Bonus Talk: "Would Jesus Vote? Thoughts From a Conscientious Abstainer" by Dan Ziegler

Lesson Transcript

The one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him, and a threefold cord is not quickly broken. Well, good morning, everyone. Welcome this morning to Strength to Strength. So one of the purposes of Strength to Strength is to, um, to host, um, speakers on thought-provoking subjects, and I think that's what we have this morning.

So this morning we're going to be joined by Dan Ziegler on the question, "Would Jesus vote?" So we're looking forward to that, and I think we'll just, um, open here with a word of prayer. Uh, Brother John D. Martin is with us, uh, joining us from, uh, Chambers, uh, Shippensburg, Pennsylvania. And so, Brother John, if you would lead us in an opening prayer. Father, it is with delight and reverence that we come into your presence.

It's awesome to be able to have an audience with the Creator of the universe, and I just pray this morning, help us to allow your redemptive grace to bring us into perfect harmony with your will, your thoughts, your feelings, and your desire for our lives at this moment in history. Bless Brother Dan, Lord, just, uh, transcend all his preparations and have him able to say what you want him to say to us this morning.

And I pray, Lord, that it would be a life-changing message and we would make progress toward being more Christ-like and better kingdom builders. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. All right, Brother Dan is from, uh, Minnesota. He's actually joining us today from upstate New York, uh, where he is, um, presently. So, uh, we're going to be, uh, giving the time to him.

Uh, following his presentation, we will be having a question and answer period, so you can, um, uh, collect your questions and look forward to that then. So, Brother Dan, the time is yours. Thank you. Well, good morning, everyone. It is so nice to be here with you. I hope you can hear me okay. Uh, Glenn, just give me wave, wave, jump up and down if, uh, something goes wrong. It's excellent. You're doing great. Okay, good.

So glad to, so glad to connect with you here on this, uh, day, uh, early Saturday morning here in, um, the run-up to election day in the United States. Uh, that's, I guess, coming up this Tuesday, if I got my, uh, calendar correct. And, um, and so this seems like a timely conversation to have, especially among, um, people that are part of the Anabaptist faith community.

Uh, people within this community have historically understood, um, what I would say is a two-kingdom understanding of the way things work in the world, that we, uh, just are, um, are members of the kingdom of God. We are, we are a part of what, what Christ is doing as he is advancing the work of his kingdom and ultimately the work of history, uh, through us. And, and those, uh, that, that understanding affects our allegiances. It affects how we're involved in, uh, in the affairs of the world.

Um, and it has historically affected our involvement in political, uh, political, uh, affairs as well. Um, and, uh, and the use of coercion and, and that type of thing. And, uh, and so we're, we're kind of running up to, um, the, um, election day here. And Bryant, uh, one of the leaders of this, uh, podcast, contacted me, something he's real, uh, passionate about, and, and, uh, asked me if I would share, um, uh, wrote an article about this, uh, topic that was republished in, uh, Plain News recently.

And, and there is a link to that article. I'm kind of using that article maybe as a template for our discussion this morning, but if you want to follow up and reread and think through some of what we're sharing again this morning, you can go back to that landing page, um, from Strength to Strength, and, and there was a link there to that, uh, to that article.

Let me share a little bit about myself here before we go forward, and I'll maybe talk to you about my relationship with, um, with, with the, the world of politics and, um, you know, political involvement, that type of thing. Uh, I grew up, um, the child of a church planter.

Uh, my dad was a pastor, and, um, so I grew up in an urban context, New York City, northern New Jersey, where my dad was involved in the work of church planning for a conservative, uh, not Anabaptist, evangelical denomination called the Bible Fellowship Church. Uh, that has roots way back in Anabaptism, but it's, it's pretty much left its Anabaptist, um, uh, history.

And, but it was a good Christian upbringing, uh, strongly evangelical, kind of, um, uh, with, with a, with a high commitment to, um, uh, the authority of Scripture and, and those type of things. And that was, uh, that was the upbringing I had. And when I was 18 years old, um, I, uh, I wasn't really aware of any kind of, uh, uh, perspective that maybe I ought to think twice about voting or not.

It was, uh, we grew up in a pretty civic-minded, uh, context where Christians should be involved in society in a lot of ways. And one of the ways we're involved in society is by, uh, by doing our civic duty. And, and sometimes it was couched as our Christian duty and, and, uh, and, and voting in elections and letting our, uh, letting our voice be heard in a representative, uh, democracy.

So that maybe that was one of the ways we thought about, uh, being salt and light, you know, and, um, and that was our, uh, that was the perspective that I grew up with. Um, not hyperly politically involved, I wouldn't say at that time, um, but, uh, but yet involvement was, was kind of expected. I was 18, I went to a public school, and there was a voter registration drive at that school in, in 1980, at probably the spring of, of 1980, and I was about to graduate high school. And so I registered, uh, to vote.

Um, I just didn't think twice about it. I, I, it's the same, same way in, in terms of registering with selective service, uh, as they were taking names for, uh, the possibility that there might be, uh, a war, and they wanted all the young men to kind of give their names and contact information. And I registered, uh, that same year, that same spring, probably when I turned 18, um, with selective service for, uh, for the potential military service.

And, and in neither of those things was I necessarily conscientious and just kind of moving along with mainstream society. That, that year in 1980 was an interesting year in, um, uh, most of you don't remember that year, I suspect, in the, in the crowd that's here. But, uh, but that year was the election of a guy named Ronald Reagan, a very articulate, uh, uh, former actor. My dad used to call him kind of disdainfully that, that actor, he would say.

Uh, and, uh, Ronald Reagan was running for president against probably what was arguably the most, uh, one of the most overtly Christian, um, presidents we had had in a long time, and, and, and Jimmy Carter, who had been president, and, and, and some would argue, uh, wasn't a great president, you know. And one of the reasons maybe he wasn't a great president was he didn't have this, uh, uh, the, the, uh, the instinct to use, uh, use coercion strongly.

Uh, there were some times where he was seen as weak, maybe a little bit too kind-hearted, a little bit too patient, a little bit too much of a peacemaker, that type of thing. And so, uh, so there was this election in 1980, that first year when I registered to vote.

And, um, and one other thing happened that year, actually the year before, and that was there was the, the rise of this organization called the Moral Majority, uh, uh, fellow by the name of Jerry Falwell, Senior President of Liberty University, a conservative Baptist in Virginia. Uh, was, was, uh, he and, and a number of others were responding to what they saw as some of the social degradation of society, the movement of a Judeo-Christian American society away from, uh, um, away from what God would have wanted.

