The host repeatedly says “God has brought us to today” and asks listeners to trust “how the Spirit guides us”; what does that assume about God’s timing and involvement in conversations about taboo topics, and how does that challenge the way your church plans (or avoids) hard discussions?

**Direct Answer** Based on the speaker’s framing, it assumes God actively appoints the right time for hard conversations and can personally meet listeners “right where we are,” even in sensitive topics. That challenges churches to stop delaying difficult discussions out of fear and instead plan them prayerfully, with humility, and with care for those who may be overwhelmed. **Support from Transcript:** • The host says the idea took “well over a year… maybe a year and a half,” yet she believes “God has brought us to today, and this is the time.” • She connects the event to God’s intention: “I feel like God has a special purpose.” • She says they’ll “see how the Lord leads, how the Spirit guides us,” especially in Q&A—implying God’s active involvement in real time. • She acknowledges limits: “There’s no way for us to be exhaustive,” suggesting dependence on God rather than perfect planning. • She warns the topic may be “triggering” and explicitly invites people to “step away,” showing a guided conversation should still be careful and pastoral. **Discussion Follow-ups** What “waiting for the right time” might actually be avoidance in your setting? What would it look like to plan har

Christina prays specifically for protection from “spiritual warfare” and says “Satan wants to chain us and bind us to these addictions”; how does that portrayal of the spiritual battle reshape (or distort) how we should view accountability, compassion, and personal responsibility in addiction?

**Direct Answer** The transcript portrays addiction as involving real spiritual opposition, which can deepen compassion and urgency to seek Christ’s freedom, not just “try harder.” But if taken alone, it could distort things by ignoring the clinical dynamics (brain, shame cycles, trauma) and turning accountability into blame or purely spiritual fixes. **Support from Transcript:** • Christina prays for protection: “protect them from the evil one and any spiritual warfare… because of this topic.” • She frames addiction as bondage: “Satan wants to chain us and bind us… I pray… You would break those chains.” • She prays for “freedom in Jesus Christ” and “a way forward,” implying spiritual hope is central. • Karen warns against “spiritualizing without even giving the clinical view the time of the day,” and says shaming/judging “wasn’t working.” • Janelle describes shame as “central in the cycle” and says shame “keeps the cycle going” and keeps people from admitting they’re “powerless.” • Both speakers emphasize complexity: addiction “stems from deeply rooted issues” and involves “brain circuits… genetics… environment.” **Discussion Follow-ups** How can your church name spiritual warfa

Janelle describes addicts at the soup kitchen as “unmasked… very little left to hide,” and says she learned “an addiction is not the sum of any person”; how would early Christians—who practiced confession, mutual care, and restoration—have treated people whose lives were “unmasked” in that way, and how does that compare to how modern churches handle “messy” people?

**Direct Answer** The transcript suggests a church shaped by Christ would treat “unmasked” people with love, presence, and long-term support rather than fear and avoidance, because addiction is only “part of” a person’s story. Compared to that, the speakers imply modern churches often respond with shame, judgment, and expecting quick change. **Support from Transcript:** • Janelle says people at the soup kitchen had “very little left to hide… unmasked,” and she “felt so at home.” • She learned “an addiction is not the sum of any person… it’s never the whole story,” and she learned “to love and not be afraid.” • Karen names harmful church patterns: “stigmatization… judging… shaming,” and says it brings her grief. • Janelle says Jesus “did not come to bring further weight of shame or hopelessness” to people “already bound up inside pain.” • Janelle lists what a healthier church would do: “be present with supportive words rather than condemnation,” “not expect people to recover alone,” and “help in long-term recovery.” • She adds that a main unmet need in addiction is “love and belonging,” and withholding that makes recovery “much bigger to climb.” **Discussion Follow-ups** Where do

Karen says Christians often give “oversimplistic answers” and that “shaming… wasn’t working”; where do you see your own instincts to prefer quick spiritual fixes, and what would it cost your group to admit that some problems “don’t have an oversimplistic answer”?

**Direct Answer** The transcript challenges the instinct to reduce addiction to simple sin-management, because that approach often leads to shame and fails to address “deeply rooted issues.” Admitting complexity may cost a group its comfort, quick fixes, and image of being “strong,” but it opens the door to real help and hope. **Support from Transcript:** • Karen observes “a different approach” in counseling than what she heard in church, highlighting a gap in understanding. • She names “the lack of education surrounding addictions” and says addiction “stems from deeply rooted issues.” • She explicitly says these issues “don’t have a… oversimplistic answer,” and notes Christians “tend to… oversimplify.” • Karen says “shaming… and maybe even judging” was not working. • Janelle echoes that fear and dishonesty in the church reduce compassion: “if we were more honest with ourselves, we would actually be more compassionate.” • Janelle says the church should “value the hard work” of change and “not expect it to be easy,” pointing to a longer, costlier process. **Discussion Follow-ups** What would your group have to change structurally (time, confidentiality, patience) to support long-t

Janelle contrasts a “biblical view” that can become “spiritual slavery… idolatry” with a clinical view involving “brain circuits… genetics… environment”; what do you lose—and what do you gain—when you interpret addiction mainly as sin/idolatry versus mainly as disease/compulsion?

**Direct Answer** Interpreting addiction mainly as sin/idolatry can highlight spiritual bondage and the need for God, but it can lose sight of the body/brain and lead to oversimplified, shame-driven responses. Interpreting it mainly as disease/compulsion can increase compassion and account for complexity, but it may underemphasize spiritual disconnection unless integrated with faith. **Support from Transcript:** • Janelle’s “biblical view” description: addiction as “spiritual slavery… a form of idolatry… displacing God,” stemming from “spiritual disconnection and unresolved soul issues.” • She notes this view may focus on “changing beliefs and behaviors” with “not so much attention to the body itself or how the brain is functioning.” • The clinical view is described as “compulsive behavior… persistent and even escalating patterns” done “in spite of negative consequences.” • Janelle adds clinical framing: “complex interactions among brain circuits and genetics and the environment and… life experiences.” • Karen cautions against only spiritualizing: church approaches can become “oversimplistic,” and “shaming… wasn’t working.” • Both suggest integration: conversations get “polarized,

Karen quotes Jay Stringer: “The more that I understand what the Bible says of sin, the more I understand the nature of addiction…”; what specific biblical teachings about sin (power, bondage, desire, deception, the flesh) help you understand addiction more accurately than a simple “stop doing it,” and what scientific insights might correct shallow theology?

**Direct Answer** The transcript points to biblical teaching that sin can function like bondage—doing what you hate and feeling powerless—which fits addiction better than “just stop.” It also highlights scientific insights about dopamine-driven brain changes and multifaceted causes (genetics, trauma, environment) that can correct shallow theology that relies on shame or willpower alone. **Support from Transcript:** • Karen cites Jay Stringer’s integration: understanding sin helps understand addiction, and understanding addiction helps understand sin. • Janelle’s “biblical view” includes “spiritual slavery… bondage” and “idolatry… dominating one’s life.” • Janelle references Romans 7: “The good that I want to do, I don’t do… The evil I don’t want to do, I keep doing,” and notes “powerlessness” and “war with our bodies.” • Clinically, Karen describes compulsive cycles that “flood the brain with dopamine,” “dysregulates the brain,” and slows the “prefrontal cortex” (logical thinking). • Janelle’s clinical definition includes “brain circuits… genetics… environment… life experiences,” resisting simplistic moral explanations. • Both explicitly critique shame-based approaches: Karen says

Janelle points to Romans 7 (“The good that I want to do, I don’t do…”) and says it names “powerlessness” and “war with our bodies”; how does that passage confront modern evangelical assumptions about victory, willpower, and immediate change after confession?

**Direct Answer** Based on Janelle’s use of Romans 7, the passage confronts the assumption that knowing the right thing and confessing once should produce immediate, effortless victory. It normalizes an ongoing “war” and highlights that hope is in Christ while change can still be difficult and embodied, not merely mental or spiritual. **Support from Transcript:** • Janelle quotes Romans 7: “The good that I want to do, I don’t do… The evil I don’t want to do, I keep doing.” • She says the passage includes “a sense of powerlessness,” showing the struggle is more than information or willpower. • She highlights “our bodies make it difficult to hold to the changes that our minds might want to make,” challenging purely cognitive/spiritual expectations. • She notes Romans 7 indicates “Jesus Christ, our Lord, is our hope,” yet “we might still continue to be at war with our bodies.” • Earlier she warns the church often expects someone “to never struggle again just because they had confessed one time.” • She calls the hard work of building “a new cycle of behavior” something the church should value. **Discussion Follow-ups** How do your expectations for “instant change” affect whether peop

Both speakers admit personal “addictions” (muffins/sugar; overdrive/work as a stress response) and describe addiction as self-soothing, numbing, or a stress response; what “comfort measures” in your life become hard to step away from, and what does that reveal about what you actually run to for safety, relief, or identity?

