshot every day. That's not how it is. But it just struck me that he expressed exactly what I long for in community. I think that's what Jesus had in mind is enough caring for each other, enough love internally that it's even seen externally.
Amen.
Yeah. Thank you. Okay. I'm sure the rest of you have questions. And so go ahead and pose them for Gary. Maybe this isn't exactly a question, but one thing that I've found helpful in working with people from other backgrounds is it seems like sometimes the outsiders almost need a particular person or family to feel connected to. It's difficult for them to feel connected to everybody. And it almost feels like it's helpful if one of the families really takes them under their wing, so to speak, and really makes them feel like family. And maybe spends Thanksgiving with them or Christmas or makes them feel connected in a way that everybody can, but more of a personal connection.
We were working with one family that moved over from Germany and is looking at joining our church. And it's just been whenever they come into the area, they stay at our place most of the time. And it's just been a, I think, a good relationship there. And I think that's important.
Yeah. Thank you for that. I want to make one comment on that. It's good for people to have a close relationship. But I think a church that loves each other intensely and has a clear vision, they don't make a project out of a person. So in other words, we had a situation here several years ago with a couple that had marriage issues from the area here.
The home was dysfunctional. And we, at one point, just encouraged them to go to another home and talk to them and go to several homes. And they came back, and it was refreshing to them that we had enough confidence to tell them to go somewhere else. It's like it gave more impact than if we would have tried to do it alone. And so there's a place, I think, for personal connection. And yet there's also a place where community comes in and is a beautiful thing when they sense that, "Hey, go talk to them." There's no strings attached to our family. You can just go be with someone else as well. Good point, though. People do need that personal connection.
Brother Gary, thank you so much for your presentation. And yes, thrilling, exciting. I really appreciate your book as well. And I was going to ask you to talk a little bit about that diagram that you'd drawn there in chapter 13 that you just shared there on A Closer Look. It's called where you look at the continuum that people tend to go on from strong community to weak community, but willing to do that because they want to have strong outreach. And you're wanting us to go the other way. And I really appreciate that.
But one of the things I find interesting in your book is you talk very little about programs, specific programs that your community can do. So I'm curious, even in your presentation this morning, I have a suspicion why that is, but I would love to hear you talk about it.
Why have you not talked about that? And also, is there any programs that your church can do that you think would be something good together? Yeah. It's a good point. You've pointed out I tend to write about things where I think there's a need. And so I don't tend to think we have a need for more focus on programs.
I'm not against programs. Obviously, I work in the salt program, so I'm not opposed to that. And we even have a program called Salt and Light that's used in church communities here in America. It's a way to be you can take a training program, learn how to reach out to your neighbor through it. I'm all excited about that. But I'll have to admit that even while developing that program, I was concerned that the Anabaptists would say, "Oh, there's a program how to reach out to my neighbor." And actually, the majority of reaching out to your neighbor is simply being with them and caring about them. And so as we designed the program, Salt and Light, it is very effective.
It's a way to reach out. But really, it's a way to build a relationship. Don't think of local outreach as something where you can just sign up and pay money and get a little program. It's all real easy. It's just a lot of hard work. It just means spending time with people that aren't always real easy to get along with and have struggled in their life and they're dysfunctional. If you think about the people that Jesus was encouraging his followers to be with, they weren't the easiest folks to be around, I'm sure. They were the needy people. They were those that had struggles.
And so we've developed a certain lifestyle many times. We like our lifestyle. And when I think about reaching out to my neighbor, sometimes it feels like that my lifestyle might be under attack. And I might have to change something. And I don't want that. And so I walk away from it.
But I guess my plea would be I'm not against programs, but don't assume that programs are the answer to reaching out locally. I think it has to do with our heart. Our lives are so busy. And it means many times giving up some things that I enjoy so that I can be with someone and reach out to them and spend time with them.
If that helps or not, Brian.
And I must say this will pet people's mind.
