The Problem of Pain (Part 2) - Bill Shiley | KFW 2020

Lesson Transcript

Let's pray. Father, thank you, uh, thank you that, uh, for that song, that He is worthy. Does the Father truly love us? He does. Does our God intend to dwell with us? He does. And we, we have the privilege of knowing that because of Jesus. Uh, we can look back. It's been given to us through Your Holy Scripture. It's been to it's been told down through the millenniums of, of, of Your Son coming. And, and we believe that, that that happened. And because of that, we, we know that You do intend to dwell with us.

You're, You're dwelling with us now by Your Holy Spirit. And someday, in that new heaven and that earth new earth, You will be do we, we can dwell together, and that'll become a, a tangible reality. And we look forward to that time. So, Father, pray You have a special blessing on our brother as he, um, launches into maybe a more of a, uh, maybe more of a, um, uh, a deep, a hard, uh, talk this evening. Father, pray that You just pour Your Holy Spirit upon him and give him wisdom, a clear mind.

Give him boldness, Lord. Boldness, uh, because he knows that, that he is just being a mouthpiece for You, Father. And also knowing that, that Your heart is so close to those who have pain and who are suffering. So give him Your heart and Your word tonight. In Jesus' name. Amen. So, uh, Bill, thank you for your, your, um, topic last evening. That was a blessing. Um, and for those of you who are listening in, uh, th he we do have a handout that he'll be kind of working through.

It's on our website, The Kingdom Fellowship. You can pop over there if you're on if you're on the internet and get that, and you can follow along, um, with him. So bless him, Bill. All yours. Well, good evening. Um, my name's Bill Shiley, and, uh, we've been talking here about the, um, the issue of suffering and evil in the world and, um, some things to help us cope. Last night, we went through, um, some truths and some of how we think about the world and we think about God.

We went through what the story of the Bible actually is. And while there are, um, there's truth to things like God is all-powerful, God is all-knowing, and, um, things like that that seem to contradict evil in the world, we looked at some truths that are left out, I think, intentionally by Satan and his, his team to, um, to put a bad really bad slant on God. So we looked at more facts in the story and informed our minds last night.

Um, some of our, our basic, um, some of our basic journey, um, summing it up here, was that we see God making a good world, but integrated into the whole thing was, was free will. And because of love, love is love of necessity requires free will. Uh, we have to be able to choose. It has to be something voluntary, something given. And, um, that God delegated part of His power to humans.

And so as humans made a choice, God is God will not mess with that, um, because He values their free will and He respects the, um, the autonomy that He gave them. And so man's choice to be other than good and to partner with God, to follow God's method of reigning and creating, um, has produced a world that is other than good, which we call evil. And we also noticed, though, that God has entered our brokenness. He came and, uh, became flesh and lived among us, experienced our evil.

And, um, He did that in order to be able to redeem us. And He has redeemed evil by defeating Satan and breaking the, the, the bondage that we brought ourselves into, the, the, um, the ownership that we gave Satan of our world, um, through obedience to him. And, um, and He has set up a revolution, a, a group of people who are now following His way to, um, to bring health and to bring healing to the world. And, um, and that ultimately, God is going to redeem all evil, and He is gonna judge evil.

Uh, evil is temporary. Um, it will one day be judged and, and ended. So that's some of the, the facts we looked at last night. So tonight, I wanna look at more, um, some helps to us for us emotionally. Sorry, that might that wasn't all up on the slide there, the review there. Um, as Lamentation says, "This I recall to mind; therefore, I have hope." That verse is in the middle of chapter 3, in the middle of a lament. Actually, a lament because of, of the effects of sin.

And, um, he begins to turn his mind to recall truths about God that help him to have hope. And that's, uh, what we want to do this evening here. Um, it's been mentioned about me sharing my story. One thing I wanna say off the bat is the only reason I have anything to share here is because it's actually God's story, um, not my story. And it's as I've given my story to God that, um, that it's become a good thing in, in, um, in my life personally and in the world around me.