And, and this group called the Moral Majority emerged in that election in 1980, um, and emerged in a big way. It was made of a lot of, uh, a lot of evangelical Christians, a lot of conservative Christians, and mobilized this group of conservative Christians.

And in some ways, it was, uh, even though, uh, Jimmy Carter, the, the Democrat was, was, you know, Sunday school teacher and, and probably arguably, uh, quite a bit more involved in his church and in his faith than Ronald Reagan ever was, uh, the Moral Majority felt that Reagan represented, uh, God's, um, perspective in a, in a better way and, and helped get, um, Ronald Reagan elected.

And, and they got credit for that, and that became a huge, uh, boost to the, to the conservative Christian community that, that they could make something happen like this. I think they tasted the power of that moment, uh, and the influence of that moment, and that, that stirred up this, um, uh, this probably an oversimplification, but it, but I think in a lot of ways in modern history stirred up this taste for influence that the conservative, um, Christian, evangelical Christian community had.

Um, well, I didn't vote in that 1980 election, um, for, for reasons I don't even remember. I the summer came, spring came, I was 18 years old, I was starting to get into going off to college. I, I had a lot of, a lot of things going and, and just kind of moved through that 1980 election, and I didn't, I didn't vote. Even though I had been registered, I could have voted in that election.

Ronald Reagan, as maybe you know, uh, ended up winning that election, and four years later there was another presidential election. Ronald Reagan was, uh, up for reelection, and this was in like 1984. And, um, and I was at college at Eastern Mennonite University, and that was where I was for, for the first time starting to bump into the story of the early Anabaptists, a group that I had some history with in, in my family history, but I had no idea about it.

I didn't know they existed, these people that were, um, that were standing up in the face of, of the Reformation and, uh, and, and particularly in the Reformation's demand for them to be involved, um, in, uh, in the church state, uh, power structures of the day.

And they, uh, they decided that they were, uh, called to, to live lives as followers of Jesus and as members of his kingdom outside of these power structures that the, the, the Reformation, the Lutheran church, the Calvinist church had embraced, as had the, uh, Roman Catholic church before them. And, um, anyway, uh, so I was just starting to bump into Anabaptism, uh, although as I moved into Anabaptism, I, I became drawn to what I would call non-conform to Anabaptism.

Um, and, and one of the reasons was because it seemed like to me, as I learned at Eastern Mennonite University about the early Anabaptists, that the, the non-conform folks were the, were, were, were really the keepers of this early Anabaptist vision in a lot of ways. And I, I could, some people would call non-conform to Anabaptists plain or, or, or conservative Anabaptists. I don't really like the term conservative because of the way it's loaded nowadays.

And, and I, and I'm actually really not a conservative, but I was drawn to the radical nature of, uh, non-conform to Anabaptism that, that, that actually believes that, um, how one lives their life, how one, um, uh, from, from how one, uh, works to how a person holds on to, uh, wealth and, and, uh, to relates to one another, how, how a person dresses, how they speak, you know, that, that Christianity and, and faith in following Jesus just pours into all of our lives.

That drew me in, you know, and I became, uh, uh, enamored with, uh, Anabaptism. But that election came along and I still wasn't conscientious about voting, uh, could have voted, but I didn't. Um, and, and, and by the grace of God, I, I like to say because I, uh, um, I don't know what would have happened had I, had I voted. Uh, and I, I'll talk to the about this later on, but, but, um, voting doesn't, isn't, isn't a one way, isn't a one way street. We don't vote and, and simply cast our vote, um, externally.

Voting is also, also has an effect on us. It's a, it's a two way, um, it's a two way interaction. It, it draws us into something. It, it, it moves us towards something. It moves us, uh, and, and so I, I didn't vote. Um, and, and I don't know, maybe, maybe had I voted, uh, maybe I'm overstating it, but had I gotten involved politically, the path that, uh, we had chosen might have been a different one. Well, by that third presidential election that came along in 1988, I was an Anabaptist.

My, I was married at that time, married in '84, actually. My wife and I became seekers together, um, and, uh, and were drawn more and more into the Anabaptist faith community, not only by the early Anabaptists, but by some of the folks that were living out their faith in a radical, uh, way.

Um, we changed the way we looked and, and, and the way we dressed and the way we, um, thought in a lot of ways, uh, um, in some ways to the chagrin of our families who didn't quite understand what in the world we were doing and where we were heading. This was about 35 years ago or so, uh, joined a, a very conservative, um, Lancaster Conference Church at the time and, uh, became, uh, Mennonites and became part of the Anabaptist faith.

And it was at that time that, that I became a conscientious objector, um, as someone who, uh, believed in, um, uh, non-resistance, that, uh, that the teachings of Jesus asked us to love our enemies, to pray for those who persecuted us. Um, and at that point, um, it had selective service called me, uh, I'd have had a different answer to them than I would have had back in, uh, a few years earlier. Um, and I also became a conscientious abstainer, uh, when it comes to the voting process.

I, I, uh, by that time I had believed, uh, that, that the way of Christ was not, um, moving forward through the political processes, even, even if those processes maybe were bringing about what looked like a godly, uh, law or, um, or, or, or a, a more godly candidate than the other candidate who was less godly or whatever. Um, I became a conscientious abstainer.

And, and I did that, uh, in context of understanding that this faith community, that this was the commitment of this faith community, that we, we, we don't participate in the, uh, uh, the power structures of this world. That we, we are a part of a, the non-coercive kingdom of God that's moving forward in the hearts of people. That's in, in our midst, as Jesus said, uh, was it already, uh, but, uh, uh, not yet kingdom, you know, that it would come in its fullness as, as, uh, George Elden Lad used to call it.

But, uh, but anyway, um, and, and that was, that's my story. So I sit here before you, uh, having never voted in an election, um, in anything from a dog catcher to president. Um, and I don't know if they vote dog catchers in, uh, that's, that's just, uh, anyway, uh, so, uh, I, and, and, and it, it was just, um, initially it just happened to be apathy or whatever that kept me from voting. But I, I, I look back and I'm glad I, I never did.

And like I said, I don't know what the effect would have been on, on me, but so I've done some thinking about, about voting, uh, over the years as someone who has had to answer to an awful lot of people who do vote, who are politically involved. My whole family is politically involved. Um, and as time has gone by, my family has moved like a lot of evangelical Christians into a more radical, politically amped up, uh, um, perspective on, on faith and politics. Um, and, uh, and so that context is happening.