People with students that I noticed here at Penn State or the successful campus ministries are the ones where there's individuals or couples who are opening up their homes and welcoming into their homes. And the one family in particular is very hospitable and uses their home. The door is always unlocked and quite successful in reaching out. And they say that students are so tired of programming.
They want to know, "Who are you?" And opening up your home is just such an incredible way to do that. And that's one thing I really appreciate about your book. You talk about hospitality and also how to use our businesses. And I really appreciate that. Also, I just got done reading a book on the early church called The Patient Ferment of the Early Church. And the writer says that the first 200, 300 years, there's almost no writing on evangelism.
It was like an unintended consequence of discipleship and focus on a church as family, which was incredibly counterculture. But yeah, it's amazing. So I really appreciate your book and your focus there and your emphasis. Thank you. Just one more thing with regard to reaching out to neighbors. It's a whole topic, actually. And there's people in my community that are much better at it than I am. But one of the ways that I've found the fastest ways to build a relationship with people is not giving them things or doing things for them, but it's asking them to help you.
Whenever we leave on a trip, we try to ask a neighbor, the unbelieving neighbor, to feed the dog or whatever it is. And that makes them feel needed and part of our life. Sometimes we think the more we give people, the more they'll respond. Sometimes just the opposite. The more we ask of people, we show them we are needy people too. We have needs in our life as well.
You mentioned a condescending attitude can be a hindrance. And I think I often sense a condescending attitude toward homosexuals.
I'm just wondering, how can we be clear about what God says about homosexuality without having a condescending attitude toward them? Yeah. It's a good question. First of all, there are people on this call that could do a better job of answering that than I can.
The condescending part, and really homosexual or not, the condescending part, I think, has a lot to do with we're not with other people very much. We tend to be with our own people. And so it's easy in that isolated, insular setting to develop wrong impressions about people, wrong feelings about people. And that can apply to the homosexual community as well. That's just one more type of sin, just like divorce and remarriage and on and on. And so I think part of it is simply just our lack of exposure to other people. But we don't want to back up on the sin of that sin. It still is sin. And yet find a way to reach out in love to them and care about them as a person.
But I think there's others on here that could probably answer that a lot better than I can.
I think you mentioned earlier viewing ourselves as on a journey. When we consider that we are on a journey in a relationship, I use the illustration on a scale of 1 to 10. If a murderer is a 1 and I'm a 10, God is 10,000. And it doesn't matter where we are. We are way closer to the bottom than we are to the top. And we just have to get that in our head and realize that we have not achieved.
That's good.
Good morning, Gary.
I was just wondering if you could share any thoughts on protecting our children in doing family outreach. I know for us, that was a question that was often posed to us. And I'd just like to hear your thoughts.
Very good question. I have a chapter or two in the book on that. I probably have time right now to go through all of it. But it is very important in our culture. I don't want to minimize that at all.
Just a couple of thoughts. One family talked about they never allowed their children to be out of their sight. They worked with college students. They didn't know these college students. They didn't know much about them sometimes. And so they never allowed their children to go somewhere alone.
And they just commented on the fact that they were glad their house was small because that just helped everybody be inside all the time. And I thought that was a fascinating encouragement. But yeah, again, there's probably people here that could tell a lot more than I can. I tried to go through. I went out in writing the book and interviewed people who do this a lot, who have a lot of people in their homes. And so I just called around different parts, different communities, and asked for names. And then went out and interviewed people and said, "What are the precautions you take? How do you guard your children?" And many times, there were comments like this that sometimes there's things said or things done, expressions used, language that would not be their choice.
But they said that many times after they leave, after the visitor leaves, they sit down with their children and talk through that. And one husband told me he's much more comfortable with that, that opportunity to share in that context than just letting his children find out on their own.
Another person commented they never allow technology, smartphones, and that kind of thing in their home. They just ask the people not to use them. Or another family said they ask them not to show videos and that kind of thing. And there's different tactics people have used. But again, my observation has been that we have an individual right now that comes fairly frequently. And I know she dresses differently in town than she does when she comes to our home because we've seen her there. She's a college student. She likes to come and spend time. But she always dresses much more modestly when she comes to our home than she would in town. There's a certain level of respect that people tend to have when you are willing to open up your home that isn't normally there.
