Which Lenses Do You Use? Mike Black Part #1

Guide me on the great Jehovah, pilgrim through this barren land. Hello, and welcome to Hope for Wandering Amish. We're so glad you're with us here. We have a special guest on with us, Mike Black from Chambersburg, Pennsylvania. I've introduced Mike as a brother that that is a reader, thinker, inspirational storyteller, but most importantly, he's a brother in the Lord, and his his love for the Lord, his joy in the Lord is, and it makes him a joy to be around.

So, Brother Mike, are you ready to do your talk? I sure am. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, so why don't we have a prayer, then the time will be yours. Father, we thank you for Brother Mike. Thank you for this opportunity to meet here on this platform. And Father, we pray that this talk could be inspirational, that it could draw people to you, that it could be used to build your kingdom and to glorify your name. Bless our time here this this morning in the precious name of Jesus. Amen.

All right. Well, good morning, Elam and everyone out there. It's it's good to be on. I appreciate the invite. And so I'm going to be speaking about that. He gave the topic as check the prescription. But before I get really into the meat of that or anything else, I I reckon I ought to introduce myself, being that this is my first time on. And also that the the fact that I'm obviously not Amish. And I think about the only thing about me that is Amish right now is some beard oil that my brother gave me, which is honest Amish beard oil. I hope it's actually supporting Amish. But anyway, but I would like to tell you about some some Amish folks that I know.

One is by the name of Aaron Gingrich, and he grew up in North Dakota and married another Amish girl, Maddie Bontrager. And they started a family out there and had a young boy. They had a boy named Reuben Gingrich.

And they were Amish until Reuben was about seven or eight years old, and then they changed to conservative Mennonite. And then there was, and on a neighboring farm, there was another old order Amish man by the name of Nathaniel Graber, who had at some point left the Amish and become changed to conservative Mennonite and married the conservative Mennonite, Mary Slabaugh.

And they had a daughter together named Arla Graber. Well, these two, Reuben and Arla, lived on neighboring farms up in Milo, North Dakota, where they grew up. And so their families got to know one another. And as things would be, they one day fell in love and got married, and and they had a girl, Brenda Gingrich. Well, they they Reuben had left the old order Amish at the age of eight and changed to conservative Mennonite. But when they married, they actually raised their daughter, Brenda, in the Mennonite USA Church. I'm not sure if it was called Mennonite USA during that time, but just the mainline Mennonite.

Now, that would be my mom, Brenda Gingrich. So my mom was brought up mainline Mennonite, and she eventually went to EMC, or that's what it was called at the time, Eastern Mennonite College in Harrisonburg, Virginia. It's now Eastern Mennonite University. And there she met a Protestant boy by the name of Carl Black. And that was my dad.

And so they left college to get married and start a family. And that's where I come in. I'm the was their firstborn. And I was raised grace brother. And now I know sometimes when you think of brethren or something like that, you might get some kind of Anabaptist type thought in your mind, but it was more along the lines of Baptist. It was pretty conservative and and strict in some senses. I mean, the the men wore their suit and ties, or at least their ties to church, and women typically wore dresses, but there weren't anything like head coverings. And also, I mean, they did a good job trying to keep me from the world. I wasn't allowed to watch sitcoms on TV, although we did have a TV.

And I wasn't allowed to watch PG-13 movies or anything like that, although we would watch movies occasionally. So there were some good things about my upbringing. And as I will be talking more and more about some of the things, the issues that I found and started to have problems with in the evangelical world, I do want to say at the outset that I really do appreciate my parents. And by and I believe that they were truly trying to do the best and give me the best upbringing that they could. And I do believe that many out there in the evangelical world are sincere in trying to follow what they believe is true. And so although there would be maybe some people out there trying to mislead people for money's sake or something like that, by and large, I do believe most people out there are being true to their beliefs.

Although, as we'll see later, we'll talk about the idea that beliefs do have consequences. And so also on our way to church every Sunday morning, I remember passing by a a Catholic church that kind of set there on a a bit of a hill. And I remember thinking the only thing I really knew about the Catholics is what is that they would say they would rather read their newspapers than the Bible. That was just my only idea of Catholics. And so why do I even bring them up? Well, that's because me and my friend from this grace brother in church, after college days, we started hanging out. And well, lo and behold, he started to date this Catholic girl.