And, and you all know right now, I mean, the, the, uh, I've been around long enough, um, to have seen, uh, my earliest memories were of the sixties and things were pretty amped up back then.

It was, uh, the violence was coming, uh, in a lot of ways from those on the left and, and the civil rights movement was, was happening, riots in the streets, uh, you know, um, uh, followed up by, by anarchists and, and, and other kind of political, um, uh, violence and, and, and the sexual revolution was happening back then, the Vietnam War was happening. So I remember that time as a very tumultuous time.

Um, but, but it, I, I don't know, but, but it feels like we're, we're amping up again that politics is becoming very hypercharged right now. And you folks in Pennsylvania are kind of sitting right in the middle of it right now.

You're in the middle of a, uh, from what I understand, a Senate race that may decide the power structures for the whole country and control of the Senate and millions of dollars are being poured into Pennsylvania to convince people to be a part of this, uh, choice and, and vilifying one side over the other. You're just, that's just ramping up. Uh, you're in the middle of a governor's race, uh, um, from what I hear.

Um, one of the candidates for governor in Pennsylvania has some connections with a, with a church that is, uh, peripherally, peripherally Anabaptist and, um, uh, a church I've been to myself over back a number of years ago, but, uh, not, not as a part of, but just a visitor.

But anyway, so, so that's, um, we're feeling that the other thing we're feeling is that the, uh, the passion and the drive behind the politics right now is becoming so much more wound up, you know, the, um, and, uh, the violence that was more common on the left is now showing up on the right.

I just heard even this weekend that someone broke into the house of the speaker of the, uh, house and maybe it was a politically motivated, motivated radicalized person that, uh, um, was looking to do harm and actually harm Nancy Pelosi's husband. There was a plot to kidnap the, uh, governor of Michigan. Uh, we all know about the January 6th events and, and the, the storming of the Capitol and the rhetoric that's been going on.

And so it just, it's, it's on all sides that I'm not giving those illustrations to push us one side or another. I really don't have any, uh, uh, horse in this race or whatever, but, uh, but I'm, but I'm seeing this hypercharged situation and, um, and I'm, I'm also seeing something else.

Um, and, and I, and that is that I'm seeing people from my own faith community, uh, starting to, and maybe more than starting to be pulled into this, um, uh, this, this, this context, this context of voting and political involvement. I was thinking a lot about it. And, and, and so I, like I said, we're part of this Anabaptist faith commitment that has not historically, um, been involved, uh, politically. We've, we've, we've been, uh, um, walked outside of that.

In fact, uh, a lot of historians look to the Anabaptists as some of the, um, uh, first folks in, um, in modern history, um, as a modern last 500 years to articulate the idea of separation of church and state, that the, the church and the state, the state should not have established, uh, religion. And, and that came to be a part of our constitution here in the United States, that there was a separation that, um, uh, the, the, the mixing of, of, of religion and faith and, and politics was not a good idea.

Uh, I think it was, uh, I don't know if it was maybe, uh, Will Rogers said years ago, you know, mixing, um, faith and politics is kind of like putting my ice cream and manure together, you know, or, uh, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, the ice cream doesn't hurt the manure a whole lot, but the manure sure does affect the ice cream, you know.

And, and, uh, so, so there's, there's this, um, history in the, within the Anabaptist community that we don't, uh, get involved in the coercive power of the state and, and, uh, and, and voting is a part of doing that because voting is, is advancing and involvement with, uh, with the state. And, and where does that come from?

Um, I would say real quickly, uh, from a hermeneutical standpoint, um, it comes from the way we understand scripture, the way we understand the call of the Christian, the way we relate to the Bible. And what we do is we go first to the teachings and example of Jesus. We have a Christocentric hermeneutic. Um, we, uh, we let Christ and his teachings and example frame the way we understand the rest of scripture.

And, uh, and what we see in the example and teachings of Jesus, by the way, which we are called to be, uh, a part of, we are called to be imitators of Christ, uh, to, to, to conform our lives to him, to mature as we grow up into faith in Jesus, as we grow up to look more like Jesus. Uh, we're called Christians, you know, Christians means Christ ones. Um, little, uh, little Christs, you know, little imitators of Jesus.

But, um, but anyway, uh, this, this hermeneutic looks to Jesus and Jesus decidedly did not use political power. He was invited to use political power. He was asked about, uh, the use of political power. Uh, he, he was questioned on, on, on whether he was a king or not in a political sense. And his answer was, I'm, I'm not a king in the way you, you, uh, you say, if I was, my, my followers would fight, you know.

Um, but, but, uh, he, he was part of, uh, an agenda of God that was much bigger, much more powerful, and was separated from, uh, the power structures of, of the world. And, um, at, at that time, it was the Roman authorities, uh, in a secular sense and the Jewish authorities in a religious sense. And Jesus did not co-opt the power of either of these things.

He was welcomed into, uh, Jerusalem and in the triumphal entry with the hope, I think on the part of a number of people that he was coming in to be this physical Messiah, a new David that would, uh, you know, kind of turn over some tables and change some things, you know, and he, and he didn't grab hold of that, uh, kind of power. And there's all kinds of examples of how he didn't, and neither did his apostles, neither did his church, um, as they grew, as, as the apostles taught and wrote.

They built upon what Jesus, uh, taught and, and they did not deviate from, from his teaching in this regard. You don't, you're not going to find, um, in scripture, uh, especially New Testament scripture, you're not going to find an example of the call to change the world through, uh, through, through power structures, through force, through law, through that type of thing.

Um, uh, you can go back to the Old Testament, the Old Covenant and maybe, maybe make a case for some of that, but, but the, in the New, New Covenant in Jesus, the example of the way Jesus related to Rome, related to the Jewish authorities is, um, uh, that Christ, I believe you could make a very good case was also a conscientious abstainer. In fact, Christ was the example, uh, uh, to us.

Um, and, and one of the stories of Jesus that, that I was thinking about when I was writing this article was, um, was his temptation and that, and the opportunity, the deal that Jesus had, um, uh, that, that Satan was giving.

You remember the temptation of Christ at the very beginning of his ministry in Matthew, uh, chapter four is one place we hear, we hear this story told and, and that, that, uh, Jesus was out and, and, and in a, in maybe preparation for his active ministry had prayed and fasted for 40 days and, and, uh, um, was, uh, was preparing. And at the end, toward the end of this time, he was tempted, uh, by Satan in three different circumstances.

