“Overcoming Evil God’s Way” by Stephen Russell

The one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him, and a threefold cord is not quickly broken. Good morning and welcome to Strength to Strength. Uh, glad to have all of you with us this morning, and especially you, Stephen. Glad to have you with us. How are you doing this morning? I'm doing well this morning. We just finished summer term yesterday. Uh, it was a really good term. Um, uh, towards the last, uh, last three days, I got a little less sleep than normal, trying to get all the grades in and everything.

Yep. So that's at, uh, Faith Builders in, uh, Guys Mills, Pennsylvania. Yes, it is. All right. And how long have you been, uh, teaching there? Uh, this, uh, this will be starting my 24th year in, uh, in, in August. All right. So you've made that a career. Yes, I love it. All right.

All right. Well, that's great. So, uh, yeah, we're looking forward to a talk this morning from Stephen on, um, on his book. And the topic of the book is Overcoming Evil God's Way. So I think what we'll do here is, uh, we'll begin with a prayer, and then we'll turn the time over to you. All right. So, uh, let's pray.

Father, we thank you for your blessings to us. We thank you for this, uh, time here where we can, um, sharpen each other, where we can learn from each other. And we thank you for, um, what Stephen brings here to the table. We pray that you would, um, bless his life, bless his teaching, and, um, yeah, bless our time here now as, as he speaks. Um, may the technology work well. And, uh, thank you for your goodness to us and allowing us in this time to be ambassadors for you in, uh, in the various ways in which we, uh, have available to us. Pray that you would, um, bless our lives and, uh, may your kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. All right. So we're going to give the time here to, to Stephen. And, um, if you have questions along the way, just, uh, make a note of them or put them in the chat and we will get to those, uh, at the end. So the time is here, Stephen. Go ahead. Okay. Well, um, as, as I think about, um, where the church is today and where the society is today, I see two big needs. And, um, the first one is, what does it mean to be a human? Now, I'm not going to talk about that today, but if you just think about society, we don't, uh, people just are acting as though there is no, uh, reality to what it means to be a human being.

Uh, recently, uh, two of the appointees of the president were questioned in, in Congress, what is a woman? And I think both of the, both of the appointees were women and said they didn't know how to define that. So, um, we're in a, a place of utter confusion as far as what we are. That though, that's, and that's somewhat connected to the second big thing, and that's what I want to talk about today. What does it mean, uh, to live the way God intends us to live? And, uh, the key thought here is love. God expects us, first of all, to love him with everything that we are. And then secondly, to love everyone else as we love ourselves.

And at the heart of non-resistance, that's at the heart of non-resistance. So, um, I wanted to talk a little bit, first of all, how I came to this position, uh, because, um, I think it's really, I, I, my major subject is history. Knowing a little bit about the, uh, person that wrote the history, for instance, is helpful. And so anyway, I was a raised Catholic and, um, and went to Catholic school as a child. Uh, at 17, I went to a, uh, Baptist church and was converted. And, and, uh, it's interesting, God, I think, works with us where we are. And at that point, there were two things that happened in my life. And that was, I knew that God, um, doesn't want Christians to kill.

And this was right at the end of the Vietnam War. In fact, I was at the, I was in the last draft. Uh, my number, my number was low and so I wasn't drafted, but, um, I, I had been a patriotic young man and, uh, and so I wake up the day after, uh, I gave my life to God and I knew Christians don't kill. That now, that's not all of non-resistance, but that's what I knew at that point. And I also knew God wanted me to, or I felt anyway, the urge to be, uh, to serve the Lord in ministry. And I was a young Catholic man. So, um, at first, I, uh, looked into going to, uh, Catholic seminary.

And in fact, uh, I did, uh, for, for a, a while, but, um, I was, I got discouraged, uh, by some of the teaching there and went back home and discussed my situation with some friends, some Christian friends. And, uh, the ones that were the most helpful for me, uh, were my beachy friends. They didn't necessarily give me an answer to some of the questions I had at that point. See, I was struggling with, um, some very important Catholic doctrines like what they believe happens at communion. And it wasn't necessarily that they answered my question as much as we had a really good talk and it was helpful for me to, to think some things through.