**Direct Answer** The transcript frames “comfort measures” as the places we go to soothe pain, stress, boredom, or shame, and the key warning sign is when they become “unhealthy or unmanageable.” Identifying your own hard-to-step-away-from habits can reveal what you rely on for comfort and coping when life feels overwhelming. **Support from Transcript:** • Janelle says addictions often function as “self-soothing behaviors” used when feeling “pain… discomfort… boredom.” • She notes a spectrum: some comfort is normal, but addiction is when it becomes “unhealthy or unmanageable.” • Her example: sugar/muffins—comfort through “taste… smell… touch,” and she finds it “very hard… to just eat one,” with craving increasing after eating. • Karen says addiction can be “a way to numb,” often “a stress response.” • Her example: being “very driven,” struggling to say no, and going into “overdrive when I’m stressed,” which becomes unhealthy when it’s her main coping method. • Jameela’s reflection on her phone buzzing suggests technology can become a subtle pull tied to stress and validation. **Discussion Follow-ups** When you reach for your “comfort measure,” what feeling are you trying to escap

S2S Sisters: Bonus Talk: "A Hope-Filled Conversation on Addictions" by Janelle Glick & Karen Peachey

1,962 views • Dec 3, 2025

Description

November 22, 2025

Strength to Strength Sisters welcomed Janelle Glick & Karen Peachey on this off-schedule meeting to join a panel discussion on breaking addictions.

An interactive question-and-answer period follows.

https://strengthtostrength.org/a-hope-filled-conversation-on-addictions/

🎧 Audio Player with Transcript

🎧 S2S Sisters: Bonus Talk: "A Hope-Filled Conversation on Addictions" by Janelle Glick & Karen Peachey

Our prayer is that you will be filled with the knowledge of His will, strengthened with all might according to His glorious power. Well, welcome everyone, and we're so happy to have you all here to join us for this special conversation today.

I was going to look before we started to see when we actually started discussing our dreams and our hopes as an Admin team to have a conversation like this, and it's taken, I'll say, more than months. It's actually been probably well over a year, maybe a year and a half, but I really believe that God has brought us to today, and this is the time, and I feel like God has a special purpose. Our intent today is to raise awareness with the hope of bringing, um, hope to those of you who may have a special interest in this topic for whatever reason. You know, there's no way for us to be exhaustive, right? We can't talk about every facet.

We can't talk about every angle, but I hope we can at least start a conversation that can continue in your homes and in your communities and churches.

This is not an intent to replace any type of therapeutic advice you may be needing, and we do plan to have a time. If we have time at the end, we'll have a Q&A where you can share your questions.

The way you'll be sharing your questions today, just because it may be a bit of a more of a sensitive topic, is that you can click on the chat button on the bottom of your screen, and you'll go into a screen and it will say, uh, start a new chat, and you can send your questions to Christina. She is our co-host and joining me today. Send any of your questions to Christina, and we'll see. We'll see how the Lord leads, how the Spirit guides us, and what we have time for. I also want to remember to highlight at the start and not overlook the reality that this material may be triggering for some.

And so I want to invite you that you're all welcome to stay wherever you may be in your journey, but if at any time this material becomes overwhelming, then you're also welcome to step away if you need to and come back and join us or whatever it is. You know, we really want, um, God's Spirit to be with us today, but we want everyone to feel cared for. So whatever is most supportive, you can go ahead and feel free.

So I have a lot of questions about this subject. So our format for our discussion today is going to be a conversation where I'm going to be asking questions from Janelle Glick to Janelle Glick and Karen Peachy. They have consented to join us for this conversation, and after a bit, I'll let them talk to you and tell you a little bit about their heart and why they're here today.

You know, the Bible says the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses, for we don't know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us. So, you know, I don't know, and our speakers today don't know what everyone's needs or desires or even what you want to hear today, but I'm fully confident that God can meet each of us right where we are, and I'm so grateful for that.

Christina, do you want to lead us in prayer before we go any further? Yes, I would love to. Let's pray. Dear Heavenly Father, we thank You for this day and this opportunity to be on this call together and those that are listening in the future. Um, Lord, I'd like to lift up Janelle Glick, Karen Peachy, and Jameela Kurtz. Heavenly Father, I thank You that they're willing to talk about this subject that's very sensitive. I pray, Heavenly Father, that You would protect them from the evil one and any spiritual warfare that might happen because of, um, this topic. We know that Satan wants to chain us and bind us to these two addictions, and I pray, Father, that You would break those chains, that these sisters on this call listening today and in the future would find freedom in Jesus Christ.

Lord, I pray that these words that these sisters speak are powerful and moving and are from You, and that they would touch many people's lives. Please give, um, sisters hope and encouragement and, um, just a way forward. I pray, Heavenly Father, that Your name would be glorified in all this because that's the meaning of our life and the purpose of this call. Thank You for this technology we have. I pray that it would all go well, and thank You, Lord Jesus, for Your perfect life. Help us to walk the way that You did. These things I pray in the name of Jesus. Amen.

Amen. Thank you so much, Christina. So Janelle and Karen, I'd like to welcome you today especially, and you know, I was just thinking about how we've, you know, we've, uh, dialogued, we've conversed about this topic, and now we're here. So first of all, I thought, you know, just so we can kind of feel present to each other and, and everyone listening, I thought maybe you could each tell us, like, just tell us an emotion you're feeling right now. Janelle, do you want to go first?

Well, I need, I need another word, Jameela, because I have two. So what's the emotion that combines nervousness and excitement? What's that? What is that? Yeah, like hesitation, right? I don't know. Yeah, the nervousness piece. Yeah, I think it's a beautiful... Anyway, I'll stop there for now. Okay.

Karen. Yeah, the word anticipation came to my mind, and I share Janelle's emotions as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's great. When you said that between nervousness and excitement, I thought about butterflies, but that's not an emotion. But, you know, I have to admit, I have a few in my own stomach, but you know what? Um, like I said, God is with us, right? And it's okay.

Um, and so before we just launch into my questions, I thought Janelle and Karen, I'd love if you could each just tell us a little bit about yourself. Do you want to start, Karen? Just a few moments. Sure. Um, I'm Karen Peachy. I'm from Belleville, Pennsylvania, like Central Pennsylvania.

Um, my background entails being a nurse. I taught at Penn State Nursing. Um, and then also my journey has led to becoming a licensed counselor. Um, so I'm currently working in private practice called Journey to Hope. Um, and last year I completed my PhD in counseling and psychological studies. I enjoy research. Um, so that's a little bit of background about myself. Um, yeah, come from a large family. Um, enjoy traveling, meeting people. I like coffee. Great.

Mm-hmm.

Janelle.

Um, what I wrote down for this was that I was first a teacher, and then I became a mom, and then I studied in spiritual care and psychotherapy, um, receiving two master's degrees in those fields. I'm not at this point a licensed, uh, counselor. Um, maybe in my future, but it's not, it's not fitting at this time. And so instead, I do online coaching where I get to use a lot of what I learned, but I, um, keep within the coaching model and, and not so much into, um, therapeutic models.

Um, in all three of these things, I care most about meeting the other person in the present moment, um, seeing and hearing and loving people, not as I wish them to be, but as they actually are. Care a lot about the moment and who we are in the present.

Wow, thank you both for that. And I should say, for my, just for the purposes of those who, uh, may be joining us for the first time, my name is Jameela Kurtz, and I am joining you from Kenya. I know Karen and Janelle are both in Pennsylvania, and so I think their time is a little bit after three. My time in Kenya is a little bit after 11 p.m.

So if any of you have any spare prayers, you can pray that I stay coherent and alert, but I don't think, um, it'll be too difficult with having these two lovely ladies to converse. You know, like in a perfect world, I would just be able to sit at a table with Karen and Janelle, and Karen would have her coffee. I don't know what Janelle's choice of drink would be. Mine might be water or a lemonade, but you know, we could just sit together. And so let's just imagine all of us that that's what we're doing, right? We're just having a conversation. And you know what? I love what Janelle said, how we're just here in a moment where we are.

