Let your woman keep silence in the churches (1 Cor 14:34-35) (not for feminists)

Hello, Simon! Thank you for bringing this up. It is a large issue, and not just in the states or wherever you are, but also in the more developing countries as well.

So what I would say about this passage is that Paul was meaning that a woman can not teach in the church service context. Not that she can't say a thing from the moment she enters the church house to the time she exits or even gets home. For example, in our home church, we do not have any woman leaders, and no women would get up to teach. But they can share testimonies during the designated time, and of course, they can fellowship before and after the service.

for me it seems she must remain quiet all the time & can't speak during fellowship either. Wherever Scripture takes us.

How can you fellowship without talking? The early Christians met for a meal and there's no reason to think that women weren't allowed to interact with anyone. Plus I think this kind of thing is up to the local body where the elders have to agree on the application of Scripture. That means that we shouldn't break fellowship with others because of slight variations on how they apply Scripture.

I firmly hold to what Paul has to say about women not being elders or teachers but beyond that there should be some flexibility. Some might want women to come up and share something or to give announcements while others perhaps don't want that. As long as the elders come to an agreement together and are seeking to honor the Lord I think that's fine.

Hi Simon. I think you may be taking this commandment a bit too seriously. I believe the silence was during teaching, if you remember the commandment that women were not allowed to have a position over the man and they were to ask their husbands about teachings at home (outside the church meeting setting). It makes sense. Also, remember that church services were not like they are today. Today there's a specific program.

Meet and greet, announcements, prayer, collection of tithes and offerings, worship (singing), maybe another prayer and then the sermon. It wasn't like this in the early church. The love feast was a meal shared with the congregation. To me it would seem very strict that a woman couldn't talk during the meal and so not what was meant by Paul. Deaconess was a position held by women in the early church but they ministered to women only. Any instructions etc.

could be done after or before the church meeting setting. These are just my thoughts on the matter. I hope it helps.

@slopez66, yes, that would explain my personal position precisely.

That is a very interesting point. The direct context seems to actually be talking about service functions like speaking in tongues and prohesiying etc.

But I suppose that it would have to include that she can't sing during this time either (14:15) if we look at the whole passage and that all verbal utterances of all sorts would be forbidden during teaching time, even asking her husband a question. A weakness for this claim may be that she should to ask him "at home", it is not saying "after the meeting".

But yeah great consideration you made which actually looks like a somewhat possibly reasonable explanation in its context. Thx for sharing

Thank you for the sharing.

Yes it may not be a salvation issue here but still we should honor all God's commands very hardcore and take them with dread and trembling. And the context is for Church functions and there is no proof from what I see here that woman's are allowed in any or these functions, whether praying or singing (14:15), speaking in toungues (15:23) or prohysying (15:25).

And in :35 it says she are to ask her husband "at home". So if Paul permitted woman's to speak or/and ask her husband during the love feast for instance, then why he then limit her to asking her husband "at home" and not during "the love feast" or "before the meeting" or "any moment expect direct the preaching time" etc?

It's hard to follow exactly what you're saying. I think this is such a peripheral issue that we should be preoccupied with more weighty matters. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being exacting in their tithing but neglecting weightier matters, i.e. justice, mercy, and faith (Matthew 23). I'm not accusing you of that but this type of discussion, for me, is headed in that direction.

Perhaps you could show examples from church history where what you're suggesting was implemented.

If so there could be a more substantial discussion to be had.

If you can't find any examples or anyone else who agrees with you then I think all you're left with is an individual opinion and a private interpretation on an issue that, based on my assumption you're neither an elder nor married, you're not actually in a position to affect in any way.

Tertullian "On Baptism" ;

"For hos credible would it seem, the he who has not permitted a woman even to learn with over-boldness, should give a female the power of teaching and of baptizing! "Let them be silent," he says, "and at home consult your own husbands." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35"

Tertullian "on the Veiling of Virgins";

"It is not permitted to a woman to speak in the church; but neither (is it permitted her) to teach, nor to baptize, nor to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say (in any) sacerdotal office."

Cyprian Treatise 12, third Book;

"In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: "Let woman be silent in the church. But if any wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Also to Timothy: "Let a woman learn with silence, in all subjection. But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to be set over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and Adam was not seduced, but the woman was seduced.""

Tertullian's writings seems to be the first ones we have with quotes of this passage.

"From Tertullian to Thomas Aquinas, commentators concluded that women could not even sing or pray audibly among men. Although the Reformers relaxed some of these restrictions, as late as the 1890s certain Presbyterians still forbade women’s singing in the context of church worship. (Grenz 1995:121)"

Please let us not doubt that this is a important matter, being "the Lord's commandment" (14:37).

