Salt & Light: Biblical Stewardship Course (interview 1)

This is Strength to Strength Bucks, and it's our goal to provide you with resources that will strengthen your obedient, love-faith relationship with King Jesus and give you solid footing in a shaky world. And today we're excited to have Clyde and Nelson with us. I'll introduce them to you right shortly, but they're with the SALT Microfinance Program from Christian Aid Ministries. And over the years, they've been developing a, um, a, a Bible-based stewardship financial course for us to use right here in North America. The SALT program works in other parts of the world, but this is for us right here. And so we're excited at S2S Books to be partnering with them. We're honored to bring this to market.

Um, and so this, this course will be, um, uh, this incredible course will be, uh, on, on, online at salt.books.org, where it's, we have a site dedicated just for this course, and there'll be an online store there where we'll host other educational media. Uh, and also at S2S Books will be printing and shipping, uh, this course. And this course comes in four different tracks.

Uh, this is the first one, Track A, um, and a description of this track goes like this: 12 foundational lessons with basic biblical financial teaching for neighbors and coworkers who struggle with chronic financial difficulties. I think there's around 400 pages, an incredible, um, book. That, that, that is the participant guide. There's also a facilitator guide. We won't get there right now. And then Track B, um, Sam has that right there. Um, Sam, thank you, Sam. Sam is getting ready to start a cafe in Calgary, Alberta. And so he has that, uh, particular, um, um, track because he's interested in seeing this particular track used for his employees in his cafe. And the description for that is six foundational lessons designed to reach out to middle-income neighbors and coworkers who desire financial teaching, but probably wouldn't attend a study at your church.

So that's Track B. And then Track C is this beautiful book right here. Um, and the description for that is five foundational lessons with biblical stewardship teaching for our Anabaptist churches, challenging and equipping us to better manage our resources. Do you think that's necessary? I think so. That's exciting. And then finally is Track D, and this is specifically for youth.

Not as thick, but again, some really, really solid lessons. And the description for that is five foundational lessons to help Anabaptist youth understand biblical stewardship and wrestle with life's difficult questions. And so we're, um, excited to introduce this, uh, course to you and these tracks, which that's gonna be Clyde and Nelson's job. I'm just gonna introduce them here before jumping in. Um, Clyde has worked in various roles in the SALT Microfinance Program since 2014 in developing countries. Today he is part of the SALT program leadership team and functions as an assistant director. When stateside, Clyde lives in Western Central PA in the city of Altoona with his wife of 35 years and their two youngest children.

They are part of the Altoona Mennonite Church. Clyde is one of the authors of the SALT and Light course. Clyde, it's good to have you here, um, part of this interview. And Clyde also is, is the author, one of the authors of these courses, or I'm sorry, of these tracks as well. Um, so that's, um, so he has a lot vested, invested in this. Um, all right, Nelson, Nelson Miller, thank you for joining us. Uh, Nelson comes to us from Florida, and, and he said not from Sarasota, um, but he comes from Florida. It must, you know, another part of, of Florida. That's great. Um, and in the past, Nelson worked as the country director of the SALT program in Ukraine for three and a half years.

Since moving stateside, he has been instrumental in using the stateside SALT and Light program in his prior home community in Tennessee, reaching out to those struggling with meaningful, with this meaningful teaching. He currently lives in Lake Butler, Florida, with his wife and three daughters. They're part of the Santa Fe Mennonite Church. Today, Nelson serves on the SALT and Light committee. Again, uh, welcome. Yeah, welcome here, Nelson and Clyde. It's, uh, exciting to be part of this interview. Um, at, at Strength to Strength, we're just honored to be, to be able to collaborate with you to bring this incredible teaching, um, to the Anabaptist communities. Okay, so what is this, um, maybe Clyde, or I'm not sure which one of you brothers, whoever wants to hear, what is the SALT program?

What, tell us a little about that, its purpose, and where does it operate today?

Yeah, thank you, Brother Ryan. It is an honor and a privilege to be here today and just dialogue together and learn together. Um, yeah, I've, the SALT program has, uh, been a fascinating journey in my life and, and just seeing God work in very, uh, different contexts. And I thought I might just share a few slides here on what the SALT program is and, and what our goals are here. So if that's okay, I'll do that now. That would be great. And, um, but yeah, um, just a few slides here. What is SALT? Um, and, you know, one of the things we did in, in the past is generated, uh, a single page that can communicate what SALT is.