And so I love this verse that this, uh, quote from Jesus in John, uh, that should actually be John chapter 8, verse 33. But he says, "He that receiveth His testimony" speaking of, of the Messiah, the human one, um, Himself. "But he that receiveth Jesus' testimony has set to His seal that God is true." The picture there is, is, uh, is a king or a ruler stamping his signet, um, in the wax, um, putting his, his own, uh, reputation, um, under what God has said. So and that's, that's what I wanna do tonight.

There's lots of things we still don't understand, but I want to personally share from my own journey, um, some truths, some things I've learned about God and my commitment, my wholehearted, enthusiastic, um, witness that God is trustworthy, He can be trusted, and He is good. Some of the things we talk about tonight, um, there's lots we don't understand about God.

But I like this little scene from, from the Chronicles of Narnia, the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, where the children are reduced or are introduced to Aslan, who is a picture of, of Christ. And the story and the subject comes up when they find out he's a lion. Is, is he safe? Well, Mr. Beaver says, "No. Don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? Of course, he isn't safe, but he is good." And I love that.

And so while there's a lot we don't understand tonight, I wanna look at some things to help us to, um, to have reasons to trust God and to choose to inform our minds and believe and orient ourselves, quiet our hearts with the fact that He is safe, even though there's much we don't understand. So the first question I wanna deal with is, is, does God care? As I as, as we're going through suffering, as we're experiencing pain in our lives, last night, we, we talked about some different kinds of pain.

And each of us, as we as, as you came and, and logged into this session, have in your own mind pain in your own life or things you've seen in the world around you that are difficult. Um, and so that's a very important question is, does God care? We're supposed to trust this guy. We're supposed to give our lives to Him. We're supposed to recklessly, um, follow His, His directions. Is this a sensible thing to do? Does He care about me, or am I expendable to Him? Um, this is something I've struggled with deeply.

Um, each of us has our own perspective as we look at suffering. And mine has been one of from, uh, fear. Um, I was raised being taught that God, uh, was irritated at me, that I was a, a pain to Him, that I was just a, um, I was a reprobate. Um, I was something that would just wouldn't I was just a person who just wouldn't respond to Him and just was bullheaded and made mistakes and was just gonna end up getting cast out. So this has been a question I wrestled with deeply, um, as I've stumbled through life.

There's a passage in Psalm 50 that I think encapsules how we often tend to feel when we look at the world. We look at things happening, and it seems like God's not doing anything about it. Here He says, uh, "When you saw a thief, you consented to him. You've been a partaker with adulterers. Um, you joined in. Um, you sat and spoke evil against thy thy brother. Thou slanderst thine own mother's son. And you did these things, and I kept silence. And so you thought that I was just like you.

I it didn't really matter." And that's the message that comes to us, that's our tendency to feel in life as we see evil just going on, oppression and suffering and, um, and wickedness going on around us, is to feel that because God's not doing something about it, that therefore, He's unaware or it doesn't bother Him. Um, He's not He's disinterested, dispassionate about it. And that is anything from the truth.

And so that's why it's important tonight we're, we're sh we're, we're digging into God's world and highlighting some things that help us to realize it's actually quite the opposite. Yesterday, we talked about the incarnation and how important that is in this whole thing, the fact that God came and lived among us.

And, um, we see that so clearly in the incarnation that God does care about us enough that He was willing to come and live in it with us, experience it with us in order to redeem, and I think also in order to show us that He cares. Um, Bill Bryant, uh, mentioned this evening in his opening comments about Him being able to be a high priest, um, who understands because He's experienced it.

And as, as the Messiah, this hero who is going to render evil, the snake, the serpent, powerless, as his, his he's developed through prophecies, through the Old Testament, we start to get this idea that's really different than a king and a conqueror. And, um, in Isaiah chapter 9, He's a wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father of His the prince of peace and of His kingdom and His government, there will be no end. But then we get we get into chapter, um, 52. Psalm 22 brings this out.

