"Upside-Down Economics" by Zack Morgan

Lesson Transcript

Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him, and a threefold cord is not quickly broken. Welcome to Strength to Strength. One of our goals here is to advance Jesus' kingdom with thought-provoking topics, and I think that's what we're wanted to do today in this talk about upside-down economics. And as we were just talking here a bit ago, it's great to have Zach Morgan back. He has— he hasn't been on for quite a while. Had a topic back in the early days.

Well, it was still in COVID times, I guess, so. Yeah, great to have you, Zach. Zach lives in Central— Central PA with his wife and, I guess, 4 children now, and he's a concrete contractor. Zach is going to share his story, how he came to embrace Jesus' teaching on finances, and in this talk he's going to touch on investing, saving, and retirement. He also discusses how we can make the greatest impact in the kingdom with our financial resources.

So, as always, this is a timely topic, and— and I think it's something that— that's important for us to revisit and to think about, because, yeah, we are shaped pretty— pretty powerfully by the way we use money, and also the way people around us do it, and so it can— it can affect and influence us. So anyhow, good to have you on, Zach. And as usual, we will have a time of question and answer at the end, but before we get started, why don't we have a prayer? So let's pray. Father, I thank You again for this new day.

Thank You for Your goodness. Thank You for Your mercies. Thank You for this fall— this fall season and the beauty and bounty of it. And I just want to pray for Zach as he shares this morning. As we think about money and economics in Your kingdom, I pray that You would, yeah, just give him inspiration and bless him as he shares and what He has prepared here. And I pray that You would help us to look deeply into our own lives and think about— think well with You how we use our money and use Your money.

And I pray, Father, that You would— I pray that Your kingdom would come and Your will would be done here in our lives, here on earth, just like it is in heaven. And I pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Okay. Time is yours, Zach. God bless you. All right. Thank you. Well, it's very good to be here and sharing with you all. I— I don't claim to be a financial guru. I don't claim to— yeah, know everything about this topic, of course.

This is— what I'm going to do is share some of my story and how embracing the teachings of Jesus on investing— or on finances— really was one of the first steps to lead me to understand Jesus' kingdom. And it was one of the— one of the first— one of the first teachings that I really came to embrace.

And so this is a special— to me, it's a special topic, because it was— it was— it was something that I embraced even before I really knew other people that took this radical step in the teachings, embracing the teachings of Jesus. So my— I'm going to start back in 2004, when my— my parents moved back to the States from Japan in 2004. They had been missionaries in Japan— or tent makers, self-supporting missionaries in Japan.

And so I was 9 years old at the time, and, you know, it was really— it was really incredible coming back to— coming to the States. I had— I had lived the majority of my childhood up until that point in Japan, and so it was— there was a lot of cultural differences and culture shocks that I went through. And— but the thing that I think that affected me, that what shocked me the most, was how affordable things were here in the U.S.

And I remember looking through magazines and just being shocked how— how much— how much you could buy and how cheap things were. Now, I think things have changed in Japan since then. They have— have more trade, and I think things have become a little bit more affordable. But at that time, there was a big difference. And not only did I move to a country where there was a lot of— where you could buy a lot of things for cheap and things were affordable, but I also was living in the land of opportunity to make money.

And so the majority of our neighbors were retired people, and so I quickly found work mowing lawns, shoveling snow, and doing stuff like that, and I was making money. And so it was a good time— really good time in my life. My dad and I also, we sold campfire wood to vacationers on their way north. So when I was 12, I— I had— I was ready to start investing my money.

And I took the advice of a doomsday preacher on the radio, and I took $1,000, which was pretty much all my money, and I invested it into the best investment that you can make, the type of investment that doesn't lose its— its— will never— will always have some value, and that's precious metals. All right, so that's what I went and I put all my money into precious metals.

And I remember the post office worker, she came by to drop the package off, and she— she— she was like, "Whoa, this is— this is heavy." She says, "What's in it? Gold?" And I, of course, didn't say anything, because I was thinking, "Well, it's— it's just silver." But I was, of course, not going to disclose the contents of the package, because, you know, in the apocalypse, I didn't want people to know that I had precious metals stockpiled in my home.

And so— but speaking of the apocalypse, I had bought this— this— this silver, and I paid— it was $12 a troy ounce, so $12 per coin. But once society collapsed, according to this doomsday preacher, that one coin— or a couple coins— would buy a farm. So if you can do simple math, you— you can calculate how many farms I was on track to own. So I— for a 12-year-old, I was in a very good position. So I did sell the silver a number of years later, but I lost the farm. I— I made a profit and I lost the farm.

When we were 17, I moved to the northern— northern Michigan with my parents, and they had 30 tillable acres, and I decided to grow non-GMO soybeans. And we had a drought that year, and I didn't listen to the neighboring farmer's advice, and I didn't cultivate the beans. I— I thought if I cultivated the beans, then that— the little bit of moisture that was in the ground would be exposed and evaporate. But when the— when the rains did come, the weeds went out of control, and I pretty much had a crop failure.

So thankfully, the price for non-GMO soybeans was— was quite high, and I was able to cover my expenses. After that, I tried to raise calves, and I had raised a few calves when I was younger, but I was going to make a real business out of this. And it was the beginning of the year. Calves at the sale barn were selling for almost nothing, and beef prices were expected to go up. So I went out and I bought a bunch of calves at the sale barn, and I put them in two big pens.

So if you know anything about raising calves, there were two major mistakes with that, and that's going to the sale barn, where there's a lot— they're exposed to a lot of disease. These were bottle calves, so they were young and— and really susceptible to disease, so they were exposed to a lot of disease. And then not only were they exposed, and they were brought from different farms, but I consolidated them into big pens.

And there was— I don't know if I had 8 calves per pen, but the majority of the calves died, and that was around a dozen that died. And, of course, the negative 20-degree weather— winter— didn't help. But thankfully, 6 calves survived, and beef prices had jumped significantly, and I was able to break even. So every aspiring entrepreneur has to have a stint with a multi-level marketing company, and that's just written in the coding of the universe. It's just a trial that you have to pass through.