One is to turn stones into bread, to do a miracle after 40 fast, 40 days of fasting, um, uh, a temptation that, that he must have physically had to fight against. And he didn't, he didn't succumb to that temptation from Satan. Satan, uh, was motivated, the devil was motivated to trip up this coming Messiah. Perhaps the devil had, uh, an insight into what might be ahead for, for him and his cause. And, um, and Jesus didn't turn the stone into bread, didn't succumb.

I answered the Satan with scripture, you know this story well, uh, that he was brought up to the wall of the temple and Satan tempted him to throw himself off and let the angels catch you. Show me a little bit if you are who you are, uh, um, God's, God's going to protect you and, and prove it, you know, and, uh, and Jesus didn't go for that either. And, but it was the third one that was the most intriguing of the three temptations. Uh, Satan brought it.

Well, let me read this here in, in John four, uh, verse eight here. It says, and the devil took him up on an exceedingly high mountain and showed him all of the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, all these things I will give you if you fall down and worship me. So, so the devil was making this deal with Jesus saying, look at all these kingdoms. Uh, Jesus would later call, um, Satan, the prince and the power of the earth.

I mean, I, it, it was, it was apparent that Satan had some sway that maybe, maybe they were in, in some ways in a spiritual sense, Satan's kingdoms to give, you know. And, uh, and Jesus, we know as, as God incarnate knew what he was going to suffer, where he was going, knew what was he was going to face. Uh, he was going to be humiliated. He was going to die in excruciating pain.

Uh, he was going to carry maybe in the most heavy of all of the things, carry the weight of, of the sins of you and I and of me and, and, and of, of humanity. Um, and, uh, and, uh, and so he knew what he was going to face and Satan was offering a deal and maybe this was an offering, you know, if the end result was that Jesus would become, um, uh, all powerful, that the kingdoms of the world would be on to be, be belong to Christ.

I'm just speculating here, but maybe this was an opportunity of doing that without having to suffer and die. Uh, and, and maybe if Jesus had taken that deal, you know, um, the world would've, uh, entered into a time of peace as, as Christ was now in charge and Satan would, would made this deal. Um, uh, of course we know that could have never happened.

Uh, the, the creator could have, uh, never bowed down before the created that Satan was not going to win that deal, that Jesus was not going to succumb to that temptation. Um, but, but it's interesting to think they could have, um, and, and that temptation in some ways was the temptation that we as Christians are tempted by when we are given the choice to coercively and be a part of the power structure that takes authority in the, of, of the kingdoms of this earth, if that makes sense.

We're, we're being tempted in the same way that look, things will be more peaceful. Things will go right if, if you just be a part of the power structures that are here. If you just put this person into the presidency or elect this senator and help this party move forward so that the, the godly agenda is going to move forward, things will be different. That's the same deal. Now, Jesus didn't take that deal. Um, and, and he took the deal that he was called to do, uh, by his heavenly father.

And, and we know the rest of the story and, and we, uh, by the grace of God are recipients of what, uh, of, of, of the history changing thing that Jesus did.

Uh, and, and, and, and, and that it is in the power of that kingdom and the power of the agenda of God that the world began to change 2000 years ago, that the kingdom of God began to break in, that, that, that the, uh, um, the power of God began to be manifest in a spiritual sense and an enduring sense that 2000 years later we're moving toward, um, uh, that, that in our midst, uh, this is still swirling and, and, and moving forward.

Um, so that's the, that's, you know, one of the examples of, of how Christ didn't choose, uh, the, the, the earthly, uh, route, the easy route is in some ways, but chose the way of, of obedience to his father.

Uh, Jesus represented an upside down kingdom, a kingdom of servanthood, a kingdom that, uh, that, uh, of being the least, a kingdom that was built on the model of children, you know, who come in, in simplicity, who come in, um, uh, humility, you know, that, and the, uh, what I was Donald Craig back in the eighties, uh, uh, uh, to call it the upside down kingdom. Uh, a friend, David Burso, wrote a book with a similar, uh, title about the kingdom that turned the world, um, upside down.

And, and, uh, and, and, and I thought, why didn't he take this deal? And I'm just going to, I'm going to read you just a couple of paragraphs of what I wrote. Um, one of the reasons is because I think, um, it's 6:30 in the morning and I, I don't think as well as, as I do when I write in the evening.

Um, Jesus made his point clear again and again that his life and teaching in his life and teachings, he taught the upside down kingdom, uh, where the least shall be first, where his followers were called to be servants to enter the kingdom as little children. He taught the predominance of love. He blessed the meek, the merciful, the poor, the peacemakers. He confronted abuse of religious power and he highlighted the dangers of wealth.

Week before Passover, his countrymen welcomed him into Jerusalem as a political Messiah. They hoped to restore the glory of Israel. Yet just a few days later, Jesus laid down his life as one despised and rejected, accused of blasphemy, abandoned by those he loved. At any point he could have mustered, uh, both earthly and heavenly armies, but instead he told Pilate, my kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest from the Jews, but now my kingdom is from another place.

Jesus and his apostles rejected earthly power as a means of establishing this kingdom from another place. They also taught that the power of God would be made manifest in human weakness. Christ's kingdom was not dependent on humor, human power structures because it is a spiritual kingdom born in the souls of each of the followers, uh, that one germinates from inside out, one that germinates from inside out, not in response to human governance, but in response to the spirit's urging.

Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is one of invitation, not coercion, that citizenship was freely offered to all who repent and accept his reign. Historically, our understanding as Anabaptists has been framed by using Jesus as our model and the New Testament churches are guided, especially as we relate to the political structures around us. Jesus and his apostles did not use the coercive power of the Roman or Jewish authority structures to advance the cause of the gospel.

And we Anabaptists have tried to follow their lead. In fact, many religious historians point to the Anabaptist movement as one of the first groups to articulate how the widely accepted concept of separation of church and state was lived out. While most Anabaptists accept the God ordained role of the secular government to punish evil, maintain order in a fallen world, we've traditionally understood that this course of function is outside of the call of Christian discipleship.

As a result, Anabaptists have suffered under the state's wrath in addition to enjoying its protection in much the same way as the early church. So that's the context by which I come to this question of voting and, and, and by which I have become a, a, a conscientious abstainer. And, and there's some practical reasons I think, and I want to wrap up with this as, and then we can maybe have some discussion, uh, Glenn.

