S2S Author Interview: "Conflict Arraigned" by Ryan Martin

This is S2S Books, and we're excited to be introducing you to a new book on conflict. And that book is titled "Conflict Arraigned," and the subtitle is "Investigate the Votility of Discordance: Discover God's Solution to the Human Struggle."

And the author is Ryan Martin, and we have a foreword by author Gary Miller. And the description of the book goes like this: "Conflict is inevitable. It is a normal part of the human experience. The important question is: are we doing it well?

The growing number of strained and broken relationships in the family of God reflects a troubling trend for people who believe in a gospel based on a message of reconciliation. Seasons of interpersonal conflict don't need to end up in shattered friendships. Instead, a discordant situation can be a unique opportunity to grow in extending grace-filled courtesy to those with whom we disagree.

Dare to believe that we can be peacemakers in every situation and be called the children of God. You will be surprised at the outpouring of His blessing." And we have author Ryan Martin joining us here. Ryan, it's good to have you with us. And also, Merle Burkholder, and I'll be introducing Merle shortly, but for Ryan, his bio goes like this: "Ryan Martin is keenly interested in the subject of interpersonal relationships.

His administrative work in business and Christian charitable organization offers unique opportunities and insights. He lives with his wife, Sandra, and family in beautiful Gray County, Ontario." And I've been challenged by this book. Um, this is an interest of Ryan for a long time, and so he took some time here a while back and started writing.

And he doesn't really call himself an author, um, but starting today, you're now an author, so, um, it's Ryan, thank you for putting all the work into this book. And as we thought about this interview, we thought of another person that we wanted to pull into this interview, um, and that is Brother Merle. Merle, thank you for coming on here. Uh, Merle has spoken on Strength to Strength, uh, in the past. Um, I've interacted with Merle through some of my nonprofit work, um, over the last couple of years, specifically with All Nations. Uh, and I've been really blessed with Merle and his interest, um, in people and his interest in seeing God's kingdom come on earth.

And I'm going to read his bio here, and it goes like this: "Merle Burkholder and his wife, Edith, lived in Sioux Lookout, Ontario, Canada, where they spent the last 45 years in mission work reaching out to First Nations peoples.

But they now reside in New Hamburg, Ontario. They have five children. Merle serves as the mentor in the Servant Institute program by Faith Voters. Merle has a desire to help people experience fullness in Christ and see the kingdom of God grow here on earth."

And as I've interacted with Merle as, you know, over the last couple of years, I also became aware that he has a lot of interest in seeing conflict done well. Um, conflict is just a part of life, isn't it?

And a quote that I came across this morning says this: "If you want to have a deeper conversation, a deeper relationship, then you have to have a deeper tolerance for difficult conversations." And it's just part of life. Conflict is part of life, and it's actually an opportunity, isn't it?

And that is something we're going to hear as we get into this interview, and also as you read the book, that conflict is an opportunity where we can show a different way to those who we're having conflict with, um, and to the world around us. It's a high calling.

And so, Merle, you have done a good bit of work, um, on thinking through questions to, to ask Ryan. And so I'm going to hand it over to you, and you can begin with some of your first questions here, and we'll work our way through. Okay, well, Ryan, uh, yeah, I really enjoyed reading your the book. And, uh, when I first saw the book, one of the questions I had was the title, uh, "Conflict Arraigned," and, um, so, and then when I got into the book and I, I read your explanation of the title, so yeah, I'd just like to hear you, uh, give that explanation of the title.

All right, well, thank you. Yeah, I was, uh, I kind of wrestled with the title for quite a while. Uh, wanted something that, that is, that kind of arrests people's attention. And I realized that it's not a term that we use in our everyday language. And, uh, you know, at one point I thought, well, maybe that would be something to consider more seriously and not to use. But, but I thought, no, if people want to dig into the meaning of it, they might be able to see the connection just like you did.

Um, you know, arraignment is a, is a legal term, and, and it suggests the idea that you're bringing somebody into the courtroom to be examined. Um, actually, it's to be accused of wrongdoing or imperfection or, um, or anything that was done wrong, like a crime in the case of, of our court systems. And then, uh, in that process of arraignment, then they plead guilty or not guilty. And the whole process starts where you examine to see, uh, if this person is indeed guilty of a crime. And so, uh, the idea of arraignment is to bring conflict under the microscope, a conflict into the court of, uh, of our conscience or court of our discussions to see if we have done it well or have we not done it well.