So we all can jump in. Don't feel like you're too unlearned because there's no one who is. You know, we're just all learning together today. And so let's just start off with my first question. And, um, Janelle, maybe you want to answer this one first, but I was wondering, can you tell us what drew you to this study of addictions?

Uh, yes. My first memory went to when I was, I think, starting at the age of 16 to 18. Um, I had the opportunity to, um, serve and volunteer weekly at a homeless, um, soup kitchen, like a soup kitchen for homeless people in our nearby city. And I still, I still can't explain all of this, but I felt so at home, um, with people there. Um, they, they were, they are direct ways of communicating, um, the fact that they had very little left to hide. They were, they were unmasked in many ways, and I think that's some of why I felt so at home with them. But in that setting, at a pretty young age, I learned that, um, an addiction is not the sum of any person and our stories.

Like it, it will be a part of people's lives and their stories, but it's never the whole story. And I learned to love and not be afraid of people who were suffering with addictions and heard the broken stories behind the addiction. So when I started studying at university, um, beginning with, um, two classes in addiction seemed like a familiar place to begin.

So I think it was experience first and realizing, um, that love can still exist even there and not be afraid. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Karen, I'd love to hear from you. Sure. So one of the reasons that I got into studying addictions, really it started when I was taking classes to work as a counselor.

Um, and, and there was definitely a different approach of, um, I'm going to say that there was a different approach from what I was hearing from church, um, or even maybe from Christians. Um, and, and really what got me into it even more is kind of a, I'm going to say the lack of education surrounding addictions and realizing that addictions, like so many other issues, it really stems from deeply rooted issues. And these deeply rooted issues don't have a, what I call, oversimplistic answer. And, and that is kind of the tendency maybe as Christians, we oversimplify or we give, um, simplified answers to a really difficult, uh, issue.

Um, another thing I realized regarding addictions, um, that really wasn't working, and that is shaming, um, and maybe even judging. Um, I, I love the title, Jameela, that this is a conversation that, that offers hope. And that is, um, what I would like to offer.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, yeah, that really impressed me because I heard both of you saying that what drew you to this study wasn't necessarily like this, like clinical, um, textbook that you read. It's what you experienced and what you saw. And that's really beautiful. Um, and I maybe I should just say here, just for the purposes of our conversation, that, you know, there's a lot of different ways we could be unfolding this topic.

And so obviously, Karen and Janelle are both bringing what they have to offer. And so, like Karen said, the language may be different than if we were maybe, um, just having a church service. But I think there's so much that we can learn. And so, you know, I am a very curious person, and I love definitions, right? I love definitions and even word pictures, but I love to be able to, like, really get a hold of what a word means.

So I'm thinking Karen and then Janelle, I'd love to hear what your clinical view of addiction is like. If just somebody asked you, what's the clinical view of the word addiction?

Sure. So clinical view of addiction, a lot of times it's, it's explained as a compulsive behavior. And oftentimes it is, uh, characterized by persistent and even escalating patterns of, of focus and whatever the addiction is, whether it's drug and alcohol, whether it's sexual addictions. Uh, the focus is, you know, on that. It can be thought and behaviors. And then also these behaviors are usually carried out in spite of negative consequences to the individual themselves or even others.

Mm-hmm. Do you have anything you want to add to that, Janelle?

Um, I don't, I'm sure that was excellent. I'm looking to see if I have anything to add. Um, it sounds very much like what I have here. This one, this would be one that I pulled off another source. Addiction is a treatable and chronic medical disease involving complex interactions among brain circuits and genetics and the environment and an individual's life experiences. So you can hear there the, the multifaceted understanding of what's all involved. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So now I'm really wondering, and maybe I'll start with you, Janelle. So what would you say is a biblical view of addiction?

Hmm. Um, I'm going to read what I've written. It's just much more succinct than I can be. Um, the biblical view sees addiction as a more spiritual slavery, maybe a form of idolatry, where a substance or behavior becomes an idol dominating one's life and displacing God. It's viewed more as a manifestation of a spiritual illness and bondage, um, and stemming from spiritual disconnection and unresolved soul issues.

Change is understood to come primarily out of changing beliefs and behaviors and maybe not, not so much attention to the body itself or how the brain is functioning.

Okay. Karen, do you have anything you want to add to that? Yeah.

It feels kind of like my, yeah, I wasn't quite sure where to go with the biblical view of addiction, quite like how to explain that, but I, I, I like what Janelle says. Um, and then also I, I really think it's, it's foundational before we can maybe even talk about the biblical, the, what the so-called biblical view of addiction. And, and I just feel like there are some truths that are imperative for us to embrace. And, and I'm looking at this from sexual addictions. Mm-hmm. Um, in Genesis 1:27, you know, so God created man in his own image. In the image of God, he created him. Male and female, he created them. So, so as women, God created us female.

Um, and, and he created us as, as sexual beings. And your sexuality really embodies your desire for intimacy and also for relationships. And then as ladies are physical sexuality, and, and maybe this is also could kind of be added, uh, I guess we could say this is a clinical view too, but, you know, really, or a physical, like our sexuality includes ovaries, fallopian tubes, a uterus, um, giving birth, breastfeeding, menstrual cycles, menopause. Like these are all a part of female sexuality.

And as, as Bible-believing Christians, if, if we're going to store our sexuality, we, we really need to embrace our God-given sexuality. And, you know, embracing our God-given sexuality frees us to embrace all of who God created us, us to be.

And I, I, I really think our view of sexuality directly correlates to our beliefs about who we are and who God is. And so, you know, maybe the question might be asked sometime is, is addiction, is, is it addiction or is it sin? And, and Janelle explained how maybe the biblical view sometimes is kind of we, we spiritualize addiction and we focus on the behavior only. Um, and I guess my question is, as Christians, how effective have we been in our churches by focusing only on what is wrong with us or, or sin?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot to, like, to really process and think about. So now I'm led to this question as you both gave these two different definitions, like, you know, the clinical definition and the biblical definition. So like, do you think they differ?

I wonder, Janelle, what do you think? You used a lot of different words, but. Right. Yes. Um, so you can hear that probably for me, um, I have concern about how sometimes the biblical, like if it's strictly biblical, um, voices, I guess, from more that side of things who maybe aren't interested in the clinical understanding of it, um, I think that it can be very different. Like there can be this, our conversations can get too, um, polarized. That's one thing I would say. Like I think there's ways that they can, um, I think there's ways that we should look at both ideas and, and find ourselves being able to access understanding from both. Um, and I think you have an upcoming question that alludes to that.

But yes, my experience of conversations, even in the counseling world, is that the conversations sound quite different depending if someone is, is working in a clinical model or in a biblical one. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So what have you experienced, Karen? Have you found that too, that, you know, you find that the language, the wording, the direction of the conversations can differ depending on if you're looking at it clinically or biblically?

Sure. Absolutely. Um, and, and maybe sometimes the tendency is to fall on one side of the ditch or the other. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I believe the clinical view and the biblical view, I, I believe they overlap. Um, and Jay Stringer in his book, um, Unwanted, that's how sexual brokenness kind of reveals our healing path.

He, um, he, he said, you know, he believes that, um, that a model for addiction should be that, you know, it, it integrates sin and addiction. And then he just goes on, and I'm quoting from him, he's saying, "The more that I understand what the Bible says of sin, the more I understand the nature of addiction. And the more I understand what science reveals about addiction, the more I understand the nature of sin."

Mm-hmm. Janelle, what overlap have you found?

Um, let's see, what did I say here? I think that the overlap is the agreement of the, of what we see in the moment. Like that in the moment we see that someone is struggling with a dependency on a substance or activity, um, that's very harmful to them. And so there's often, there's agreement about the, the care of the thing that's happening. Like people will agree that this is, that we want to help and that, that, that help is needed.

Um, I actually thought about that passage in Romans 7, uh, 19 to 21, where the author's saying, "The good that I want to do, I don't do. The evil I don't want to do, I keep doing." I see some overlap even in those verses of an understanding that this is not, this is not just about what we know to do, but that there are other things at play. In fact, he goes on to, like there's language of a sense of powerlessness and an acknowledgement that our bodies make it difficult to hold to the changes that our minds might want to make. And the passage indicates that Jesus Christ, our Lord, is our hope, but that we can, even with that hope, we might still continue to be at war with our bodies.