And she happened to have a younger sister. And so as as it would be, we ended up marrying sisters. But we had a a non-Catholic marriage. And but I will say, though, that my in-laws are very gracious. My father-in-law was raised Catholic, but my mother-in-law was raised Protestant. But they decided to raise their children Catholic.

So although our wedding wasn't Catholic, we had to decide I had a decision to make, like, how are we going to raise and start our family? And so I was convinced that the evangelical way represented the truth. I I was under the belief that, like, the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s, I mean, that was getting right back to solid biblical truth. And so we started our family in the evangelical world, and we started to attend what was trying to be a mega church. And it was more like a rock concert at the beginning of each service instead of a praise and worship time. But where I was raised, I was used to just a piano and an organ and hymns being sung.

So it was a little bit different than how I grew up initially, but that's what we thought. That's that's where the spirit was. And so, but as I was going throughout my adult life, when I would read things in the Bible, I would read stuff like the Sermon on the Mount, and then only to have it explained away by preachers and, you know, things I would listen to on Christian radio as, oh, that's just for some other time, or it's just to show us that we really can't do it, or or it's for a future age. And so everything in here and, like, the head covering, Paul says absolutely nothing about Corinthian custom. He cites headship order and and even nature.

But I was just it was everything explained away. So I figured, man, what's the use? And so I kind of went back to some of my worldly ways that I had found after high school when I went off to college. I didn't go quite as crazy back into the world as I had during those years, but just by and large, we stopped going to church every Sunday. And but we started a family, and we eventually had a daughter, oldest named Naomi, and then we had one more named Isabel.

And I started thinking about my upbringing. And although I had started to doubt some of the things that were taught me from early on, which was that once you're saved, you can never be lost, I started to kind of wonder, well, what if that's not true? Because it seems to indicate in the Bible that you can lose it. I started to question things. And although I was, I don't know, after seeing all the hypocrisy in the church and everything being explained away, I wanted to throw it all away. I at least appreciated that my parents tried to give me a good Christian upbringing. And I wanted to do the same thing.

So I started searching for truth. And it's written in Hebrews that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. And so I think that was a key, just the fact that I went on this search and I wanted truth, and I didn't really care where it led. And I even remember saying to myself, you might find it funny given the talk that I'm on, but at one point I said, I don't even care, even if it leads to the Amish. If that's where the truth is, that's where I want to be. And I literally had those thoughts. So it is kind of interesting being here this morning. But it started out by me watching these documentaries on the Reformation and how we got the King James Bible and all that.

And through that interest, YouTube and its algorithm, however that magical process works, threw a video my way called, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? And that's a video that Elliot Nash made about based on one of David Brousseau's books. And it was about the early Christians. And I had an aha moment during that because basically what I realized is what they believed is in accord with a straightforward reading of the scriptures. You can take the New Testament, read it. If you take a pretty literal approach to it, you're going to arrive at what they believed. And that was like a breath of fresh air.

So whereas I had been trying to find the perfect fundamentalist independent Baptist church, I now started to wonder, is there anything out there nowadays that's like it was in the beginning? And so a couple months later, I realized on YouTube, you can click a little arrow on the bottom, or it was an arrow at that time that set that had the description. And that took me to a scroll publishing link with all these what the early Christians believe about salvation and baptism and all these great things. And I was hungry. I wanted that. And so that's how my journey eventually led me to Chambersburg Christian Fellowship, which is how I've come in contact with Elam here.

And so whereas that family story I kind of told you about before, where my mom's great grandparents, every single one of them, you look at all eight were old order Amish. Then the next generation, all of them were old order Amish, except one, the Mary Slabaugh. And then it went to conservative Mennonite and then mainline Mennonite to the point where I was raised evangelical. So it's like I started to head back in the other direction, but not necessarily seeking out the Anabaptist, though, really just seeking out that historic faith. And and found that pretty one of the closest things out there nowadays is the Anabaptist. And so I like what Ephraim talked about last week when he said one that one of his points was, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And I really love that because it just it's so true. There are many good things that the Anabaptists have preserved that the reformers have lost. And so even though they sprung out of about the same time period, they've they've kept the the modest dress, the head covering, community, brotherhood, great things like that. So I I appreciate what he said there.

And so we're going to start talking about here. My talk was going to be about check your prescription. So I got my nice little reading glasses here as a prop for today. But why does it matter? Well, first off, let me just try these glasses on. And I'm going to read a few scriptures here that I have picked out for you. And we'll we'll see how that affects things.