And I chose Conklin to be my fate. Now, I was 19, and I had been doing carpentry work for a couple years. But, you know, with a couple years' experience under my belt doing carpentry work, I decided I was going to launch into a commercial roofing business using Conklin's product. So— and for those of you who are not aware of Conklin, I would be more than happy to meet with you afterwards and discuss with you the benefit of residual income and passive income. There's sarcasm there, but.

It was a multi-level marketing, or pyramid scheme, however you want to call it. But I— so I named my business ProTech Commercial Roofing. I went out to Kansas City, got a bunch of training, spent a bunch of money— spent a bunch of money on advertising, and— and yeah, and then I spent a whole summer— it was at least 2 months, maybe more— of going out every day and knocking on doors of commercial clients, people who own commercial buildings.

And so I would just drive around all the towns that were within an hour of my parents' place and just— I kept handing out flyers and knocking on doors. Two— two or three months that I did that. And, you know, surprisingly, I almost— I think I almost landed a couple contracts, and— but I was too young, too inexperienced, and I think a little too eager.

And at one point I came to— I was— I had pretty much spent all my money trying to get this started, and I was digging through my coin jar, getting all the quarters out of my— my coin jar to have enough money to buy gas so I could keep knocking on doors. Wow. And, you know, I was living at home, so it wasn't like I had to pay for expenses. But, you know, that's— as I say, that's the closest I've ever been to gambling. Just one more door, one more— maybe the next big payoff is at the next place.

And so looking back over all my— as a— even as a young person, all my failed businesses and really moti— the motivation and the desire to have money. I don't believe that greed was the main motivation for me. I think maybe there was some, or covetousness, there was some that motivated me. I think a lot of it— and I think this applies to a lot of people— is that the security of money is— is really a big motivation for people to accumulate wealth.

And for me as well, I felt stigma, whether it was real or imagined, of being poor and— at least in our— in our standards, what poor— what poor is. And my family had struggled financially while we lived in the thumb, and they had gone through some difficult times. And there were a couple times where my dad didn't have enough money to pay the bills and something would happen, a couple times where one of us would hit a deer and total the van, and that was enough money to pay— pay the bills for the— for the time being.

And then we would just drive around, you know, then we wouldn't fix the van up. We'd collect the— the collision on that and just not fix the van up and drive a smashed-around minivan up, just— just to be able to pay the bills. And, you know, I remember going to the laundromat because we didn't have money to fix the— the washer, you know, living in a house with peeling paint. I— you know, I— I drove a minivan to the youth group, our youth activities, and my friends drove much nicer cars and trucks.

And as you can imagine, it wasn't a nice, nice minivan, you know, it was— it was a clunker. And my dad was stressed, my parents were stressed, my dad juggling the bills to keep the power companies from turning the lights off. I didn't like being poor. And I— I recognize that there's people that have gone through a lot more difficult times than that. But this is my experience, and this is what I was reacting to, I believe, really fighting— fighting against it.

And, you know, thankfully, when I was 21, I had been really— I was a Christian, but I really was trying to do things my way and trying to create my life in the way that I thought was a good direction to go. And I had multiple things crash down on me at the same time: relationships, and of course, I was broke, I didn't have money, and I just— I felt like I was just walking on a treadmill, not— not getting anywhere in life.

And God reached out to me, and God really brought me to a point where I was broken, and I was able to surrender my whole life to Him. And really, all these aspects of my life where I was just struggling and— and fighting, and I had to agree with what the Bible said about wealth. And this— I'm going to read 1 Timothy 6:5-10. "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness. From such withdraw thyself; but godliness with contentment is great gain.

For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be there with content. But they that will be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

For the love of money is the root of all evil, which while some covet it after, they have erred from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." So that's some hard words, and it says that a Christian who loves money has erred from the faith. And I knew I loved money, but I knew what the Bible said was true, because the desire to be rich had already felt like I'd pierced myself with many sorrows. It's a burden to— it's a burden when you can't be content with what you have. It really is a burden.

And so I surrendered, and I gave— I gave up my right to be, quote-unquote, "successful," and I gave myself to God's service and God's will. And I started to adopt kingdom economics. And, you know, with it being a burden, just try knocking on doors and try to start a business that— that really was— was going nowhere. And it was— it was a real frustration and a burden, and I was trying to prove something, and it was a relief just to be able to let that go and say, "Okay, I don't have to— I don't have to prove this.

I'm going to— I'm going to go— I'm going to just give it to God and allow His way— His will in my life." And as in everything, when we surrender to God, it's always, always the best thing that will happen to us. Because we— we think we know what we want, and— but God knows what we want so much better. And so when we give up, it's such a hard thing to do, but it's worth it every time.

And— and I just want to share with you all that, really, the result of this surrendering to God and allowing— and being willing to embrace His way in my life was really the greatest blessing that happened to me in my life. And the result of that was surrendering to God and saying, "Okay, God, I don't have to start a business, I don't have to prove anything, I don't have to be successful." And— and that freed me up. And I— soon after, the opportunity to go down to Guatemala came.

And so because I wasn't bound to anything here, I was free, and I was able to go down to Guatemala. And I met my wife in Guatemala. She's, you know, from Pennsylvania, but she was also down— serving down there as well. And the— the really interesting thing that happened through this was, you know, I— I met Abigail, and I really, you know, I thought she was— she was a nice girl, but I didn't expect, you know, that there was any, you know, possibility to marry— to marry her.

And I had— at this time, I had met very few people who held to my radical view on finances. And especially at this time when I had just embraced this, I— I was fairly— had some very strong opinions. And I think that's fairly common when you first embrace something, until you can actually flesh it out. So I was pretty— pretty strong, maybe a little judgmental, but radical nonetheless.