Mm-hmm. Um, so that's an interesting passage to me in terms of overlap, right? Because I think there's, there's hints there about, um, about the body being very involved in this and not only the will and not only the, not only the spiritual.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. And you know, I thought maybe we should have had a third question. I should, I should ask this, but I think I'll hold it, but it's just in my mind, I'm thinking to myself when we say the biblical, now I'm not at all, we know that we're not sitting here saying we don't believe the Bible, but I think that's more what is handled by religious people who are using biblical language, right? So I, I had this thought now, what is God's view? Mm-hmm. But I think I'm going to hold that. I'm going to go on to our next question. Maybe we might come back to that. May I, may I show you one image too yet, Jamila?

Yes. Sorry. Yes. Like in an image like this, which is a clinical image, the understanding of the wheel of change. Mm-hmm. I don't know if people can see that. Um, but like the steps in addiction, like pre-contemplation and then contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance, um, and relapse and kind of how we go around that circle. There's a lot of correlations to scripture language around, around confession, like the life of a believer and confession that can be, um, seen in, in light of that cycle too. So that's one other example I did bring in terms of like. Yes. Is that we can overlap our understanding. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I like that. Thank you. Um, did you have anything else, Karen, that you wanted to share?

Um, maybe I'll just add another question, something to think about. What if we don't need to pit the clinical view and the, and the biblical view against each other? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there are some great authors who are starting to be able to do that, right? Some books that we can recommend later. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really like that because that was kind of my, what I was coming to with those questions. And that's what I was wondering. Like we might say, okay, these two different views are opposing, but really I don't think they are. I think they just bring a greater whole of understanding for us, obviously, and, um, the ways we can just bring compassion and understanding to people around us.

Mm-hmm. That's, that's one thought I had. I don't know. Did you have more? Maybe they're only opposing if we're really dismissive of the other. Right. Like it's when we dismiss the one side and we kind of hunker down in just one. Right. That, then we do feel opposite to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Did you have an answer to your question, Karen?

Well, you know, God created us body, soul, and spirit. And, and you know, our choices, our behaviors, our actions, they really do impact all three of those. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So true. And it's like you can't separate it. You can't separate it, right? Yeah. So, you know, I have another question that I think, like, I want to just bring myself into this discussion.

Um, and I don't want to just be thinking, oh, this is like somebody for somebody else. So one big question I have is, do we all have addictions? I wonder what you'd say to that, Janelle. Hmm. Well, part of, part of what addictions are is like self-soothing behaviors, right? Well, so it's this idea of when I'm feeling pain and I, or like pain or discomfort or even something like boredom will be discomforting for people. So when I am feeling that, that, um, then it's easy to self-medicate with something, a favorite activity or substance. So on one hand, yes, we, we all have things we turn to as a comforting measure. And at some level, that's good, right?

Like at some level, it is good to know what can be part of, um, part of taking care of our bodies. Um, then, but then on the spectrum, it's when it becomes unhealthy or unmanageable. That's a really important part of when we're talking about addictions. So yes, I think if we're talking about self-soothing and sometimes things that we have a hard time stepping away from, um, absolutely.

Um, I was, I was writing about mine. Um, when I was in a university course on addictions, we were asked to delay gratification in some way to a substance or activity that we tend to turn to. And the goal of this activity is to, is to develop compassion, to understand that change is hard, even on a small scale, and especially around the things that are, are that we've turned to for comfort.

Um, so I don't know what would have been on everybody else's list here today, but for me, it was sugar, and it still is, particularly in the form of muffins. So eating a muffin for me, it comforts me through the taste, but also the smell of it baking and even touch, like the texture, the fact that it's soft and it just kind of melts away in my mouth. Um, it's easy, right? It's just easy. Almost I can inhale muffins.

Um, it relaxes me. If, but see, here's the thing. If I make muffins for my family, I might end up eating most of them. And it's also very hard for me to just eat one, right? Like it eating one and having that experience doesn't necessarily, um, take away the desire for another one. So it's, it's that feeling maybe of an inability to stop in some small way, even if I'm full.

Um, so yes. So maybe I'm, I guess I'm saying at some level I have some, some craving for, it's a craving for sugar. And when the experience of having it already heightens the craving for more rather than like sating that desire and having enough, then we start to look at saying, wow, is this an addiction? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karen, I'd love to hear what you would add to that. And maybe you have a personal confession too. Yeah. I like what Janelle said. It really is, you know, a way to self-soothe. Um, might even be a way to numb. Um, a lot of times, you know, it, it really is a stress response.

Um, one of my addictions classes, I was required to, or the whole class was required to process an addiction. So I think the professor would have said we all have addictions. And, um, I, I was like, okay, I can do maybe caffeine and like coffee or sugar, like, uh, Janelle mentioned, but I decided I'm going to do something that I hadn't really processed at that time. And I tend to be a very driven person, have a hard time even saying no.

Um, but going through that assignment, it was a really, I want to say eye-opening, um, activity for me to do. And, and one of my stress responses is to just go in overdrive when I'm stressed. So it's not bad to work hard, but when that becomes my way to cope, then that can be unhealthy.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really like that. You just made that like very understandable. And I was, as I was listening to you, my phone is sitting here beside me going off. And I had to think that, you know, like you talked about that stress response and how sometimes, you know, yeah, for me, I think it's like, oh, yeah, somebody's reaching out to me and, you know, what is that saying about me?

Yeah. So I, I like that, you know, we probably, we all have our reality that we have to face. And so, you know, I know that both of you in your work, you care deeply and you've been, you know, a lot of people have reached out to you.

That you've offered support and. Doctor communities and even churches and their responses. So I have a question. I'm just wondering, like as you've, um, walked alongside those who you care deeply about and who you know needed help, how has the church's response brought you grief?

Karen, do you want to start? Sure. I'm going to make this specific to sexual addictions. Mm-hmm. And even like specifically sexual addictions in women. Um, the church's response of, I want to say maybe misunderstanding, uh, the stigmatization that happens or even spiritualizing without even giving the clinical view, the time of the day, so to speak, the judging, and then even the shaming really brings, brings me a lot of grief.

Um, and the messages of purity culture, and maybe I'll just define that a little bit, um, where purity culture really, it's, it's a, um, collection of teachings that are shame-inducing teachings around sexuality. Um, and they rose to popularity among Christians in the 1990s.

Um, the message that they give is that premarital sex is the worst possible thing you could do. Um, engaging in sex before married, you are labeled as damaged goods. Um, that the female body is really a dangerous weapon.

And also because the body is sinful and cannot be trusted with sexual temptations, the teaching is marriage is the ultimate goal for Christians. Um, they also teach that immodestly dressed women are the cause of impure thoughts in men. Um, the wife is supposed to be her husband's sexual gatekeeper.

And even though go as far as saying, um, marital rape, a woman being raped in, in the marriage and a man or a husband being involved in pornography happened because the man is not getting his sexual needs met.

And, and so this, these messages bring me a lot of grief. Um, and another thing that brings me a lot of grief is a lot of times when it comes to these topics, women's voices a lot of times they're silenced. Um, and, and there again, they're blamed because their husband or maybe the men in their lives have a sex addiction.

So yeah, all of that to say, um, that brings me a lot of grief. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Janelle, I'm wondering what you would add to this question. Yes. Well, I agree with Karen, like lots of grief around the formation of some of our understanding about our bodies and about, um, and about what equals purity and how much, how these things are talked about, I guess. And, and this idea that women's voices are missing often from these teachings, like that we're, we're hearing things, but our voices are missing from that conversation about ourselves. It's hard, it's hard for women to speak up and, um, to respond to those messages with their own experiences and to be believed.

Yeah. That's still quite difficult for a lot of us. Um, I believe that Jesus was pretty clear in his time of ministry here that we have recorded in scripture that he did not come to bring further weight of shame or hopelessness to people already bound up inside pain.

I think if we're honest with ourselves, we all have tendencies to addictions in some area. And as a church, if we were more honest with ourselves, we would actually be more compassionate with other people. Um, I think that some of our fear and that feeling of threat for us around this subject is because we're afraid to be honest with ourselves.

We would not, we would stop expecting someone to never struggle again just because they had confessed one time. We would value the hard work that it takes to stop one cycle of behavior and build a new one. We would be present with supportive words rather than condemnation. We would not expect people to recover alone. We would not expect it to be easy, and we would help in long-term recovery. We would remember that Jesus is actually very present in brokenness. He's not separate from it. He's actually much more separated from self-righteousness, but never from brokenness.