It's true that they left justice, mercy, and faithfulness which is weightier and put only emphaisis on the external rites, but still these were to be kept according to Jesus; "You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former" (23:23).

Tertullian “On Baptism” ;

“For hos credible would it seem, the he who has not permitted a woman even to learn with over-boldness, should give a female the power of teaching and of baptizing! “Let them be silent,” he says, “and at home consult your own husbands.” 1 Corinthians 14:34-35“

Tertullian “on the Veiling of Virgins”;

“It is not permitted to a woman to speak in the church; but neither (is it permitted her) to teach, nor to baptize, nor to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say (in any) sacerdotal office.”

Cyprian Treatise 12, third Book;

“In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: “Let woman be silent in the church. But if any wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home.” Also to Timothy: “Let a woman learn with silence, in all subjection. But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to be set over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and Adam was not seduced, but the woman was seduced.””

Tertullian’s writings seems to be the first ones we have with quotes of this passage.

Irenaeus meant that woman's could prophesy in the Church based 1 Cor 11, but as has been pointed out previously there is no mention of them being in the Church in that passage.

Does your church practice this?

And I can say that the women in our church are silent in church, except for singing and testimonies. But they aren't always silent in the church house (fellowship before and after the service). And I think that there is a reasonable difference between the two.

No modern church I know of practices it. But it seems to have biblical support to be fair.

Right so a woman shouldn't take "any manly function" as Tertullian says and should "learn with silence" per Paul. I affirm and hold to these teachings. But you wish to expand that to mean that a woman can't talk to anyone at church. She can't open her mouth, can't utter a word. She can't say "Could you pass the salt, please?" at a fellowship meal. She cannot greet anyone at church. She can't inform her husband that she is going to the restroom or getting something from the car.

She can't tell her child to be quiet. She cannot speak at church. That's what you think Paul was teaching?

As for Jesus' words in the passage about practicing the latter, I cannot put this teaching into practice and I don't see how you could either. If you're not an elder or a husband then you have no women/woman to instruct to be silent.

Yes exactly. So for example, here in TZ we sometimes have outdoor services. @Jesusordeath, how many feet away from the place where we were worshipping would be enough to let a woman speak?

It's just why did Paul limit her to asking her husband "at home", and not "after the service" or whatever?

It's sort of like being in an airplane with you child and the bathroom is busy and you're telling your child "you can go to the bathroom at home, son", instead of "you can go to the bathroom as soon as the other person comes out, son". Wouldn't it seem like a logical fallibility if the father meant "as soon as the other person comes out" if his statement was "at home"?

But please, how do you look at this in a honest and conscientious way?

How many feet away are you until you're no longer participating in an everyday social fellowship after you saying goodbye? Does it really depend on an exact feet distance rather than the social pull off?

If a woman has a question she should ask her husband at home. That's fine, I have no problem with it. The husband is the head of the wife so she should recognize his spiritual authority and direct related questions to him at an appropriate time and place. I would understand "speak" as in speak publicly. This would mean that a woman is not to address the corporate body nor interrupt a service to ask a question or add commentary.

The time for women to "keep silent in the churches" would be related to certain specific times like when an elder is addressing the congregation or perhaps at certain points during ceremonial/liturgical aspects of gatherings (Eucharist/baptism etc.). Women therefore would be able to greet each other and interact freely with other members at other moments in the gathering. They would be free to converse and fellowship as well.

Now, we know for a fact that women participated in early Christian assemblies. Women can pray or prophesy at appropriate times (1 Cor. 11). There's no reason to think this doesn't have to do with church gatherings since that is the context of Paul's letter and everything else that surrounds the passage.

Furthermore, we know that women in the early church joined in prayers, the singing of psalms and liturgical responses such as "Amen," "Hallelujah," "The Lord be with you," "Peace to you," "Lord have mercy," and "Thanks to God." Early church historian Everett Ferguson notes, "The people actively participated in the congregational prayers by their responses and acclamations." (Early Christians Speak, Pg. 140)

But you, dear Simon, would have the women cease in their prayers, not open their mouths for the "Amen" and neglect the "Hallelujah." You would have them sing no Psalms of praise and refrain from offering their thanksgiving to the Heavenly Father. No longer could they beseech the Father for mercy or be permitted to greet their brothers or sisters in Christ.

I think your interpretation that women be absolutely silent every moment they are "at church" to be as zealously misguided and potentially destructive as early Jewish converts who insisted that Gentile converts be circumcised.

About a hundred feet :). No, just kidding. But I do have point; I do not think that it really matters how many feet away you are from the congregating place- I think that it only matters when the service is actually going.