Salt & Light: Biblical Stewardship Course (interview 2)

This is S2S Books, and today I'm here with Craig Steiner, and we're going to be having a conversation about the methodology behind Salt and Light Course. And some of you would probably have heard our interview that we did several months ago on the site in Salt and Light Court with Clyde and another brother. And that talk was, or that interview was more around kind of the high-level overview of the Salt and Light Course, as well as several stories about how that was used in a particular area. And today, Craig is with us to talk more about the methodology behind it and some of the ways that it can be used. So, Craig, it's good to have you here.

Thank you for joining here today. Craig is from Belize, where he and his wife and two children live. They lived there for 10 years and is serving there long-term in that country. So, God bless you with your work there. And then Craig also works virtually for several different organizations, and one of those is the SALT program, which is under Christian Aid Ministries, working with them in that program, which includes the SALT, includes programs all over the world, savings groups, and low-tech schools, and agriculture, and all kinds of things. And so, but today we're here to talk specifically about Salt and Light Course, which is a Bible-based financial teaching course to help you demonstrate God's kingdom locally.

It helps you discover how to become better stewards of God's resources and become actively engaged with your local community, your church, and also the youth in your church. So, the Salt and Light Course has four different tracks, which we'll be touching on a little bit later. And this course is specifically for Anabaptist churches who aspire to become trustworthy stewards of the resources that God has given them and those who desire to share God's principles with others. So, we're going to go ahead and just turn to Craig here. Craig, so obviously you were involved, very involved with the writing of these courses, and so you have an intimate knowledge of the burden, the vision for this course.

And so, talk to us a little bit about what makes the Salt and Light Course distinctive, maybe among other stewardship courses, and maybe you can kind of get into some of the methodology behind it, the focus, the purpose, and possibly maybe even tell us a little about what impacted you or what stood out to you as you were part of writing this course. So, go ahead, Craig.

Thank you, Brian. Yeah, this course, there are lots of courses out there that would love to tell you how to spend your money and where to give it and how to use it. And this course is more than a financial course. It's the concept of stewardship and that everything we have belongs to God, not just our money. And it's about asking the question, "How do you want me to use what you've given me?" And so that's kind of the starting point. That's a foundational part of Salt and Light and the courses. How can we use what God has given us well and to build His kingdom?

And so what makes this a little different than is a lot of financial courses will give you, do this and this and this and give you exact steps and a prescriptive sort of approach. And this is not that.

This course approaches it differently in we have the truth. Here's the Bible truth. And so in each lesson, we point that out. Here's what the Bible says. Here are the principles. And then we ask questions. God, what do you want me to do with what do you want us to do with this truth, this principle? And then we do a lot of discussion. We ask, have people discussing, "How do we use this principle? What does it look like for you in your life?" We're not saying that truth is relative, and what's truth for me isn't truth for you. But we're all at different places in life. And so how I'm going to use that principle may look a little different than how you're going to use it.

And if you make a blank statement, you give this amount to God, and well, okay, well, I do that, and I'm guilt-free. Off I go. I've done my—and that's not what it's about. It's not. It's constantly wrestling with the Bible principle, and here's what God says, and then how do I use this? How does God want me to use this where I'm at right now in life?

And so that's one of the big things that's different about this course. You're not going to find the prescriptive model. I've had numerous people ask me. They knew I was working on this course. And, well, what about this?

What do you—how should I do this? What exactly does it say about this? Well, that's not what it's necessary. I'm not telling you this is how you have to do it. You ask God. You look at those principles, and as a brotherhood, you wrestle with what does this look like?

So that's one of the biggest things that makes it distinct or different. Sure. Yeah, that's good. I taught school for a couple of years, and so you're thinking and wrestling with what is the most effective way to teach, kind of a philosophy of teaching, if you will, or pedagogy.

And I always remember the statement, "It's not the answer that enlightens, but it's the question." And the reason that statement is made is because as you get people to ask to think themselves, so what data do I have? What are the principles? And then how do I apply those? And so it's that person, each individual wrestling with those things. That's good. One of the things that stands out too about SALT in general, but also these courses, is the fact that you don't use, as I understand, a teacher-student kind of paradigm.

Could you kind of unpack that a little bit as we're thinking about what is it like to not only be part of a class, if you will, or a group that's going through this, but maybe even leading it? What does that look like?