So I think sometimes we scare ourselves. Now, on the other side of this, there have been cases of abuse. There's been bad situations. And so I don't want to undermine that at all. I think we need to be very, very careful and cognizant of the culture we're living in today.
But maybe others have more thoughts on it.
Yeah. Thank you for that answer, Gary, or those thoughts. And thank you for the question, Peter. I think that's an important one and one I was thinking about too. Maybe there's some more thoughts on that.
Okay. Including our children in our ministry is helping them to see that as a ministry as well. It gives them a different focus. We're not exposing them to the evil, but we're exposing them to ministry and to helping people and reaching out. They can be part of that.
Good morning. Gary, you mentioned that we should do all we can to move our churches toward number one. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on how to do that coming from a 2, 3, or a 4. How do we do that without losing some of the other? How do we keep that focus? And sometimes we face resistance toward that, focusing on there's a lot of focus on family or there's not an interest in outreach. And sometimes we face resistance toward moving toward a number one. How can we do that humbly and graciously? Any thoughts there?
It's a very good question. And of course, it's very difficult to answer as well because you're looking at a broad spectrum of possibilities. I would say this. So what I had as a model too, I believe I don't have the chart in front of me right now, of where there's a lot of interest in outreach but not a lot in community.
I had a church leader tell me one time that he said that he has a lot of he has youth sometimes that they're all about doing something big, that they want some change that needs to happen here overnight. We need to start reaching out. We need to do more. But he says, "I have the sense that their commitment here is about zilch, that they're just barely in the church. They have one foot in the church and one foot they're going to leave if I don't do what they say." So he said, "I have this tension inside is that we're tearing up my congregation to make the change that I might agree with when they might be gone next year anyway."
And I think that's a real fear that leaders have is, "What you're saying as a young person might be correct. But how strong is your commitment to this group?" And I've wondered before if a young person would say this first, that, "I want you to know," speaking to their leader, "I want you to know that I'm committed here. I am planning on staying right here. I'm committed to this group. Here are my concerns.
If we might be more effective if we first laid down our own life and said, 'I'm going to do whatever I can to make this work,' instead of this thing of, 'If I don't get my way, I'm going to hit the highway. I'm out of here if this doesn't work out right.'" And so I don't know if that helps or not. But I think there does need to be a level of commitment there. I know I'm saying some people, that's very difficult for them to hear. But I think there does need to be a level of commitment in any setting if we're going to work together and actually move our communities.
So yeah, I'm not sure I can answer that totally. It is a broad range of problems as you look at the other three models.
And if that helps or not, maybe someone else has a better thought. Can I ask something off the cuff? Absolutely. I have a halfway house in Chambersburg. I would love to have the Salt and Light program presented. To date, there's a lot of people that have talked about it, discussed it, thought about it. Nothing has happened. Since I've got a pool of people that you can come mentor to, how do I get you, Gary, to lend your social equity to have this happen?
Well, I understand. And this is a problem. This is the number one problem we've run into in the Salt and Light program. It's not that the program, if you want to call it that, doesn't work. It's that when we have people come for training and about after the first several sessions, there's this glazed look that comes over their eye. And they're realizing that, "You know what? If I actually went down this road, I'd have to change my way of life."
And so yeah, maybe we can put out some exciting idea to get people to a meeting. But there has to be a genuine interest in reaching out that's strong enough. You missed the point. I have a halfway house with 12 who want this program. You send someone to do it.
You mean someone to come and train? No. Someone to come and teach. So someone local. Everything that I've tried to do is create ponds where you guys can fish. I've got a pond. I have 12 men that want this. Come and fish.
Okay. So I live in Idaho. It's a little tough. But we'd be glad to come and help teach individuals in your community. If you have someone in your community, there's a lot of Anabaptists there. So I'm sure you can find someone there that would be willing to teach it. Again, you missed it. I've had this going for two years, a discussion to do Salt and Light. People have talked about it, but nobody's done anything to date. So either my pond isn't good enough or the people aren't prepared enough. I need help.