And I— I knew I couldn't yoke myself with someone who— who didn't believe the same way that I believed and was willing to embrace the lifestyle that I wanted to live. But through the course of things, I found out that Abigail was part of Shippensburg Christian Fellowship, and I overheard someone make a derogatory comment about Shippensburg and their view of finances, which piqued my interest, because I didn't really know that there were other people out there that— other churches that believed this way.

And so I remember on one of my furloughs, I went to the library because we didn't have internet at home, and I went to the library and I googled Shippensburg Christian Fellowship. And I read there some articles about covetousness and— and wealth, and I— and really the rest is history. That was really what opened the door for me to pursue a relationship with my wife. So this— this topic is, you know, special to both of us. This was something that brought us together, Abigail and I.

And for her, it also was an answer to prayer to marry someone who shared her view on kingdom economics. You know, she— I think there was, you know, for her it was— it was a deal-breaker as well if someone wasn't willing to embrace this. And she always thought there wasn't many people, young men, that believed this way. And so her— her thought was that if she would ever get married, she would marry a poor man. And that was her maybe remedy to the— the situation, that she would marry a poor man.

And, you know, funny story, after she— after we were married, my wife told me, she said, "You know, Zach, I said that if we were ever married— if I ever would get married, I would marry a poor man." And then my wife looks at me and she said, "Zach, you are more than a dream come true." So I don't— I— I've decided to take that as a compliment, but she— she won't tell me exactly what she meant by that to this day. So I'm taking that as a good thing. I'm more than a dream come true as a poor man. All right.

So that's— that's a little bit of my story. Of course, my story is still developing and being played out every day. It's a battle that we all have to face, and I face it every day. And one of the blessings that I have found in managing a business is that there's no— I'm always— maybe for my business, it hasn't come as easily for me. With my current business, concrete contracting, it hasn't come easily for me as a lot of my peers that do the same thing. And so I'm always struggling.

And I'm— I'm— I'm blessed by that, because I'm glad that there's been many times where I pray and God provides, and I have learned to trust Him. And— and yeah, so, you know, my story is still being played out and still learning, and I'm still growing. So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to move into some statements and/or questions that I've heard people make over the years. And so I'm going to present these statements, and then I'm going to respond to these statements or questions.

So the first one, I think we've— you know, many of us have heard this, and this is not a new response at all. Actually, it comes back to Jesus, what He said. But I just want to make sure we cover this. Excuse me. So the statement is that even though I have all these earthly treasures, my heart is not attached to them. Jesus says, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal.

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart—" excuse me— "will be also." So the command is not to lay up treasure on earth. Why? Because it's temporary. Jesus has our best interest in mind. He knows that this treasure will not last. But He gives us something to do proactively, and He says to lay up treasure in heaven, because that is eternal.

And so the outcome is that where your stuff is, that where your heart will— that's where your heart will be. And it's not the other way around. It's not where your heart is, that's where your treasure will be. Jesus says that where your treasures are, that is where your heart will be. Our focus will be on our treasure, and that's how wealth affects our destiny. So the question is, where do you store your wealth?

Another statement that I've heard is, "God doesn't need your filthy looker to accomplish His will." My answer to that— my response to that question is that God has chosen people to be the ones to do His will on earth. Jesus has commissioned the church to be His hands and feet. He has chosen to yoke with us. He has chosen to use us as His agents on earth. How God's will is accomplished on earth is through the faithfulness of humans. And God has chosen to rely on us, and it's a big responsibility that we have.

So in a sense, that God— in a way, God does need the money you have. He needs— He needs your faithfulness. So— and the next statement is where I really want to dwell on for a little bit here. And so this leads into another— the next statement is, "So if that's the case, the more money I can make, the more of an impact I can have in the kingdom." And I— and I— I see how people think this way.

If God has chosen to use us, then— then the more money I can have, the more money that I can make and give away, the more of an impact I will have. So my response to that is that the way the Israelites gave to God to accomplish His will was through sacrifice. They brought the best of their animals or crops, and they sacrificed it to the Lord. To do God's will involved a sacrifice. There are two New Testament examples that I want to look at which involve sacrifice, and the one is the widow and her two mites.

And we know the story where Jesus sat on the treasury, and the— all these rich men, they cast in a bunch of money. They put in a bunch of money. And here comes this widow, and she put in two mites. And Jesus said, "She put in more than the rest, because they out of their abundance cast in to the treasury, but— but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, even her whole livelihood. She put in more. She sacrificed." And then in John 6, the story of the— the loaves— the loaves and the fishes.

And we— we read about the boy, and he had five loaves and two fishes. It was all he had with him at the moment, at least. And he gave it all to Jesus. And Jesus took the sacrifice of this young boy, everything he had with him at the moment, He gave it to Jesus. Jesus took this sacrifice, and Jesus multiplied the sacrifice. And that— to the point where there was— where there was leftover. And Jesus multiplied what that boy had.

And so I believe that the way to use our money to impact the world, the way to use our money to build a kingdom, is through sacrifice. And the times in my life where God was able to work the most was when I was surrendered and I laid my life on the altar. God can take the little that we have and greatly multiply it when self is not in the way. And God has bound Himself to us, and He's depending on us to be His agents on this earth. He's depending on us to do His will.

But what enables God to work through us, what allows God to multiply the loaves and the fish, is not how much we give, but how much we sacrifice. And Jesus made this clear in the— in the story of the widow and her two mites. And if it wasn't so— if this wasn't the case, then the rich would be the ones who would have the most opportunity to give. The rich would be the ones with the greatest impact in the kingdom. But we have to remember what our Lord said.

He said, "Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of heaven." In Jesus' kingdom, the poor have the greatest opportunity to be great. And keeping sacrifice as the focal point also addresses laziness in the kingdom. There's a temptation to think that if I can't— if I can't save money, if I can't accumulate wealth, then I'm going to work the bare minimum that I have to do, that I have to work. But we really should be working to support the needs of our own and those of others.

We should be sacrificing for the greater good of others. We should use the gifts that God has given us to promote human flourishing. But I believe the key to success is through sacrifice. All right. The next statement is— is my statement, and— and that is that poverty is a no bueno situation. Poverty is a no bueno situation. I have some friends that were missionaries in an Asian country that was a very poor country.