And, uh, you know, I, I one distinction that I want to make is, is I think there's a difference when we bring the subject of conflict and how we did it into the spotlight versus the people into the spotlight.

And I hope that throughout the book and throughout this interview, that we're not doing any character assassinations in, uh, in, in, you know, criticizing people, but we're criticizing conflict and learning from where we made mistakes and, uh, where we can learn from the lessons and do better. And so in that sense, it's an arraignment where we all collectively examine it. And maybe we can kind of model that today on this interview of how that is done.

Yeah, I just thought it was interesting, like, to think about conflict as sort of a third entity. You have opinions, you have different, you have two sides, maybe, and, but then to have conflict as sort of a separate entity and kind of look at that, that as a separate thing.

Um, yeah, that was, that was good. Um, and then just following up on some of Ryan's comments in the beginning there about how conflict is just a normal part of the human experience. Uh, what are, you want to talk a little more about that? Yeah, um, thank you.

I, I just remember, uh, when I was giving a talk on the subject of conflict in an HR setting, I actually had traveled to the U.S. and, and had done that. And just before I went up to talk about it, uh, one of the, uh, people that were, was going to be in the audience, um, came to me. He's kind of a, a humorous guy, and, and he approached me and said, "So you're going to teach us how to fight?" And, and, uh, you know, I kind of thought, okay, you're kind of missing the point. But as I reflected on that, the more I realized how accurate that actually is, is we're, we, we learn how to fight.

Now, we don't like to use the word fight because we start thinking about fists and, you know, really sandbox behavior, right? Um, but I think that there's a lot of truth to that, that we're going to learn how to, to disagree, learn how to do conflict because it's going to happen. And something that I have been shocked with, uh, as I talk either publicly or, or privately on the subject of conflict is everybody has a story.

And, and everybody seems keen to talk about it, right? And, and, uh, I, I find, find that fascinating that we all share that. I have yet to meet a person that has been excused from, you know, the, the, the issue of conflict, unless they're a newborn baby, right? And haven't reached a, adulthood at, yeah, at any kind. So, um, and so I think that the message then is that we, um, because it's part of our experience, we don't want to run from it, but seek to understand how it works and to embrace it and be, you know, further to your quote there that you opened with Bryant, that we are willing to have the courage to enter into difficult situations and have the conversations.

So don't invoke, don't avoid it, but, but embrace it. And, uh, I, I think, as well as I think about how this is a part of the human experience, I, I think that we need to understand that conflict done well is a great testimony. We don't, we don't hinder our testimony because we happen to disagree with a brother.

We actually enhance our testimony when we disagree well and work through the conversation or the issue with, with, with a long-suffering heart, forbearance, understanding, a listening ear, no condemnation, um, those sorts of virtues. And I, I, I hope as well that people understand that even if we have really done it badly and, and, uh, there's pieces lying in shatters, we serve a great God that can pick up the pieces and make something beautiful out of that. Now, if, if God does that, it's not a justification for a bad behavior.

Uh, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, an understanding that we serve a great God that can pick up the pieces and turn our conflict done badly into something beautiful, that He gets a glory. And hopefully we can take lessons. I can take lessons home that next time I'm in a situation like that, I want to do it better.

Yeah, I, let's go ahead, Bryan. Okay. Oh, thank you, Merle. Um, maybe just before we transition there, that one of the thoughts I had as I was thinking of this interview this morning and, you know, as Christians, we follow Jesus, right? We're, we're, we're to be like Christ. And in Philippians 2:5, in the NIV says, "In your relationship with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus." Mm-hmm. And then it goes down through those virtues of Christ, um, you know, that with the idea of He humbled Himself, you know, and was obedient even to the point of death, even the, the death of that ladder, those ladder steps down. Um, and, and so we've been given this beautiful vision of how to do this conflict, conflict, but it's so hard in the moment.

