The Universal Invisible Church

If I'm not mistaken, Luther's doctrine of the Universal Invisible Church was one of the major problems the Anabaptists originally had with him. The Anabaptists said that the church is visible! I am thinking that UIC theology was part of Luther's way of excusing sin in the church. There is a certain measure of truth in the thinking; that is, all true Christians are brothers regardless of their church affiliation, language, or background.

The problems arise when we try to use the universal church body to replace the local body.

I don't know enough about the UIC to really give a detailed description or rebuttal of it.

Dear Brother Miller

It's been quite awhile since I last began this thread and posted till now replying to your much appreciated response. And I well agree with you when you said that the problems arises when we try to use the universal church body to replace the local body. This, I believe should never be so. You mentioned that there is a certain measure of truth in the thinking; that is, all true Christians are brothers regardless of their church affiliation, language, or background.

May I understand how Mennonites define "true Christians"?

The word 'Christian' (Christanos = follower of Christ, disciple) is used only 3 times in the NT.

1st time in Acts 11:23 - referring to disciples (members) of the church at Antioch;

2nd time in Acts 26:28 - Agrippa almost persuaded to become a Christian after being under conviction on hearing Paul's testimony of his witness of the heavenly vision and of Christ as the Light to both Jews and Gentiles.

Although the account recorded by Luke did not elaborate details of Paul's encounter with Christ, we know that the term Christian was a derogatory name or title given to any despised person who is a disciple or member of an assembly of the Lord, of which Paul was one - he submitted to the baptism of repentance into the remission of sins by the Damascus church (Mk 1:1-4; Acts 2:38).

Disciples were made, baptized, and continue to learn within the ministry of the Lord of the gospel (the whole counsel of God) taught within the church (Mat 28:19 - teaching them to observe all that the Lord has commanded the apostles of the church - the apostles' doctrine, Acts 2:42). God appointed some in the church, first apostles, .... - 1Cor 12:28. Context:

the Lord's church which at that time was only one kind - there were no other church other than those established by the authority of Christ given from the beginning to His 1st church at Jerusalem.

Thank you for your response, Brother Dennis.

Regarding how Mennonites define "true Christians", I can't speak for everyone, but for myself, I would consider someone a true Christian if he believes and obeys the Lord Jesus and has been baptized into a Scriptural church body.

As to whether an individual is a "true Christian" or not, I believe a person can know he is truly born again and walking with the Lord. I don't feel called to go out and judge each person I meet regarding his walk, but I do believe we should "provoke one another unto love and good works."

Thank you, Brother Miller

Indeed, it would not be well to go around judging who are or are not Christians within the assembly. Rather, we are taught to wash one another's feet, to deal with one another's sins (judge those within the body) in the love of Christ to build up the local body of Christ, in the right way, and as you said, to provoke one another to love and good works.

'Brethren' has been used in several ways in the New Testament - sometimes referring to tribes or kinsmen of the same nation (Israelites), and more commonly those who are fellow members of the Lord's churches (often addressed as brother/sister in Christ). I understand the definition of "in Christ" as the position of the new covenant that one enters into via repentance, faith, and baptism by the authority of the Lord's church - Gal 3:26-29; Eph 2:12,13.

Do Mennonites use the terms 'Christian' and 'brethren' to describe any person from any denominational church as already in Christ by the profession of faith? It is certainly not proper to openly judge any denominational group as scriptural or otherwise. But when it comes to matters of receiving someone from another denomination, what would be the Mennonite church practice? Would they be received into the membership of the church without the need to be rebaptized?

Would denominational churches be accepted as the Lord's churches, the temples/houses of God wherein dwells the Holy Spirit? Other than the mode (immersion/ pouring), does the Mennonite church require the scriptural church authority of a person's baptism in determining whether their baptism is scriptural in order to receive them into the membership of the body?

I understand that scriptural churches are established by heavenly authority that it already possess by virtue of the biblical church planting pattern of like begets like - a true church planting a true church wherein the Holy Spirit dwells just as the Tabernacle and Temple in the OT were established upon heavenly authority, though only physical in nature as buildings/ structures, yet nevertheless built with a heavenly blueprint and authorized by God.

God was pleased when they were so constructed and completed and His glory filled the tabernacle/ temple built according to His design. Thus did God dwell with His people. I see this same paradigm apply to the NT churches which are not physical buildings, but heavenly authorized assemblies where Christ is the true founder and Head - made up of faithful members with the living testimony of spiritual fruit of the Holy Spirit - love, faith, obedience, separation from the world, holiness, etc.

What is the Mennonite Church view?

What do Mennonites believe concerning the Holy Spirit - is the Holy Spirit received before baptism or after baptism (prior repentance and faith assumed here)?

Thank you for helping me understand the faith of Mennonites.

Brother Dennis,

You asked: "Do Mennonites use the terms ‘Christian’ and ‘brethren’ to describe any person from any denominational church as already in Christ by the profession of faith?"

My response: It all depends on the person and on the Mennonite church. I have Lutheran and other Protestant friends I would have no problem calling 'Christian' and 'brother', but I would not assign this privilege to anyone who claims to be a Christian.

You also asked about baptism. This is where there is controversy within Mennonite circles. My church (which is similar to Mennonite but with a unique flavor) has rebaptized people because they knew they were not repentant before their prior baptism. Some Mennonite-type churches practice this, some do not. Some, such as my church, would do this only if the person is sure he/she was not repentant. Others would practice it more freely.

You also asked: "What do Mennonites believe concerning the Holy Spirit – is the Holy Spirit received before baptism or after baptism (prior repentance and faith assumed here)?"

Most Mennonites, myself included, would tend to believe that the most common proof of the Holy Spirit in a person's life today is when they are able to live a life pleasing to God (not perfect, but with a general pattern of holiness). Thus, I must conclude that there is some kind of indwelling of the Holy Spirit when this occurs, whether the person has been baptized or not.

It takes more than human power to be able to consistently counter evil with kindness, to live a life of purity, to have a consistent pattern of delighting in good works. Yet these are things that many of us begin to experience before baptism. I do think, though, that baptism marks a new step in the Christian's life. Looking back at my own experience, I believe some of these fruits were evident before I was baptized, but they became "more natural" after my baptism.

Please note that my views on baptism are somewhat different than the typical Anabaptist view. I hold baptism in a higher view than most. Many Anabaptists (including Mennonites and Amish) would say that baptism is only a symbol- only something we do to obey God. I disagree. I think something spiritual happens at baptism. I don't know exactly what, but I don't consider a person's conversion complete until he has been baptized.