And, and, you know, we are co-laborers. We don't always understand why God allows us to partner with him, but he does. And, um, so this idea of a tree, you know, there's, there's things below the ground that you can't see, uh, maybe call those root values or core values. And then there's this idea of leaves. Um, we're not the main event, but there's something for us to do. So in the, in the middle of the screen here is our mission, what we do. And we model and teach a biblical way of life. Um, and we help people discover sustainable ways to provide for their families. And maybe you think of those, that's maybe the leaves of the tree.

And then, but our long-term goal, or the fruit we desire, or, or the guiding star that we're actually aiming for is, is sustainable church communities demonstrating Jesus in daily life. And, and that is our model. Um, the tagline is Teaching Stewardship, Transforming Villages.

Um, that is, uh, our, the crux of who we are and what we do. But I want to just highlight the fruit we desire. And, and this is, this is a God thing. There's so much, uh, that is actually that, that we don't know and just cry out to God for direction and vision as we navigate this. And, and I personally have, have experienced and seen God work firsthand in different people groups around the world that are just a tremendous inspiration. But, um, so we're co-laborers with God in the SALT program. Um, you know, one of the things that sometimes is important to recognize, there are different needs. We focus on the poorest of the poor.

That's our, that's our goal. And, and what's a critical need and a chronic need? What's the difference? And, and not that one is more important than the other, but we can't be all things to all people. We have to focus on who we are and what we try to do. Um, and, and we focus on chronic poverty. We're talking about way of life, generational, that people are brilliant, made in the image of God with gifts, skills, and abilities, but they haven't had opportunity. So can we come alongside and help? And maybe just to talk about that a little bit more, critical needs, earthquakes, famines, hurricanes, war, political unrest, pandemics. The solution for that is relief.

And, and the Christian community should be known to be generous and have mercy and do all of that. But that's not the focus of the SALT program. Again, I don't want to minimize that. But on the other side of the equation might be chronic needs, learned dependency. And sadly, so much of us from the West have done that. That's, that's, uh, it's actually possible to do harm when we're, when we're walking with people. Uh, poor management skills, uh, unutilized resources, absence of good mentors, lack of startup capital. I just think of mentors. How many of us, uh, have, have uncles and elders and grandparents and parents and brothers in the church that, right, that we could wrestle through things with that so much of the world simply doesn't have?

And what the solution is, is opportunity and teaching. Um, so that's kind of who we are, what our core focus is, where are we operating? Um, we are in, I think, about 24 countries, 25 countries active, and another, I don't know, six or eight that are in various stages of startup. Uh, the dark, uh, countries there are, are the active programs. There's three, there's five additional restricted countries that I can't show on this map. Uh, three of those are in Asia and two in the Middle East. Um, and so, yeah, these are, um, just a lot of needs, but America is changing rapidly and there are so many needs. They're different, but there's so many needs all around us.

And I've been convicted in my own life where I just miss them. And, and, uh, what would, what would honor God as we walk with those in our own communities? So at a glance, um, there's 90, this is as of August 31st, 2024, but 96,517 SALT members worldwide in 24 countries.

Average weekly savings in savings group members is $2.18. Some places it's much, much less, like 20, 30 cents. And the, and these folks accumulate their own savings from their own money, and then they give loans to their own, own people. The average loan size is $168.43. And some places they're much, much smaller, you know, $10, $20.

And we track statistics a lot. And, uh, um, the three-month average of, of meeting attendance globally is 80.9%. Um, is how many people at, uh, are, are faithfully attending. There are five aspects of the SALT program. Micro loans is what we started with back in 2009. No longer a focus. Uh, we're actually only doing that in one country today. It's a little bit different need. Um, savings groups are teaching-based savings groups are very, very common. A great way to get access to communities, even access in restricted countries. Uh, and then AgroPlus, uh, is where we work with developing, uh, with farmers, smallholder farmers, five acres or less, and, and help them, uh, better provide for their families.