It's so difficult. Our, our flesh gets in the way. Um, and we forget that we've been called to be those ministers of reconciliation. And I like what you said there, Ryan, about even if we have, um, some broken relationships in our past because of conflict done wrongly, um, here's the opportunity to go back and reconcile that. And so don't be discouraged. Don't give up. Um, here's an opportunity.

Yeah, just following up there, Ryan, with what you were saying about avoidance, like there are people that, um, you know, avoid conflict and then it never gets resolved, right? Like it's just, and, and people can think, well, I, I don't do conflict like I, but then the, the issues don't get resolved and people part ways and you actually have to engage and talk about things and actually, actually have some conflict in order for things to be resolved, right?

Right.

All right. And then I was, um, getting into a little further in the book. You have, um, some thoughts on the privilege of being right. And I just, uh, found that a really fascinating phrase, uh, to think about the privilege of being right. And then you talked about the 100 to 0, uh, ratio. And so, yeah, I'd like to hear you discuss that a little bit, uh, kind of explain the privilege of being right. You know, I wonder what it would be like to have this conversation in an entirely different culture on a different continent. Like in our North American culture, there's a lot of emphasis on our rights.

And, uh, oh, you're infringing on my rights. And, oh, I have these sets of rights. And don't you dare step on them and so on. And I wonder if, uh, in that cultural reality, we have become very sensitive to, um, to our rights. And, and by definition, that are by extension, we, uh, really enjoy being right as well.

Um, but, but you know, as I, as I talk to people, and I did a lot of interviews in the book and just talk to people, and I, I really tried hard not to make it a formula, but, but just fill it with lots of stories, you know, muddying up the details so, you know, the stories aren't exposed as far as details and privacy and so on. But, uh, I wanted to demonstrate with stories of, of, uh, how, uh, conflict can be done right. And so as I talk to people and, and observed real life situations, I noticed that there is a trend for us to be extreme, um, in our, in our position. And so in the process, we tend to say, or at least hold the position or posture ourselves that we are 100 percent right.

And, uh, you know, we, we actually begin, begin to embody truth or, you know, truth is a big word because that, that takes us into the, the biblical concept of truth, which is God's word, right? But we even tend to embody our rightness. You know, I am right. And then we become the benchmark to judge other people's maturity or how close to rightness they are. If you are 100 percent minded like me, well, then you're on the right side.

And, and so, um, when I talk about the 100 to 0 ratio, I just challenge people to, to, uh, take it all the way down to, to, uh, 49 and 51 percent. What if the other side is 49 percent right? And, and then who gets to decide? And I don't think I ever really answer that question, but it, it, it's designed to change our frame of mind with how we approach it. You know, what if, what if somebody, um, is, has a lot to contribute and, and, and they probably do. We just have to have the humility to hear them. You know, even for myself personally, um, after, you know, this book was finished and I began to even evaluate how I approach conflict, let's say, for example, with my wife, I'm very tempted to use words like never and always.

And I'm trying to strip those words from my vocabulary because, you know, you never do this or I always do, you know, that's not true, you know, and those are extreme words. Um, and I'm not sure if I ever, if I added this in the book or not, um, but I remember reading a book one time by another author and he asked the question, he says, do you want to be right or do you want to be righteous? And he makes the point that they're not necessarily the same thing. Actually, they're often not the same thing.

And he challenges us to whether we're going to just stand stubbornly for our opinion or perspective, or if we want to be righteous and reach out to the other side.

Yeah, that's fascinating just to think about how our culture and how the way we think in our culture affects this whole thing of the privilege of being right. Because when you think about, you know, the whether a culture has, um, the whole fear, shame, uh, guilt, uh, and, and where ours is primarily guilt. And so all our plans of salvation are, you're a sinner, you can be forgiven, here's, uh, here's what you do. You, and, and then all you, and then you can be right. You can be, you, you, you're not guilty anymore. Um, and then we, we can bring that into, uh, conflicts where, and I've seen people who, like, they either, they're either a hundred or they're zero.