And one of the main unmet needs inside of most addictions is love and belonging. And so when we are not offering that in our churches, we are making the mountain of recovery much bigger to climb. And so wherever that's happening, I feel a lot of grief.

Yeah. I heard you saying that honesty brings compassion, and it just brings it back again. I just think so much about me, fear of being afraid to look at myself that, like you said, makes us want to ostracize.

We've heard your grief, and now I know that as you are, you know, walking with people, you're seeing things that bring you hope and joy. And so I'd love to hear that. Maybe Janelle, you want to start with this one. What brings you hope and joy as you look at the churches and you see the church's response to addictions?

Um, well, wherever we demonstrate God's love, like wherever we set fear aside and we stay present, I feel a lot of joy when I hear stories of that. And some, I do hear those stories. I hear stories of people in churches where leadership is staying present and uncondemning, and they're finding support within the congregation for people. And so that is happening too. That gives me so much joy.

Um, I also felt great joy when I visited a church-based recovery program called Celebrate Recovery. I don't know if this is familiar to any of our listeners here, but I'll just tell you what I noticed there. And even if we're not running the program in our churches, I think there's a lot about what I heard there that's instructive. Um, it was hosted every week without fail in a local church context, and I'm sure there are programs like this around you all. Um, they met every week without fail, even if it landed on Christmas. People in recovery gather to sing and worship God in, in languages of lament and praise and confession and emotional honesty. And following worship, someone will share their testimony, um, of recovery, and they will begin by saying, "Hi, my name is, I'm a grateful believer in Jesus and I struggle with."

So like there's that, there's that, um, both and element. I'm a believer in Jesus and I have a struggle with. And after group time, small groups meet and everyone's invited to share, but no one in the circle is a caregiver.

All are equal in their identity in Christ and in admitting to their own struggles, and everyone there is to do their own work in honesty and accountability. There's a, there's a lot about that model that's really lovely. Um, more current to our Anabaptist churches, I realized I, I do see that people are being more honest with their struggles. And more of us are also saying we want to help.

Um, I think that more, more and more people are, are what willing to walk with people and understand, um, the complexity of the process without simple answers. Um, I also feel hope when I hear our people making choices that are pushing back on technology and understanding how it's changing us and why we need to be really taking a look at that as well. And I can say more about that later if it comes up.

Yeah. Karen, what would you like to add? Sure. I, I, um, can just echo what Janelle says. You know, I like starting a conversation like this on this platform brings me hope. It also brings me joy. Um, I'm excited about the conversations that are starting. Um, and I'm also excited about having these conversations without it needing to be rooted in shame.

So, so that, that brings me a lot of joy. And then also I do see a pretty big shift than maybe even 20 years ago, but parents are teaching their children and, you know, really they're, they're teaching their children at a young age and they're having ongoing conversations. Um, that to me is, yeah, brings me a lot of joy and something that, that, um, also offers hope. Um, and Janelle mentioned a little bit, I think about the technology, but having an awareness of what technology does, but then also teaching your children.

Um, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That was really beautiful. I love what both of you, um, shared. And I just, the thought of setting fear aside, setting fear aside and just being willing to have the conversations in our homes and in our churches without shame.

That's exciting to me too. And so thank you again for both of you for being here with us today to be able to have this conversation. You know, we were kind of taking, I think, a big picture look. You know, we looked at what addictions are. We looked at the church's response. And now I'd like to come a little bit closer. So I know, like I said, you've, um, you've seen a lot. I know both of you have. And so I wonder, you know, what are some of the underlying issues that you have seen that you believe are contributing to addictions? And maybe are they, and maybe another question is, is it different than it was 20 years ago?

But whatever you have to offer to that, um, Janelle, do you want to start?

Uh, sure. Um, okay. So when I think about contributing issues, um, I just want to say I can't speak much to this and I don't know that we're doing this here today, but there are studies that are done that do show that there's, there are genetic factors involved also, just in some of us are more prone, um, to addictions than others. I haven't looked and looked deep into the studies, but want to name that. Um, but what I jotted down as what I would hear commonly as underlying issues is that there is, there's often attachment, um, needs inside of people who are, who are, who are deep into addictions. And they, we know that attachment needs, they begin, they can begin early in our lives.

And so it can be hard to track down those stories. But there's usually a, there, it's about a coping behavior. So I think Karen mentioned this earlier. Sometimes it's a need to escape something. So it's a numbing. Um, the goal of the addiction is to, to numb or escape or bring relief. Um, but sometimes opposite to that, it can also be a need to feel. And I, I don't know what Karen would say about this, but as I understand it, sometimes that's more where sexual addiction comes in, is that that's actually a, a, a body that has been numbed and has a desire to feel something pleasurable or calming, um, or maybe even powerful. And so it's sometimes there's stories, stories of sexual abuse in the background of sexual addiction because it's, it's the person choosing a way to feel something rather than being forced to feel something.

Um, so that can sometimes be in the background. So common risk factors for addictions, this is just from looking at research, risk factors can include genetics, um, early exposure or abuse, childhood trauma, any co-occurring mental health conditions, and environmental factors like peer pressure or easy access to substances.

Um, and I think that's out of that conversation where my, my growing concern is about, I don't think we understood when we took on cell phone, like especially, um, especially smartphones. I don't think we understood when we took that in, um, how much we were actually setting ourselves up to have the environmental, um, easy access to something highly addictive and exposing young people to it at a really young age. So when I, when I see those descriptions, I think, I think this is where we're, I think this is where we're getting swamped.

Um, and I, I'm going to let Karen talk now. I have more on that, but I'd love to hear, maybe hear her join me. She doesn't mind.

Sure. Um, one thing I could have mentioned this earlier, but kind of in a nutshell, like compulsive addictions, um, what that does to the brain, it, it floods the brain with dopamine. And, and flooding the brain with dopamine dysregulates the brain.

Um, and, and addictions, so, so this compulsive behavior where the person keeps going back for more and more and more, the going back for more and more dopamine. And, and what that does to the brain, it really desensitizes what we call, um, the dopamine receptors in the brain's reward center. So these, um, really good, um, I want to feel good feelings.

And that imbalance, like this overload of, um, dopamine, it impacts your prefrontal cortex. So your prefrontal cortex is your logical thinking brain. Um, but your logical thinking brain really slows down when your brain is flooded with dopamine. And so I, I, I really think it's tragic.

Um, like Janelle mentioned, there really is a lot of, I want to say sexual addictions that are happening because young children, as young as 10, 11, 12, they're not intentionally looking for pornographic images. Um, but they are seeing that. And, um, a lot of addictions do happen because of, um, early exposure to sexualized behavior or material. A lot of addictions also happen because child, because of childhood sexual abuse. Um, and that's, that's a really big one. Um, so like this cycle of addictions, um, really is, uh, I said this before, but like research would indicate that addictions don't just happen. There really is a context for it.

Um, and even things like bullying behavior, um, in children, all of those things, maybe even emotional disconnection or, um, even emotional abuse, all of those can, um, lead to addictions.

Yeah. So Janelle, I'm wondering now, I think you had more you wanted to share on this. Yes. Well, it's like, so what do you want to add? You know, like during times of our lives, we have these like things we really want to say.

So I'm going to, I'll go ahead and say, um, some things here. I don't know that they're new. Maybe it's just unusual for me to be saying them in such a public platform. Yeah. So, um, smartphones are changing the landscape of our brain's capacity to break cycles. So I feel like that, yeah, just that constant bombardment of, of technology. So it's more powerful than any of us can actually manage healthfully. And even though we all now, all that we all know now that this is harmful to brain development, mental health, relationships, it seems many of us still don't know how to stop. So this is, this is my growing concern. I will commonly hear people talk about how they know that it's harming them.

But in this, in the same conversation, often we don't see, we don't seem to see the need to just get rid of it, to set it aside, to set limits, to stop. And so I, I think that by and large, a lot of us recognize the dangers, but we tend to think we can manage it. And if you know anything about the 12 steps to recovery program for alcohol addiction years ago, the first step is actually acknowledging that we are not managing it.