And so I actually started going to the beachy church and, um, within a couple of months had joined it, had, uh, joined the church, uh, got baptized and, and, and all. Uh, and as time went on, then my understanding of non-resistance, uh, grew. So it went from simply realizing a person doesn't, uh, not a person, but a Christian doesn't kill, to recognizing that this has a whole lot more meaning. And that's just continued to grow over time.

Um, I have, uh, become a little bit concerned, or I became concerned, uh, once we got into, once the United States got into the wars in the Middle East, I got concerned about what seemed like a laxity among our people as far as understanding non-resistance. Um, and I, yeah, I, I, um, the, the, uh, Sunday after the, the war in, uh, Iraq started, um, some of the young men at church said, "Did you see what our missiles could do?" And that kind of startled me a little bit. Our missiles, well, I know what they meant, but I, I started to realize as I talked to people that not everyone is completely on board. They don't understand.

And I think that my, my guess is that after the United States started to have a volunteer army in 1973, I think that, uh, maybe our, uh, leadership didn't preach about non-resistance as much. And I think a lot of young people hadn't heard it and really didn't, or hadn't heard it much and didn't really know, uh, what it meant. And so, um, that got me started to thinking about, um, well, we know what the Bible says. So I, I came up with a presentation, uh, several evening presentation about the history of non-resistance. And then we had, we, we, um, our country experienced the, the Afghan war. And it seemed to me still that, that we, our people still needed more, um, uh, to hear more about non-resistance.

And so I, I got the opportunity to take a half a year off and write this book on non-resistance. And, um, anyway, uh,

uh, the, um, oh, I just want to say this. There's going to be a revision of the book coming out this summer. Uh, and this is what the cover is supposed to look like. I don't know if you can see that or not. It's not really that important, but that's coming out, uh, this summer. I don't have an exact date. And in the book, I look at non-resistance, uh, biblically and historically. And, uh, so that's what I'd like, uh, to talk about, um, today. But maybe first, um, a little bit more on the fact that it seems that, that we're losing, our own people are losing non-resistance. And there's an irony here because I am finding more openness among Christians who aren't in a Baptist because they see something's not working quite right.

And in their settings, well, maybe it's not working quite right in our setting too. So we, we, uh, have some need here too. But I do think that, um, we often don't understand the two kingdom concept, which the early Anabaptists, uh, saw in the scriptures. And, uh, that became kind of the heart of their, of their approach to, um, their society and to government and the military. So it seems to me we've, we've, uh, don't have as clear a concept of that as we should. And, um, the way I would like, it's the way I would like to, uh, phrase, uh, phrase what is important about what the early church saw and what the Anabaptist saw.

First thing is, how do you form a church? I know that doesn't sound like it's about non-resistance, but it really is. Uh, how do you form a church in most, in every religion, as far as I know, other than Christianity? You are, you become a member through birth. And, uh, Christianity is the only religion that says you must choose to become a Christian. And so, uh, the early church did that. Unfortunately, there came a time when it started going towards, uh, infant baptism and that became the norm. And that changes everything.

The, uh, if you do have a church though, that is formed the right way through the baptism of, uh, people who have decisively chosen to follow the Lord, then there's a certain inherent, um, uh, aspect to what, what life is going to look like for a person like that. And, um, it's, I, I would call that, um, separation to God or holiness. That's just inherent in this kind of a situation. And I would see that holiness as having three aspects, not what we call it non-conformity, non-accumulation, and non-resistance. And so, um, if a church doesn't, uh, have these things, if it, if it doesn't know about, uh, baptism as the decisive choice of an, of an adult, uh, and then the implications of that, then it's going to be hard to really understand or see where non-resistance comes in.

But, uh, and I, as far as I'm not going to talk about non-conformity or, uh, non-accumulation, but non-resistance is, uh, not just we don't go to war, we don't kill people, we don't go to court, we don't take people to court. But the way I like to think about it is non-resistance is actually coming to see what God's vision for the world is.

And we all know what that is. God so loved the world that he sent his only son. And, uh, so non-resistance is actually, uh, getting to know what God's vision for the world is and then get, becoming part of it, cooperating with that. And that's exactly what the Anabaptist did. That vision is about redemption. It's about restoration. It's about, um, healing. And the Anabaptists during the Reformation were the only group that actually were, uh, evangelical, evangelistic.