So we'll start in John chapter 15, where Jesus says, "I in the vine, you are the branches. If he who abides in me and I in him bears much fruit, for without me you can do nothing. If anyone, oh, everyone will always abide in me and never be cast out as a branch. It doesn't have to worry about ever being thrown into the fire and burned." Hallelujah. That's good news. I don't ever have to worry. Let's read some from Romans 11.

All right. You say that branches were broke off that I might be grafted in. Well said. Because of unbelief, they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Therefore, do not fear at all, for even though God did not spare the natural branches, he will certainly spare you because now that the age of the cross is done, you have nothing at all to worry about, and you can never be lost again. So take comfort in that.

In 2 Peter chapter 2, he shores up this doctrine by saying, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they will never be entangled again in them and overcome." And even if they seem to have been entangled and overcome and go back to the world, actually what that means is they were never really saved in the first place.

So don't be fooled, okay? So anyway, you can tell I'm kind of joking and a little bit of, you know, being facetious there, but magically, I would read these same scriptures and automatically, without even thinking about it, the lenses that I had on, which were Protestant, you know, reformed, maybe even slight Calvinist glasses that I had on, would just instantly change things in my mind. And so I read it through that lens. And like I was said earlier, actions do have consequences.

Now, like, why does it matter? Well, sadly, the church out there nowadays is being tossed to and fro by every kind of wind of false doctrine, and the consequences can be eternal. So if my lens is, for example, divorce and remarriage, a lot of times, a lot of people out there, like in that church I grew up in, Grace Brother and Church, there were many couples there who were divorced and remarried. And I even know two of the couples that went to that church were in a Christian band. One was the lead singer, and the other one was the drummer. And here they are genuinely trying to reach the lost in this band, but not realizing that according to Jesus, whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.

And we know from Paul that no adulterer will inherit the kingdom of heaven. So beliefs have consequences. And as a matter of fact, like just as a note, I have been amazed so many times that this exact text here that I'm reading now is the same as it was that I'm growing up. Nothing has changed here. But yet I remember going through the entire New Testament when I first got this historic faith or kingdom Christianity type lens on. I would listen through the Bible or read through it, and I could not believe it was the same New Testament that was in my Bible all along because so many things, so many doctrines just escaped me before somehow.

And that's when I started to really think about this topic of glasses. So some other things are adornment. Well, why not? First off, the apostles command it. He says, "Let not your adornment be outward." And so that's an apostolic command. The early Christians connected it to the book of Enoch, where the fallen angels that came to the sons of the daughters of men taught them things like, you know, how to apply makeup and make jewelry and things like that. So they connected it there. And also modesty, which is one of the great things that this goodly heritage, a guy came to our church and gave a talk about a goodly heritage for the Anabaptists and how they can be proud of their heritage.

And the modest dress is one of those things that the Anabaptists have kept. And why is that so important? Well, according to Jesus, lust will lead to hell. And also, like, I believe kind of Calvinistic ways in my growing up to where certain things that I had issues with, like, say, lust or something else, anger, I felt like I could never have victory in that area. And I and with my belief was, well, hey, God will understand, you know, I'm already saved. Maybe I'll say another sinner's prayer just in case, but I'll be okay. And that was very dangerous because what I came to realize later is that I was actually on the road to hell with some of the ways I was living.

And so, or it could also lead to lone ranger Christianity. I've run into many people who, like me, were disenfranchised with the modern church. Only their solution was, instead of trying to find something better or searching, they decide just to withdraw and have just a themselves and God approach to it. And so, thankfully, the brotherhood and things like that, the community that the Anabaptist church fosters is a really great thing.

So you might say, okay, well, do we even you admit you had glasses on? First off, how do you know you don't have them on still? Like, how do you know what you're believing is the right way to believe?

And that's what we're going to be talking about for the rest of our time this morning. And we're definitely going to get into the meat of it next week. And I've also, when I gave this message, a similar talk to this via a message, some of the comments in response were like, well, you say we might need a certain type of lens, but I think just the Bible is all we need. We just need to go straight to the Bible and get our doctrine from that. The only problem is I don't think anybody can really approach it apart from glasses or some kind of bias from the beginning. And I'm not so certain that you don't need glasses after all.

I just think they need to be the right prescription. And I have a reason why I say that. But anyway, the idea that you can just go by the Bible, I don't believe because everyone says that. All these churches, we believe, pages on their websites, as I was going through during these months searching, everybody thought they were going by the Bible. None of them would have said, oh, well, you know, we'd like to hide this part under the rug. We'd like to leave, pretend that James isn't there. He's an epistle of straw, just like Luther said. No, they would all claim they've been going just by the Bible. And yet there's so many different denominations.