Yeah. So in this course, we use the words participant and facilitator. Under ideal conditions, the word teacher would be a facilitator. An ideal teacher uses questions and gets students involved, but sometimes we get the mindset of a teacher being somebody who's up there lecturing.

And so we've used the word facilitator and then participant to indicate or to capture the idea that you're not lecturing. We're learners together. And so the one leading the discussion is a facilitator. He's facilitating discussion. And the ones involved are participants. They're participating. They're not sliding into the backbench at an evening service or a meeting or a study and kind of slouching down and listening to what's happening. They're actively participating in what's happening. And so we use participatory learning, and we use the model that you have one leading and everyone's involved for a better learning experience. You walk more when using that model.

Sure. Sure. And there's several things that happen with that, as you mentioned. But one of the things I want to point out is that a lot of people can feel very incompetent to be the teacher, if you will. So the purpose of this course is more than just one-on-one. It's looking at several, a class, a number of participants kind of working through this together. I'm not sure what the ideal size is, or you probably don't really necessarily have any ideal size, but I would think it'd work for any size. You can elaborate on that if you'd like. But what that does is it kind of makes it more doable. You don't have to be somebody who's taught classes or a school teacher or gifted necessarily as a teacher.

It's more about getting that group together and working through that, asking those questions, having more group discussion together. That's the beauty of it. And so it lowers maybe some of the difficulty, if you will, of having to get up front and give a 45-minute lecture. The goal is, yeah, as you mentioned, is participatory. And so I wanted to say that because I think a lot of people are fearful of kind of being the leader for something like this. But whether it's a savings group in Bangladesh or the Salt and Light course here, it's very participant-based.

Exactly. And we get up front and you're the one in front, so you're supposed to have all the answers and teach us. Well, that isn't necessarily correct. Someone has said you're the guide on the side and not the sage on the stage.

I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Great. You're the one leading the discussion, not necessarily the one with all the answers. And the courses are intended for group study. You can go through it yourself personally and wrestle with some of the questions, but the benefit is quite a bit bigger if you go through it as a group with a number of people and interpreting scripture together and applying it together.

Sure.

Yeah. One of the other things that makes this course distinct is after you've heard a message or a lesson or something like that, what do you remember for weeks and years afterward? It's the illustrations. It's the stories. It's the lessons. And so in addition to kind of being a whole life stewardship and not necessarily prescriptive, but more participatory, one of the other things that makes this course a little different is that we include a lot of activities and stories and illustrations, things that a week or two later, you're going to remember.

Even my own children, they remember some of these stories, and they can quote them back to me a year or two later. They still remember some of these stories that I've told them. And so it illustrates the power of using some of those things to teach. And so every lesson, it's got those elements in it to show.

As an example, one of them in the one track, the opening activity, it's talking about the opportunity. No, it's talking about looking at what God has given us and asking, "Why has He given me so much, and what does He want me to do with it?"

And so we start out with taking 10 people out of the study group. This would assume it's in a larger setting, say, like a Wednesday night Bible study if your church does those or something like that. Take 10 people, line them up in front, and split them up into a group of seven on one side and three over on the other, and then take 100 M&Ms.

And take 97 of those M&Ms and give it to three people, to the group of three. And then take three M&Ms and give it to the group of seven and say, "Here you go." And that illustrates the distribution of wealth in our world.

It's showing the disparity. And so if you have 10,000 US dollars in assets, you're part of that group of three that's struggling to hold on to their big pile of 97 M&Ms in their hands while the other group is trying to figure out how to split three M&Ms among them. And so it illustrates how wealth is divided. And then we stop and ask the question, "Well, what does God have in mind?

Why is it this way? What does He want me to do?" And you can extend that activity by sending the seven people out of the room where you don't see them anywhere. And that's how it typically is. We look around and we only see people with hands full of M&Ms.

Anyway, activities like that, we use those things to try to help us understand some of the principles and then ask, "Okay, what does God want us to do? What does He have in mind?" And so that's something else that makes this course distinct. It's not a book full of paragraph after paragraph of words.

There are things like that to help us understand as well. That was distinctive that this course has.

Yeah. Interesting. It's powerful.

Yeah. So one of the next steps here for us, Craig, is kind of looking at the formats of the lessons here that we're talking about. But did you want to give any more thoughts or stories in regards to things that impacted you? Or do you want to keep that for later?

