Is it consistent for a kingdom Christian to lobby or petition for certain rights or privileges? For example, when Mennonites sent a committee to Washington to establish CO status or exemption for school students to abstain from saluting the flag? This might fall into a little bit you could potentially argue this from the sense of Paul's statements there. Do either of you have any insights on this idea of trying to protect certain rights? Go ahead, David.
Yeah, I would see a pretty clear distinction between voting and petitioning. When you vote, you are part of the government. You know We the people. You are the government. You're the one running things. You're putting in you know your particular person. When you petition, you're a third party. You're asking a request. Joseph of Arimathea went up to Pontius Pilate and requested could he have the body of Jesus to bury it?
You aren't the government when you are asking the government, you are acknowledging, I'm not you. I'm asking this as a favor. And so yeah, I think it's always all right for a Christian to ask the government, particularly for godly things, not for political things. I don't know if the term lobby would be the right word to use with regards to the Mennonites talking to the government about conscientious objector status. That was a request, a petition lobby.
I mean, you might get technical on this, but normally that word is used to mean trying to influence political legislation, to influence how a congressman or woman is going to vote or something like that. I think I'd be afraid of crossing the line into lobbying, but making a petition. Hey, we don't believe in going to war. We think it is wrong to kill. Could we get some kind of exempt status? We're willing to do alternative service, whatever. And the Mennonites did that. They did it with all due respect.
And it was successful. I think God blessed that. So I do see a big distinction between being part of the government and being a third party asking the government for a favor. I think that's really well said. Yeah. And also, there is something also, and it kind of usually gets tied up into this discussion, is the church should always have a prophetic voice. And it is okay for us to call, as John the Baptist did, you know the governments to repentance.
Now, that usually doesn't come out right for us as far as the life that we live here. But I don't think we are supposed to lose the prophetic voice. That doesn't mean that we take part in the government, but that we should be speaking to the issues of the day. Yeah, that's an interesting, interesting way. Do you see a balance between having a prophetic voice and honoring the emperor or you know giving respect for respect is due? Absolutely.
And usually this comes out in very simple ways, is that so much stuff is just belittling. You know When you hear those things against President Trump, you know think about all the things said against him and then how many things are actually said against his different political things. Or you know it's usually his ridiculous tweets or something he did or whatever and all that stuff.
If we're going to talk about some of the issues that he's doing with war or with, you know, terrible things that are happening, that are sin, that are bringing into our country, we talk about those things, but we never partake of the belittling of it. It'll be the same thing with the Democratic president. There'll be all kind of terrible things about his past and his life and all those things. And unless we're speaking to the sin of what's happening in their life. And I think there's a place for that.
But it should always be loving our enemies. We're loving them. And we're wanting them to be in the best light as possible. Another problem with left and right in the world, they're so over each other, never listening to each other's arguments. If we stop and listen, oftentimes the left and the right are both having both good things to say and bad things to say.
And we have the beautiful position to be able to be in there and listen to these and say, yeah, guys, can you see the kingdom of God has an answer that can help both of you? But respect and honor has to be pouring out of us through that, I think. You don't really see any documentation of John the Baptist saying Herod was a jerk. Yeah, the closest you get is Jesus calling him a fox. So I don't know what to do with that, but that's the closest you get. Yeah, and I'd like your point about the derision.
I think every single president the United States has ever had lump them all together. And all of their wickedness together wouldn't even be one iota of the wickedness of Nero or Caligula. And I think God inspired the scriptures to be written when they were, when He's telling us to honor the emperor. We're looking at horrendously wicked people that even the pagan Romans were saying these men are wicked. And you had to be pretty wicked back then to cross that line. So I think he was making it clear in all settings.
We should be thankful that, you know, somebody like Trump or Obama or Clinton, whatever, they're saints compared to the kind of rulers the early Christians had. And yet the early Christians were so respectful to the very ones who were persecuting them. We should always remember on John the Baptist, he was dealing, again, his two kingdoms. He was still part of the old kind of the cross there. But he was talking to a fellow Jew. Herod was a convert to Judaism.
He was breaking the law of Moses that he was supposed to live on. They did not John nor Jesus, neither of them said anything about Caesar and what was going on in the realm outside of that. So I think we should always remember that. It's one thing in Judea, speaking of a fellow Jew under the old law versus, yeah, the two kingdoms and a different government. Yeah, that's good. One verse that I think helps me a lot, and I'll share it here if I can share my screen again. This one really puts it in perspective.
When we talk about who is going to win the election or who do we pray? This is from Daniel chapter four, verse 17. It's a really fundamental passage. This matter is by the decree of the watchers, that's the angels, and the demand by the word of the holy ones, to the intent that the living may know that the most high ruleth in the kingdom of men and giveth it to whomsoever he will and setteth up over it the basest of men.
And so if you think about is God going to get his man in power, that kind of puts it in a different perspective. Yeah. Well, thank you both for all of those, for all that discussion and responses here. I think that there's endless directions we can go with this and we can spend all day with the remaining I will
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