Subsistence farmers, that means they are planting to provide for their families, uh, rather than selling in the marketplace. And then vocational schools, uh, youth, uh, teaching a life skill, welding, automotive, sewing, tailoring, computer classes, things like that that gives opportunity. But today's focus is SALT and light, SALT and light. And that is a, as you mentioned in your, in your opening there, your introduction, this is a tool that is, is designed for our North American communities. It is being used in other places, being translated right now in the Middle East, uh, being adapted there. And there's other people that are interested as well. Ukraine, um, because of the war, people are very open to teaching there.

But SALT and light is designed for North America to reach out to our neighbors and, and our communities among us. So that's just a little bit of a introduction of who SALT is, um, and yeah, what we, uh, what we endeavor to do.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's, um, what a beautiful vision and a heart behind this. And I remember hearing you talk about this probably a few years ago on Strength to Strength. And it moved me and my wife at the time as well to hear, um, the heart for the, for the less fortunate. And, um, I love that you've developed a way to put tools in the hands of local churches that can reach out and lift up those that are around. Um, when did this program begin? And I think we heard a little bit of why it was developed, developed, but maybe you could speak to that a little bit more as well.

Yeah, the SALT and light, um, has been a developing burden and vision now for several years. Uh, I would think about 2015, 2016, we started doing R&D and development, started writing. I still remember those early days. And yeah, it, it's been a fascinating journey. It truly has. But, but speaking of, of the journey, um, one of the things that, that maybe I can share why SALT and light and, um, yeah, this, this idea of, of, uh, serving and taking care of those, uh, you know, different countries we operate, SALT has been reaching out to the developing poor for a long time. And why would I be showing a picture of an airplane? Um, you know, in the last 15 years of my life, I have spent an inordinate amount of time on these birds, that, that particular bird actually.

And, and, uh, it is, it is fascinating. Um, you know, as I, I've seen God work some amazing things in, in overseas, uh, environments, be all inspired about it. And I would come home and about the time that that plane is doing, I would get this sick feeling in my heart. I'm coming home and, and in my own community and, and I would say, what about my neighbors? Do I even know my neighbors? If they had a problem, would they reach out to me? And, and I got to the point where I almost felt like, wait a minute, am I even qualified to get on the plane if I'm not living this at home? And that is the heart cry of SALT and light is, is reaching out to those around us, uh, in meaningful ways.

I know in the city of Altoona, I have lived in West Central Pennsylvania my whole life. And, you know, it's a normal, I don't know, 50,000, 60,000 people there with the township around it. And, and that was just normal. That's Altoona. But, but the fact is there is tremendous suffering and pain all around. And we got little glimpses of it. We started, uh, in the very early days, we used someone else's course and piloted in our home community.

And this lady here, uh, we, uh, she said she wants to come to our course. We were doing it one evening a week in this winter. And she said she, she wants to come. And every week we called her and yep, yep, uh, she wants to come, but she can't come this time. Uh, but the next time she will. And all we had 12, 12 weeks that, that, that winter. She, that, that happened every, every time. She never did come that, that year. But, but that was the beginning of a relationship. And my wife and I reached out to her and, um, it developed into a, a long journey of, uh, so every winter we did this course in our community for, I don't know, five or six years.

And sometimes she came and eventually two years into it, I started reaching out to her husband. Um, and, and that one winter she came sometimes and he came other times, but we never got them both there at the same time. Tremendous pain and suffering in this couple's lives. And, uh, we tried for years to get them to our home. And, you know, so many things of life that, that's normal in our Anabaptist communities, taking care of chores and animals and getting eggs from the chickens rather than the grocery store. And there's so many things. It's just not normal. I remember one night they came and it was in August and, and we looked, it was after dark.

We just looked up at the stars and just talked about God and tremendous suffering. Eventually Bible studies happened for years. My wife and other sisters had Bible study with her. And, uh, she, I don't know, God's the perfect job. She may have been in the kingdom. For years we tried to get him to our home. And what finally broke to the, broke the ice is I asked him, he was a cook, uh, in a, in a restaurant. I said, would you make the burgers?

And that broke the ice. Because so many times we want to, we want to just provide everything and there's nothing for them to do. Uh, and so we had them in our home. I remember one time we actually, uh, you know, this is on the patio is definitely the way to do it. But at one point we had them, uh, sit at our kitchen table and had family-style meals. And they, they didn't, they weren't, they didn't know how to pass food. It wasn't normal for them, you know, like a bowl was being passed around. And, but yeah, just a journey. But this journey ended in a very, very sad way. Uh, our dear friend died from a, from a fentanyl drug overdose.