One of the things in writing these lessons, one of the things that these stories affect me as well. It's not just for those doing the course later. As writers, these stories affect us. And one of the stories that affected me in writing this was we start out track C with a story, and we end track C returning to that same story that we've got the book up. Track C, this is for our Anabaptist churches.

And we talk about Trey and Haley. And Trey and Haley, it's a true story with names changed, and talks about some of the difficulties they faced in life and difficulties with finances, but with other things in life, and how one Christian family came alongside them and simply walked with them and was able to make a difference. The story doesn't end with a fairy tale ending with everything being perfect, but that's fine. That's life. But it's a powerful story of how when we as Christians take our responsibility of stewardship seriously, and we also start to understand that it's not just a responsibility, it's an opportunity. We have a tremendous opportunity. It's not a have to. It's a want to.

And the changes that can happen when we realize that the person pushing the shopping cart down the aisle at Walmart beside us might be struggling. And maybe we have some hope and some purpose in life that they could really use. And so we have a stewardship responsibility, but we have an opportunity. And so that story is in there. And there's an extension of it in track D for the youth as well with their daughter.

Just a powerful example of what it looks like when we start to understand really what stewardship looks like. So that's exciting. That's beautiful.

A little bunny trail. Do you have Walmarts in Belize? We don't. Okay. We don't. I'm sorry. I was laughing there when you said, "What did you say there?" We do not have Walmart here. That has to happen when we visit grandparents every once in a while. So you're contextualizing yourself to the audience here most likely, right? Okay. Good.

That is correct. All right. Well, thank you for that. So let's go ahead and move into our next section here, Craig. And that is a format of the lessons. Talk to us about that a little bit. Sure. So the lessons are divided up into a somewhat consistent pattern. There are sections that you'll have in every lesson, in every track. We start out with what we call a looking back section where it's review. It's reflecting on the previous lesson.

And so questions and reflections, those questions are listed at the end of the previous lesson so that if you pick and choose some of the additional topics, you can choose whatever order, whatever fits your setting. It's kind of a self-contained unit. So we prompt you to do that review, and then you just go back to whatever lesson you did previously and do the review, do the looking back section just as a way to come back and reinforce. And sometimes there are assignments or activities to be done between lessons. And so it's going back and reflecting on what you learned there. And then we start out with a from the Bible section. That's a Bible principle.

That's where we start most of the time with, "Here are some principles from the Bible and a few questions. What does this tell us? How do we understand that?" And then from there, we move to what we call the big picture. And that's a real-life story or some statistics or something like that that helps us to understand the principle that we're talking about in that lesson, what we're wrestling with, something that illustrates it or helps us to understand it. And then after that, we go to the section called Life with Bill and Sarah. Bill and Sarah are fictional characters that you'll find all through the Salt and Light courses.

And those stories are written to help us to kind of set up the questions. One of them is dealing with children and finances. And so Bill and Sarah have a—Bill and Sarah's children have an uncle that gives them some money. And so then, well, what are we going to do with the children's money? Do we save it? What do we do? We give it to them. And well, we could give it to them and let them go on a shopping spree. And it kind of sets up to the question, "Okay, what are we going to do with this money that's been given for our children? What's the most healthy?" And so then we go into questions.

What would you do in a case like this? What's best? What are the pros and cons of doing it some of these different ways? And so that's the Bill and Sarah story. Sometimes if we simply tell a principle, we forget it. But if we see it illustrated in a story, it helps us to remember and understand what we're talking about. And then from there, most of the lessons have an activity, something to do in groups, something to do personally, depending on what it is, an activity for you to actually use and engage with the material in the lesson.

And then every lesson ends with the prompt to track income and expenses. And we do have worksheets and things in there to get you started. They're fairly simple worksheets. So some people track expenses through an app or through other methods. And that's totally fine. But the goal is to encourage us to realize the power of tracking where our money is going. If someone's struggling, that's the place to start. Track where it's going, and then you can look at where it's going. So we have that prompt in every lesson as well. So that's kind of the format that you'll find in every lesson in each of these courses.

That's good. Very well. I like that. So it's not only dialogue in a class. You're looking at some action items as well, some things to do. Yeah. That's a part of it. Maybe habits, leaning into the habits part, which is really powerful.