And, um, and that's, it was because I think because they were, they had this vision that God gave them, uh, they had a non-resistant vision or a vision of love, if that, uh, helps a person to think about it. So one more thing about this, uh, thinking about the two kingdoms and thinking about the inherent aspects of giving your life to the Lord as an adult and specifically about non-resistance, we are ambassadors. You already mentioned that in your prayer. We are ambassadors for God, this other kingdom. And so we tell the kingdom we're not in what the other kingdom expects or, or how it can help and things like that. But we, we're not supposed to get involved in their, uh, way of handling things.

We can, we, we're, we're supposed to talk to them. We're supposed to call them to conversion. Uh, and we can, I think, even give them suggestions about if they, especially if they ask about, uh, issues that come up, uh, for all of us. But we're, that's something that we're not supposed to be directly involved in. We're ambassadors. Our, um, energy goes into telling the world what God's, uh, who God is and what he expects of us. Um, there's, there's another thing that I'd like to mention here. Um, uh, you know, non-resistance is a hard thing.

Now, I know we, we can only do it with God's grace, but, but it, you know, when you think about it, if a person isn't a believer, he'll, he'll probably think this is impossible. Even believers though, uh, are resistant to this whole idea. It's, it's a little bit scary. Um, and we want to control, I think most of us think this way. We want to control our lives as much as possible. And non-resistance or living in love the way God wants us to is really a risk. It's, it's saying we're willing to put our lives into God's hands and do whatever that means. And that's one reason I think that, um, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's being lost by some of our own people and why a lot of other people resist the idea, at least at first.

But there is, if, if I'm correct, that the way a church is formed is through, uh, a decisive, uh, choice by an individual after he's heard the gospel. And then there's something inherent in that. Uh, if we, if we take the time to think about how to talk about this, uh, to others, I think it becomes very, um, appealing and it starts to draw people. Um, there, if they're not in the Lord, I think this opens people up to the possibility of hearing what the gospel is about. It's, it's not the, um, it's not the, uh, aggressive, um, political, uh, action that's happening a lot among Christians today. And, uh, non-Christians are seeing this and are being turned off by this.

Anyway, um, I think another, another reason that, uh, we're, we're perhaps, um, not as strong in the concept of non-resistance as we could be or should be. Uh, we have, um, looked a lot to American evangelicalism as far as the things we read. And I, uh, you know, I'm not saying evangelicals aren't Christians or anything like that, but, um, they, they seldom or if ever have a concept that, uh, Christians are supposed to, uh, approach people with, uh, sacrificial love. Um, and so as we read more of their books, uh, we, um, become, we, we perhaps, uh, replace what is foundational in Anabaptism. And by Anabaptism, I simply mean Christianity as understood both by the early church and the Anabaptist and, and, uh, not, not something that's, uh, just, uh, something we made up, but rather that was rediscovered by the Anabaptist, not made up by us, but rediscovered.

So it's sort of shorthand for actually what's biblical, biblical Christianity. But, uh, I think we've sometimes, uh, read so much of, uh, the American evangelical, uh, books that we, we're kind of losing our own foundation, which I would say is much more solidly biblical. And, uh, anyway, so, um, uh, looking at my notes a little bit.

Oh, and as I want to say, I want to say one more thing that I found very interesting of, uh, some friends of mine, a couple of friends of mine, uh, many years back, soon after, uh, President Carter, uh, ceased to be president, went to his church and, uh, sat in his Sunday school and afterwards had a chance to talk with him a little bit. And, uh, there were two very interesting things that, uh, came out of, uh, this, uh, this opportunity to talk to the president. And one of them was that he, uh, said one thing he was very proud of as president was that his administration had not assassinated any world leaders. And by that, I mean either, uh, leaders of government or leaders of, um, some, some kind of, uh, group like, um, ISIS or, um, Al-Qaeda.

And, um, basically every president before him and every president after him has done that. And that was something he was proud of. He also said that he had, that his administration had done that. Uh, he also said that he, he has come to see that you really can't be a Christian and the president at the same time. Now, I didn't hear what he said. Um, I don't think he was saying he wasn't a Christian. I think he was saying he now has a, has had a chance to stand back and it, and he sees that, um, this doesn't, these two things really don't work well together. And he, and he recognized that, that, uh, my friends were Mennonite.