And they had no one. They had absolutely no one. Just very, very sad story. My point is this, there is just tremendous suffering all around us in broken relationships. People can hide debt and credit card debt for years in America.

And, and this lady's story is so sad. And Christianity, the name of Christianity was tarnished horribly. She was taken advantage of and abused by Christian professing pastors and just horrible stories. And, and can we actually demonstrate Christ to the people around us? And that's actually the heart cry of SALT and light.

Amazing. I remember, like I mentioned, we were inspired with the first time we heard you talk about it and we ordered the course and we never actually, so this would have been 2018, so fairly early days. Yeah. And I think at that time it was just one course because we got training videos and my wife and I were going through it. I think we went through most of the training. Um, but our, um, some things in life shifted and we didn't actually end up holding any of these courses in our home or offering it. But what, so it has the, the course has obviously evolved over time. And now as you, as you know, Brian brought out in the first part that there's four different tracks.

So it must have expanded considerably and, um, changed because I've gone through, you know, the, the earlier stage or earlier version, I should say, training. So, um, can you explain where the tracks came from and why the expansion?

Yeah, thank you, Sam. Um, you know, you know that when we, when we first introduced that first course, um, that was in December of 2018 when we released it. And, and we, we said, you know, can we go around to different Anabaptist communities and hold a couple of days seminar to kind of share the heart cry, what we're actually after and do some training. And we did eight of those seminars, uh, around the, the, the US, uh, from the south, east, and west and different places over several years. And, um, and you know, we actually charged for the seminar. There's people that traveled across the country. They spent time and money to come. So these folks are pretty serious.

You know, they, they actually wanted to reach out. And, and I could almost say, say it like this. I think there's a broad, uh, perception, broad, uh, thought among our communities that we're not doing enough. How can we actually do more in meaningful ways? But, you know, and, and you know, from my own perspective, I, if somebody has a program that helps me do this, where's the program? Can we just do that? And, but so we had people come and some of them were large groups of people, some small, but, but you could almost see them all encouraged, you know, we handed out the course material and kind of gave first evening, gave a little glimpse of where we're going.

This is amazing. Everybody's pumped and excited. And then by the end of the first day, you could almost see people deflate. And, and the reason is what we were actually teaching is the kingdom of God works through people and believers of followers of Christ. It doesn't work through a program. But courses and materials can be helpful in that journey. But what we're actually espousing is, is pretty costly to sell. And I, I feel it in my own life. Um, you know, we are very busy people and we tend to, um, you know, we value our time. And, and it's just, just what it is. So, and then we'd also get church leaders call us and say, you have something for our youth?

They're buying very expensive vehicles. And there's a lot of, uh, resources flowing to self that could be flowing to the kingdom. And we were like, no, our focus is reaching out, not within. And so eventually a vision started developing. We need to do something with this course to make it more user-friendly and, and more targeted to certain audiences to let people start somewhere on this journey. And, and so that then started us on a new journey of a number of years of, of developing these, these tracks or courses.

And, uh, there has been, it's been a, in some ways, uh, there has been very, uh, discouraging steps in this journey over the last three or four years and bring this course to this point. But God is faithful and when one door closed, he opened another door. And that's been an exciting journey in and of itself. But, um, yeah, just there are the four tracks, which Brian has explained. And maybe I'll get a little bit more detail later. But, um, this idea too of why a financial stewardship course, why finance? And, and you know, manage our money, managing our money is connected to most areas of our lives.

Um, there's situations where you'd be working with people and, and they'd be going down through the list of their expenditures and, and they'd look at each other. Does a person need cable TV? Mm - hmm. And, and what an opportunity to have conversations, you know? And so money gets into all areas of our lives.

And we're interested in a holistic approach. Jesus said in John 10:10, he came so that we could have life abundantly. And that's not just a save from hell gospel. That is a holistic gospel that brings, if, if someone is suffering and addicted and whatever, that's not holistic. So we have to meet people where there are. And finance is a beautiful way to do that. And Jesus said, where our heart is, where our treasure goes. So, so what's in here, where my money and time and resources flow is a clear picture of what's in here. It just does. And those are Jesus' words. They're true. And anyway, so, um, yeah, that then got us into these tracks and how do we, how do we do this?