And the— the— the natives, I guess, of this country would— they— they would assume— they would— they would look at the American, the American Christians, and they would wonder why they were happy. And these people assumed that the Americans were happy because they were rich. I was like, "Oh, you must be happy because you have money and you're rich." You know, and then the Americans would explain that, you know, money is not what makes you happy, but it's Jesus that makes you happy.

And one of the pastor's wife— one of the— yeah, the pastor's wife in this country, she— she kind of got fed up with the Americans, and she said that having no food and having nothing doesn't make you happy either. And so in Proverbs 30:8-9, it says, "Remove falsehood and lies far from me. Give me neither poverty nor riches. Feed me with the food allotted to me. Lest I be full and deny you, and say, 'Who is the Lord?' Or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God." The ideal has never been poverty.

In the garden, the ideal was plenty, abundance with enough to go around for all. And so to be poor for the purpose of being poor is not the answer. That's asceticism. But to be poor, or to go without so that others may have, that's wisdom. And there is also— there is also the fact that we— we are in the wilderness. We aren't in the promised land yet. We're trying to get back to the garden. And so there is that sense of that we do live in— in a— in a poor state in this world, and true riches are still yet to come.

Now, jumping back to the story that I just shared about this— these mission— these American missionaries in this Asian country. There was a real ironic twist to this story. So as I was preparing for this talk, I decided to verify with my friend about this story that happened, with the pastor's wife, you know, saying that having nothing and no food to eat doesn't make you happy either.

And so he messaged me back and he said, "Yeah, that's— that's really interesting that you— you— you asked about this." Because what ended up happening with this pastor and his wife is they were put out of the church because they were swindling money out of the— out of the coffers. And so he's like, "You can choose whether you want to share that story or not." And I thought about it, and— and I thought, you know, I think— I think what it proves, still, is that poverty, or being poor, is— is not a virtue.

Being poor in and of itself is not a virtue. And— yeah, and so at the end of the day, we still need to be poor in spirit. So that's not an automatic— being poor is not an automatic virtue. It's we still need to be poor in spirit. And I think that those who are poor tend to be poor in spirit. And there's something about wealth, the self-sufficiency that breeds individualism and pride, that works against being poor in spirit. So poverty— poverty in and of itself is not a virtue. All right.

And one thing I'm not going to talk about today is almsgiving, necessarily. Maybe I'm touching on that a little bit, and sacrifice and giving to others. But someday I'd like to talk about that, at least study into that a little bit more on— on almsgiving. And the early church had a lot of comments on that. And— but I will just drop a very convicting quote from John Chrysostom. And he says, "Not to share our wealth— our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life.

We do not possess our own wealth but theirs." So think on that for a little bit. We have a lot of responsibility. So the next question that people have when it comes to wealth is, "What should I do about investing my money? Should I have a savings account? Should I save money?" So we are going to be investing in— there's either one of or two things that we will be investing in. We'll either invest in ourselves or we'll invest in others, which, you know, comes under the umbrella of the kingdom.

Investing into others, investing into God's kingdom. And I believe that there is a time for both. We have to provide for ourselves, we have to eat, we have to take care of our families. And in the world we live in, you will need to save your money too. If you choose to buy a house or a car or make a big purchase, you will have to save your money. And so I believe saving money with a clear goal is good. Saving money just to have and lay up treasure is not wise.

So I'm not here to tell you whether you should invest your money or not. So I guess— I guess my response to that is I want to make— I want to present— I want to do a thought experiment with this whole investing, this topic on invest— investing. So in an economy, when people don't spend money, that is one thing that leads to a recession. What's great for an economy is when people are spending money, money's flowing, changing between hands, and, you know, every— everybody benefits from a strong economy.

And I think it's the same with the kingdom, the economy of the kingdom. So the argument out there is that if I can invest my money into earthly investments, then years down the road I will have more money to give to God. And the thought experiment that I would like to do is, let's— let's imagine that the kingdom economy is a real economy, which it— which actually really is a real economy, right? It's not a made-up thing.

So let's say that you have an opportunity to invest into the kingdom by giving to someone in need. But instead you decide to take that money and you invest it into the earthly economy. Years down the road, if everything pans out and it— you know, if you don't lose your money in the investment, and if everything works out, you will be able to give much more than you initially could. So you take this money that— that grew, and you— you donate this money, you give it away for a good cause.

But the question really becomes, so all those years, your money gained interest based on the earthly economy. So let's say the kingdom economy is real. Wouldn't it be reasonable to think that it operates in the same way of the earthly economy? Wouldn't it be reasonable to think that the sooner you invest your money, the greater the return will be?

What if the $100 you invested 20 years ago into the kingdom has done more good and created more treasure in heaven for you than the $1,000 you invest into the kingdom today? And I think we should seriously consider this. And, you know, using the— the story of the widow and her two mites, Jesus said that her two mites have— has done more good than the rest of those people who cast into the treasury. And just think about the impact that that widow has had on Christianity, how many people she has inspired.

So we cannot— when we give, it's the upside-down concept. If we cannot fully, as humans, understand how God works, and that's why we have to take things by faith and simplicity— in simplicity, and just follow— and follow Jesus and do what He says. So I am 32, and so technically I'm halfway to retirement. Yay! But we'll— we'll talk about retirement here. So I'm going to put— I'm going to create two categories in retirement, and create two— and say there's two— two types of retirement.

So in Luke 12, there's that parable of the rich man and his— his— his land brought forth plentifully, and he said— he said, "What am I going to do with all my things?" He said, "I have nowhere to store them." And so he says, "Okay, I know what I'll do. I'm going to tear down my barns and I'm going to build bigger. And I'm going to have a place to keep all my goods." And then— then he said, "Soul, you have much— you have goods laid up for many years.