And some people would quote out of context the verse in John where he talks about, you know, the the spirit will guide you into all truth. And that's been taken out of context in churches like like the Catholics who apply that to the church in general. So like the church authority is being guided into all truth. And that's why different traditions change over the years. And Protestants look down on that as, oh, they're adding to scripture. But from their point of view, they're getting more they're being guided by the spirit, or at least their leadership is. Now, where Protestants do that is they apply it directly to themselves and think that if they go into a room and have their God time, that they will arrive at truth via the Holy Spirit.

And yet, obviously, there's so many different denominations, nobody agrees. And if you try to have a conversation with them, or a lot of times when you get back and forth or debate people on things, it just goes from their proof text versus your proof text. It's almost like the Holy Spirit versus himself. And so, obviously, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, and he wouldn't guide you differently than me, you know, as far as relates to truth.

So I said, there's got to be a different answer somewhere. And so I believe that we do need glasses after all. It just needs to be the right prescription. And I think the key to that right prescription is in three different areas. And the first one I'm going to talk about briefly here this morning, but that would be the apostles.

And secondly would be the unified church that they established and the faith that they handed down to the church, that faith that was once for all delivered, that tradition of the apostles that they handed to the church and charged the church to guard very carefully. And they did it against many onslaughts to that. So I'd like to start just by talking about the apostles. We'll lay down a good foundation here first for the rest of the talk. So for anyone that might be kind of like me that likes to dig deep into things and and kind of go under the surface, the Greek word for apostle is apostolos, which is 652 in the Strongs. And it means a delegate or an ambassador or a messenger, like the idea of one set sent forth with orders, and that is under the authority of the sender.

So it conveys with the meaning already the idea of you're being sent with orders, but under the authority of the sender. So it's pointing up higher. And Jesus in Matthew 10:40 said, "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me."

And in John 20:21, it says, "So Jesus said to them again, 'Peace to you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you.'" So what we have here is obviously the Father sent Jesus down to earth for our sakes. He was born of the Virgin and took on real flesh and blood. And he dispersed his apostles. After he rose again, he was with them for 40 days teaching them about the kingdom of God. And then he sent them out to establish the church. So he could have done that, but he chose to send them out and do that work.

And so they had authority because of the one who sent them, who issued that command and sent them forth. And so in the idea that they do give commands, because I always thought of the apostles as just ordinary men, just kind of goofy or whatever, because all we hear about a lot of times growing up was just their faults and their failures and kind of makes them look a little bit like bumbling buffoons sometimes or 12 ordinary men, like that book says. But let me read a verse from 1 Peter 3:2 or 2 Peter 3:2. He says, "Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle, in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior."

So, I mean, right there, it gives you that they gave commands. And the early church, and although I will be quoting from the early Christians today and in the future, the good news is that based on this key or this prescription that I'll give out, even if you were never to hear any other early Christian quotes than the ones I give during these two talks, you'll be just fine. So that's that's the good news. I don't want anybody to be intimidated. Maybe you don't have access to it, or maybe you're listening to this via the the phone link and you don't have internet. That is just fine. Don't worry about that at all. But just to shore up what was delivered in the beginning, Tertullian, who lived at the he was in North Africa at the end of the second century.

So we're going to hear from people all over the known world at that time. He said, "In the Lord's apostles, we possess our authority, for even they did not of themselves choose to introduce anything new, but faithfully delivered to the nations the teaching that they received from Christ. If therefore even an angel from heaven should preach any other gospel than theirs, he would be called accursed by us." So you see that quote from Galatians 1 there. And so they had a very high regard of the apostles.

They rightfully saw them as Holy Spirit-inspired teachers. And I'll read a verse from Paul here that kind of points points this out. 1 Thessalonians 2:13, Paul says this, "For this reason, we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, so it was oral at the beginning, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe."

So when the apostles did actually commit things to writing, their writings were inspired scriptures. So that was the original test of scripture. I know growing up, I had the idea that, well, people had to pour over all these New Testament writings and figure out which ones are our New Testament canon. Like, is this one seen to be inspired by the Holy Spirit? I don't know. Let's think about that.