And that's why he, uh, talked to them about this, I think. But, you know, I wish that, uh, he would make this more commonly known that really, uh, the, the government isn't really a place for the Christian. It, the, the, the kinds of things that you need to do and the kinds of skills you need to have don't fit, don't fit this, uh, the two kingdoms don't fit in that particular, uh, case.

So anyway, now I'd like to, um, think about the present time, our, uh, I think in our circles, there, there is a kind of a rockiness to our understanding of, um, non-resistance. And it seems to me that, uh, as we've absorbed more of the American spirit, I think direct, uh, indirectly through, uh, evangelicalism, that mindset has, uh, overtaken or, um, undermined, uh, the biblical mindset. And we see it in the fact that so many of our people are being, uh, drawn into politics, uh, nowadays. And this is something that the American Ana, uh, American evangelicals have been doing for quite a while. And now we're getting, uh, drawn into that. Uh, and I can understand it.

Um, I, when I was, uh, first a Christian, uh, and still a Catholic, I, um, voted and I was motivated by the, um, anti-abortion, uh, movement. Uh, you know, that's that right when I became a, well, soon after I became a Christian, uh, Roe v. Wade came into effect. And so I was very motivated by that. But I also came to see, um, both through, uh, reading the scriptures, reading, uh, some Anabaptist writings on non-resistance, and also by the experience of talking to people on the other side and recognizing that they saw me and the other people who are, um, politically working against, uh, uh, abortion, uh, and, and identifying as Christians, they saw us as trying to impose Christian morality on them.

And that only, that not only turned them off towards us, but it also turned them off against, uh, Jesus. It was like building a wall between them and Jesus. What they saw was these are the Christians trying to impose their morality on me, not trying to win them to the Lord, but rather to impose our, um, our morality on them.

And so, uh, I, I really have come to regret that. I, I feel that that was a huge mistake in my life. And I'm trying to help our people see that this isn't the way to go. But right now we see people being drawn both directions and to the right and to the left. And, um, like I said, I can understand that. Uh, I, I know what that feels like. You want to do something, but unfortunately the political route is not, well, I don't mean, unfortunately the political route is not the way. Uh, politics is, um, always imposed on people or the, or, uh, in politics, whatever's going to be done is imposed on people.

Christianity is about calling people to follow the Lord. And, um, it's not meant to be, uh, imposed. And, and, uh, so anyway, um, let's see.

Anyway, we do, we need to recapture the, the vision we Anabaptists do. And, and I think we're at a, at a moment when people are willing to listen. Let me talk a little bit about, uh, the biblical aspect of non-resistance and a little bit about, uh, the historical aspect, and then a little bit about how I see the situation today. You know, the Old Testament is often seen as not being non-resistant. I personally believe that God works with people where they are. That's what he did with me. Um, not everybody, when they give their life to the Lord right away, realizes they want, uh, that they should, uh, be non-resistance. It, it, it does, it depends on the person.

And for me, this was where God needed to work. And also the thing about the, uh, serving him as a, uh, I, I thought I wanted to be a Catholic priest. And then I, I realized later that I'm already a priest. So that was, uh, so I was already, um, doing that part or learning how to do that part better. But you know, the Old Testament is about God giving us the freedom to choose to love him and worship him. And we didn't do that. And the first couple of chapters of Genesis show us how we just became worse and worse. And God then gave us a new start by wiping out the world except for Noah and his family.

But even then there's still the corruption in the human heart. And God, that is, it's right after the fall in chapter nine of Genesis where God instituted government to restrain us, to keep us from plunging back into the depths of depravity that we did just before the flood. So, um, the Old Testament, a lot of it is about restraining, uh, that, that impulse downward towards, uh, becoming worse and worse. And, um, God also gave us, uh, or gave a certain people, uh, the Jewish people, the law and the covenant to shape them, to, to make them the kind of people to whom the Messiah could come. And this was a long, rough journey. I mean, everybody, all of us know the Old Testament and he, his people kept rebelling against him, kept, uh, falling away, then coming back.