So if they're not, if they're not, if they're not a hundred percent right, then they feel like, well, I, I'm really a failure and I'm just, you know, and they, they get devastated because we're so focused on, well, we, we want to be right. And if we're even like 49 or 51 percent wrong, uh, we just feel like, well, then I really missed it. And, and, and just understanding that, you know, none of us have a, uh, a lock on, on truth and we're, we're all flawed individuals in some sense. And that's okay. We, we, we understand that about each other. And so, yeah, that's, that's good.

Bryant, do you have any thoughts on that?

Ryan, later in the book, you, you talk about some principles on how to kind of explore the other side. And I was challenged by that because that's, you know, that I see that as a huge struggle in my, in my life. I want to think I know.

I, I want to, I think I, you know, I know where you are and what your thoughts are, your perspectives. And so many times I have moved into conflict just assuming, um, rather than taking the time to explore and make sure it's understood, you understand, right?

And of course, you know, we have that verse there in, in James 1:19 with the idea is be, be, be quick to listen, slow to speak, and of course, slow to anger. Um, but yeah, um, quick to listen.

Mm-hmm. And so to this, this idea, a person who doesn't have this 100 to 0 ratio, right? Um, is okay with like, I want to, I want to, I want to have my perspective changed. I want to understand better. And we all know people we've been around who exemplify that. And it's just so beautiful. They ask questions, they listen.

Uh, and, and, and it just creates this teamwork effect. Like we're going to work together to figure this thing out. We might still disagree. And that's a, that's going to be okay. We're going to still be brothers at the end.

Uh, that's, that's so refreshing. And I've, I've seen that happen in my life, uh, in church life in particular, just where brothers who have different convictions and different perspectives, but they can listen and not get upset, explore it. And it's, you know, we're going to be brothers. That's okay. Even if we don't totally agree.

Uh, it's, it's a real special gift to give people or just to experience, to see that. And I, I, I, I, um, I'm saying that I'm, I'm way down the wrong. I, I have a lot of growth needed in this area. Me too. You know, we had a, a great, uh, experience here recently in our own church, just a practical illustration of this, uh, of, uh, of potential conflict or, uh, potential for misunderstanding, let's say it that way. Uh, but we had, uh, uh, somebody in our, uh, church who pointed out that in the Bible, leaven is a type of sin. And, uh, for our entire church life, we had used, uh, leavened bread for communion.

And so they proposed that we would use unleavened bread. Well, immediately you can have two different sides where you say, well, we've always done it this way. Or if somebody is really sensitized to, um, to the use of, uh, leavened bread, you know, what have we got to lose? And so the, uh, leadership team just put out a, you know, a bit of a survey. Hey, how do you feel about this? And, uh, we just realized that, you know, we can still have a wonderful communion service and, and somebody that has a more sensitive conscience towards that can, um, you know, enjoy it more. And so this last time we, uh, had the Lord's Supper together, we used unleavened bread.

And, uh, I celebrated it because I realized that this could have been a point of conflict. But, uh, it was just a matter of hearing both perspectives and, and, uh, it came to a good conclusion. I was very blessed with that.

So then what we talk about, okay, so you're, uh, the whole, you're not, it's not a hundred zero and it's 75, 25 or 49, 51. Um, and you listen to each other and you kind of, you know, you adapt and change, but then it doesn't compromise kind of take us down a wrong path. And, and if we're always compromising and, uh, so there, there is truth, right? There is things that are, um, that are right. And so it's not, not everything is just kind of gray areas and sort of, well, whatever we decide, we can do. Um, so, and in the book, you talk about the Berean model. Uh, but let me just talk a little bit about that Berean model and how do you be discerning of truth?

And then is all compromise bad or is, is, is compromise always good? What are you talk about different types of compromise as well? You talked about good compromise, dangerous compromise, sinful compromise. Yeah, just talk about how do we know what is true, the Berean model, and then talk a little bit about the, the, uh, different types of compromise.

All right. Well, you can ask a very deep question in just a few words, Merlin. And, uh, I, you know, and I was very aware all throughout, uh, writing this book that this is going to be the point then of controversy because you're right. As long as we stay in gray areas where it's pretty much a matter of opinion, then, you know, we all kind of, most of us get it that there needs to be some relinquishing of our, of our, you know, strong views on something. But what about when it happens to, um, the things that we believe are truth, non-negotiable truth, you might say, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so the Berean model, I, I, uh, I included that in the, in the book for us to examine as, as, uh, well, it comes from scripture.