Yeah. The goal is we can sit in a discussion in a Bible study, and we listen, we hear great things, and we walk out the doors afterward, and nothing changed. We take away nothing to change. And so the goal in every lesson is, while we're there, to be engaged, to participate, but then also when we walk out the door, to have one or several things that we know we can do, an action item that we can put in practice. And it's not just, "Oh yeah, we had a great study, but nothing changed." Sure. Yeah. Good. Okay. Well, why don't we transition to the facilitator's guide? And you can kind of come back to the participant guide if you'd like here, what we just discussed.

But the facilitator guide, you have that well done for every book. So right here, we have this was a participant guide. This is track A right here, a big, thick book with lots of, as you talk about stories and additional topics and lessons. And then this is a facilitator's guide, which again is quite thick. And you have in each lesson or each page, you have the accompanying page from the participant guide there. And then around the outside of that, you have some guides and ways of leading out with the class. But yeah, tell us a little more about the facilitator guide and what's all part of this.

Sure. Each track has a participant guide. And most of us, when we're going to lead a discussion, we feel a little more comfortable if we've got something that's just for me leading it. So that's this. And so we do have the participant guide reproduced in there in an inset. But then around the side, we do have notes and helps and things for the facilitator.

And so possibly for me, often when I lead a study or something, I think about all the great questions that I should have asked afterward. And so this has questions, has questions to add to questions. So as you're leading out, it helps you get started with the studying. It helps you lead out with where to go, how to lead the discussion.

It does not have the answers to the questions in the participant guide. So if you're used to participant guide has questions, go to the teacher's guide to find answers, that's not this. This has some thoughts and responses to those questions.

It definitely does have some of that, but it's not a fill-in-the-blank sort of answer type of thing. It's to help you lead the discussion well, to be that guide on the side. Sure. Not the sage on the stage, but the guide on the side. Absolutely. That's the purpose.

And people can sense that if we truly have that in us, that desire to be the guide on the side, not the man with all the answers, as a way of drawing people in, and they feel included, there's dignity with that. I'm not above you. I'm a human just like you.

And we're going to learn together. So yeah, that vision, that guiding principle is beautiful. Really, it's humility. I don't have the answers. I'm a learner just like you are. And in our own churches, that's important. But as you relate to others who maybe are searching for a church or searching for answers, if we come with a smugness that we've got life figured out, we've got the answers, nobody's interested in that sort of an attitude. We've got it figured out. Someday you'll be like us. That doesn't work. And so I'm a learner just like you are. I've been walking this journey for a while, and I would love to encourage you on your journey as well.

It's that attitude that goes far. And so that's the approach that we want to take with this course. And we want facilitators to have that attitude as well, that I'm simply a learner among learners.

Very good. Okay. So we want to talk about our intended audience here shortly as we kind of move through this conversation. But yeah, any more thoughts you want to give here, Craig, on whether it's the participant guides or the tracks? There's several tracks, which we'll touch on that here shortly, or the facilitator guide. Any more input there?

Maybe I would just mention the format. We talked about the format of the lessons.

We have a foundational set of principles in each of these tracks. So we start out with some foundational principles. But then we've got about 30 lessons that come after it and individual topics that you can pick from that whatever fits your audience. And so whether it's on debt or investing or buying a house or things like that, saving, giving, you can pick and choose from those. We have a couple of lessons on family, children. We have a few lessons on, we call them the golden years, once we're older and thinking about retirement. Some of those end-of-life questions are big questions, especially in the area of finances and on work. Sometimes we view work as a curse, but it's not.

And then we have a number of lessons, six lessons on starting a business and some of the things to think about with starting a business. And so every track has that in. And those all have the same format. They all have the same stories and sections that go with, just like the foundational lessons in each book as well.

So you can kind of pick and choose which lessons, which topics apply from you for your setting with wherever you're at. And they all have the same format. Sure. Yeah, that's very interesting. Great. Okay. Well, Craig, why don't we talk about the intended audience? Sure. So these courses are intended for our Anabaptist churches to use in different settings. That's the target. And then we have the opportunity to take them to various settings and use them. And so we've got four tracks, and each track has a specific purpose.

And God takes us from where we are to where He wants us to be. And so this course recognizes that. And so each of these four courses has a different starting point. And it approaches things because that's what God does. He meets us where we are and then takes us toward where He wants us to be.

And so track A is for those who have chronic financial difficulties. That one's got a few more lessons in. That one's got 12 foundational principle lessons. And then it's got the 30 additional topics after that yet that you can pick and choose from. And that would be for those who are payday loans, living paycheck to paycheck, just really struggling financially.