Take your ease, eat, drink, and be merry." And then God says, "Foolish— foolish man, you do not know that tonight your— you— your soul is required of you." And he— then God says, "Whose— whose stuff is all this going to be?" You know, God's just shaking His head. And then Jesus says, He says, "So is everyone that lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God." And then Jesus goes on and He says, "Don't take thought for your life.

What you're going to eat, what you're going to drink, don't worry about tomorrow." And life is so much more than the physical things. And then Jesus calls our attention to the— His creation. And— and as a side note, the— the times where you're stressed and you're worried, the best thing to do is look at God's creation. He said the— the lilies of the field, they don't— they don't try to clothe themselves. They don't— they don't— you know, the sparrows, they don't worry about tomorrow.

And aren't— aren't you worth much more than these? And then Jesus says— Jesus says, "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be taken care of." All these things will be added to you when we have the right focus. And talking about worry, my good friend Craig, we— we work together. I'm— I'm really blessed to have— have a brother, work alongside a brother every day. And he— we've known each other for— for 20 years now, and our personalities are— are different.

And he's— well, he calls me the— the prairie dog. I'm always alert, looking for danger, trying to disseminate any problems that— that's going on. And I call him the groundhog. He just— he just digs into it and gets things done and takes care of— yeah, it just— yeah. So we— we work together well. Let's just put it that way. And, you know, we— we do concrete work, so there's always things that can go wrong. You have equipment, you're moving equipment around, and, you know, concrete, rain, all that.

And whenever I'm— I'm worrying about something and I'm— I'm bouncing the idea off of him, like, "Hey, what do you think about this? What do you think is going to happen?" He's like, "You know, if you worry enough, I think everything will be just fine." And it's just, you know, his— his way of saying, "What are you doing? Like, why— what do you expect by worrying? How is that going to make a difference?" So he— he just says, you know, "When you worry, just try to worry a little bit more.

Just worry enough and I think it'll work out." So that's a side note on worry. It really doesn't do us much good. All right. So getting back to retirement. So Jesus said that the man who laid up treasure and took his— and took his ease, He called him a fool.

And so that's one aspect of retirement that I think, in our circles and our Anabaptist circles for the most part, is that we— I don't see it happen very often where people retire and then they just take it easy and they— they enjoy life and do whatever they want. And I think it's understood, for the most part, in our Anabaptist circles, that as long as you are healthy and you— you are strong, you should be working and be productive and— and be giving to society.

So— so that's, you know, a pretty much— in our circles, I would say it's an under— it's understood that, you know, we're not here to take our ease. We should be productive. We should be giving back. So when I speak of retirement, I'm speaking of a time when you are no longer able to work and provide for yourself. All right? So Jesus does say, "Don't worry about your life." He says, "Don't worry about the future.

Seek first the kingdom of God and your needs will be met." But let's say you decide to choose to save for retirement, for the time when you are not able to work. So the question becomes, "How much will— should you save?" And, you know, there's a formula for saving for retirement. And— but this formula is what the world recommends. And my question is, do you really want to follow the formula of the world and how they— how they handle money and their view— the world's concept of finances?

We had— we had a client where we were working for and he was talking to Craig. As I said, we worked together. And he told Craig, he said, "If there's any advice that I can give you, retire at—" he said, "This is the best advice I can give you, is retire at 55." And, you know, Craig said, "Wow." You know, Craig told me, he said, "Wow, that's— that's the best advice you have for me." You know? And so it's— retirement is something that people really— especially in the world, it's— it's very important.

So, yeah, so do we want to follow the world? Do we want to follow the ways of the world? And in the last number of years, I've been— I've been— have found value in looking back through history and follow the examples of our ancestors. We can find value in living a way that's been done for a long time. The longer something is practiced, the more it proves itself. So thing— things that don't work do not stand the test of time. And the younger caring for the elder has been going on since the beginning of time.

There's been much sacrifice over time of people caring for their elders, but sacrifice is good. So when we lived in Japan, the first number of years, we lived in a more rural area, and there are still multi-generational homes. Grandparents would live with their children and their grandchildren. And I'm sure it wasn't all rosy, but there— it created this aspect of the younger respecting the elder. And I think it's always a— it's a good— it's a good thing. And there's sacrifice.

I'm sure there was a lot of sacrifice in many homes, but sacrifice is good. After a quick research online, I found this: the current model of retirement had its beginning in the Industrial Revolution. The Social Security Act of 1935 laid the foundation for modern retirement. But it wasn't until 1980 where saving for retirement became the norm. That's— that's 50 years. Less than 50 years that modern retirement has been proven. And I don't think it really has proven itself to work very well.

So modern retirement, I believe, leads to individualism in— in the sense of that you're self-sufficient, you don't need other people, until you do. And that's when you land in a nursing home. And then that leads to loneliness. And so I think if we— if we really look at this from a Christian perspective, retirement has not— or saving for retirement has not really proven itself to be— to have worked very well. And I— I speak with some trepidation.

I— I see there's older brothers here on the call that maybe have a different view on retirement by now than I do. At— at 32, it's really easy to— to talk about retirement and maybe have a rosy— rosy view— view on this. I— yeah. So when I'm— when I'm— when I'm reaching that point, I guess that's when it will be proven whether— whether I— what I say is I'm going to follow through with it.

But I have seen people who are— who have— have not saved for retirement, and they are older, and they've followed through, and it's been a blessing in their life. And so what we've seen through history is— is younger people caring for their elders. And that's what has— that— that is how— that is how the majority of the history of the world has— how the elders have been taken care of is through the next generation.

And so my— my— my retirement plan, what I'm focusing on now is the next generation, investing into the next generation. So I have a 5-year-old son, and I asked him, I said— I said, "Wyatt," I said, "When I am too old and I can't work anymore," I said— I said, "Who's going to take care of me?" He looked up to me from what he was doing, and he said— he's like, "I can't answer that question." Okay, well, tough luck there, I guess. So I was going to try my 3-year-old daughter.