But, uh, eventually after, um, about, uh, from, I'm thinking about from, uh, Abraham's time till, um, the kind of time of Jesus. Uh, so there, there's something like, uh, 18,000 years that God works with us to bring us to that point where the Messiah can come. The Old Testament has a lot of, um, uh, hints and clues and sometimes outright statements about what God, God's heart really is. So God works with these people where they are. And he even, you know, lets them sometimes do things that aren't his real heart, but he's getting them to the place where the Messiah can come and tell them actually what, uh, what, what God really wants from his people.

Uh, in the New Testament, the Messiah comes, uh, he's really different than what the Jewish people expected. His own disciples don't fully understand what's going on until after the resurrection and the ascension and Pentecost. Um, but here it's in the New Testament, the two kingdoms are clearly talked about. There's several places where it talks about, we, um, in Colossians, it talks about being transformed, uh, translated from, uh, the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of his dear son. And, uh, there are many places where it makes that whole thing very clear that there are two kingdoms and they don't overlap. And if you try to make them overlap, you have problems. Um, so, uh, one other thing that, another thing that we learn in the New Testament is we do have a fight, you know, um, we men want to do something and, uh, we want to, uh, do something that's hard.

And literally we do have a fight, but it's not the fight that the other kingdom looks at. It is, uh, it is, um, first of all, an inward struggle to, um, let God's spirit and his grace work in us as we hear what God has done for us, as we hear that he's calling us to this non-resistant, uh, vision. Um, there's a struggle. Uh, we, we have to let God work in us. We have spiritual strongholds in us that through the spirit can be overturned and we can become more and more and more like Christ. And so the first, the first, uh, struggle or fight for us is an inward one. And then it's an outward one as well, uh, helping our own brothers and sisters, uh, understand what God is calling us to.

And then, um, I think making clear to the unbeliever what it is God is calling us to, because everyone, every human being in the world wants the things that God wants to give us. He's put that in us. The problem is in the world, they, um, seek the fulfillment of those desires God's given us in the wrong place.

And if we can help them see not just non-resistance, but this whole plan that God has for us and how it's for our good, that wakes, awakens something in people. So I think secondly, um, helping brothers and sisters to grow in non-resistance and helping the world to recognize that Christianity isn't just simply a set of laws. These are the rules you have to do, but rather it's God calling us to a life that is, um, that is full. Uh, Jesus said he came to give us life and life abundant. And, uh, uh, we, we need to try to, uh, see ways to express that to others. Uh, I think that will draw them. And I think non-resistance, especially in a violent world that we live in, uh, will at least open people up.

It'll spark their curiosity, but I think it will draw them to the prince of peace. And, um, so anyway, and then one last thing as far as the New Testament, sometimes, uh, I already talked about how the, the church is a group of people. It's a body. It's the body of Christ who have chosen to follow him and become part of this. And inherent in that is a certain lifestyle of, of holiness or separation unto God. Unfortunately, sometimes somebody within the church, uh, falls away. And, um, one of the things the Anabaptists emphasized is the other Christians in Europe, when, uh, when there needed to be discipline, they used the government and sometimes they used it to execute people.

The Anabaptists made a very clear statement that there is a time when discipline needs to happen, but it's only excommunication. And that's always for the good of the person to bring him back. Uh, if a person was, is executed for being a heretic, there's no way that he can come back. And so, um, that's something the Anabaptists emphasized. And maybe it's also another place where at least some of our churches are, uh, becoming more like the society around us and not willing to, um, use this as a tool God has given the church. And sometimes we're not willing to use all of the tools God's given us. I wanna switch now to think about church history a little bit.

And, um, all these things are, are dealt with in the book in more thorough detail. But, uh, in the early church, uh, like I said, they understood, uh, that this is, this is something different than any other religion. It, it is something where you hear the gospel message, you recognize your own need and you choose to follow the Lord. And then that's going to have this, uh, inherent, um, uh, call on our lives, namely that we live holy lives. And part of that would be that we live a life of love, of sacrificial love, or of, um, or of, uh, uh, non-resistance. And the interesting thing is we have a significant number of writings and inscriptions by the Christians in the first 300 years of the church's history.