Track A would cover some very, very basic things like expense tracking and basic budgeting and things like that, just to help get those habits and disciplines started.

And so that's track A. Track B would be for others around you, probably friends and neighbors and coworkers or maybe even employees who want financial teaching. There's track B. And they want financial teaching because finances cause difficulty. They cause pain sometimes.

And sometimes we're not sure what to do with them. I think finances are about the number one cause of divorce. I don't remember for sure if it's first or second, but it's very close to the top. And so it does cause difficulties in families and in marriages. And so track B is for people who would like financial teaching but probably wouldn't set foot in your church to get it.

Maybe they'd be a little nervous about that, but they want maybe you have some employees that you'd like to be able to share that with or some friends, some neighbors. Track B starts out looking at some of that difficulty that finances can cause and then thinking about a good way forward to some of the principles that God would have for us that help us to live well with what He's given us. So that's track B. Track C then is for our own Anabaptist churches.

And it has five foundational lessons and then the 30 lessons after it. Track B and D also have five foundational lessons and then the 30 after it. The 30 lessons are the same in every book. You can pick and choose what you want to study, but the five that start each one are different based on your starting point. And so track C looks at what God's given us. God's given us much and asks the question, "Why has He given it? And what does He want us to do with it?" And looks at our responsibility and the opportunity that we have with what He's given us.

And so that's for use in our own churches. Often, if churches have small groups, if that do a study together, if churches do a Wednesday evening Bible study as an entire church, some churches will do a summer Bible school for adults, like a week-long or a two-week. We've had groups that have used it there, have tested it for us in that type of a setting. And so a couple of different settings where that could be used or has been used.

And then track D is for young adult. Pardon me. Young adult. And so that's got the five opening lessons, and then that's got the 30 additional topics after it. And track D looks at what God has given us, but really focuses on the idea of opportunity.

As we're young, we have our life in front of us, it looks like. And so we're asking questions like, "God, what do you want me to do with my life? And how do you want me to live? And where do you want me to go?" And so track D looks at stewardship from that perspective, using my resources, but also my life and asking God, "What do you want me to do with it?"

So that's track D, focusing on that opportunity. And here again, in all of these, it's not an idea that we've got it figured out and you don't, especially when relating to our friends and neighbors. It's the idea that we are learners with you. As you go through the activities on tracking your expenses, we're going to do it with you because we have things we can learn as well. And so it's that learner attitude in every one of these tracks.

Thank you. So for those who are looking at which track fits for me, sometimes that can be overwhelming. "Well, what do I pick? I've got all these options here." And as you're thinking about which one to use, think about your starting point. That's the key.

Where is my group starting from? And that'll tell you which track to select.

Yeah. And that's something that, as I got introduced to Salt and Light Course and then looking at these four different tracks, I really resonated with that, with that perspective of where is your starting point and then getting the track that's applicable to that. So you're tailoring it to the needs right around you. So it's really a powerful way of developing this.

But yeah, so I really want to bless you and your team. I know this has been the work of a lot of people, a collaboration of a lot of brothers there, and also with a lot of experience. So you've been kind of testing this course for North America for the last five or six years. And so you've been learning and developing it based on your feedback. And so I'm so excited to see this course made available to us. It has a ton of potential. We just need to find people who are willing to step forward and make this happen.

And one thing that we didn't really talk about, we did in our last discussion with Clyde and the other brother. I'm forgetting his name now. The brother from Florida. Nelson. Thank you. With Clyde and Nelson is, how do you get people into these interested in a course?

And one thing that was discussed quite a bit that maybe surfaced is the importance of relationship. And as I look at this, whether you're track A, working with your neighbor down the street who really is in crisis, track B, the more the maybe blue-collar person or probably more like a lot of our neighbors that are around us kind of here in North America, or C, local church, or D, youth, I just see relationship all across those, right? It's in that no one's being paid to come. No one's being forced to come or coerced to come. It's more of an invitation.

And the way we really help put wills to that is by focusing on relationships and connection when people actually want to join because they trust you. They have a relationship with you. And so I think that's maybe I don't know. That's at the heart of this. And maybe that's actually part of the difficulty of this is developing those relationships where people are willing to ask those questions, kind of of 1 Peter 3:15, when they ask of you the hope that's within you. And we can tell them. And so which speaks of relationship. It speaks of connection.

And so finding those spaces to build those relationships, whether in the church or outside the church, where these courses then can then be integrated is the challenge for me. And I'm sure for you and for anyone who's thinking down this track, down this line.