And I believe that it's in scripture for us to examine very carefully and learn from, you know, I just asked myself the question when I thought about those people that sat around the table to see if those things were so.

And so Paul and, uh, the missionaries there had preached the gospel and, uh, they were acquainted with the Jewish scriptures. And now we've got this, this Jesus who is the Messiah. And, and, and he was not just for the Jews. He was also for the Gentiles. And, uh, this is really flying in the face of what we've been taught to believe all our lives. And so they gathered together. And I think that the first, um, thing that they, uh, the, the posture, the attitude that they had of what if we're not a hundred percent enlightened?

Um, Paul did that with, uh, Apollos, didn't he? He was up preaching the, the baptism of John and had not yet moved on to the full gospel of Jesus Christ. And he wasn't a hundred percent enlightened. He was very sincere, but he wasn't a hundred percent enlightened. And so, uh, he was able to explain the way more perfectly. Uh, so back to the Berean model again, um, they sat together and I think, you know, one point that stood out to me, uh, among several is that they recognize that there's safety in the community of believers. Hmm. And so when you gather with people that have a love for the scriptures equal to your own, there's safety in that.

And I think the Bible teaches that over and over again. And the other thing that I think, uh, with the Berean model is that they had earnest hearts. And I really believe that when God sees that we have an earnest heart to seek his will, and at the same time we earnestly seek a pathway of peace to pursue his will, I think that there will be an outpouring of blessing and inspiration and understanding that we maybe otherwise wouldn't have if we'd go down the pathway of conflict done badly.

And I hope that doesn't sound like I'm trying to avoid it. I just don't want to make any concrete statements because there is, there's principles, but there is no one steps one to five and you will be guaranteed to overcome your differences on these matters.

And there was, um, uh, there were things that really did matter in Acts 15 where you have the, uh, people that came down from Judea and they said you have to be circumcised. And then it's, there's just this little phrase there in, in Acts 15, verse two, where it says, and they had no small dissension. Yeah So, uh, actually they had a great dissension. It was, uh, there was a lot of discussion and, and it's okay to, but then to delve into what really is the right thing to, to do here. Mm-hmm.

But you're talking a little more about the three types of, or the differences between good compromise, dangerous compromise, and sinful compromise. Yes. All right. Yeah. So I, I point out the, the different areas. So, so good, well, first of all, let me just explain that, you know, I think for a lot of us, especially if you grew up like I did, the word compromise was a, was kind of a bad word. And it was kind of used to describe people that once followed Jesus and, and, uh, then they compromised and now, you know, they don't have much of a, of a profession left. And, um, and, and they've lost their way spiritually. And so, so I associated compromise with falling away from biblical truth.

But, but if we actually take a look at that word, compromise doesn't always have bad connotations. It just simply means that we came up with an arrangement, you know, that, that, that takes a look at both sides and comes to an agreement that we can settle an issue.

And, and, and so there is such a thing as good compromise. Um, but then there is also sinful compromise. And that is when people walk away from the clear teachings of Jesus. And we understand that. And then I even put a category in between there just called dangerous compromise. You know, it's not just on its face good, um, but neither is it necessarily explicitly sinful, but maybe just dangerous. And so I think that when we gather as believers to work through an issue, we have to be able to recognize that there's sometimes dangerous ground that we're treading and, and, and call it out and say, you know, this is potentially dangerous ground. It could lead us into a place we don't want to be.

And so then if we get attacked on whether or not this is a, you know, uh, an actual principle that we, uh, we shouldn't be compromising on, we can say, well, no, we're not, we're not actually, you know, drawing a line in the sand and saying, this is wrong. We're just saying this could potentially be dangerous. And let's be mature enough to recognize from history that sometimes this leads on a path where that can be a slippery slope. And then, um, you know, take, uh, be able to recognize that and, and don't be so immature to say, well, you're saying it's wrong. No, maybe we're not saying it's wrong on its face. We're saying it's dangerous.

Um, so I think we have to have a clear understanding of what sort of compromise we're pursuing.