And yeah, it's been a journey. So it's beautiful.

Yeah. Um, so one of the things that you've done, Clyde, um, as we've been talking about is develop these multiple tracks, right? As we've shown, um, which gives you the flexibility to tailor these courses to your participants. And I think that's the genius of this. Um, you know, when you're working with chronic need in Bangladesh, you know, in a village, you know, there's, it's, it's kind of had everyone kind of has the same need, right? And they're just trying to survive.

But you move into a North American context, more of a developed world, um, context, then it's so diverse. Uh, and it can be so complicated. What, how do I, you know, meet, you know, someone who has, who has poverty, right?

Uh, but it's, it's maybe isn't a physical poverty, but it's other kinds of poverty. And there's a quote I saw today that said this, simple ideas are easier to understand. Ideas that are easier to understand are repeatable. Ideas that are repeated change the world. And so you've developed, as I look at these tracks, you've tried to like, okay, so this is for this kind of, this kind of need. You've, you've, you've, you've, you've distilled it down, made it very focused, kind of these four different demographics. And so could you just kind of jump in a little bit and, and show us some of the course material, uh, within these tracks, kind of unpack that a little bit for our listeners so they can maybe say, ah, you know, that's, that's, that's that coworker, um, that I can sit with or that's my neighbor down the street.

So kind of unpack this a little bit more if you could, please. Sure. Yeah. The one thing that is, is unique about, as I've studied our own worldviews and culture, you know, it's fascinating. Unless you get outside your own culture, you don't even think about your own. But once you go somewhere else and you see, why, why do they do that? That doesn't make any sense. And you start asking questions, learning, well, it's always been that way. That's just the way it's done. And you know, all cultures organize a way of life. And, uh, so, so one thing that I find fascinating, we as a people group tend to, not always, but tend to want to gang up and let's go to some distant city and 20, 30 people go singing.

And I'm not against any of these things. These are all fine. But, but what we're actually talking about here is local, local outreach. And it's also a key distinction is as a way of life. It's not a program. Think of this course as simply a tool to help you do that. And the tool is not the main event. The main event is you, a follower of Jesus demonstrating. So local is key, is, is a key word here. And way of life is another one. And, and, uh, so yeah, just a, a few things as you have demonstrated or mentioned, there's, there's track A and B. And this is the heart cry of salt, a local outreach and, and its outreach is the key.

So track A, chronic need. It's, it's those that maybe aren't government assistance or, or have trouble making rent, payday loans, uh, things like that. It's chronic and, and it's been this way. And this has 12 foundational principles in it. And there's an additional 30 topics, uh, in the last, uh, portion of the book. And then, but many of our Anabaptist communities don't live in among people like this. Some do, but many don't. And the local community is track B. So, so this is people maybe divorce, remarriage, broken relationships, addictions, credit card debt, consumer debt. Uh, you can't tell at first glance, you know, the boats in the driveway and, and you know, the quads and the toys and whatever, but it's, it might all be consumer debt.

And it, it's a downward spiral is what ends up happening. That plays out in years in America. So this is all about outreach. And this is the heart cry of salt. But, you know, when we got those church leaders calling us, do you have something for our youth? And that's where we said, okay, we actually could be doing something. And this is actually not the main focus of salt. Salt is outreach, not within. There's other organizations that do that better.

And, you know, we have dialogued and partnered with other Anabaptist organizations, but this track C is a local church and it's stewardship, it's stewardship within. And why did Jesus say that? What does that mean? And how do I live that practically? Somebody that wants, but, but, uh, local church, it, it focuses on disparity. Why has God given so much to so few and so little to so many? And, you know, we didn't choose where we're going to be born. Um, so what would please God now? And so that, you know, it's, there's always a godly next step. There's always a godly next way forward. So that's track C designed for summer Bible schools, winter Bible schools, Bible study, midweek services, any of those scenarios.