And one of the things that I think it was either Clyde or Nelson mentioned, one of them, I think mentioned in the past that this course is not the salt and light. Thinking of Jesus' words in Matthew 5, "To be salt and light." This course isn't the salt and the light. We are, as believers, we are the salt. We are the light. And this course is a tool for us to do that. It's a tremendous tool to do that. But we can't forget, like you're mentioning, that it's the relationship that's going to the relationship is just core. It's foundational in starting and in going through these courses, that the human element that God has chosen to work through is important.

And we can't forget that. Good. Okay. Thank you. Craig, let's move into kind of wrap up here. So what are some of the things that stood out to you? You were touching at this back at the beginning a little bit, but let's kind of end this conversation here with that. What are some of the things that challenge you, stood out to you, some of the principles, maybe even a story or two kind of as you work through this course?

The Trent and Haley story was a significant story for me, just realizing that the person at the gas pump beside me or at Walmart, they're a person as well, and they have struggles, and I have an opportunity. One of the other stories, as I was writing the lesson on employment, drudgery or joy, thinking about our work and whether it's, "Oh, I have to go to work again." You see people that they don't want to be there, and they clock in for the pay, and that's about it. And others who are just excited about being there. And so we have a lesson thinking about that because that's actually pretty important in stewardship. And as I went to write the big picture story for that lesson, I struggled.

I want a real-life story that shows this. And most of the people who are thriving in their work are quietly doing it. They're not going to have a biography written about them. They're in every corner of planet Earth, and they go to work every day to give their best because they love God and they want to show Him to other people around them.

And I ended up taking about 10 different people that I know, and I would call them heroes, people you'll never see a biography written about them, but a short description of each of these 10 people and what they do every day at work to make a difference for the kingdom of God wherever they're called.

And so we highlight, and that turned out to be probably one of my favorite sections. You probably won't know these people ever. You won't see a biography, but I decided to give them a couple of sentences highlighting their contribution to the kingdom of God every day at work.

And that's important.

Sometimes we refer to this idea as a sacred secular divide, right? Kind of Sunday is the sacred part. The rest of the week is the secular part. And I hear you advocating for removing that dichotomy, right? Bringing these things together and looking at it as a divine calling.

Absolutely. And I'm really passionate about that. I believe that that middle-of-the-week interaction, whether with a person from your church or it might be working with them, or that customer or guest for me, we have a café. It's in the drudgery.

It's in the normal that we can really shuffle with the new humanity when it's least expected. And everyone knows it's just a lot of us spend time making a living. And to look at that, to embrace that as an opportunity. And you're pushing on that with these tracks.

You have that lesson. I think it's in every book on business and kind of trying to unpack, push back against the sacred secular divide. So I really, really appreciate that. If we look at stewardship and using my time for God and sharing that with others as something extra that we tack on in between the rest of our life, we get frustrated because we're busy people. And yes, we need to make a specific effort, and we need to dedicate time. But it's part of our life. My work is ministry. It's mission work. Everything I do is part of my job. It's mission work. It's not something that I split out for one day a week or a year or two of my life.

It's part of my life. And that's important. Sure. Thank you, Craig. Thank you for all the work that you put into these tracks. I'm not much of a writer. You're obviously gifted more in that area. Or maybe you've exercised that part of you way more than me. But I know it's hard work.

And you're really developing something where there's a lot of thought being put into how you can empower people, really create a platform that people can spring from and carry forth the message of God's kingdom. So thank you for your work in that. Is there anything else you want to put in here before we wrap up this conversation?

I would love to see this course be a blessing to people and to be a help and an encouragement. And that's my prayer. That's my goal as this course is used, that for each of you listening, each group, whoever that uses any of these courses, that it could be a blessing and an encouragement and an assistance to you.

Thank you, Craig. So yes, for those who are listening here, you can either go to the description here on the video and get a link to our website, or you can look at these books. We actually have some PDFs, partial PDFs of the book on the website. You can kind of look at it a little closer.

You can also call us. So our phone number here for Salt Books, which really is a strength of strength, is shipping these books for Salt. The phone number for us is 413-530-1320. That's 413-530-1320. Or you can email us at contact@saltbooks.org. And then also, the website is saltbooks.org. And you can order there, call us, get more information. We're happy to talk with you. So thanks for listening. And again, Craig, thanks for joining us. Thank you.