Um, there's some practical reasons why, and I, I thought of five of them why, uh, voting, um, is something, uh, we shouldn't do. I, I, I think the most foundational reasoning is because it's the reason is because it's not a way to follow Jesus. If we vote, if we get involved in the political power, we are in on a path that is separate from the teachings and example of Jesus foundationally. I, I, I think that's clear. I, I would argue that pretty strongly.

Um, but, but there's, there's five things that, uh, that voting does that has an effect on us. Uh, and I think we need to be aware of them. The first one is that by being involved in political, uh, power, the political, uh, politics and, and voting is, uh, the, the gateway to that kind of involvement is there's a danger of getting distracted from our primary calling. You know, our primary calling as Christians is laid out in Matthew 28.

You know, we're to go into all the world, we're to make disciples, we're to baptize them, we're to teach them everything Jesus commanded. That's our calling and involvement in voting and involvement in politics, uh, runs the danger of pulling us off on into another agenda. We start to put resources, time, energy, effort that needs to be poured into the advancement of the kingdom.

And, uh, and we're finding out that, um, uh, we're finding out that, uh, that, that we get pulled all of a sudden and sucked into something that is peripheral to the work of the kingdom of God, even though it feels good. Maybe we're fighting for abortion. Maybe we're fighting for, you know, the family. Maybe we're for there, there's, there's things that we might be involved in.

Maybe, maybe we're, we're involved in politics because we care about church and state separation and the, the, uh, the keeping, uh, keeping the, the state at bay from, from imposing its will on, on religious communities and on community's faith. You know, whatever those causes are, um, uh, that may draw us in, uh, there's a danger of, of, of, um, of, uh, being pulled off message and having our resources pulled into the wrong direction.

And those resources, once they are not being used for what Christ calls us to do. Um, the second danger is the danger of, uh, being a house divided. Um, uh, you political operatives know that the way to get people moved into politics is to vilify the opposition, just a poor vitriol into this so that, so that you be, so that the opposition is painted and is negative and is evil over, right?

You hear, you hear people using spiritual terms in political context to describe the evil of the other side, you know, and, and, uh, and, and so that kind of, uh, message is just constant. And, and if you have, uh, any access to the media in Pennsylvania, just spend a little time, uh, uh, you, you, even if you don't have access to the media in Pennsylvania, I don't think you can hardly avoid it. Um, and, and you see how the other side is being vilified.

And I say the other side, it doesn't matter who's doing the vilifying. Both sides are doing that. That's the way the game is played. And, uh, these perspectives have divided the household of Christ. Politics has gotten people so wound up that people within the faith community are becoming estranged from each other, separated from each other because of politics, or maybe it's because of the, um, failure to become involved. There are people that, that, that really struggle with me.

I know there's people that I call friends who are politically involved, who are disappointed or I am suspect because I am, uh, you know, so overtly, um, uh, promoting non-involvement in politics and they feel like that's a betrayal. And, and, and so there's even a separation between me and some of my politically involved, uh, uh, brothers and sisters on the right and the left who, who see, who, who, who feel like I'm, I'm, uh, advocating for something that's undercutting what they're, uh, what they're all about.

Or, or when I come along and, um, and don't see the package exactly the way they would want me to, the, because politics comes in packages, you know, you, you buy the cake with all the ingredients and, um, and, uh, some of those ingredients are pretty caustic, um, uh, regardless of which side of the package you're, you're buying, you know, and, and, uh, which side of the, which cake you're eating, the cake of the left or the cake of the right, you know, that, that, uh, so, uh, so there's a danger of, of becoming a

house divided and the church, uh, is, is being pulled apart, uh, through politics.

Families are being pulled apart through political involvement right now. So it winds up a third danger is the danger of, um, uh, investing in earthly power. This idea of, um, of, of using earthly power to, to, um, to make things happen. And I think the most selfish motive of this is using earthly power to protect the wealth and possessions and privilege that we have gained over the years. This is a politics is, is, is by and large a pretty selfish, um, endeavor.

It's, it's, it's an endeavor to protect what I've got. We as Anabaptists for hundreds of years in this country, many of us have had stable, solid families. We're hardworking folks. We get up at six o'clock in the morning on a Saturday morning and gather to, to, to, to do things like this.

You know, uh, all, all I'm saying is over the years, this wealth has, has really grown and, and, and so, uh, we're motivated to keep that status quo, to keep that position, to keep that power and, and politics, uh, is the, involves us in the act of protecting what we've got, not, uh, by leaning on, uh, Christ or not even by seeking first his kingdom and letting him take care of the rest as, as Jesus says in Matthew, uh, in the Sermon on the Mount.

But, but by, by voting for and, uh, people and laws that are going to protect what we've got, you know. So, so there's this idea, it, it, it also, and this is maybe the most important thing, um, voting in politics as a, it, it pulls our loyalties, uh, it, it draws us in and ultimately it becomes a danger to our allegiance. Um, non-voting, uh, is a simple act, but in some ways, uh, it, it, it acts as a firewall. You know, computers have a firewall.

I don't know if they still do, but in computers, a sort, uh, computer, um, uh, setup, you want to have a firewall between you and the viruses and the bad stuff that's out there that's, that's going to keep it from getting into your computer. Um, and, and so something, a barrier is placed out there. I feel like voting is, is a firewall of sorts that keeps us from, um, from, from the long slide that may start to undercut our allegiance.

And, and, and instead of, uh, being a, uh, uh, uh, declaring our allegiance fully to Jesus, we, we have split loyalties or, or, or, or shifted loyalties, or now we, we become, uh, loyal and, and declare our allegiance to the state as well as, and, and to the power structures or to a party as well as to you, rather than to the kingdom of God. So that's a, that's a, uh, third one. A fourth one that I think is really important in recognizing is that, uh, there's a danger of being formed by politics.

Um, if I vote and if I start to get involved, politically involved, something subtle is going to happen to me. It happens. It's human nature. I start to conform my thinking, my worldview, my perspective to my new tribe, my, my valley. It's like, it's kind of built into us to be, uh, tribal in this regard. There's a couple of guys, um, uh, Mr. Putnam, Mr. Campbell wrote a book, uh, called American Grace a few years ago. It was a pretty extensive study on people and their relationship with politics and religion.

And, uh, they came to this conclusion. They said most people change their religion to fit their politics, not their politics to fit their religion. Um, is it any wonder that today's, uh, churches end up so, um, uh, closely mirroring the political platforms of, of the parties to which those churches tend to be involved? Does that make sense?