And, um, the matter, and that's where the Berean model helps us to discern where it is dangerous or where it is sinful, where we actually go to the word of God. But then there are all those things that, um, our opinions, um, I remember, um, our home church, and, um, they were, when we were, we were in missions and, and I was, they were talking about, um, doing some remodeling at the church and they kind of, and then they found out once they start, uh, touch anything, then it all has to be handicap acceptable, uh, accessible. And, you know, there were just a lot of things that needed to be done, uh, to meet all the building codes.

And so it was starting to look like it was going to turn into a bigger project. And so they were going to have a meeting to talk about it. And I asked one of my friends, so what do you think is going to happen? And he said, Oh, I could do the whole meeting before it ever starts. He was saying there's going to be one person that's going to say, uh, what, like you're going to spend money to remodel this old building. We should just tear it down and start over. Like we spent all that money and we're still going to have an old building. And, uh, we should just tear it down, start over, build a brand new building.

Then we'd have something that'll last a long time. And then he said there's going to be another person that's going to say, well, you're going to spend all that money on this building. And there are churches in underdeveloped countries that don't even have a building. Like if we have money, we should be giving it to them and, and at least building a brush harper or something for them. And we, we can't spend that much money on this building. And, and so after the meeting, I asked him, so what happened? He said, Oh, everybody played their part. And, and then they came up with a plan and they did remodel the existing building and everybody pitched in.

And, and but it was through dialogue that they took that diversity of opinions and reached, uh, a workable solution. And so, yeah, it's, there are just those areas where we have to give in order for to be in relationship with other people is we're not, not everything is always going to go our way.

That's such a classic, beautiful illustration, you know, and I think that in that meeting that you're describing there, the visionaries and the practical people came together. So the visionaries just reminded everybody that, you know what, we're spending some money here. This could be used to help, you know, people that, you know, have much more, less, you know, fortunate circumstances than we do. Uh, but the practical people were saying, yeah, but the building's going to fall down. Like we got to fix it up, right? And, but bringing them together, they, they arrived at a balanced conclusion. And I love that, that picture that I'm forming in my mind of how that happened.

Yeah, Brian, any, any comments you have there?

Yeah, this is, this one's, um, deep, you know, kind of the brain model then into this compromise. Um, it's a definitely a, quite a challenging one to think about and to experience as well. And I wonder, this is a little, a little bit potentially a rabbit trail that I was thinking about as I was hearing you share here. And I can't remember exactly how you all interface with this in your book, but of course you can't touch on everything, right? You realize when you write a book that you could write five more books, and maybe you will.

Um, right. But I think about the, the, the importance of like theological triage is called, you know, triage is where you come in, you know, we often think of that in the, in the medical field, there's an accident scene, paramedics arrive, you know, they, they do triage, you know, which one needs their help, who doesn't. This person might have a broken leg, but it's okay. So you sit right here for right now. We have people over here that have, you know, serious, you know, maybe they're trapped in a vehicle. We got to get them out. Uh, and so you, you know, you determine which is the most important, which is less important. And, and that is needed in situations like this, especially when it comes to kind of theological compromise or things of deeply within our, within church and direction and future.

Those are, those are people, leaders, um, people 40 years and older, right? It's, you know, we, we care deeply about those things. I mean, it's something we think about a lot. It's just part of being men and in leadership within our families and our churches.

Um, but it's, I think it's really important to develop this understanding of what are the first things, what are the second things here. Um, because if you're always harping on second things and just, you know, being hard nosed on those, it really takes away the, the potential of actually having good conversations and the things that really matter. Mm - hmm And so somehow looking at that, the situation saying, is this a hill to die on?

Uh, is it not? You know, and you, and you really need to think and pray and fast and seek God on those things personally and then also together. Uh, so that, you know, and again, I'm, I'm talking about something that's, that's looks very difficult and quite complex. And I don't know how to navigate all those things. But yeah, maybe Merle or Ryan, maybe you have a, have a thought there.