You mean you are already using the Salt and Light program? I have a halfway house with men from prison that want to take the Salt and Light program. I've been waiting for a year for a group of men to pull it together. They haven't. So you opened the opportunity for me to ask you to use your social equity to have this happen.
So let me understand. Are you saying that in your community, there's not enough interest? You don't have enough men to do it, to teach it?
It's been a year that we've been talking about it and nothing has happened. So I would take there are people that are unable or untrained enough to do it.
Yeah. Well, we can provide the materials, the training. Social equity is what I need. You know people that have taken the program. If you call them and say, "Hey, there's a group of people in Chambersburg that really want this program, let's put our foot where we say we want to." Now, don't take me for a jerk. I'm going to back out because I need to. That's fine.
That's fine. And I'm sure there are people in the Chambersburg area that would be glad to help. I've got that confidence. There's enough people there. We just need to find a way to do that. And I do. Well, maybe I live a ways away.
Yeah.
So yeah, Patrick is trying to get us motivated to maybe motivate someone else. So yeah. That's good. So yeah, any other questions?
So this actually kind of ties into what Patrick was asking, Gary. I have this one question. What's your big deal about the when you're talking about the evangelism scale, you have that local thing there. What's the big deal with that?
Why is that so important? You're saying why is local more important than somewhere else? Right.
The only reason I'm focused on that probably is that's what this book was about, was reaching America. And so yeah, obviously, in the Salt program, we work in 20 countries. And so we do work in other countries. But wherever we are locally, there's plenty to do right there. Now, I don't think that means we ignore distant. There's great needs around the globe.
In fact, that should be part of our ministry as well, is finding ways to help around the globe as well. So I don't know if that's answering your question or not. But I'm not saying it's exclusively right where we are. But all of us are going to be somewhere. And so wherever that is, I think we should be in that setting, reaching out to people, neighbors, so forth.
Right. Yeah. Thank you. I guess for myself, I've found it easier to do evangelism somewhere away from home. And I think that's just a reality that we all face. And I think we need that challenge too. We're called to be Jesus calls us Salt and Light. And that happens primarily, I believe, in our local neighborhoods.
And yeah, I guess that's been one of the motivations for us to move to Pittsburgh here. I was involved in evangelism in Pittsburgh years ago as a young person. And we would come and do street meetings in Pittsburgh. And then we would go back home to our safe places.
So yeah. Any other questions or thoughts? I guess we had one on the chat, but I believe Peter shared that then. So anything else yet before we wrap this up? It's been really good. I would like to say, Gary, I really enjoyed your presentation. I was on pins and needles. It was concise and to the point and very well thought out. I really enjoyed your presentation, brother.
Thank you. And Lord bless you there. I hope you can find the support. And yeah, I'd be glad to talk to you. And thank you for your help to find it. I'd be glad to talk to you later on if I can connect in some way with finding people there.
I'm sorry.
Hey, Gary? Yes.
Do you understand the Salt and Light program correctly? Can I make one comment on that? The Salt and Light program is more not that you come and fish, but you give us the fishing line so we can do it. Is that correct?
That is correct. So what we're doing is providing materials.
So we're using economics or we're using finance as a vehicle to build relationships with people. And so when people come from the community, they usually come with issues of finance. And it can be our own young people as well. But it's just simply a way of coming together and walking through. It's a very interactive program. But it's a way of helping people grasp their own need from within. We use lots of stories of other people, which we all like that. We like to talk about stories of other people that are failing. But our goal is to eventually get to where they say, "That's a lot like I am actually as well. That's a struggle that I have with money."
Money is an interesting thing. One of the reasons that I have been attracted to it, I think, especially with regard to outreach, is it gets into just about every area of our life. A few years ago, we had a Hispanic couple here in our community. They were struggling with their finances. And they came over and they were going through their budget and their checkbook. And they were spending more than they should. And so I asked them, I said, "Look at your expenses and just think about what could you cut out?" And they got down to cable TV. And one of them turned to the other one and said, "Do we have to have cable TV to survive?"