Uh, the, the, the, the, uh, the churches on the left, the socially active, the, uh, you know, the, uh, justice oriented, uh, churches end up looking very much like the, the package on the left, the, uh, the churches on the right, the evangelical conservative evangelicals. Um, they take on the whole package. It's not a few issues, but, uh, but they, they, everything that is important to that platform now becomes important to them.

People, people tend to conform to their new tribe and the, the tribe that they are moving toward is the tribe of politics, the tribe of, um, political involvement. And, and that's, you can see that happening. I've, I've watched it over the past 35, 40 years, uh, lived long enough to see some movement in that regard. Um, uh, and then the final, uh, thing I think that's a danger is the danger of alienating those to whom we are called to minister.

Uh, we start picking sides, brothers and sisters, and, and, um, and we end up alienating ourselves from some of the people that we are called to reach out to because now we've become, um, uh, now we've become, um, a, a part of something that, uh, that they won't relate to. Does this make sense? We get cut off from others because we've chosen a tribe, uh, and the tribe is not the kingdom of God versus the kingdom of the world, but the tribe is a subsection, a political party or whatever.

Uh, it, it also works internally. Uh, there's some studies that show that, um, people, uh, young people are leaving Christianity in, in massive numbers. And when pushed on why they're leaving it, one of the chief, uh, reasons is the political involvement of the church that, that, uh, that, that young people are being alienated by the way they see the church, um, selling out to, to politics. And so, uh, so I think those are some, and, and I guess we're, we're, that's about 45 minutes, Glenn.

That's what I was kind of aiming for here, but that, that's kind of a summary of the article. You can link to it, uh, read it, uh, in, in, uh, if, if you want to think about those things. But, um, but all that to say, um, I, I think we are needing to be, uh, strongly aware that there is a lot of pressure, uh, on our community to become politically involved. And I think we're getting a little ragged around the edges.

I think there's a core commitment, uh, to, um, to, to this two kingdom theology that, that, that keep, keeps us distant from political involvement. But I just think we need to continue to be on guard and, uh, and, and I, I see people and I have friends and, and people in relationships in this non-conformed plain Anabaptist community that are getting pulled in and, and the politicians are, are watching for that.

Uh, Lancaster County becomes a stop along the, along the way now, you know, that, um, that, um, politics is now, if, if, if the local politician or the state politician can pull in, uh, the plain community, um, they all of a sudden have an awful lot of, uh, votes and an awful lot of potential, you know, and, and an awful lot of power. Um, so, uh, so maybe, maybe it's time to just throw open this to a couple of questions before I, uh, I wrap up.

I do want to reserve maybe just the last five minutes to just comment, uh, you know, I've, I've talked mostly about why, what I, what we don't do. Uh, there is a positive model actually that comes right out of scripture, uh, for what we do do and, uh, the proactive model. Um, so, you know, abstention means not doing something, but I, I don't think we're supposed to just kind of be uninvolved, be passive, you know, the, um, so, so where, where are we at with questions, thoughts, uh, pushback? Um, what were you?

All right. Yeah. Well, thank you, Dan. Yes. Uh, we do have a few questions here and I want to thank you for, for sharing and, um, yeah. So I, I do have a question here, uh, specifically to what you were just, um, bringing up about what should we be doing instead when those who are politically involved accuse those who are not politically involved of doing nothing. Is that something that you want to be, you have something to address on that after some other questions? I, I do.

And maybe I'll just reserve that to, to the end if I can.

Um, I, I will say this though, that, that question is usually motivated not by, um, not by a concern that you're not involved, but it's probably motivated by a concern that why aren't you involved with their cause and why can't you lend your voice to what they hope, you know, that they're, uh, they're not asking you to become politically involved, uh, in any other way than to be politically involved with them in the same causes that they care about, you know.

And, uh, and for our faith community, it tends to be the more conservative causes more often than not because of what's happening in society, because of some of what we see. But, but there are, there are plenty of causes to, to go around on all sides of the spectrum here. All right. So another question that came in is, um, how do you feel about, um, holding office or running for office in, in local town governments where there's, um, you, you mentioned the dog catcher. Yeah, that, that's a good question.

There's a, I will start by saying this, take away, um, all of the argument about the, the, the following the, the, the example of Jesus and, and reasons not to vote. Um, there's, there's this pragmatic reason that a non-conf, not a non, um, oh, that, that, uh, non-resistance, uh, keeps me from voting. And that is how can I claim non-resistance and vote in the commander in chief of the military?

Or how can I claim non-resistance and vote in the sheriff, sheriff who, who, who carries a, a gun and may use a deadly force on my behalf? Or how do I vote in a congressman who may vote to go to war on my behalf? So, so conscience objection even alone is, is a reason, uh, to not, to not vote. But, uh, but what about those local things? Uh, you know, the, the greatest, my, my closest temptation I would have ever come to voting has, has been on, on local issues. Do does, does gambling come into our community?

Is there a referendum on gambling? I'm, I'm, you know, I'm going to come out against gambling. And so maybe I should register to vote in that. Um, I guess what I would say or, or local involvement, you know, showing up locally at, at the town, at the town meeting or, or, you know, um, I think the, the, the, the at the surface, maybe there that, that feels less conflicting with my Christian sensibilities. But I want to say this, I think that kind of involvement is a gateway drug.

Um, yeah, yeah, if, if, if I could say it that way, you know, um, we don't, uh, we, we don't become political and politically minded all at once. It's a vote is an entry into a system that eventually grows within us. And, uh, and I suspect most, um, most politicians and most people who are just viciously political have started in a small way, you know. So I think there's a danger there.

Um, uh, I, I would, I would just challenge us to find ways to be salt and light, but understand that there is a danger that politics at that point I made about politics forming us. Um, maybe we're, maybe we're strong enough to keep that from happening.

Maybe we're not, but, uh, but you start showing up, you start, uh, being involved in the process, you start being relating to others who are involved in the process and your commitment grows to that party and that tribe and, and, uh, it, um, I think it's, it's the danger maybe. Uh, and I suspect there are an awful lot of ways of being effective salt and light this side of the political system. You know, we can make a difference in our community and people's lives in so many practical ways.

Um, Jesus could have been involved locally politically as well as his apostles, and they chose not to, you know, they chose to change the world in other ways by, uh, by advancing the cause of love. I, I don't know if that answers it fully. Um, I, you know, I, I think we all have some, some liberty here to, to work this through, but I just would put up a big caution that that, uh, that little harmless puff of marijuana doesn't, doesn't lead to something bigger down the road, you know, using that metaphor.