And so that would be one thing I would want to say is I think, I hope, I hope that we can start to actually be honest when we're not managing it. It's a pervasive and silent dopamine-seeking addiction that's reducing our capacity to attend to our children, to bring ourselves to each other for connection. I don't think it's too dramatic to say that it's reducing our capacity to love with patience and with long suffering and with peace. Like we're, we get caught up in the urgency of what's all coming in, um, through this, through this device in our hands. We're, we're demonstrating less capacity for delayed self-gratification.

Everything we want, we want immediately. We want information immediately. We want connection immediately. We want commitment immediately.

Um, I think our young people, especially, have this sense of urgency relationally. A lot of our young people, young women I talk to, they know that they want relationship and connection, but it's hard for them to understand that it, it builds, it gets built over time.

Um, so I really encourage, I really encourage young people, especially to slow down relationally. And I think we have a lot to learn from like older people now, right? They, they remember what life was like when they took their time. So let's talk to people who are in their 60s and 70s and 80s and, and feel the difference in them because they know how to do life more slowly. They know how to, to sit still and develop insight and wisdom. Um, we need them. We really need them.

Wow. Wow.

So you know, that kind of goes back then to our question of, do we all have addictions? And now we ask the question, what are the underlying issues? And what I hear you saying is that, well, most of us are exposed to some very real underlying issues.

And it's going to be up to us to start the conversation of what we can do about it. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have anything else, Karen? Oh, Janelle, go ahead. Well, to start conversations and to look in. Yeah. It's the most courageous thing we can do is to look at ourselves honestly. It's the hardest thing and it's the thing that's most needed. Right.

Did you have something else? Oh, go ahead.

That's it for me. Okay. Karen, did you have something else? Yeah, I agree with, with Janelle and all of that. Um, going back to times when, I didn't grow up with a cell phone, so I guess I'm showing my age here, but, um, really like going back to connecting and, um, connecting outside of devices, I think is, is just so important. And we really do have an issue with addictions with, with technology.

And however, the kind of the paradox is in, in these addictions, like these addictions, a lot of times they lead to contempt, contempt for ourselves. Um, and then that contempt is, is kind of silencing us. Like we feel a lot of shame.

Um, but that cycle really leads to the continued, I'm going to say, pursuit of unwanted addictions.

Yeah.

That's a lot of food for thought right there. And I think, but let's, let's move on and keep building. Um, so Janelle and Karen, I, I think one of my burdens as I think about this subject is we talk about addictions, but let me ask this question.

Are some addictions more common to one gender than the other? I'd really love, um, to hear what you have to say to that. Um, let's start with Karen.

I didn't do very much of a deep dive into this, but, um, I, I, I think research would indicate that maybe something that is more common for women than men is eating disorders. Um, research does indicate, indicate that men might have more addictions to something like pornography than women, although, um, there again, I did not see this or I did not look this up, but they're supposedly some one of the fastest growing addictions in young teenage girls is pornography.

Um, so yeah, those are maybe some of the, um, addictions that are more common to one gender or the other.

What do you have to add to that, Janelle? Um, when I looked at one comment on the, um, pornography addiction is that women are watching it, but usually men are watching it more frequently and for longer periods of time. So maybe just more time spent in that addiction. Um, video gaming, uh, seems to draw in more males than females as well. Again, it's not that women aren't doing it, um, but maybe aren't giving as much time to it.

I think that maybe work and exercise and shopping and eating addictions are more common for women.

Yeah. So now I have a question as we think about addictions and whether or not they're gender specific. And I think one of my burdens is I heard you saying, Karen, that pornography is a growing sexual addiction for young women. And so it leads me to the question, and I wonder, are women getting the help they need for sexual addiction? I wonder what you think.

You know, yeah, my gut response is no. And even I, I did do a little bit of research to this and women are not getting the help they need for sexual addictions compared to men.

If you look at sexual treatment options, where are you going to find one for, where are you going to find a ladies' group? It's mostly men's groups. And there's also an increased stigma when women are struggling with unwanted sexual behaviors. I do believe that the puree culture has impacted, um, us in that area. Women are often, women who do struggle with sexual addictions are often judged more harshly than men.

And there again, this kind of comes back to the purity culture teaching where, um, boys will want to push girls' boundaries and all men struggle with lust. It is every man's battle. And then for women, there is something wrong with you.

Um, maybe even a married woman, there's something wrong with you if you have a higher sex drive than your husband. So those are the messages that are really, um, being promoted. And with all of that, there, there really is, um, a lot of shame connected to that.

So yeah, that's what I would, um, see as maybe women not getting, getting the help they need.

So Janelle, what, what have you seen? What's in your heart? What do you think? Like similar to Karen, I think it's much more difficult to locate programs for women. And I think that it doesn't mean that women aren't suffering in it. The women I talk to that are feel very alone, very afraid of talking about it. They have the sense of the stigma and they have a lot of fears about how they'll be received.

I did also just write a paragraph here that many women who are in marriages with men who have sexual addictions, they are also struggling to get the support they need. We tend to still protect leaders and fathers too long. We want to believe that they can change easily because, or even that they will change because they say they want to.

Wives are sometimes at the mercy of an addiction cycle happening in their homes and they sometimes have to choose between health for themselves and their children or staying in the marriage because unless their husbands change, they can't have both.

Sometimes pastors' wives know that their husbands have sexual addictions and they keep this secret for them because they don't want their church community to be disappointed in their leader. It's not uncommon for women to overprotect their men, thinking or being told that this is part of teachings of submission.

So that's, that's another side of just not getting the support, even if it's not their own addiction. Right. Right.

Right. Karen, what would you add to that? Like the wives that you have seen who are walking with husbands who have addictions. Do you have anything that you want to add to that? Yeah, it depends on, on the teaching that they grew up with, but you know, some, some women are, are taught that, you know, um, some wives are taught that it's their wifely duty.

Um, they might be taught that, you know, they are their husband's sexual gatekeepers. And, um, really what it does, it, it puts a burden on these women and, and then they feel trapped because they don't know where to go to. Um, you know, that they're told these, they're told one thing, um, and, and then the, but their reality is, you know, how long can they survive in, in that sort of environment?

Right. So maybe this comes to my next question. And I'm wondering, so how is shame, how is it addressed in the context of addiction? Or how should it be addressed? Uh, Janelle, do you want to start? Yes, shame is seen by those working with addictions to be central in the cycle. And Karen mentioned this earlier too, that so like you have the, you, you, you go to that self-soothing behavior and, and then afterwards what you feel is shame. And then you need to self-soothe again and then you have more shame. And that's kind of this, like that's simplistic. I don't have all the parts in that circle there, but definitely shame is what keeps the cycle going.

Um, shame also keeps us from confessing that, that we are powerless to stop. Um, and so, so shame is usually the, it's the first, it's the first big wall. Like it's, it's what keeps the cycle going and it's also the thing that must first be acknowledged. So the first step in the 12 steps recovery model is about breaking the shame spiral when someone is able to say, I admit that I am powerless over this addiction and that my life has become unmanageable.

No one can enter recovery without that step. Um, but shame is also the story within the addiction. And so even though sometimes we experiment with addictive substances and behaviors out of curiosity, the level of need to escape or to feel is built around an amount of shame from the past also that's needing to be comforted. So it's, it's present in several ways.

Um, me, I did, I, I'm going to recommend this here book is fairly new.

Um, Wayfaring, A Christian Approach to Mental Healthcare. I think he's doing a fantastic job about addressing this. Um, he writes, the fact that we are known and loved by God, even if we believe it to be true, is not a panacea, not a quick cure, not a get out of depression free or get out of addiction free card. Mental health problems are always much more complicated than that, involving body states of affairs and larger networks of your relationships.

Um, but the love of God is a place to start, like warm ocean waves that slowly and inexorably reshape an entire coastline. The awareness that the deepest truth about our lives is that we are known and loved by God, that can slowly erode and reshape bulwark foundations of shame that contribute to our addictions.

Um, so the healing process for addictions is always pointed at that aspect of shame as well.

Karen, what would you like to add? Yeah, so I, I do have an example here of how shame can be addressed. Um, and the example is of someone who experienced a childhood sexual abuse. And again, this comes out of the book Unwanted.

Um, often in, in sexual abuse, um, like abuse corrupts desire. And so the tendency is there again to shame desire. So addressing shame really is about choosing to explore the stories and, and address the context of, of that particular addiction. Shame really is addressed by treating oneself with kindness and compassion. And so treating oneself with kindness and compassion, it's not cursing your desires, it's not judging, and it's not shaming.