And then track D is for young adults and that focuses on opportunity. Our youth have more opportunity today than maybe ever. They have, they have been caught, caught cause and effect. They know how to work. They, they, they have money, they have time, they can travel. The question is, where will those resources flow? And, and it's, it's a very positive approach and just plays it out. There's various interactions, but here's a graph, um, that explains a little bit how the course are laid out, foundational principles and additional topics. So this is an illustration of the, um, of, uh, the, uh, the track C. So chapter one is disparity. Chapter two is treasure. Uh, chapter three is goals.

Chapter four is obstacles. And chapter five is investor. So where am I? Where do I want to go? Those are the foundational principles in the front of the book. And then there's an additional 30 topics in the back. And how do I get there? Dozens of chapters on specific topics for your continued study. And they're designed for cherry picking. I'll show a little bit more on that in a moment. So track A, chronic needs, low income. Track B, local community, help reduce pain, struggling, probably not always obvious at first glance. You got to get close to people to see it. And then track C, local Anabaptist or kingdom church, focus on disparity. And then track D is our youth.

What an opportunity. And then these additional topics, there's actually more material here than in the foundational. Foundational is to get you started wherever you are, the people group you're working with. And then there's 30 in the back. They're all the same in every track. And those are, um, there's many topics. There's, uh, 15 A series chapters, study in any order, whatever you want, holistic, um, intentional or by default, habits, discipline, many topics. Then there's the B series, uh, money and marriage, harmony or division, children, foundations for the kingdom, youth for self or the kingdom. They focus on family. And then C is the golden years, the good life, service or self, um, healthcare, hospital decisions or your own until glory going on to your gone.

And then there's D series, uh, thinking about work and blessing or difficulty, pleasing God or man. And what's fascinating, sometimes I hear people say, yeah, he quit his job and went into full-time ministry. And I say, uh, wasn't his job a ministry? You know, work is a blessing. God did that in Genesis 2 before the fall, right?

Amen. So, and then finally there's business. And this subject, and it's near and dear to my heart, is thinking about business. I have regrets in business, uh, 30 some years in business, um, and known for absolute quality and meeting schedules. But I think about times that I totally missed it, a struggling employee, a difficult subcontractor. What's the purpose of business? I'll just conclude with this on the course design. Notice there's key words here that matter to us. A facilitator, not a teacher.

A participant, not a student. Hmm. I had poverty in my life. Maybe some spiritual poverty, um, maybe how I view resources. So we're actually learning and some of the poor around us or those that are struggling, we have a lot to learn from them. We don't have all the answers.

And it's participatory. It's participatory, not lecturing. It's dialogue, not monologue. And there's open-ended questions, thinking required. And the course generally does not give you a list of do's and don'ts, but it offers biblical principles, has stories, and then you decide where God is calling you.

Um, so this gives you a little bit bigger glimpse into the course and, and, um, yeah, the heart cry behind it. Sure. That makes me, um, want to pick up one of these, one of these tracks and, and get started.

Um, beautiful. I, I really appreciate how you have designed, um, these, these courses. Again, it's, you boiled a lot of, uh, complex things into simple ways of, of working, um, even to, yeah, to the idea of, of, uh, being a facilitator, you know, we're, we're learning together and these things are, I need to learn in as much as anyone else, right? Um, so I really like that. Um, also one quote that stood out to me too, um, Clyde, um, is, is the quote, so much to so little and so little to so much. So the idea of the disparity in our world and how there's so many riches and just a small part. I know that you're currently in Bangladesh, Clyde, and, and that's definitely a place where there's so little to so much, right?

And of course you're using salt there to help raise people out of poverty there. And that's a beautiful, uh, thing. And, and we had that opportunity to, to do that here, um, stateside with these, this salt and light course. Um, so a question I have for you, Clyde, is, um, you know, salt works with Anabaptist ministries in partnership with them. I know that, you know, you, you work with missions, with churches in these other parts of the world. And so, um, how, how is that done, you know, with, with this course, with these tracks? How, how, how are you interfacing with Anabaptist congregations?

Yeah, thank you for that. Um, you know, as I observe Anabaptist ministry, nonprofit landscape, um, sometimes I, I get a little sad. Mm-hmm. I wish there was more partnering and we are not, uh, in competition at all. We are, we're co-laborers. And, and to that end, in salt and light, um, there's, there's two areas that are, have been a huge blessing to us as we have wrestled and sometimes beat our head against the wall. How should this be? How can we do this in a meaningful way? The fact is tracks A and track B are who salt is. Track C and D is not our mission, actually. So we partner with, with Anabaptist Financial. They do biblical stewardship teaching and their focus is within, with our churches, the business communities and seminars.