And they are clearly non-resistant. These people were willing to lay their lives down. Um, Tertullian, uh, who was, uh, who did a lot of writing for the church, um, said very clearly, uh, he was, he was, uh, addressing the empire, I think the emperor in, uh, directly, uh, and he said, you know, we're, we're everywhere. We're in the marketplace where we, we're everywhere in the, in the empire, we're in the cities, we're in the country. And, um, we could rise up against you if we chose, but that's part of what it means to be a Christian that we, though you persecute us, we don't rise up against you.

So that's just one mention. The church was very, very consistently non-resistant all the way through. Constantine came along, um, he became the emperor of a united Roman Empire in 324, and he began to favor the church. And, uh, you know, he ended the last persecution and it was the worst persecution. How would you feel if you had been living then?

And, um, all of a sudden, uh, you didn't have to worry anymore about if people find out I'm a believer, uh, because I, I might lose my life or at the very least be persecuted. Um, all of that changed, uh, rather quickly. And you know, I, I think we need to think about one thing, uh, a historian wants people to think is, so what would it have been like for me if I were there? Sometimes we look at people in the past and say, oh, that was not a wise choice. Well, they don't have as much, um, information as we do. And so we, I think we need to think about what would we have done back then if we had experienced that intense persecution.

Then, uh, Constantine comes along, ends the persecution and begins to favor the church. He doesn't make the church, uh, the state religion. That happens about, hmm, that happens about, uh, 60 years after, uh, he, he becomes ruler of the United Empire. But he does, uh, he does start that, that attempt to bring together those two kingdoms to get them to overlap. And so this is where I would say that the problem starts. The Christians start to compromise. And, and I don't think they always recognized what they were, I don't think they recognized what they were doing. They didn't have the past to look at. They did have the scriptures, but you know, God, uh, the scriptures tell us God uses governments.

And, and, um, so they, they were, um, they were, uh, open to this, to, to, um, the kind of, of, uh, favor that Constantine gave them. But it was, it, it led to compromise. And eventually it led to, um, the church and state completely working hand in hand. And when that happens, you, it corrupts both sides. The church, uh, obviously isn't supposed to be involved in government or the military. And the government, um, maybe you could make an argument that, uh, in some ways there were some improvements, but it also, um, it just, it got, it got derailed from what the God-given, um, uh, tasks for the government were. And so I think both sides got, um, badly affected by this, this overlap and eventual kind of bringing together of the, of the church and the state.

In the Middle Ages, um, it had been very clear in the, in the original, in the early church that we don't go to war. In the Middle Ages, uh, Augustine came up with the just war theory in order to, uh, help Christians see that there is a, is a kind of war, they, a real war that they can, uh, participate in. So he gave the just war theory. Over time, infant baptism starts to replace, uh, baptism of people that, uh, choose to follow the Lord. And that's going to cause, uh, immense problems because, um, well, you're, you were supposed to baptize someone after they've chosen to follow the Lord. And, and, uh, that's, that, that actually died out by, by 1100.

Uh, we know pretty well that from that point on, um, infant baptism was practiced, uh, throughout, um, Europe, which is where, uh, Christian, Christianity at that point was, uh, found. Um, eventually that just war theory became the Crusades, which is a holy war, not just just war says you defend yourself.

Uh, Crusades or holy war say that God honors a person for fighting his war in this world. And, um, so, uh, church, the church was interfering with the state, the state was interfering with the church, and it led to immense corruption, which eventually brought on the Reformation. And so the Reformation, um, there were a lot of good changes that the Protestants came up with, but they kept infant baptism and they kept the union of church and state. And, uh, so in some ways, um, they, they, they shifted away from the corruption that had developed in the Catholic church, but they kept out of fear. They kept a couple of things that did not fit with the early church.

The Anabaptists rediscover this. Uh, um, they, they, they hear the call to proclaim the gospel so that a person can see what his own state is and his need and God's solution for that. And then to form a church of, of dedicated believers willing to, uh, disciple each other and willing to lay down their lives rather than to pick up the sword and defend themselves. So, um, that, that, uh, laying down of the distinctives that the early church had led to, um, gradually more and more bad things within the church. And so we get the Reformation.