Well, the whole thing of transparency and just being willing to, with openness and with confidence, to be able to say, I'm a person, I have an opinion, this is my opinion, and I'm willing to put it out there. I'm willing to have it critiqued and assessed by other people. And that goes back to the whole concept you were talking about earlier about brotherhood. And in the context of brotherhood, we discern what's the best path forward, but just that, but if we don't have transparency, if people aren't willing to put their ideas out there, or if they're going to put them out there, but then be heard if they're not just kind of taken, uh, 100%, then it's a problem.

Um, but we are, so I think the transparency in a group of people being able to, sure to be secure enough to say, this is what I'm thinking, these are my ideas, talk to me, tell me what you think. Uh, and then you get all the ideas out there, then you can begin to look at options and, and, uh, and, and find a, find a path forward. Mm - hmm You know, I think there's a misconception out there that if we state our, our perspective, that we're being prideful. So therefore, humility is to be quiet. But when you actually have a meeting, uh, collectively as a brotherhood, or even business and, and, and family and elsewhere as well, if we choose to be quiet, um, we are depriving people of hearing another perspective that could help balance out the, the final conclusion and decision, right?

And so there's nothing wrong with, uh, influence. It doesn't have to be inherently prideful or selfish. It can just simply be an opportunity to present our perspective, contribute to the whole thing, and then that becomes part of the whole package then from which we make a conclusion. And so the people that you referred to earlier in this interview, Merle, that run for the hills when the sniff conflict is about to happen, we are deprived then of their viewpoint. Yeah, and it's kind of, it's kind of ironic that people will be hesitant to share their opinion, but then criticize leadership for, well, they just, you know, they're, they just make decisions and, and, uh, it's all top down.

But the only way to avoid that is for everybody to be willing to put their ideas out there. And, and actually we help leadership by giving input and saying that these are my thoughts. This is what I think. And, and then leadership has to make, provide leadership and reaching a conclusion and, and guiding a discussion, which brings me to the point here when you talk in your book about, uh, defining terms of interaction and the surrounding environs and content evaluation. Uh, you know, there's a, the just like we know, like in our marriages, there's, there's a good time to talk about, about things we, we need to discuss and there are bad times to do it.

And so by just putting some thought into where and when and what's the best way to, to set the stage to have this difficult discussion, because sometimes we know that difficult discussions are coming. But I found your thoughts on, on just thinking about where and, and when and, and the setting in which we're going to, we're going to have this difficult discussion. I found that really interesting. But yeah, Brian, Ryan, talk about that some. Yeah. So that particular point or series of points is, is in the chapter that's entitled Conflict Management is a Science.

And I put that in there because I, I, I've discovered already that it seems that we trend towards spiritualizing everything. And, and, and so sometimes I think that we just have to be pragmatic in how we look at an item of conflict that we want to address.

And so I just kind of put a few scenarios in there that maybe Monday morning on the way into work after being out late the night before is not a time to tackle, you know, an employee about a mistake they made last week. Maybe wait till the middle of the week until you know they're kind of relaxed, cut up on sleep, and maybe over a coffee in a friendly environment rather than this meet me at my office sort of a context, right?

And, uh, and so I, I think that, um, you know, passion is, can drown out common sense. Mm - hmm And, and, and we suddenly want to spiritualize things because it makes us look that much more righteous, right? And so I think that sometimes restraint can be more effective than a volley of convincing words, let's say, for example.

Um, and I've been amazed at how just a practical understanding of how the environment can work, you know, simply sitting around in a circle as brothers instead of theater style, for example, where we're all facing a podium can really make it feel like we're all on equal ground and everybody's thoughts matter. That would just be an example of a very practical way of creating an environment where conflict has the greatest opportunity to be done well.

Yeah. And I think too, in though, in the workplace or in a nonprofit, uh, setting, uh, the annual performance review is just a key piece of being able to, there are some things that don't have to be addressed today.

Uh, but in the context of a performance review, where you're doing a comprehensive discussion, these are your strengths, these are your weaknesses, um, and here's some things that you could work on and here's some things you're doing well and, and you, you develop a growth plan and it, it, there's just, uh, a context, it puts, it puts things in context and this is really, really helpful. In the church, it's a little different, but where you're talking about just thinking about seating arrangements, thinking about timing.