But Isaiah 52 starts talking about Him as this person who's He's not gonna be very popular, and He's not gonna be that attractive. And, um, and then s Isaiah 53 talks about Him bearing our griefs and carrying our sorrows. And his, his identity was a man of sorrow, and he was just acquainted with grief. Um, it was it just it was a major part of his life. And I think that's interesting as we think, does God care?

We ask that question, and we look at Jesus and the incarnation, the fact that God became human and lived among us, shouts, that God does care about it. And not only does He care, but He, He knows what it how it feels. We see God's care as He weeps over Jerusalem and symbolically weeps over mankind. It's not that He's dispassionate. He says, "All right, guys. Well, if you wanna be that way, knock yourselves out." But our choices to, to run from Him, to resist His goodness breaks His heart.

He care it hurts Him 'cause He desires good for us. And, um, and He cares enough about what we're doing to come and, and bear the brunt of it ourselves, to offer Himself as a hostage in our place so that we would be set free. Um, Jesus uses a metaphor there as He weeps over Jerusalem and says, "How often would I have gathered thy children together like a hen gathers her chicks under your wings, but you wouldn't let me?" And that's such a powerful picture.

Uh, there's a story that took place during the, the pioneer movement West. Uh, there was a young couple who went out and started a farm, cleared the land, and, um, planted their sod, potatoes, and everything. And one day, there was a smudge of smoke on the horizon, and they realized there was a prairie fire coming. And it was coming too fast to do anything. All they could do was gather a few possessions and run down in the well and, um, barely survive long enough for the smoke to blow over.

And so they came out, um, and everything they had put their life into was just ashes all around them. And as the young farmer was walking around dejectedly looking at the, the charred remains of, of their lives, um, he as he was walking along, there was a, a pile of char there, um, in front of him, and he just kinda kicked it with his foot in dejection. And, and as the as the charred remains flew out, ran all these fluffy little yellow chicks safe because the hen had called them to her.

And she bore, as, uh, like the songwriter says, um, about Christ, "The powers of hell have done their worst." Um, He gave Himself for evil to, to bring its ultimate destruction on, um, rather than us. And in that, um, dispersed their legions, as the songwriter says. And so we sing hallelujah. Um, but it's not just because He brought us victory, but we see God's love and His care for us that He was willing to come in by Himself and provide freedom from the slavery we sold ourselves into.

The incarnation is tremendously precious to me. As I as, as we go through Christmases, um, over the last couple of years, and there's all of the family celebrations and, and, and holiday shopping and, um, decorations and, and all the Christmas cheer and everything, I, uh, I'm a little detached from that world. Um, I don't have some of those things in my life, um, very much.

But one thing that I, I like to sit and just be, be still and think about is this fact that amid all that, the real story is a God who came, and He came in a sheep stable that smelled like sheep manure. And, um, there, He was born and lived a lowly life, a life of suffering, um, a life of rejection in order to associate with us and redeem us. So God that's one thing. In the incarnation, it just shouts. The whole thing shouts that God really does care about us, um, very deeply.

I wanna turn back to Lamentation and look at another characteristic of God that often is, is brushed aside or, or just probably just becomes cliché to us. It gets used so much that it loses its meaning to us. But Lamentation chapter, uh, 3, verse 22 is often quoted. There's the famous song, "Great is thy faithfulness," based on this verse. "It's of the Lord's mercies that, that we are not consumed because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning.

Great is thy faithfulness." And I love I love that song, "Great is thy faithfulness." But the song talks about God's mercies that are new every morning. And we'll talk about that in a minute. But it says, "His compassions fail not." And it says, "They," His mercy and His compassion, "are new every morning." So every day, God feels deeply for us in a new way. Um, and that is touching to me, that God isn't just, uh, a big, tough guy that is merciful, but He has compassion. He feels with us.