Um, and so, uh, the interesting thing is the Reform, the reformers, uh, felt that, um, that what the Anabaptists rediscovered and were proclaiming was too far. It would, it would rip society apart. They were used to a society where the church and state were intimately intertwined. What would happen if we tried to take that apart? It'll rip the society's fabric. And so they were afraid to do that. But what would we, once again, what would we have done in that situation? Well, some people took the tr path of truth and many of them died because of that. So, um, but they did also have that long history where we, we saw the early church and then we saw this gradual compromising and corruption.

So they had something to operate on more than just, uh, what they were experiencing at the moment. And so, uh, we living 2000 years after Christ, we have a whole lot more of that. And we should be able to decisively understand the call to the church and with God's grace, live it. So, um, I'm just so excited about what the Anabaptists rediscovered and their willingness to die for it today. Um, what's the condition of the church? Well, we are living in a time of great temptation. I'm not saying that others weren't, but, um, we live in a, in a society that emphasizes freedom. It emphasizes participating in the political process. That is a huge temptation.

Um, you know, it was exactly the devil's temptation to Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount. Uh, he, the devil said, the devil offered him things to short circuit what God had, uh, what, what God wanted to do through Christ. Um, you know, if you were to fall down and worship me, um, I'll give you these kingdoms. Well, um, that I think is exactly, uh, the temptation that Christians face in today's world. It's not a world like the, uh, let's, well, let's go back to the, um, Reformation. It's not the 16th century world where the government didn't care what you thought. Uh, we have elections, we have polling. Uh, the government, uh, at the very least wants to make you think that it's doing what you want it to do.

And so there's this great temptation for us to jump ahead and actually, um, take a shortcut and go through the government and bring all these good things into being. Um, but it, it, it doesn't, it's not just a shortcut. Well, it's not a shortcut. It doesn't really get us to the place we wanna be, but it does short circuit what it means to be a Christian. Taking this shortcut, um, is a short, is a, um, short circuit in, in us as far as it makes us not work the right way. Uh, if we take that, that, uh, temptation, if we take the route of that temptation, um, what we need to recover is, um, commitment, commitment that is willing to stand clearly in opposition to what the Lord says, uh, to what the world says.

Um, and it really speaks to the, to the world when we do that. If you remember back in 2006, um, a, a man in Lancaster killed some, some Amish girls at a school. And, um, and, uh, the way that both the girls responded and the way the, the Amish community responded, um, just shook up people and made them stop and ask what is going on. This is not normal. The forgiveness that was given, um, the Amish, uh, were the, were, uh, the man who killed himself. And at his funeral, I think there were more Amish people than anybody else. And they told the man's wife, um, please stay here in the community. We think it will be a way for us and for you to be healed quicker by staying.

That's, that's just not normal. That, that is a real attempt to live out whatever, whatever non-resistance means. Uh, it's not just our people though. In South Carolina, at Charleston in a black church, um, a white, uh, racist came in and to a Bible study one evening and eventually killed, uh, a number of the people. And he was put on trial. And, um, after the trial, uh, the people that were affected, who had lost, uh, family, um, spoke to him and they, they said, you know, we want your best. We, we, we don't wanna hate you. Uh, we want your best. So it's not just Anabaptists that get this, but, um, it, it's something the church in, in the, in the whole world needs to rediscover the way the Anabaptists did, uh, rediscovered it in the, um, uh, 16th century.

Um,

I think, I think I, I think I wanna, um, just wrap it up with, uh, a little bit of a thought about, so what could we do? What, what are we supposed to be doing in, in this world? Uh, first of all, um, thinking about our own people, we need to rediscover it ourselves, I think, and dig into what is it that God is asking, uh, or actually telling us, this is what you are to do. You're to be like Christ. And, um, a key factor is this non-resistance. It's where, it's where, um, our kingdom, I think, rubs up in a, in a kind of a, in a way of friction with the other kingdom.

Uh, we can't, we can't support you in killing, uh, or harming, but we can support you in other ways. And we actually want you to come over into this kingdom. So we need to relearn that. Uh, we need to, um, learn to love the, um, the other the way we love ourselves. And if, and maybe we can only do that. Well, I think maybe we, yeah, we can only do that if we love God first of all. I think there's a big opportunity right now. I've been, um, talking to friends who are not Anabaptists and they're recognizing that, um, somehow their tradition has, has gotten off the rail in some areas.