I said, "Adelyn," I said, "Who's going to take care of me when I'm too old to take care of myself?" And she had a ready response with— she said, "Mama will." So I got a little ways to go, but it's still— it's still a work in progress, and it may take a while. But I do believe investing into the next generation is the best retirement plan, and it's the most secure. And it's not just the most secure financially.

And I— I don't want to live my life in a way and say, and— and at the end, you know, tell my children, "Since I took care of you and I raised you, now you're obligated to take care of me." I want to live my life where they want to care for me and they want to take care of me. And the beautiful thing about the kingdom is that even though you may not have children or your children are physically unable to care for you, you can still invest into the lives of others.

So— and I understand that you can pick out inconsistencies with my approach. Someone who owns a farm or who has a successful business may not need to save for retirement. You know, even a house is an investment. Even— that's even something that we can fall back on in— in hard times, if you own your house. So I know that there is a lot of growth ahead of me on learning how to handle money and being faithful with it.

And I know that there are still inconsistencies with my approach, but I would rather deal with and work on the inconsistencies and wrestle with the teachings of Jesus than to disregard what Jesus says and be 100% consistent. And so my encouragement for everyone is to put your confidence in the church. Put your confidence in the next generation. Invest into others. Invest into the church. Investing our time and money into the church is never a bad investment.

In Mark 10, we— we read a story about the rich young ruler, and he goes— he leaves Jesus, and Jesus says, you know, the rich young ruler wants to know what he must— what's lacking in his life. And Jesus says, "Sell all that you have, give to the poor, and come follow me." And he went away grieved because he had a lot of— he had a lot of stuff.

And Jesus looked at his disciples and he said, "How hardly do those who have riches will enter the kingdom of God?" And his disciples were like, "Whoa, who's— who could be saved?" And I guess they didn't say at the time, "Who can—" well, maybe in another passage it says, "Who can be saved?" But they were— they were surprised at what Jesus says.

And then Jesus said— he said— he said, "Children, how hard is it for them who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God?" And he talks about the camel going through the eye of a needle. It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom. And Peter said— he said, "What about us?

We've— we've left everything and followed you." And Jesus answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, there is no man that had left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands for my sake in the gospels. But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time." Houses, brethren, sisters, mothers, children, and lands, with persecutions, with difficulties, and the world to come, and in the world to come, eternal life.

If we sacrifice our financial security for the sake of Christ and the gospel, and if we sacrifice our family, when we leave everything that's keeping us from God and we turn and we follow God, no matter what the cost, we will be rewarded by being blessed with a spiritual family as well as the physical resources that comes with being part of the family of God. Ecclesiastes 11:1 says, "Cast your bread upon the waters, for you shall find it after many days." Your bold generosity will someday be rewarded.

And that's all I have. Thanks a lot, Zach. That was— that's inspiring and challenging. I guess what I'm just thinking about here, some of your last comments. Yeah, so I think I can question whether my investment, like, if I— when I'm investing in the kingdom, like, is that really— is that really a secure investment? Yeah. Do you have any comments on how to bolster our confidence in kingdom investment? The only thing I can say is what Jesus talks about.

He says, "Unless you—" I think it's in— maybe in Mark 10 where he says, "Unless you accept the kingdom as a little child, you will not enter therein." And we have to believe what Jesus says like little children. To just— just take— take his word for it. Just take his word for it. And I— that's— that's all I can say. And it's— it's tough, but that's— you know, that's— to me, that's— that's what my thought is on that. Yeah, thanks. We just got to believe it. We got to believe it. Sure. Because he's a good God.

Or he's a good father. He really is. I mean, and— and like he said in— in what passage I read earlier, "Look at creation." He's a good— he's a— he's a— we live in a— a world with a generous host. We live with a— a— a— a God who really cares about us and has created a lot of beauty around us. And, yeah, and so that's, I guess, maybe a response to that would be take time to look at creation. And just take time to consider. Take time to look and ponder and stop. Thanks.

Yeah, so we're going to open it up for your questions, for Zach to respond to. I do have one other question here yet before I— before I turn it over to anyone else. Zach, you— you touched early— early on in your— like, your statements about what people say and the one about— though I— you know, even though I have all these earthly treasures, my heart's not attached to them. Do you have a good metric for us, a measurement of how to know when something is a treasure? How do I know what a treasure is in my life?

Is everything a treasure, or is— yeah. Yeah, I mean, not really. I mean, I— I— yeah, that's a good— that's a good response. I mean, but what— but what ge— all right, good question. I don't— I don't know. I don't know, Wendell. For me, it's just that to me, what— taking what Jesus says, it appears to be that where your treasure is, there— that's where your heart is. So whatever you have is going to be a treasure. Your stuff is just your treasure. This is— this is my understanding.

The things that we have in this earth is going to be a treasure. So the more we have, the more treasures we're going to have. Does that— does that— does that make sense, or does that answer your question? I mean, I guess for myself, it's always been a— it's been hard to know what— yeah, what— what counts, or what— what is my treasure. And— and I agree, like, just stuff. And I've definitely found that— that the things I have do pull my attention.

And, like, even— and then when you think about investing in the kingdom, when you have invested in— with time or money into things, it does pull your attention there too. So, I mean, it's— Yeah, it's good. I think it's proof that— that what Jesus says is true in, you know, just— just proof by experience. That's a good— that's a good point. Thank you for that. That's a good point. Yeah. Well, let's— let's just open this up. If you have a question for Zach or some comments about this talk, let's— this is your time.

Well, Zach, thank you very much for sharing. I— I have a lot more questions that are, you know, rolling through my mind, and— and this was very inspirational. One question I would ask for you is, we have had— in our church community here, we've got a handful of older folks that have, you know, they build businesses and— and— and things like that, and— and some of them are, you know, well-to-do.

And then we've got a younger generation that has been exposed to some of these teachings, and we've got a few young unmarried men that have taken this to the level of pretty much giving away most of their wealth. And— but then when they started courting a lady and then got married, they were experiencing some pretty dramatic financial hardships and not being able to pay for some of their bills and— and had a very hard time getting started in life.