Good morning. Brother Dan, I want to commend you for a very inspiring presentation. I find a wonderful prototype for what you're talking about in the Old Testament in the person of Moses. Yes. When you think about Moses making his decision, you know, he, he was in line, if not to be Pharaoh, at least to be greatly involved in that system and how much good he could have done. I mean, he could have been a person influencing the whole world in that coercive, uh, type of system.

But he chose to set up a countercultural community of faith. A lot of people go to the Old Testament, of course, and look at the coercive tactics of Israel, but what they forget is that was outside the power structures of the day. And God constantly warned them never to get involved with those power structures. Right. So I think even there in the Old Testament, we have a wonderful prototype of the kingdom of heaven.

I mean, it was operating, of course, differently in the Old Testament, but it's still that same concept of setting up a countercultural community of faith, uh, that is a challenge to the kingdoms of this world. So I, I just find that a tremendous inspiration to just look at Moses and the momentous choice he made, uh, to take a countercultural approach rather than get involved in the kingdoms of this world. But my question to you is the one that is often raised.

If someone attacks my family, should we use the, uh, uh, state or the carnal forces of the world to protect ourselves and call 9/11? That's a question. The billboard people that talk to me are often asking that question. So do you people in any way use the state to protect you when you're in trouble? Right.

I, I guess the, the, the, there's two, two answers to that in a personal sense, uh, not if I can help it, you know, that, uh, in, in other words, that, that, that, uh, you know, my, uh, my approach to, to, um, protecting my family, uh, is, is to use whatever I'm given from, from the teachings and example of Jesus to disarm, to, uh, call on spiritual protection, to, to reach out to, to a protection that is so much greater and grander than the, the, you know, the coercive force of the police and, and whoever it is

that comes with a, with, with, with, with force.

Um, I think Romans third, uh, Romans, um, uh, gives us the understanding from, uh, from the Apostle Paul that, um, that the state keeps order in a fallen world, that, uh, that, that this is a, I think in some ways, this is a whole different discussion, but that there's a grace from God that, uh, that allows the state to punish evil, to, uh, you know, to, to not bear the sword in vain. So I think I, I think that's, and there's an allowance for that.

Um, if harm was being done and a violent person was, was doing, uh, harm, uh, I think the state involvement of police involvement is, uh, is something that, um, that is ordained to happen or, or, you know, by, uh, by God. But, um, but I, I'm hesitant and I, I would, I think I would in light of that probably call 911 if there was someone with a doing harm to an innocent, you know, that type of, that type of thing. Um, it's a, it's a good, it's a good question.

Our commitment though is, is so much higher than that and to a power so much greater than that. And, uh, and I don't join in the exercise of that deadly force. Um, I'm ready and I, we can go on for a long time about this, uh, this discussion, but I don't know if that answers what you're saying. I'm, I'm curious, John, you've thought about this, I'm sure quite a bit yourself. Would you, would you, would you dial 911? Well, that's why I ask you, because I'm not sure.

I, I think there has to be, uh, in that area, I think we have to leave it to what God would say to us in our, I think it's a case by case. Yeah. Decision. I've been, I've been held at gunpoint. We lived in Haiti. Uh, I've, I've been, um, uh, had my life threatened. Uh, you know, police were called in that circumstance.

They didn't come, you know, in time, but, uh, but, but by the grace of God, um, I was just working, uh, the love of Christ to, and, and, and the power of prayer at that moment to the greatest degree I could. Uh, the police, the authorities were something outside of that circumstance, outside of that moment, outside of my control. And with all that was in me, I was going to work at living out the non-resistant love to this, uh, fellow that, that had the gun pointed at me.

Um, and, uh, you know, by the grace of God, I'm here. Maybe, maybe if God was ready to take me, I wouldn't be. But, uh, but I, I felt much more confidence in the power that, that I rested in, in Jesus than, than, uh, waiting for the potential of the police coming to defuse a situation like that. If that's, if that's any help. Well, I think the misconception a lot of people have is if a carnal force gets involved, there will be protection. Uh, that's not necessarily true.

No, that is the police studies, uh, have shown because they're always interested in how to defuse these situations in the most, uh, effective way. Uh, the police studies have shown that you're more likely to survive if force does not get involved. That's right. And if it does get involved. Well, and force, these, these discussions always kind of assume that force is the only way out of these situations.

That, that, that prayer, that humor, that love, that, you know, Pablo Yoder, who just passed away recently, uh, uh, uh, talks a lot about, uh, um, you know, non-resistance in the face of violence, you know, and, and some of the transformative things that, that have happened. Um, I, I know that you've had him on this, uh, podcast and, and somebody wants to link back to some of those stories.

It's, it's pretty powerful down in, uh, Nicaragua where, uh, where God's protection was in the midst of a non-resistant response to violence. Or we're a little off topic. Glenn, may I, may I, may I finish with my summary here? Yep. Go ahead. We're just getting started here. But, but, uh, anyway, uh, so, so to, to say don't vote is, is not enough. Um, to say follow the teachings and example of Jesus is, is where we're going. And not voting is not a call to passivity. Um, we are to be salt and light.

We are to overcome evil with good. We're to be active forces for the advance of the kingdom of God and the power of love and the power of the way of Jesus in this world. So, so I, I, we get, we get, uh, by, by not voting, by not, uh, by turning the other cheek, we get accused of, of doing nothing. The last thing I want to do is nothing for the cause of Christ. I would give my life for the cause of Christ if that's something, you know. So, so the, the, the, the model is not, um, using the power structures.

The model to respond to the power structures of the world is given to us, um, by, by the Apostle Paul in, uh, 2 Corinthians 5, where he talks about being an ambassador for Christ. That ambassador model is just a powerful proactive model. It's a model that says, I am, uh, number one, a representative of my king and my country. As Peter says, we're strangers and aliens. I'm, I'm here. I'm not a part of your power structures, but I'm here to speak to your power structures.

And I'm here to, to mirror and to represent and to, um, promote the perspective of my king. You know, my king is King Jesus. His kingdom is, is the kingdom that I have come to represent. And, and my ministry is this ministry of reconciliation. You know, that scripture talks about. So, um, as an ambassador representing king of king and country, I do need to speak the truth. Um, I, I need to speak it even when it's unpopular. Um, the, the prophetic voice of Christians is important.