And it's an organization I work with as a business advisor. And so trust is high and we have dialogued and said, is there a way that they could take tracks C and D to our people in, in more meaningful ways than maybe salt could ever do? And, uh, so they actually are doing this. They have ordered thousands of books and are actually taking this course and track C and D and actually using it in their deacon seminars, their business seminars and, and other ways. Um, so we're pretty excited about that to get, you know, there's, there's many people that are serious about the kingdom of God, but maybe haven't had a tool to, or ways to wrestle through it or think through it.

And the heart cry for salt is this. As, as they, uh, wrestle with these principles, the Holy Spirit calls and they respond that, that it was like, wait a minute, what about my neighbors? Oh yeah, we actually have tracks for that too, track A and B. And that's our heart cry from the beginning. But we, you know, we, we are only as powerful as what God does in our lives and how we're willing to respond to the, to his call in our lives. So, so we're pretty excited about the partnership with, with Anabaptist Financial and with you, with Strength to Strength books. It's, uh, it's been a beautiful thing that, that has come out of it.

And, and Strength to Strength is, is actually our fulfillment partner in this. Uh, done all the printing, the logistics and the fulfillment. And Strength to Strength has a very quick, uh, fulfillment and turnaround. Most orders, they ordered it in the morning, they shipped that same day and, um, have some good terms. If you order a certain amount, there's free shipping. So, and salt is not a fulfillment firm. That's not who we are. We are a teaching organization. So we desperately needed a partner in this journey. And, and we're really excited about, uh, Strength to Strength being willing to partner with us and, and, um, uh, and be co-laborers in this course. So, it's an honor, Clyde.

Yes, it is.

So it sounds like a very valuable resource and, uh, a very useful tool that can be brought to the table to reach out to our communities. Um, but many of us are uncomfortable with working with people who are, you know, at a different place in life than we are. Um, I know that that's something that God has done a lot of work on me on and in me, I should say, in looking at people not as less than or looking down on them because they're at different stations in life. But looking at, I love how you mentioned earlier going into it with the idea that we have, there's things from them that we can learn, that we are not, we're not here with a parcel to deliver to them, but that it's a, a, a journey that we are on together.

And we have been blessed with Jesus Christ and we would like to introduce them to him as well because it definitely makes the, the journey easier. Um, so, um, maybe there's some stories or something that, uh, you can share and that would show, you know, that could, could inspire someone to step out of their comfort zone and reach out to the community and, you know, get, get the course started in their community.

Brother Nelson, this seems like a good one for you. You have spent a lot of time and energy really inspiring accounts of reaching out in your community to people that are very different than maybe a typical Anabaptist church. So I think it's a good one for you. You said the right word, getting out of your comfort zone. In fact, uh, it has, it has come to the point where getting out of our comfort zone has actually become no problem or much easier.

But I still, I, I, I still need to do that every, every day. And so, uh, yes, we did this course about, I was, I was just looking at our, at our past there. I think it's around seven or eight times over the period of about three years. And, um, so we started as a team and that, that's, that's big. In a church, uh, we had, uh, a small board here and Julian and I, my Julian is my assistant. And so between us two, we did about seven or eight, eight courses. And so where the doors actually opened up were, uh, by just partnering with our, a local, um, help center, a local faith-based organization that reaches out with, uh, primarily critical needs.

And after discussing with their, um, administration, uh, their, their weekend was, uh, ministering to chronic needs. And so we actually invited them to participate in this course with us and some of our church people. And so that's where it started. And so the opportunities, the doors of opportunities open like everything. And so, um, I don't have enough time to share everything, but a few things, uh, I'm, I learned, uh, one is, um, this, this, this, uh, program, like Clyde said, is just an excellent platform, uh, for us to share about Jesus, what he has done in our life.