Do you have any thoughts on that, on how to instill some of these teachings of Jesus while still providing for our own? Especially, I'm thinking with the younger generation and with some of the challenges that has brought with it. Yeah, so maybe I'll just speak from my own experience. And so I was a young unmarried man that was judgmental and somewhat judgmental and— and harsh with other people. And I do look back on the— the time that I had as a young person to live— to not have a lot of things.

And I look back at that as really fond memories. And I'm really thankful for the opportunities I was able to help other people, whether it was just financially or with my time. And— and so, yeah, in— in a way, I did go through, you know, go through that, what some of these young— younger people went through. But for me, it was a little different in that, okay, so I didn't save up money. I didn't have money saved up when we— when we got married.

But for me, maybe my testimony is a little bit different, that things have just worked out really well. And that God has always provided, and things have come down, especially when we first were starting out. I look back at that time as just real fond memories of, you know, trusting God and allowing— you know, allowing Him to work in our life. And so, yeah, I— you know, and so, like, right now, I— I'm saving a little bit of money to buy a house, or I'm saving money to, you know, buy a house and all that.

And I— I could have maybe done that— I could have maybe done that, you know, before I got married. But I'm just really glad that the opportunity I had to be— I— I was glad for the opportunity, and the— the opportunity to give, and then also the opportunity that it led to, to trust God through difficult times, that He would provide.

So I don't have an answer, like, how to— how to encourage people to be still, you know, "responsible." I think some of it has to be where people have to work through their— yeah, young people can be— can be judgmental and, you know, maybe take things— you know, take extreme. But I don't know if that's always a bad thing either. That's part of their desire to follow God. And I've— you know, I don't know.

So that— that's at least my testimony, but I don't really have a— I don't really have an answer to how to— to deal with that or respond to— encourage those brothers, I guess. Other than it's worked— it's worked— has been working well for me, so. Yeah, and I think you hit a key point. Part of a young man's desire to serve sometimes comes out in a— in a judgmental way, especially when he sees nobody else is following those principles.

And so I think maybe more of it lies in that aspect than— than in— that causes the difficulties, maybe more so than the actual saving or not saving. Absolutely. Absolutely. So thank you for highlighting that. Yeah, I think, you know, and that's why I'm hesitant to bring this up or to speak on this topic, because I'm not, you know, a retirement. I'm not close to retirement.

And I've seen in the past where, as a young single person, I was judgmental toward people with families and, you know, how they handled— handled money. And I'm not saying all that judgment wasn't, like, completely unfounded, but I— I did— I have— I have changed and— and maybe mellowed out a little bit. So, yeah, that's definitely— definitely a big— big part of this, so. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Brother, I really appreciated your talk this morning, your candor as well, and your humor.

Really, really inspiring to me. And, yeah, so you made some profound points. And as I was listening here, I thought, you know, this is a message that I want— I want my older sons to hear. You know, we— I have teenage sons, and the challenge of— yeah, the challenge of helping them catch a kingdom vision. I mean, we have money in ways that my boys have money in ways that I didn't at their age. And opportunities.

And of course, you know, as we all know, we live in a world where, you know, we're being engaged with tons of hobbies and ways to spend your money. It's just— yeah, I find it very challenging and a— and a big— big responsibility on my part to— to help them catch a kingdom vision. And also to give them time to, you know, just realizing that I was a young guy, you know, and didn't— didn't— was fairly irresponsible too. But, yeah, how do you get them to be responsible? So profound talk. Thank you for— for sharing.

And also, I just loved your interest in, too, the challenge, or maybe the— some of the unintended consequences of, like, this kingdom vision is it can lead to laziness at times in— in some people. And that's— that's— that was— that's some good— good word there. And when you look at— I have a— I have a verse here from Acts 20:34-35. It's Paul. He said, "You yourselves know that these hands have provided for my needs and for those who were with me.

In every way I've shown you that by laboring like this, it is necessary to help the weak and to keep in— and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus, for He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" And— and that idea of sacrifice at the heart of it is beautiful. And, you know, there's a lot of ways to work this out, but at the heart of it is, if we're not— if we don't have the Spirit of Christ, "I didn't come to be served, but to serve," then it's not of Christ. Yeah.

And so that's a principle that applies to every Christian everywhere. Yeah. Thank you, brother. Yeah, thanks for sharing. I'd like to make another comment. You know, you're talking about your sons and helping them work through. And the difficult thing with finances is there's not a clear-cut. It's really hard to say, well, what's wealth, what's rich, what's poor. You know, you can say, well, someone in Guatemala is poor. Well, Guatemala could look to someone in South Sudan or Somalia, you know. Right.

And they still have multiple times more wealth than someone in Somalia would. And so there's not a clear-cut line of rich, poor, you know, where are we? And so it's something that we really need to wrestle through with ourselves. And just going back on the— the concept of, like, we— this is about you. It's not about other people. And it's about me. It's about me. And— and how am I living my life?

And, you know, this— this message is convicting for me as well, you know, because, like, I in no way profess to be a spiritual financial guru or anything. And, you know, there's definitely work in my life, and I should be focused on that and not, you know, other people, so— and how they're doing it, so. Zach, thank you for your talk this morning. Appreciate it a lot, really. Yeah, thank you. I've been— have been just really challenged with that thought of— I really appreciate the challenge of your talk.

And— and it's— yeah, it's really deep, especially for just being young, learning how I'm going to handle this thing of money. We have lots of time, lots of money, lots of opportunities. You know, what— what are we going to do with it? But— and I trust the Lord. But a lot of times what I see is— something that challenges me is, okay, look, I'm just going to trust the Lord. You know, He's going to provide, and He will.

But a lot of times that comes from the people that saved and have a little extra money to be able to, you know, share and take care of a needy sister in church. And so I— I don't know. I— it's real. It's really real. And I— my wife and I pray about it often. I— I don't know exactly what to do with it all, besides just wrestle through it and try and discern what the Lord's saying. But I— on one hand, I— I kind of want to just go whole hog into what you're saying. I want to just give it all away. Don't have anything.