And when, um, when you can bless your desires instead of curse them, what that allows you to do, it allows you to, to take control, um, over these desires and mature beyond what I, beyond the addictions or even beyond the corruptions. So oftentimes when someone is facing an addiction, they wish they could cut that desire off. You cannot, you literally cannot cut the physicalness, if you will, out of your brain and body because it is God created.

So treating oneself with kindness and compassion, um, versus focusing on shame, um, really there, there is a time when you will perhaps outgrow, um, some of the wounding that has happened. And then the more, um, a person kind of owns maybe the shallow behaviors of, of addictions, uh, the less satisfying these, these addictions become. So understanding your story instead of berating and even hating yourself for the unwanted behavior, offer yourself kindness and understanding.

The less you hate yourself, the less power the unwanted behavior has a hold in your life.

Yeah. Janelle, did you have any more you wanted to add? I thought maybe you looked like you wanted to say something. Okay. No, I just love listening to Karen talk.

Your face was showing that. That was very good. And I, yeah, I really appreciate, and I was thinking as you were speaking about how, you know, we're made in the image of God, right? And so our desires reflect that, right? That we're made in his image. Right. I had to think about that as you were sharing that. Now I just want to say I have a few more questions. And then we are going to open it up for a time. If anyone has, um, a question they'd like to enter into the chat box, you can be thinking about that and doing that now. So, um, the question can be ready when, um, we get to that point.

But now I've just been hearing a lot of good things, right? So much good. Um, but I'm wondering for our listeners, what resources do you have to offer to someone who either wants to learn to understand more about addictions or needs help for themselves or wants to help someone else?

I wonder, uh, Karen, do you want to start? Sure. Um, there's three books by Julie Slattery, uh, that I would recommend. One of them is Rethinking Sexuality. Another one is Sex and the Single Girl. And then she has another one that's fairly new. It's called Her Freedom Journey. Um, and she really does a good job, um, in helping especially young ladies who are involved or struggling with pornography or sex addictions. Um, another book I would recommend is Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing, and that's by Jay Stringer.

And then there's also children's books. If parents are wanting to teach their children, there's one, I don't have it with me right here downstairs, but it's, um, Good Pictures and Bad Pictures. I, I did meet the author recently and, um, out of her own story, uh, seeing a magazine in a bedroom drawer, that's how she came about to, um, yeah, writing that book.

Janelle, what would you add as some resources? Um, I showed you this one already. Um, what I would say about this man's writing is I see him as, like, he just wrote this book in 2024. So it's a new read for me.

It seems to me like it's meeting this wonderful place where he's, so he's actually a psychiatrist. He's a Christian psychiatrist, but he has this wonderful understanding of, um, of the needs inside of this. He talks about, and I don't know if it's original with him, but he talks about our longings to be safe, seen, soothed, and secure. And so he's writing to Christians about how to increase our capacity to provide this by being present along the way. But just the book is full of so much, so much good, um, loving and compassionate instruction to believers for this. So that's called, um, Wayfaring: A Christian Approach to Mental Healthcare by Warren Kinghorn. Um, I also came across this book and actually haven't read it yet.

So should I be recommending a book I haven't read? I saw everyone can take it with discernment. I'll just do that disclaimer. I saw the title and I think, wow, I, I would, I think I definitely want to because it's, um, I think it's looking at something and also going to fill a need for us in literature. It's called Quenched, um, Discovering God's Abundant Grace for Women Struggling with Pornography and Sexual Shame. I think there's a lot of women who are, who would, who are needing a resource like that.

Um, I also thought of the book Codependent No More by Melody Beatty. She's writing about when we're caught inside someone else's addiction and we actually realize that we're part of enabling it. That might be of interest to some people.

Well, thank you for those resources. And now I don't, I'm going to kind of just ask you this and I don't know what you'll think if you have anything you want to offer, but where do people go for help? What would you suggest? Where should they turn?

Karen, do you want to go first? Yeah, reach out. And if you're in a community where, you know, there might not be, um, professional counseling, uh, in your, maybe you're in a rural area, um, reach out to someone who maybe isn't at least informed about addictions. And, um, so, so in the reaching out, it's also important to be open and honest about your struggles. And, and when you're open and honest about your struggles, you really are addressing the shame of it. Um, if you're in a community where there's Christian counselors, um, maybe your pastor is, um, informed about addictions. Maybe there's someone in the church that you feel safe with, uh, reach out.

I like that. Janelle, what do you want to add? Um, I, I agree with that. Um, and if somebody's comfortable, I do recommend the Celebrate Recovery groups that are in most communities now, unless you're very rural. Um, I don't know if, like, it does, it does mean going outside of Anabaptist community, but it is a Christian, um, support group that's already established and they're usually quite accessible.

But along with what I think for where, where it's gone really deep and it's been a long-term thing, I, I recommend, um, like counseling. I really do. I think most of us need, we need that, um, place to process the pain behind the addiction, um, with someone who's not overwhelmed by it and can really attend to us personally in our stories.

Is that why sometimes, Janelle, people can care in a church in the community, but it just becomes really difficult for people that struggle with addictions to find the support they need? Is it because the people around them become overwhelmed because they're so closely connected?

It can be overwhelm. It's, it's usually that the people who know them will have their own emotional responses to the story, and that can get in the way.

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate these resources. And I have one more question that I'm going to, um, ask Karen and Janelle, and then we'll open up our Q&A. But, you know, I, we just, you shared so much with us, so much good. And there's been, yeah, there's, it's hard. It's a hard subject. It's not an easy subject.

But yet, for myself listening, um, there's a reason why we wanted to have a hope-filled conversation with addictions, because I think there is hope, right? There's always hope. So I wonder, and maybe I'll ask, um, Janelle, you can go first. So what is your vision for the future as you think about this topic?

I hope that we can continue to follow Jesus' teaching that no stones be thrown by anyone at anyone, and that addictions and suffering won't be viewed as a threat in our churches anymore, but it will actually be, it will, it'll be seen as an invitation to come nearer, um, to help someone find the love of God, to meet these deep longings, to acknowledge our own failings, and to be helpers through His grace.

I hope that we can do more than just bemoan how technology is diminishing us, but that we can actually learn to push it back and start growing again.

Um, I said this earlier that we reach out again for the healthy and more measured pace and wisdom of older people who are still with us and have so much to teach us. Uh, my hopes grow as I hear from more women understanding the importance of facing their stories with compassion and to increase their compassion while caring for others. I believe we're created for this kind of relational nurturing of the world, and I envision Anabaptist women becoming more and more confident in the love of God and saying yes to caring for each other.

I hope we can be more understanding of mental health challenges, including addictions, and that we will stop minimizing and simplifying the causes and supports needed. That we will be willing to reach out and learn beyond our own resources and trust God to guide us to truth and healing along the way.

And I hope that we can bring and receive honest disclosure of pain and suffering and be met with faith and compassion in multiple ways: kindness, worship, lament, and prayers in our church communities, processing and accountability and healing in more private and prepared spaces, and really joyful connections and celebrations with our friends and families.

Thank you. Thank you for that word of blessing for your vision for the future, Karen. Now we'd love to hear yours. Yeah, I would just say ditto to Janelle. I really, really enjoyed that, Janelle. That was really good. Um, and I might just add that, yeah, my vision is for a more balanced perspective when it comes to addictions. Um, one of the verse in 1 Thessalonians: "May your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved, blameless." And so I often think of that when I talk about mental health, but it really does involve addictions as well. And I believe as we take a holistic approach to all of this, um, we will be preserved, blameless.

Thank you. Thank you both so much for what you shared. And now I think we do have some questions. And so Christina, I'll let you share the question that came into you. Yes. Hi. Um, this question came in. It's from someone who is an eight-year secular and faith-based crisis response person to victims of domestic abuse and addiction.

Um, she says, "Compelled codependency creating being a hostage to the addict. Please comment on the cycle of addiction in relation to the cycle of abuse." So I'm not sure which one of you would like to answer that.

Hmm. I think I did. I'm trying to think if I—there is a really high correlation between, um, abuse and addiction. And I'm—I'd be curious if there was a question about female addictions.

It doesn't specify.

I don't have it. I don't have, like, if it's research-based, I don't have much to say on it. I'm just thinking about attending inside one person. Um, the more focused we become on one thing, the more we're shutting out other things. And if shame is—I just think that shame is huge in abuse too, right? The reason we act out and take advantage of other people and harm other people is also built on the shame that's inside of ourselves about ourselves. So maybe I would just point out that correlation that both are both are built around shame.

