Music

I understand and agree with your point that it is dangerous. I know that this life in Christ is a precise way and that it can be easy to walk out of the Spirit of God and not even know it with the slightest wrong move or frame of thinking. I do agree with that point of the danger of what it can lead to. I just don't believe that it is impossible for a believer to create God honoring music out of it and do it from the right motive and Spirit.

I believe there are a few that do and it reaches people in that culture and helps people come to salvation which is God's current mission with mankind so I believe God would work with believers in it to glorify Himself through it and use it for that purpose.

After salvation if a believer should continue to listen to it, if they find a godly rap source, I myself can say in my own life that I do abstain from it to a large degree because of the danger you mentioned and I recognize the fleshly tone and pull it has in Christian rap.

We can listen to music, even music glorifying God merely for ourselves because it sounds good to our flesh rather than listen to it for the honor of God to worship Him through it or to meditate on Him through it and I do know that rap music can easily bring you into the flesh in that way. I understand your point of saying why listen to a dangerous source when you could listen to a safe and clearly godly source?

And that is a reasonable point and it is a point that I myself practice since I do stay away from rap myself for that reason. I haven't found a Christian rap artist that consistently follows what I believe to be the Spirit of God in peace and grace in all of their music that doesn't ever fall into the prideful, haughty, self promoting and rambunctious spirit that is consistent in rap culture.

I have found songs here and there that I see to be good but not one artist that I have found to be consistent in the right Spirit. I believe there are few godly songs that believers have made out of it and perhapse few truly godly artists that make consistently pure music out of it although I have not found such a thing yet.

I agree that the matter doesn't inherently withhold people from the kingdom but it is dangerous and that the music and culture absolutely could withhold people from the kingdom if mishandled and lead into sin which is likely to happen if people aren't careful. Neither of you guys have brought up this point but it is certainly a relevant point to think about. I look deeply at both sides of arguments desiring to come to full and accurate truth on matters.

One point is rap itself, though a form of poetry, absolutely was created inherently as style born and created out of rebellion, coming out of poor and secular African American culture. It never orginated in a pure way. You could argue that the style itself, though a form of poetry, is a style inspired by demons and that we should not take a style made by demons and try to turn that godly. That is a reasonably argument when put that way.

Arguing that heavy beats themselves are evil are poor arguments for me, just because tamborines, even timbrels are hand drums that cause a heavy beat in music made by godly people in the Bible and that heavy beat is not evil.

Your premise that rap alltogether should be thrown away is nevertheless a point that is worth further examining based on demonic origin of rap music along with its contents and culture and its negative influence that can even be seen in Christian rap in songs and spirit that does not reflect the Spirit of Christ as we have learned Him to be.

I haven't been fully convinced quite yet that it should alltogether be thrown away for all Christians but our dialogue is making me think about and further examine that option.

I nevertheless guarantee that this is a Romans 14 type of issue. Just as it is right to be able to eat all things but some believe it is right to eat only vegetables and could be offended that other believers should eat otherwise (Just as in todays age of how brethren should handle vegan brothers who come into the faith. "If food causes my brother to stumble I will never again eat meat lest I make my brother stumble." 1 Corinthians 8:13

We can eat meat and all meat but we have to consider our brethren where their conscience and faith is and be gentle with them because their souls and salvations are more important than them believing the right things about animals and food.) or some believe they should observe special days to the Lord.

In all of these issues and doubtful subjects there is an accurate and right way and an innacurate way that is not completely right but it is a minor issue and can be redeemed and accepted by the Lord by the faith of the person who practices it and we shouldn't divide from such brethren but should make arrangements in our lives to love and accept one another through those issues.

I say all this to say that most believers that you will talk to on this subject are not usually reasonable on subjects like this and argue very emotionally. Many are not easy to persuade on subjects like this and would need very good, clear concise and well put biblical arguments if you were to try to convince them otherwise and even then could still be hard of hearing.

I am one willing to dialogue and reasonably and prayerfully consider both sides of arguments to come to truth because truth is most important to me and not what I want or think is right. Discussions like this can be stumbling blocks to weaker or newer believers so it is important to rightly prioritize subjects like this.