And, uh, and some of them are, are find what we believe appealing, but it's still, like I said earlier, scary. How can this work? Um, well, I had somebody say once, that's a good idea if it would just work. Um, we aren't called to, uh, success. We're called to faithfulness. God will bring the, bring the success. Uh, and, and sometimes, uh, in the past, it has meant martyrdom. That doesn't mean failure. Um, it's, it's not something that, that we American Christians who live in, in ease, um, like to think about. But, uh, God can give us the strength. And in our setting, we're, we're gonna have to face other things than martyrdom, at least right now.

And God will give us the strength to do that. Uh, people might ostracize us, turn away from us, or they might even challenge us. Can, you know, would you, if I hit you, would you actually, uh, not strike back? Um, and so anyway, we have an opportunity, I would say, to, um, make the gospel, to make it help, to, to, the gospel shines. But if people see the non-resistant attitude in us and practice in us, it'll shine in a way that pagan eyes can see. And that's what we need. So I think, um, I'll stop there and open it up for questions or, or, or response, uh, whatever you want.

All right. Very well. Thank you, Stephen. So yeah, I've got a few questions here for you and, uh, we're gonna open it up to the audience. So any of you can, uh, share your questions as well. Yeah. So, um, just wondering, uh, what your perspective is of not only the time in which we live, uh, now, but in the Old Testament, because oftentimes, uh, people will refer to, to that and even, you know, the perplexities of how, how much the other direction that was, particularly with the Canaanite conquest and so on. Any, any thoughts on that? Well, I have a couple of thoughts. One of them is, as I said earlier, God works with people where they are.

And so God actually let, this isn't directly the Canaanite question, but God, um, God didn't really want to give the Jewish people a king, at least not at the time they wanted it, but sometimes he would do things like that. God didn't want his people divorcing, but sometimes he allowed that. But even there, the old, uh, the Old Testament says, I hate divorce.

And what that, a lot of these things were restraints to hold back the people. Um, I would say that often when a subject comes up in the Bible, the first time it comes up, we see God's heart. Um, I, I won't go into a whole lot of detail here, but I find it intriguing that the first time that somebody commits a sin that cannot be, um, uh, dealt with personally, I can't say, I'm sorry, I offended you. I can't say, I'm sorry, I told you this lie.

Um, was the murder of Abel. And notice what God does. God, first of all, warned Cain that sin is at his door, but he can overcome it. And then when Cain killed his brother, God doesn't call for an execution. God protects Cain. And there can only be one reason. And that's so that Cain can come back. So Cain can repent. There we see God's heart. Now, the human heart is so corrupted that God gave the people government and, um, and the law to both to show them their own corruption, but also to, to try and restrain, uh, what we would normally do, um, if we just weren't given, uh, the restraint of government or the restraint of the law.

And, uh, so God works very slowly and carefully with us to bring us to that place where the Messiah can come. Uh, and, and you, you can see, uh, I, I like, uh, Galatians 4:4, where it talks about at the right time that God sent his son. Well, anyway, so it took a while to get the people there where they could actually hear more clearly what was, what God, uh, was doing in Jesus.

Uh, government has the responsibility of, um, uh, using the sword. And at least during part of the, um, Old Testament, God allowed his people to be part of the government. He makes it clear in the New Testament that these are two different spheres and that we are really, um, a really good place to read about this is Romans 12 and 13, that we are to do these certain things and they all show love. And in the first couple of verses of 13, they, the government, do these things, including bear the sword. In the Old Testament, for a while, sometimes God's people bore the sword and the Canaanites had become so corrupt that God, um, used one people to, um, to punish the, the other people.

And in this case, the Jew, the, um, Hebrews to punish the Canaanites. But, um, this is once again, this isn't God's heart. His heart is for God's, his own people to be withdrawn from that. And it's very clear in the New Testament. And the, the, the Anabaptists had a very interesting take on this. They talked about the order of the Father, which is the Old Testament, and, and sometimes God's people bore the sword. But then they talk about the order of the Son, which comes after he, after Jesus came to the earth. And they make it very clear that God has made, has taken the sword from Christians. We, we are not to bear the sword.