And he stopped, kind of froze about then as he suddenly realized whose house he was sitting in and that we don't have television. And so we had probably a half-hour discussion about television, about why we choose not to.
And we would have never gotten there without economics. Economics, it was the vehicle that got us to talk about just the blessing of not having a television in the home. So that's what the course does. It uses economics. But the goal is not really economics. We want to help through economics. But we also want to help build a relationship with them and provide a platform for that. So yes, we provide the materials for that and training for it. But we're relying on local people to actually do the work. You're right.
So that puts the fishing line in Patrick's hand. Is that correct? That's what I was trying to do. What do you mean putting it in my hand? I'm running a program. I have 12 men. I have a business I'm building. But I have a community that professes that they want to outreach. And I'm trying to give the string to them. I created a pond where you can fish. Now come, fish. I have a gentleman named Darren. He got about $160,000 after 26 years in prison. And I can't tell you how hard it was to talk him off the edge. He was going to buy a Harley-Davidson. He was going to buy this. He went into a car dealership.
He was going to buy two cars. And I'm discussing these principles with him like, "You don't need this." And I finally got him to buy a house. Because I explained to him, he can't sleep under a Harley-Davidson. But he can sleep in a house. But I'm doing my end. I'm overwrought. That's why I'm asking you to come grab the line.
Yeah. I appreciate that. And I feel your pain in that. There does need to be—and I'm sure there are people around there. We need to find ways to connect you with them or them with you. Maybe they're on the call today. Maybe there's somebody on here from Chambersburg, I'm guessing. I don't know.
I'm whipping the fishing rod around a little bit, trying to thread the eyes. Yeah. I've sensed that. That's great.
Yes. I have a question. Go ahead.
What do we do if we belong to a community where when Jesus sent his 70 disciples out, he said they were supposed to go to the house of Israel and not to the Samaritan cities? And we're told that means we're only supposed to go to our church people.
Good question. And I'm probably not very qualified to answer. I do work with communities sometimes that would be that way. I was in a setting one time. I remember I gave a presentation. And after that, I sat down to lunch with a large group of men. They were all from one community. And I started to say something. And the man sitting next to me said, "Just a minute, Gary." And he turned to the rest of them and said, "Now you need to understand, Gary comes from a church where they actually want people to come in from the outside." Now go ahead, Gary. Go ahead and talk.
And so I know that does exist. And I don't have any down pat answers. I actually get quite a few phone calls from people asking me that question of, "Should I stay in my church or not?" I'm not qualified always to ever, probably, to answer that question for people.
Yeah, very difficult. Maybe there's someone here that can do a better job. I'm not sure how to encourage you right now.
What can we do to start on a small scale once?
Well, I think all of us can reach out to our neighbor. In your setting, would there be opposition to reaching out to your neighbor? As long as I wasn't inviting the church.
But even that can be a start of sharing and caring about him and showing the love of Jesus. And the Lord can do amazing things too. I would encourage you to keep praying. I've seen communities change when they—I think sometimes the idea of someone successfully coming from a different culture and joining a culture like yours is like an impossibility.
And it doesn't have to be. And so I just would encourage you to keep praying toward that and keep reaching out. None of us believe that our church community is the only church community.
I'm very thankful that our neighbors over here that we're working with, if they end up joining a group that I would view as a biblical group, we're not in competition here. We're not all trying to see who can steal sheep from each other. We're wanting to move people closer to the kingdom of God. So maybe there's input from others of you. I think there's probably people on this call that have come from a background more that way, maybe a model 3, that could speak into this.
Well, Gary, I think you touched on something that is very important. And that is the people who often are interested in outreach are the people who are really critical of the group where they are, criticizing them for not reaching out and maybe even criticizing them for culture and all kinds of things. And they basically, through the years, have given the church the concept that people who want to do outreach are people who are the least loyal to the church. And I think we need to really work on that. I think if we want to do outreach, we should work on establishing the fact that we love our church, we support what they represent, we want to build the church as much as we want to reach out to people.