Love absolutely will bring us all to accurate truth in Jesus and even if we weren't able to be convinced of things like rap music in this age we will be convinced of the truth of it when we stand before the Lord and He excuses the minor misunderstandings of His saints for their practice of the weightier matters of the Law and when He expels all wrong things out of His kingdom. We will all be unified under 100% accurate truth for sure in that age so keeping love until then is most important.

I mention these things as a reminder so all who see this discussion can stay focused on what is important.

I myself am happy to speak on and discuss any subject and I appreciate this discussion and I will look further into whether rap should be thrown away completely in the lives of saints. The stronger arguments I have found I will share with other believers that I know who are on the other end of the spectrum and I will see if they have any good non-emotional or self serving points to make for their side and I will pray and see what conclusion the Lord leads me to on this matter.

Ok, I agree. Beat is not wrong. Some of the best musical symphonies have a strong drumbeat at the end (Hallelujah Chorus for example). And I agree that beat can be used to glorify God, but not when it is being used solely to excite the flesh.

And yes, I see your point in the thing of others often just arguing this from an emotional viewpoint. I see the danger in that and I hope that is not what I look like- I am just sincerely trying to uphold my end of what I consider to be right. It is really helping me, though, to really rethink my position on all this.

Hi brothers and sisters,

I'd like to throw my 2 cents into the pot, if I may? (In other words this is just my opinion so to be taken with a grain of salt) :). I believe that some things/situations etc. aren't clearly defined in the Word of God, but the Scriptures that are provided, although specifically addressing one topic, can be applied to many others. Case in point Romans 14 (I believe Brother Justin suggested this one).

In it Paul is talking about food and drink and also mentions some people esteem one day over another. We live under the New Covenant which is the "Law of Liberty". We are no longer confined to certain things found in the Old Covenant. That being said, we were all made in the image of God. That to me means that we aren't like the creatures God created that operate under their instincts. They think in ways of survival. They are hungry, they eat. They thirst, they drink.

They mate for reproduction without any need of feelings of love etc. We however, made in image of God, can reason. We may be hungry but can choose to fast. Thirsty? The same thing. That goes on...! So in regards to things not specifically covered in the Word of God we can use our reasoning, filtered through His Word to make decisions about such matters. In such matters it's as Paul says in Romans 14-15:3.

We may have our own personal convictions about certain matters others don't but we shouldn't look down on them for it. I personally see nothing wrong with consuming alcohol. I see nothing in Scripture (as some claim) that states it's a sin. (drunkenness is sinful) I also see many other Scriptures that prove it isn't a sin. However, if I'm out to lunch or invited to a brethren's home who feels it's a sin, I'm not going to buy or show up with a bottle of wine.

I will not place a block of stumbling on the brethren. (Rm. 14:14-23) I will exercise my liberty at home, behind closed doors in thankfulness. I believe this applies not only to food, drink or certain days but can also be applied to music.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion, brother Lopez! Your input is highly valued.

So, in other words, you would be saying that listening to rap would not be wrong, but we must be careful not to make others stumble into sin. Great, that's fine, I completely agree, and I am really ok with brother Justin's standpoint on this subject. It's fine for him to be ok with rap and me not; even the Bible allows for different views between believers.

I, however, am still using this discussion to better understand where others can come from on things like this and so makes it very valuable to me to better understand others. Again, I am really learning in this discussion. I had thought that nearly every conservative Christian would shun rap and rock, but it's apparently not so.

Brother Judson,

I understand your reason for discussing this topic on here. I've learned a lot myself. My personal convictions won't allow me to listen to certain genres of music whether "Christian" or not. Rap, Rock and even some of the pop songs don't seem right to me. But since the Word isn't specific on this topic I feel we should go with our personal convictions making sure to filter them through the Word. I think of Miriam pulling out a timbrel, dancing and praising God after they crossed the Red Sea.

Exodus 15:20-21 We're not told that God rebuked them for that. Yet some today would say that's wrong. Playing music, dancing and carrying on like that. Then there's King David while wearing a linen ephod danced before the Ark of the Covenant because of his excitement. 2 Samuel 6:14-15. Some today would say that's wrong but consider 2 Samuel 6:16,20-23. I hope you see where I'm going with this. I don't know how to better explain it.