If nothing else, it's one of the ways that the world finds out, um, what the way of Christ is all about when, when the, when society around us is, uh, is, is, um, uh, going in, in directions in terms of sexuality or in terms of the family, uh, that are counter to the way of Jesus. We do need to speak up prophetically when, when children, babies are, are being killed in the womb.

We have an opinion about that that comes out of Christ's love for children and, and the, the, the, the sanctity, the holiness of, of, of, of life. Um, you know, when the church, uh, is being oppressed, when the state is, um, overreaching, we can speak up to that, but we do it not through the political systems. We do it as an ambassador speaking as, uh, to the kingdom of God.

Uh, when, um, when the poor go un, uncared for, when injustice, um, racially or otherwise is happening, when, when, when, when oppression is going on, when, when wealth is, is oppressing, we can speak up. We can speak prophetically, but we don't speak politically. And there's a difference there. We speak ambassadorially, if that's a, if that's a word.

Um, ambassadors also not only are they, uh, speaking, uh, the truth of their king and country, but they're doing so diplomatically, um, uh, that, uh, that we do so, uh, not as, um, a belligerent, uh, finger wagging conservatives or, or whatever, or, or, or a gender driven angry people. We do, we do speak as Jesus says, speak the truth in, in love, right? We speak with, with, uh, we speak in such a way as to be heard.

Um, and, and to, to be honest, uh, politically involved people as they speak to each other and as they speak to the world around us are typically not heard because of the way they're speaking. They're, they're, they're, they're, there's anger. There's, there's, um, um, there's, you know, uh, shows of, of, of vitriol and force. And I, and I think, I think, uh, we need to speak diplomatically and, um, and, and maybe most important as ambassadors, we rise above the prey, the fray, the prey, maybe two.

Um, an ambassador is taught to not get involved in the local politics of the country. They are to stay above the local politics. They're not to choose sides. They're not to become, uh, a part of the agenda of the country to which they are sent. They are to speak on behalf of their king into the context of that country. And so, so that ambassador model becomes the template, I think the Apostle Paul has given us, um, to, uh, uh, to move forward. And I, that's a whole discussion in itself.

What does it mean to be an ambassador? How do we do that? You know, but there's just a great model there. I'm thankful for that, uh, that we have that. I'm gonna just end with a quote here, if I may, Glenn.

I know we're a little over time, but, um, um, the first one I'm gonna quote is, it says this, um, when we as Christian representatives, as Christ representatives, choose to enter into the petty tribalism of partisan politics, we not only lose credibility, we risk casting the Lord of all creation into the role of tribal deity, a, a, a grievous demotion. Uh, our ambassadorial voice is clearest when our fealty is to Christ alone.

Um, I was quoting myself there, I think actually, but, uh, but the, the, the, the, the, I was actually asked to be a part of a, um, an article on Christian nationalism with the viewpoint folks. And, and I, uh, one of the little subsection questions I, I was asked to write about was this idea of being an ambassador, but, but, but, uh, politics is just inherently tribal. And, um, and if we pull God along with us, we start to frame the God of all creation and, and, and he becomes a tribal deity.

He becomes our God, the God of our party, the God of the Republican Party, the God of the Democratic Party, whatever. Um, what, uh, what a demotion to, to, to, to the God of all creation and, and what a danger. And, and I would say borderline, uh, what, what, what a, um, what a blasphemy, you know, what, what idolatry. Um, so, so guard that. I'm gonna end with a quote from, uh, Greg Boyd, um, who wrote a book, uh, called The Myth of a Christian Nation. Greg, Greg is a, a, uh, uh, a mainstream.

He's not, he's not plain or non-conformed by any, any sense, although he's someone who's, who's spoken to and, and, and was drawn to Anabaptism, uh, like I was along the way. And he said this, he said, the reason God calls kingdom people to remain separate from the ways of the kingdoms of this world is not to isolate them from their culture, but to empower them to authentically serve their culture and ultimately to win it over to allegiance to Jesus Christ.

The reason we are not to be of the world is so that we may be for the world, um, so that the world may know who Jesus is. And that's where our witness is. And, and I, I wanna end just with a, with a calling to each of us to, um, take on this role of, of representing the kingdom of Christ. And, uh, let's, let's go forward, um, boldly. Let's go forward in such a way that we can, uh, make a difference of through Christ, uh, empowering us to, for in the world.

Um, and let's not do it, um, through, through, through secular means, through human means, through, uh, through, through the powers of this earth. Um, who scripture says ultimately Christ will eventually put under his feet. Even, even, even Christian Judeo-Christian governments, uh, will be under the feet of Jesus eventually, um, according to scripture. Amen. Thank you, Dan. Yeah. So, um, I have a few more questions. We won't have time to get to, but, uh, really thank you for your, your time this morning.

And, um, Dan does need to be getting off here. So, uh, maybe if you would close with a word of prayer and then I just have, uh, one quick announcement following that. Sure. For the Dan. Lord, um, we feel small sometimes, um, and we are in the midst of a world that seems so confused, uh, so off track.

Um, we see wrong, um, happening all around us and, um, and we wanna know how to go forward, um, and, and to, uh, to be salt and light, give us the courage, uh, to stand resolutely, uh, for your kingdom, um, to, to mirror you in the way you lived, in the way you talked, in the way you, you, um, made a difference in the world around you. Uh, may we echo, uh, your voice, Lord, as the world gets angry around us, um, as loyalties shift.

We just ask by the power of your spirit that we would be given the strength to remain loyal to you as king, to your kingdom as kind, as our country, um, to the nation of the children of Jesus that transcends boundaries and tribes and barriers and borders. Um, be with each of those that are a part of this and that would listen to this, uh, down the road that down the, down the line here that, um, that you would help each of us, uh, find ways to, uh, to be ambassadors for you and your kingdom.

And we pray along with you that your kingdom would come, that your will would be done, um, on earth as it is in heaven. And we thank you for the adoption into this, into this kingdom for, for what you did, um, by not choosing the easy way, but by choosing the hard way, by suffering and dying and, and, uh, and, and allowing us to be reconciled to your Father. It's in Jesus' name we pray this. Amen. Amen. All right. Thank you all for joining us.

Uh, next week, uh, we will be having a meeting again because today's meeting is an off week. And, uh, so next week, November 5th, we'll be continuing the series on sacred writings. Uh, Chuck Pike will be joining us, uh, to talk about the Bible that Jesus read. So look forward to that. And, uh, with that, I think we'll conclude. Thanks again for joining us today. And Lord bless you. Blessings everyone. Thank you. As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.