I think Jay Stringer, um, in his book Unwanted, he did talk a little bit about how childhood sexual abuse was one of the biggest drivers of unwanted sexual behaviors. Um, and he would have said that was that there was a higher use of pornography, um, in men, and then in also men buying sex. And then in, um, women or young girls that were—that experienced childhood sexual abuse, there was a higher correlation of them fantasizing about having an affair.

All of that to say, um, I think the question came from someone who works with domestic violence. Did I hear that correctly? Um, yes. So, so abuse is not a criteria for sexual violence.

I'm not sure what the statistics are. I did hear this recently, even in like male, um, childhood sexual abuse, the correlation for them to go on and, um, be violent, um, that number I think is pretty low.

I have a question here that someone asked, and I think it connects a bit to what you've been discussing. And the question is, is so if there's a sexual addiction habit in one of the parents, can this be passed on in the DNA to their children? And I know we were, you, um, maybe it was Janelle, one of you were talking about genetics. And yeah, I wonder what you would say to this question.

Whoever wants to go first, just go ahead.

Go ahead, Janelle.

Yeah. So again, I can't speak to the DNA part of it. When I'm thinking about, like, um, I think much more about like attachment patterns between parents and children, right? So I think I don't know about the DNA, but I do think about how we are relating to our children and the ways that we are attaching or disengaging. And then children will definitely, um, if what they what they haven't been able to do in attachment history with their parents, I would see that as more prone to be passed on to children.

So less about the DNA and more about the relationships, I think from my point of view. But I'm curious, Karen, if you've read anything, um, connected to more than that. Yeah, I agree with you, Janelle. I believe it's more about attachment and also relationships or even the environment that the child grows up in. I'm trying to think where I saw this, but there is this teaching out there that supposedly it's generational. And, um, I personally don't see that as as biblical because that really puts a lot of burdens on on the next generation. So I would see it more as, like you mentioned, attachment and, um, relationship and and the environment.

I think I had mentioned the genetic aspect or one of the things I quoted, but I think that was more about alcoholism. There were certain people, but maybe that would be more about like actual substances that there might be a genetic tendency towards something like that.

I was thinking about it more in line with that. I really like what—oh, go ahead. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question. So was the question more about, so if if the parents are sex addicts, then the likelihood of the children being sex addicts? I think that was the question. Can be passed in their DNA, right? And I think you both spoke well to that. And, um, this wasn't the first time that you talked about attachment today. And I thought, you know what, maybe you should just explain a little bit more, um, just in a nutshell, what do you both have to offer? Like, why is attachment important? And what are some things you think parents can be doing?

Do you want to start on this one, Karen? Go ahead. Okay. I would, for simple language, I would bring it back to what, um, Warren Kinghorn used in his, in his, and that's that children, infants come into the world, they need to be safe, they need to be seen, they need to be soothed, and they need to be secure. And those needs, those needs set us up. And if they're not, if they're not met, we have great longings. And so when we talk about addictions, where we're going to self-soothing, like where we're going to comfort ourselves in relation to some of those attachment needs, that's we're looking at, we're looking at children who were, who experienced not being seen or safe, soothed or secure.

Um, I think like there, there are like different, um, attachment styles we could talk about, but I don't know that that's for this session. Yeah, right. I like, I like the simplicity of that. That was just a real simple overview. Do you have anything else you wanted to add to that, Karen?

Yeah. So, you know, starting from infancy and on up, like those attachment styles are developed. And so parents can keep that in mind. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. That I thought that just came to me. I thought it might be nice. And I liked the way that was just so simple in what you offered. Um, Christina, do you have any more questions?

Um, I actually have a question coming in about giving examples of attachment styles. But Janelle, you just said that you don't think this is the platform to talk about that. Well, they could, they could do more study on them. Like, um, secure is the one we hope for, right? We hope for secure attachment. And then, um, there's like anxious attachment and ambivalent attachment. Karen, do you know the third one that I'm missing? Avoidant. Avoidant. Thank you. And there's, there'd be lots, um, uh, well, if you let yourself use your phone today, you could learn a lot about that.

Thank you for that. We play those out in our adult relationships too. So while once you start learning about attachment styles and relationships, there's lots to learn about yourself along the way.

Sorry, I'm done.

Anything else? Yeah, I have another question here. Um, it's not on the topic of addictions, but it was something that you brought up about bridging the gap between the younger generation and the older generation. And so the question is, she was wondering if, um, or what's some ways that you can see bridging that gap so that these generations are, you know, intermingling more, connecting more and, um, are learning from the older generations.

Just ask the other week, I went to visit a lady in our church that's in her 80s. And I felt restful just being with her. Like, like it's about communication style and presence. So I think I would say what to do, go, go visit with older people who were not formed in this, like in this generation of technology and let yourself soak in, soak in who they are. It's not just about what they have to say. It's actually, it's they're formed differently.

And it's important to, um, spend time and to, to take in that awareness. So I think that would be the main, my main answer is spend time with them, visit them, um, ask if you can come chat with them for an hour or two.

I would encourage one-on-one if possible or like very small group connection with them.

Did you have anything, Karen, you wanted to add to that? I don't think I do, but I would agree with that. Yeah. Any more questions, Christina?

No, I don't have any more questions.

Yeah. Well, I want to really thank you, Karen and Janelle, for your presence today. Actually, I'm sorry, Jamila, I'm going to interrupt. Does anyone, do either of you have book recommendations on attachment styles or just advice on where to start learning about them?

The first one that comes to my mind is Running on Empty and Running on Empty No More. They go together. The first is Running on Empty, which talks about, um, the attachment needs that can go unmet. Um, and then Running on Empty No More is like geared towards adults who are wanting to work at, um, changing those, those attached ways of relating.

Anything come to mind, Karen? There's one book. I'm not sure what it's called. I'm looking it up here.

It's called Attachments: Why You Love, Feel, and Act the Way You Do. That's by Tim Clinton.

Okay. Yeah. Thank you for those recommendations.

Anything else, Christina? No.

Well, I want to just thank you again, Janelle and Karen, for just being present today and for blessing us with your warmth and your wisdom and just sharing, right? I know it's maybe a little vulnerable. You put yourselves out here, but I feel like God was really present with us.

And my prayer is that he's just going to really multiply what was shared a hundredfold and touch lives. Um, we have a, I have a few announcements I want to make, um, to our listeners, but I just thought I'm just going to give you one last chance. Um, does either of you have any final word or blessing that you want to share with our listeners?

For me, it just always circles back to love. Like, give yourselves to love. Be lovers of people. Let's be lovers of God. And there's just always more of it. And there's always more need for it.

Thank you. My final word would be, you know, as women embrace who God created you to be. And out of that, like we are wired for love and relationships. Um, and as you embrace who God created you to be, yeah, go change the world.

Thank you. Thank you both for those. Those were beautiful blessings to leave with our listeners today. And yes, just want to thank you all again for joining us for this special conversation. And as we prayed in the beginning, our desire is that God can meet you where you are.

So I'm praying that that prayer was answered. Um, we do want to announce that next month, actually, it's not next month, it's just in a couple of weeks, the first weekend in December, uh, we are going to have an interview with two authors. And interestingly, the one book is by Regina Rosenberry. It's Every Girl's Journey. She's going to share her heart for writing that book. And also Gina Martin, she shall be praised. So we welcome you all back December 6th at 3 p.m. Eastern time.

And just once again, what a blessing it has been to just be with you all in this time. And before we, um, close our call, I wonder, Janelle, do you want to pray for the listeners today? Just a short prayer of blessing for them.

Okay, go ahead. Jesus, I thank you for seeing every one of us. And I think of Jamila, who needs to go to bed. I pray you'll bless her with good sleep. But for the rest of us too, Lord, you know what is next for each of us in this day. You know the people that you have given us to love. And you know who is around us to be part of your love for us. You understand your call and you know how to bring us into yourself and into your love.

And so I pray that you will open us up and provide many resources for each person listening, whatever they're needing. Give them courage.

Give us light.

Thank you, Jesus. Amen.

Amen. Hey, go with God, everyone. And just may he bless you each abundantly.

Goodbye. Walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing him, being fruitful in every good work.

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S2S Sisters: Bonus Talk: "A Hope-Filled Conversation on Addictions" by Janelle Glick & Karen Peachey

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