Yes I agree. Samuel's point is very sound. Have you ever heard of Paul Washer? He is a very conservative voice. No one would ever argue that he is liberal. He is a very strict well known teacher who strongly teaches holiness and the fear of God. He reminds me of Turtullian in the middle of the laxity in Christianity in his day. He gave an exhortation and warning to Christian rappers and he stated a point that I have been speaking of from his experience with some.

It is a very short message and exhortation. Let me know your thoughts if you can.

Paul Washer's warning to Christian rappers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jRUScX9Wjfg

Thanks for sharing Samuel! You made a very excellent and sound point. That is exactly how matters such as these should be handled. I myself prefer to learn and understand and be on the right side of the spectrum. Such as in the case of whether one believes he can eat all things and one who is weak in faith believes he can only eat vegetables. I prefer to be on the right side, such as on the side of eating all things as opposed to the weaker faith of eating only vegetables.

(And as you know I do have personal convinctions of being health conscious and being careful still of what we eat as you and I have discussed haha.) I love the truth and would love for us all to be united under the accurate truth.

But you are exactly right some subjects such as music, I know the Lord has left those matters ambiguous to us in His wisdom as a test to us of if we will find the straight and narrow way and will prioritize and value love above minor doctrines and disagreements with those doubtful subjects. I agree that it is fine for believers to listen to rap music or even produce it if they do it in faith and thanksgiving to God according to Romans 14 and God accepts them and works with them in that.

And it is fine for other believers to completely despise it and abstain from it alltogether while still loving and accepting their brethren who see differently on such things. It is similar to this word and point "Circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything but faith working through love." Galatians 5:6 Thanks for sharing!! It definitely was a great and valuable perspective from the word to share!

This is an album that I found very good. Hallal is one of my favorite genres of music if it is done well.

https://www.amazon.com/Savior-Hallal-Music/dp/B005C9WX9U

This is WASHER? I never would have thought he would have this kind of response to Christian rap... but then again, hearing his opinion makes me think twice... again. Yes, I do know him very well. Do you know where he was speaking here?

Thank you for your reply, brother Lopez

Your reply instigated a few thought trains from me. I do agree with your point there that we must fill in from our conscience when the word isn't exactly specific. But I think a lot of how we live and where we should be getting most of our guidlines is from Christ.

That is one point there. Another one is one that I use a lot in the topic of music. I often find that if music brings pleasure solely to the flesh, it can be dangerous (in other words, watch out!). So that is why so many conservatives don't like rap and rock and the like. And I think it is healthy to cultivate that sensitive feeling, especially with music. The more sensitive a conscience, the better. I have often wished myself that I had a more sensitive one.

So we must use whatever we have to sort through the trash that floats around everywhere.

Do you really think that the spirit of rap can made peaceful?

What do you all think of this?

https://www.deezer.com/us/track/779439372?autoplay=true

Sorry if you aren't logged in or signed up it won't play the whole song, just a 30-second clip.

The whole album is like that song. It's like it's dancing on the fine line between Baptist, Contemporary, and Country (however possible that may be) ;). Baptist is great if it is used lightly, but I think this is going a little over the normal range of that genre (maybe not).

This family has really inspired me. They are a Mennonite family living in northern PA somewhere. Just the way they use their lyrics and music to create stuff so inspiring...

They are available on Spotify and Itunes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU1LaI3PzLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLU9gERpnJY

Tell me what you all think of them if you can!

Judson

The second link, 'The Victory', was composed and written by the pianist (the oldest).

This was actually the family that I had given a link to earlier in the thread, but that link is misplaced or something because it takes you to a completely different website. I was a little shocked when I recently clicked. Sorry for those of you who followed it :).

Actually here is their complete Spotify website. (So sorry for all the small posts ;)

https://open.spotify.com/artist/64wHpTaHeYzda4NY0EMVaS

Does anyone here know the Praise & Harmony Hallal music group? I think they're pretty popular. Anyway, I got a few of their CDs and have been listening to some of their worship music. I would like to hear some of you all's thoughts on it.

https://open.spotify.com/artist/4WrPtbSgxMZ5U10DsTCBk8

a few of their top tracks- pretty typical