Discussion Jumpstarter
Study leader reference - not a definitive answer
Question 8
When he later told a coworker, “If you would die right now, you’d go to hell… I would go to hell too,” because of excommunication, what does this reveal about assurance, salvation, and who has authority to declare someone “in” or “out”—and how does that clash with the typical evangelical way of talking about assurance?
Another way to ask: Because of excommunication, he believed both he and his coworker would go to hell if they died then. What does that say about assurance and who gets to decide who is “in” or “out,” and how does that differ from how evangelicals usually talk about assurance?
Discussion Jumpstarter
Direct Answer
It reveals that his sense of salvation and assurance was tied strongly to church status—being “in” or “out” of the Amish community—rather than confidence in God’s saving work. This clashes with the typical evangelical pattern he references indirectly, where assurance is often spoken of more personally and less dependent on a community’s formal judgment.
- He told coworker Joshua: “if you would die right now, you’d go to hell,” grounding it in Joshua’s “bad stuff” and moral guilt.
- He then added, “I would go to hell too… I got baptized in the Amish… I’m excommunicated now. So if I die, I go to hell.”
- His mindset was rigid: “either it’s hell or being Amish for the rest of my life,” showing assurance was linked to staying within the Amish order.
- He viewed rebaptism as crossing a fatal line: if you get “rebaptized…you really did it…you’re probably really doomed now.”
- Later he concludes he must keep “all my commitments,” returning to Amish life to try to be “an Amish and…a Christian,” again showing how authority structures shaped his security.