Just be— trust the Lord. But then what I see a lot of times is those people that have done that end up falling back on someone who did save. And I don't know, just a real challenge for me. I— I'm not saying you're wrong at all. I— I really appreciate all your thoughts, but it's definitely something that I wrestle with daily, probably, really. Certainly. Yeah. Yeah, and— no, and— and I think it goes back to, like, we all believe in saving is good to a point.

Whether that's $100 or, you know, 100,000, I don't— wherever you land in that. Like— and so that's why it's hard, because I should say most of us believe in saving, you know. And so that's why it's hard. It's like, where is— where is that line? Where's that the magic number, you know, where it's— where it's— it's good, you know? And so that's why— that's— that's the teachings of Jesus, is we have to wrestle through them. So— and that's— that's a good place to be. A really good place to be. I— Zach. I just— sorry.

No, go ahead, Noam. Hey, I'd just like to thank you for bringing that clarity, Zach. I— there is something within us that gets the idea sometime, if we wrestle with it, that we're not getting it right. And— and you're so correct. It is a good spot to be. Learning godly wisdom and discernment is difficult work. And— Yeah. And— and I loved the encouragement to embrace that. Yeah. Absolutely. Zach, I just want to say thank you for your talk this morning. I really appreciated it.

Very challenging and really balanced, I believe. I was curious if you ever read the Randy Alcorn book called The Treasure Principle. Not sure if the— yeah, Zoom's going to blur it out here. But anyway. No, I have it. Called— I highly recommend the book. He actually— a lot of what you said, because it's based— what you said was biblical. And I feel like Randy really did a great job at basing that book. It's a pretty small book, but pretty simple.

The idea of investing now in the kingdom, not thinking, you know, I'm going to save up a lot of money. It's going to be a lot more in 20 years or 50 years, and then I'll— but investing now. Investing now in the kingdom. Really, really appreciate that. Good. One of the things— and I think maybe Wendell was you that had the question, how do we— where's the metric between is this a treasure or not? And I think Randy in his— in this book does a great job of helping us think through that a bit.

Is this a treasure or a tool? Because— well, to give a little context here, I'll just explain. We live in Colombia, South America, and we work with a tremendous amount of CAM funds for the Venezuelan refugees. So we're dealing with people on a daily basis who literally are looking for their next meal. They can't find work. I mean, the work— we're right here on the border with Venezuela, and the daily wage is worth about $10 if you can find work.

And the problem is there's thousands and thousands of people that are looking for jobs too, and there just isn't work to be had. So it's— it's a really difficult place. We— we a lot of times encourage people to— to move on. Like, okay, you've come out of Venezuela, but— but move on, because this is just not— this border town is not— you're not going to find work here. And even with our local church community, we have Venezuelans and Colombians both as members.

And, you know, we try to help generate jobs for them, but it's a real challenge even in our own church. So my point in all that is saying, I'm really glad that there are many people in the United States and elsewhere who are using their businesses as tools, using their— even their— their jobs. Any— basically, if we have money that is— to— to your point, Zach, about saving up, I don't— I don't— I'm not going to say where that amount is. I think it's probably wise to have some cushion, some rainy-day fund.

But, you know, if we're just putting it in a savings account, if it's just— if we're just building up treasure, that— there's a difference between doing that on a personal level versus having a business that is generating funds that we can then continue to— to give away. And I— I think CAM, you know, millions of dollars per year. I don't even know what the— the amount they handle. I think they're doing a tremendous amount of good. And I don't mean just a single CAM out. There's many others too.

Tremendous amount of good across the world. And I think that's just— that's a wonderful thing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And— and— and, you know, like I touched on before that, God, you know, for whatever reason, has bound Himself with us to work with us on this project on this earth. And He— He needs us to work with Him. And I mean, we need to work with Him as well. But at the end of the day, it's how much we're willing to, you know, sacrifice. And, you know. Yep.

God can use the little we have with a surrendered heart, so. Amen. Yeah, thanks for sharing. Yes. Yeah, thanks, Roderick. Is there anyone else that has questions or comments? If not, I just— I'm just thinking back— thinking over my— I guess my take-home from this is that the idea of sacrifice. And I think— I think that's so important, Zach. I really— I think that's a— that's a good way to look at this, that— that what counts really is sacrifice rather than dollar signs. So that's powerful.

And then also just, I guess, maybe for me personally, and maybe— maybe for— maybe the rest of you, this might— I don't know where this— this hits you, but He said, "You made a comment and went, 'If you feel anxious or stressed, look at creation.'" So, I mean, that's— that is— that's powerful too. Thank you for that reminder. Go— go out and spend some time in— in creation. Look how God works. He's a— He's a very generous God. Yeah, He is. So thank you. Thanks so much, Zach.

Like I said, I— and— and several of you commented too. This is something that I think we need to continue to wrestle with as we live, because as we— as— as some of us have gotten older and realized that— that things maybe aren't so simple as we thought in our— in our young— in our young— younger ages, you know. Maybe— maybe there's a little more hum— humility there with it.

But— but then as— as people who are— who have gotten older, and maybe— maybe that security of money is, you know, it— it does tend to get— it's— get its jaws onto you. And we need some of the idealism of young people too, of just saying, like, "Hey, this is what Jesus said. Are we willing to listen or not?" Yeah. So thanks so much. This is— this is great. Yeah. Yeah, Zach, would you lead us in a closing prayer yet? Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let's pray. Father, thank You for this day. Thank You for Your love.

Thank You for this opportunity to share. Help us to continue to seek first Your kingdom and Your righteousness and all these things, and trusting that all these things will be added to us. Help all of us to be faithful today with what You call us to be, and not look at others and how they're doing it, but look at ourselves. And I thank You for each of these brothers on the call. That You'll bless them today, and just for Your love, and that they'll have a good— good day. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen. Amen.

Thanks again, Zach, and thank You to everyone who joined us. And see You next time. God bless. As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.