And those are truths we have to hold onto by faith. There's times when it doesn't seem that way, and we have to take the things we do see of His goodness in the world, the truth of His incarnation, and realize that God does feel for us. Another thing then is God's God's mercy, that God is rich in mercy. And my animations are not, uh, going in the order I want here, so you get the whole scoop here. Um, but God is not just merciful, which means He doesn't want to give us what we deserve, but He's rich in mercy.

And what's interesting to me is that the part of the Bible that people tend to look at and say God is mean and ugly and nasty, the Old Testament, that actually, if you want to read about God's mercy, read the Old Testament. And that's the conclusions that are given in the Psalms and different times. And that's just the picture is, yes, there's times where God brings judgment or allows them to reap what they have sowed, a small part, to try to get them to repent. Excuse me.

But, but it's about God putting up with these people and letting them go and, and giving them a little bit to try to wake them up. He God, God doesn't want them to reap the destruction that they're asking for. So we ask, is God fair? Well, no, God isn't fair. God's merciful. Uh, we'll talk about that some more a little bit later. Um, but God is rich in mercy. He does really doesn't want to give us, um, what we deserve, thinking of when we are suffering because of, of our own of our own sin, our own failure.

I wanna look at some more things from that, that passage. And again, I wanna highlight that Lamentation is a book written in lament of the suffering that Israel was experiencing because of their rejection of God and their, um, continually turning to the gods of this world. So we already looked at verse 21. And I think that's supposed to be verse 25 there. "The Lord is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeketh for Him." So this is something that takes time.

We have to endure in seeking after God and trusting Him. "It's good for a man. It's good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord. It's good for a man that he should bear the yoke in his youth. He sit alone and keep his silence because he has borne it upon him." So the, the, the, the man in his lament is also saying that this does some good things to us. "For the Lord will not cast off forever.

But though He caused grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. For He does not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men to crush under His feet all the prisoners of the earth, to turn aside the right of a man before the face of the Most High, to subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not." God's point isn't to crush us and smear us into dirt and, and beat us down.

Um, it's His mercy, the things that we, we do experience as a result of evil in our lives, whether it's our own or others. And one thing that's through here all over is God's compassion, and God feels for it even when it is something that's because of our, our choices, and we're reaping, uh, a portion of that. "Does it matter? Does it matter if God cares?" There are some people who deal with, with pain or encourage others to deal with this pain. You just need to grow up.

You just need to buck up and just get over it and move on. It's, it's a tough world, and you just gotta handle it. Um, I am gonna push back really strongly against that because stuffing things, just bottling it up and just shoving it down, trying to deny it, trying to push it out of the way, just leave it leave it go, and toughening up, it for one, it bottles up things that will explode later. You're not dealing with it. It's still there. It's unresolved. And eventually, it, it comes out.

And also, this has become really important to me. It kills a part of you that senses another's pain. When we don't grieve and lament and find healing of things in our lives and find comfort in God's care for us, um, we then are gonna tend to become stiff and hard towards others' pain and often end up creating, um, more suffering in their lives. Learning to cry, on the other hand, on our Heavenly Father's shoulder leaves nothing in the closet you can't face. And it also fills you with a comfort to radiate to others.

So people who have faced their suffering by crying and grieving and, um, not as an orphan but on their Heavenly Father's shoulder and learning to live in the reality of His love and His compassion and His security for them, that as, um, as Jesus tells His disciples in John chapter 16, He is not leaving us orphans, um, comfortless, but that we have a Father who is with us and watching over us, cares about what we're going through, and is, is bringing good through it.

Um, that gives us something then to offer others to, um, to help them to heal. So I think it is a big deal that we come to the point where we allow ourselves to be we allow God's care, His compassion, His tenderness towards us in our suffering, um, to, to become reality to us. Uh, I know that's still a journey for me, but I know that has transformed my own leadership, um, tremendously. So if God cares, what is God doing about evil? Is God doing anything about evil?

Last night, we talked about that, that well, if, if God is good and He cares, maybe the problem is He can't do anything about it. And how is it that He cares, but He's not doing anything about it? That doesn't make sense. Well, the fact is, God is. Romans 1:18 says, "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness." And that's talking about things that happen now.