I have people call me from communities where young people are really excited about evangelism, excited about all kinds of things. And they say, "Well, the older generation, they're just dragging their feet." And I say to them, "Well, you build strong relationships with that older generation. And you stay in your church, like you said, change is slow, except that fact. And you are the next generation. If you're faithful and loyal and do your work in your home community, you might be amazed what happens in the next generation."
Yeah. Thank you, John. One of the things that I have been intrigued with is that many times after seminars, there are youth at the back that want to talk. And they're on fire. Something's lit inside them. And many times they come from communities that are very slow with outreach.
Many times they're wrestling even if they should be in that church or not. But they've seen something in community that brought them to this meeting even. And so there's a lot of people who have a passion, a lot of youth who have a passion for the Lord in communities that are not doing a lot of outreach right now. So that doesn't mean that they need to stay there. But we can't quickly dismiss them either.
And maybe I would echo what John said, that change is slow. And often younger people do miss that and miss some of the valid concerns that the older generation would have. And that seems to be happening maybe a bit more nowadays. And so working together and hearing the concerns and then taking time and exercising that commitment will probably be farther ahead in the end.
I mean, I feel I watched an interesting phenomenon in my generation. I've seen these revival groups that leave churches and go out and expend all their energies doing that and basically lose out with their families and their church. And then I've seen other people who stayed and who kept their loyalty to their congregation, won the confidence of their people that they were loyal and they were committed. And they were able to bring change within the group that was far more significant than the change that people made who were out there fussing and constantly criticizing and saying they were more evangelistic and all of those things that they were trying to do.
I just want to call us to loyalty to our churches. And yes, we don't have to give up our zeal and evangelism. But to be disloyal to our churches in doing that, I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
I think we talked earlier about being condescending. And I think there's a side where those of us that have a vision for evangelism can come across as condescending to the rest of the church who maybe isn't as excited as we are about it. And I think that humility and just leading by example rather than trying to imply everybody else is failing, just to look at where I'm failing and what I could do more of, I think is powerful.
Yeah. Fascinating discussion. Any other questions or comments yet before we close this?
You probably have other plans for the day, Gary.
Yeah, I do. Yeah. It's getting late in the day. It's 5:30 here now.
Okay.
Well, if not, just a couple announcements. For those of you who are on this morning, for brothers here, there's an S2S Sisters event happening this afternoon at 3 o'clock, God Grace and Godly Womanhood by Darla Weaver. And so you can share that with your wife or your sisters or something if they are interested in that. Maybe they already know about it.
And then two weeks from now, there is a—we're having another Patriotic Ambassadors event. And that is another talk by Leonard Hagy on Crossing Cultures. So two weeks from now, Saturday morning, 6:00 AM, Crossing Cultures by Leonard Hagy. Looking forward to that.
Any other announcements? I don't think so. I think, Gary, if you would lead us in a closing prayer yet. I'd appreciate that. And thank you so much for coming on and everyone else for joining us this morning. Okay. Let's pray.
Father, we come this morning through the name of Jesus. Lord, just confessing that we've touched on an area here that we struggle in, that we're not always sure which way to go. We have many questions. Lord, we want to reach out. We want to care about our neighbor. And yet we're not always sure how to do that. We want to have strong communities. And we're not always sure how to do that. And so as we part here this morning, would you bless us? Would you guide us? Would you give each of us a stronger desire to follow close to you and a sense of your presence? Bless our communities, Lord. We just confess that we struggle many times in loving each other, in caring about each other, in listening to each other.
And so help us to develop strong communities and help some of these brothers who have difficult questions about how to encourage evangelism in their local community. Give them wisdom. Give them guidance. And just help all of us to have grace for each other and charity and strength in these last days. And we ask this through Jesus' name. Amen.
Amen. And thank you. And God bless your day, everyone. Goodbye. Brother Gary, I really appreciated your presentation. It was concise. It was practical. It was honest. And God bless you. Thank you, John. Lord bless you. Thank you. Goodbye. Thank you.
As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.