Yeah, maybe. But this one over here, the Gospel of Thomas, nah. But actually, the original test, so to speak, was by the early church who gave us our New Testament canon. Was it an authentic writing of an apostle or one of their close associates? So the Gospel of Mark, Mark traveled with Peter, and that Gospel had Peter's blessing.

Luke traveled with Paul. We get that. We see that in Acts where part of the way through he changes from they to us. Like, we went here and we went there. And so we know Luke was traveling with Paul, and his Gospel had Paul's stamp of authority or approval, I should say. So that's and that fits greatly into a kingdom mindset because we know that Christ is our ultimate King. One is our teacher. One is our master, the Christ. And so, but he sent forth these men to establish the church. And I think it gave me a higher view of the apostles than I had before. I would think about, oh, for example, doubting Thomas.

Oh, he was just an example of of weakness and all that. But in reality, what we find out from history is he went as far away as what's India nowadays in spreading the Gospel. So they were all obviously except Judas, who was replaced by Matthias. But anyway, the 12 that went out that were sent forth, they they were all faithful, and they delivered the same message no matter where they went. So that's why we have a unified church. And so maybe I'll I'll give a a couple other things just on the apostles before we wrap up here today.

There's a few more quotes I want to get in here. And one is by Irenaeus. So he was in what is now modern-day France. They called it Gaul back then. So, and he was a little earlier in the second century. So the just the idea that no matter where they were at, so North Africa or here in what's modern-day France, they all teach the same thing. And that's because of that same key, that same the apostles.

He said, "It is unlawful to assert that the apostles preached before they possessed perfect knowledge, as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For after our Lord rose from the dead, the apostles were energized with power on high when the Holy Spirit came down upon them. They were completely filled and had perfect knowledge.

They departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of good things sent to us from God." So this next quote, which is back to Tertullian, remember how I said earlier, like certain verses, if you take out of context, can be, you know, kind of lead to some strange ways where you could end up as the Catholic Church changing what the apostles let down all the way to people just thinking they can arrive at truth just in their personal Bible study, which I do highly recommend. But he says, "When the spirit of truth will come, he will lead you into all truth. He thus shows that there was nothing of which they, which would be the apostles, were ignorant, to whom he had promised a future attainment of all truth by the help of the spirit of truth."

So he applied that verse to the apostles. And that's why I think the apostles is the first key. And so I want to read one last verse here this morning. And it's Ephesians 2:19. It says, "Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God. Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself, being the chief cornerstone in whom the whole building being fit together, rose into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together as a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."

So amen. So that that is the first part of the three-part key into getting the right prescription. And that's where I'm going to leave off with today and just open it up to anybody or turn it back over to you, Elam.

And we will definitely go from there next time. All right. Well, thanks very much, Brother Mike. That was really, really good. And just the thought of ideas have consequences. Yeah. I mean, obviously, the ideas we have, the teachings we hold to will affect the way we directly directly affect the way we live. But even to think of it'll affect eternity kind of thing. So if we have this idea of, you know, well, once saved, always saved or covered with, we're like a palomador covered with a white robe or something kind of kind of thing. It doesn't really matter what we do kind of thing. Well, that creates or that gives us the freedom and license to sin.

And then we profess to be Christians. Well, that turns people off and drives people away from from Christians. So you have a lot of people out there saying that Christians are hypocrites and stuff. And there's a very valid argument for that. So again, it's ideas have consequences. I totally totally agree with that. Thank you so much. It was a real blessing.

And yeah, obviously, we had the cake. The icing is to hear from our audience. You should be able to mute yourself at your end. And yeah, if you have a question for Mike or something you'd like to comment on, please bring it on. Yeah, I most definitely appreciated this talk.

I feel like it's really, really important, the things that Brother Mike touched on. I don't even know if I grasp just how important it is. If you look at the millions and millions of people that profess Christianity but are under the sway of bad theology, you know, Brother Mike said ideas have consequences. And I'd add to that bad ideas have victims.

Yeah, just just a few thoughts. I don't know if I have any questions. I think probably the next talk will will answer some of the questions I might have. But I just feel like all of this was was shared very well. I'm going to give you something to think about with the illustration of a jigsaw puzzle. You know, when you put the puzzle together and when you start into it, it might seem like, you know, you could put a wrong piece somewhere. It looks looks really close to right. You can't even really tell the difference. But the more that you have pieces in the wrong place, the more you end up with a bunch of pieces at the end that you don't know where to put.