And I do not, now looking back after teaching about, teaching, facilitating, uh, these classes, it was not the program or the salt materials that really did it. Um, I could see it was, it was Jesus. It was what was God doing. And so one of the things that we, uh, encouraged ourselves and each other to do is put ourselves out as an example to share struggles. Our struggles are need. We all have needs, even habits that, that we have, um, eating too much, um, eating too much sugar, uh, coffee addictions. It could be anything we think that are good addictions, yet they struggle with drug addictions, with alcohol and, and a lot of other things.

And so when we put ourselves out as, hey, I have this need, uh, can you help me, uh, by praying, by, um, accountability, it opens up the door. And so our first, our first meetings were usually not even a lesson. It was just a meeting of sharing our stories. We would go around, everybody would be, um, asked to share their story or they would be allowed to. And, um, as we started sharing, I could just, I watched, um, actually as a facilitator, I probably spoke less than the others in those meetings, uh, because as we, as I watched them share, I could see connection and a light going on in another one of the participants.

And they could, they could, um, talk together and you could just feel this, this connection that was actually happening. And it was almost never that a meeting went past like that. There, there were not tears in that meeting and just an overall sense of, of, um, connection there. And so as we shared our stories, um, our habits, things would come out after a while, some of these meetings, not the first one, but usually after about four or five meetings, uh, things were shared that some of them wouldn't even share with their, their family or friends. Mm-hmm. And so this was a tremendous, uh, platform. And so that opened up to things like, um, financial, sharing financial difficulties, um, just on and on.

I mean, it was just incredible. Um, practical object lessons we used a lot. Um, we used chain things like chains, a big long chain to demonstrate, uh, bondage to, um, addictions. Uh, just, and all kinds of props we used. Uh, Clyde was extremely, uh, helpful in helping us, uh, through that as far as, uh, just his teaching that he gave us. That was incredible. Uh, I would still consider myself a student in this. In fact, here is the, uh, the participant guide I use. This is the old one. If you can see this, that's familiar with it. That's great. And, and, uh, yes, we did find, we did hear back from some of our students, students, um, participants, um, and also facilitators.

What we were using seemed kind of basic. And with other courses coming out, it's, it creates a lot of excitement and expectation. So yes, um, do you have any more questions? I don't know if I'm just rambling, but it's a good question. Yeah, that's, um, fantastic. Nelson, thanks for sharing that. So you said you, you connect with a help center, like in your community. So there's obviously people listening to this are, are thinking, and I'm thinking, um, how, like, what is that? Um, so could you give us a little more details of what, what that was? So maybe we could look for, for that type of institution in our community.

Well, in fact, I'm doing it the second turnaround now that we moved to Florida. Uh, that was the first thing I decided to do is just go visit a faith-based service center, help center. Almost every decent sized town or city has one. I'm discovering.

And so, um, what I did, while we go there as a team, we talked to the administration and then, uh, there's opportunities open for a service there. And so that's what we did. I volunteered. Like Clyde said, there's no shortcuts. Uh, give yourself your time. So I volunteered two, two days out of the week. It went down to one. Uh, but just working there with the staff, learning to understand what they're working with, who they're working with. I went out and saw the type of poverty you would not see in America typically. I saw people in houses, incredible filth, incredible living situations. It's just, it's just unbelievable that this still happens in America. And so as you build a, a relationship, a trust with the people there, it, it, it goes over into their clients.

And so when we partnered with them, we made an agreement that, that their clients would receive a specific amount of, of, uh, help. It could be financial, food, but, but then they would have to go through this specific course. And so then we would come in, uh, once a week, uh, hold, um, a class there about two hours, uh, a day. We could not get it shorter than two hours. It was just very difficult, but it was very good. And so that's where we did these courses. We would hold it in one of their rooms. And so that's what happened there. And now we're starting here. It's amazing. The very same thing is happening. We just, they just let me know that, that they do have a need for this type of materials in their, um, help center.

So we're, we're excited about starting down here. Is that like a drop-in center, um, for homeless people or is that what you're talking about? Help center, kind of a resource center. Yeah. It's a resource, uh, homeless. We deal a lot with homeless and those usually on the bottom, those that are struggling, barely able to make their electric payment. Mm-hmm. That's gotcha. So, so you would be using track A then it would be your, your, your, your track that you'd be using. Well, that's what we use because that's all we had. But I see track E as an, as a tremendous, um, uh, or a, a good opera, um, good option. Yeah, sure.