And I think too, in, uh, in church settings, just having a, uh, a schedule, having a start and a stop time, because after, uh, after a certain amount of time, discussion can be counterproductive and people get tired and, and you start having a meeting that goes late into the night and it's just, it doesn't, it's, that's not helpful. And so just thinking about some of those things. Sense and getting it clarified before you ever start, um, this is when we're going to start, this is when we're going to stop. These are the things we're going to talk about. If other issues come up, to kind of put them on, say, well, let's, let's put that on a list over here.

We're going to talk about that later because sometimes conflict disintegrates into where, after a while, you don't even know what you're talking about anymore because you have three or four issues on the table and, and you zigzag back and forth and you don't make any progress. Um, yeah, any thoughts on that, Ryan?

Yeah, you know, I think what happens is, is so often in conflict, it, it, we move well beyond the original point where we disagreed and we actually begin to form sides. And so all of a sudden now what we do is we just simply grab a hold of anything that will strengthen our side and, and, and tear down the other side. And so what can happen in these situations is, is you just become, you just have this civil war and, and, and you forget what the original context even was because all you're doing is trying to strengthen your side so that hopefully your united voice will be the one that eventually carries and forces the other side to submit, right?

Right. Um, and so I, I love that thought, Merle, about clarifying, you know, what it is we're talking about and then trying very hard to, to stay on that without bringing all the attached things. You know, it can actually become very personal at some points as well. Suddenly we don't like, you know, the, the clothes somebody wears, the car he drives, the house he lives in. He's doing everything wrong, right? But the point is that that just simply morphed into a big deal over time and that, that's entirely, of course, unfair. So, so by being aware of the terms ahead of time, the environment ahead of time, looking at the content that we're going to be discussing, just lay them out, you know.

And there's also a misconception that I, I do write about in the book that, that somehow if we invite people to just unload, that we're being transparent. And, uh, I used to actually buy into that idea that, okay, yeah, if we just invite people with no fear of reprisal, we just invite them to unload exactly how they feel unfiltered in the raw.

Um, about anything, about anything, it just doesn't work. And, and, you know, the, the probably the closest home, uh, you know, illustration of that is in my marriage. I don't get to just say how I feel. It's about restraint. It's about biting my tongue. It's about, uh, controlling myself to, to not allow the flesh to just release the words that want to come. And I'm, I'm ashamed to admit that I, I can, I can put together, uh, you know, a full speech in just a matter of a one surge of emotion. My, my mind will formulate a speech that sounds pretty compelling and pretty forceful. But I think that the humility and the, the maturity is in even being able to restrain that.

So I don't think there is a place for just unrestrained conversation. Yeah. And in your point about marriage, like the home is where we learn healthy conflict resolution. Absolutely. And as parents, some of these principles, some of these things that you have in your book are really helpful, even just for us as, as parents, because we're helping our children to learn, there are things that I probably shouldn't say. I'm feeling it, but, uh, I probably shouldn't say that. And, or I, or yeah, I do need to say what, uh, I'm thinking. And I just think that in, in the home is where we, where we learn some of the basic components of healthy conflict and healthy conflict resolution.

Brian, you. Mm - hmm Yeah. Uh, I, I, I think too, as leaders, we need to help those who are younger and inexperienced. So as a parent to his children, uh, wants to protect them or you just realize they don't have the tools. They haven't exercised their restraint. They haven't learned these things. You got to help them, right? Uh, give them feedback. And if they make a mistake, you don't tear them apart for that. And it's the same way, um, you know, in our interactions with, with our employees, with our team around us, give people a lot of space, right?

Um, imagine the best, give them a lot of space. And, uh, and now, and then, uh, then give, give them some, you know, gentle feedback at some point or, um, you know, we always reflect on our meetings and, uh, I know there's been situations where, um, you know, somebody, uh, you almost didn't have to tell them, right? They know that they kind of messed up. Um, and, and you just go on and you give them more chances and opportunities. Uh, and they'll, they'll grow, you know, if we have a growth kind of mindset, um, together. Um, so, but yeah, I really, uh, the idea of, uh, the kind of the aesthetics, if you will, Ryan, uh, I think is, uh, I, I really resonated with that.