And same thing with scripture. All of scripture must be given its rightful place and understood in the right way. And then everything will fit together. And you end up with a beautiful picture at the end, a beautiful life, rather, in the in the example of reading the scriptures and having everything in its place. I really like the example of the glasses and how wearing the wrong glasses can taint what you're seeing and mess up what you're seeing.

We got to make sure we have the right glasses. And glasses, the idea is to help you to see clearly the way things are. But the problem is we all tend to think that we're in the middle of the road, right? We all tend to think that we can see things clearly. Everybody else would just see it the way we do. Then everything would be all right.

But our hearts are really deceitful. And that's why when we understand that we all come with our unique set of people around us that have influenced us, a unique set of teachings that we've had and experiences, when we understand that, it should move us to a a more careful reading of scripture and and going deeper to mind the deep things of scripture. And also, very importantly, that we will then realize our need of believers around us. You know, Mike mentioned the one of the bad consequences of of the glasses he used to have on was, or some people at least tend to go off just lone range of Christianity. But when we realize how much we need others to balance ourselves out, then, you know, we'll sense our need of believers and of the church.

And that's very biblical to to realize our need of each other. So yeah, again, I just want to thank you, Brother Mike. Thank you, Elam, for the work you're putting into this. Really, really appreciate it at the top and look forward to the next one.

Yeah, I appreciate your comments. Those are some good insights, too. I like the the jigsaw idea. We'll have to go places with that. But yeah, what you said, though, about needing other people and that we can't do it alone is so true. And that's one of the things, like you said, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That is one huge key among the Anabaptists. And I know that, for example, made a big impact on my father-in-law when we had a flood in our basement some years ago. All these people showed up because by that time, here we are in the Anabaptist church. All these people are showing up to help us take everything out because by that time, we realized we couldn't keep the water on the unfinished side, and it was just starting to wreck stuff.

He's like, "Who are all these people? They're from church." And it's like, well, his experience and many people's experiences, you go to church, you wave at that guy, you might know his name, you might not, but you certainly weren't at his house. And so the idea of being in this community where not only do we help each other, you know, with physical things, but also help to guide each other spiritually. And because I know we all have blind spots, like you say, you you want to think you got the right prescription on, but how do you know? We we definitely need other people to help guide us. And I we just weren't we weren't meant to do it alone.

Church wasn't meant to be just just me and God, although there is a personal aspect. So thank you for bringing that out.

All right. Very good. Is there anyone else?

Yeah, I'm just wondering about the when Nicodemus came to Jesus, he asked about, you know, he told Nicodemus to be born again. And I'm just wondering a little bit about that aspect. I wasn't on the first when you were on there when you started.

I had a little trouble getting in. But I'm just wondering what you would what you would comment on that.

Okay. So just getting started out in the beginning, well, yeah, he did say, you know, you need to be born of water in the Spirit. And of course, if I had my evangelical glasses, well, the water would just be mystified into some kind of spiritual water, not real water. And then, of course, you have the Spirit. So but the early Christian understanding, I know it's say, like, the water is water. That's baptism. You got to be born of water. Because the born-again experience in my upbringing was it was connected to a sinner's prayer, not baptism, like it was in the beginning. And so the idea that, yeah, we do need to be washed for the remission of our sins, but we also need a change in our spirit.

We need to be baptized by the Holy Spirit as well and transform inner so whereas my upbringing would have had the inner part, they changed all the outer stuff into mere symbols. But yet, I mean, you know, they asked Peter, "What must we do to be saved? Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Even the great and mighty Paul arise and wash away your stripes, calling on the name of the Lord." So it's like, yeah, we got to have them both. So I think that's what he's talking about, the Nicodemus. We do need to we need to wash away that birth from Adam and get that new birth from the true Adam. So good question.

Very good. Well, thank you all for your questions and comments. That's like I said, that's the icing on the cake.

And yeah, like Ephraim said, he'll probably have more questions next week. And that's true. I just wanted to lay kind of the foundation for what we'll be talking about to kind of shore up the rest of it. So yeah, it's just kind of getting getting started. This was the cake of the cake for next week. So there will be icing before the icing next week.

Yeah. Thank you very much. Well, you keep saying next week, isn't it? Two weeks? Two weeks. Next time, I should say. Yeah. Thank you. Everybody will be woke up at six o'clock waiting for something next week, and then we'll have them. So yeah, thank you.

Yeah. Well, thank you all for joining, and may God richly bless your day, and we'll see you in two weeks. All right. See you then. Guide me, O the great Jehovah, pilgrim through this barren land.