The passage goes on to talk about how, um, people who, who pursue worshiping the Creator, the creature instead of the Creator, um, begin to reap in their own on their own flesh, their, their physical life now. Um, they begin to reap consequences for that choice. They don't get off scot-free. I like this quote from Charles Dickens' book, um, Oliver Twist.

And for those of you who know the story, um, Bill in there, um, Bill Sykes, um, murders his wife, Nancy, and then runs off and tries to evade the police and, um, justice. And he's but everywhere he turns, he's, he's being haunted by this apparition of his wife coming after him and calling him and saying, "I loved you. I was faithful to you." And, um, and Dickens turns to his, his reader then as a narrator and says this, "Let no man talk of murderers escaping justice and hit that providence most sleep.

There were 20 score of violent deaths in that one in one long minute of that agony of fear." Um, a very wise observation about the reality in the world that all is not as it seems. And people who do evil, who use others and seem to reign, they, they, they get they get what they want in the world, it's not that way. Um, that takes faith to believe.

But, um, there's a rottenness that begins to eat at them, and they begin to live hell, um, now, just like those who choose to follow Jesus begin to, um, live heaven's way now. This has been a source of sad comfort to me and also has been a tool for me to be able to comfort others who look and say, "That man did that to my little girl," or whatever it is, "and, and he's getting away with it," um, is to realize with, with a with a horror that he's not getting away with it.

Um, even now in his life, he is sowing acid that is eating away at him. So God is not doing nothing about it. It's not that evil gets away. God is merciful to all, but, um, all begin to reap, um, some of what they sow. And then also, God is in the end, God is going to defeat evil. Paul writes to the Thessalonian Church, a church that was, um, just under a lot of distress because of persecution.

And he says this, "And to you who are troubled, rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." I don't understand how all it's gonna work with the judgment and, and eternal, um, destinies, but we know that there is coming a time where, um, God will meet out justice and vengeance on evil and evil beings. And so evil is a temporary thing.

Um, there is coming a time where everything is going to be set to rights. Uh, that's the idea of justice. Another question that many people struggle with, I struggle with deeply, is, is God punishing me? So when, when bad things happen in my life, unfortunate things or disappointments or wrongs happen to me, is God punishing me? This is what I was brought up being taught to believe, that everything that happens is God's kicking me in the rear.

Um, um, He's it's retribution for my the supposed awful choices and hard-hardness that, um, I was told I had growing up. The reality is, as, uh, Psalm 103 says, "If Thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, who shall stand?" If God was had an agenda to, to get even with us or, or pay us back, um, in full what we have what we have have, uh, sowed by our by our actions, there we would we would all be vaporized.

Or I don't know how that would work, but we would just we would experience the fullness of eternal damnation immediately. And so even if it is that we are being chased and we're disciplined, um, we're reaping something that we have sowed, um, it's not about God getting even with us. "The Lord is merciful," more verses from Psalm 103. "The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in mercy. He has not dealt with us according to our sins nor punished us according to our iniquities.

For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward them that fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities His children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame. He remembers that we are dust." So again, even if it is that what we're experiencing in life is reaping for what we've sowed, it's always in mercy.

And it's actually out of God's God is limiting, and He's His, His heart towards us is that He doesn't want us to experience, um, what comes to us. "He knows our frame. He remembers that we are dust." That verse right there marks a turning point in my life. I think it was around 16.

I remember reading that verse that, "As a father pities His children, so the Lord pities them who fear Him." And that was just not what I saw in my world, um, pity and understanding that we're, we're just we're children or we're teenagers, and we're, um, we didn't choose to come into the world and go through this stage in life. And so I thought, either God's full of baloney when He says that, or else there's something real out there. There God is something that is not what I am seeing. And that I just I don't know.

It wasn't out of my good necessarily, but I chose to, to seek after that. I chose to believe there was something real. There was a God out there that was not what I was being shown and not being taught and, and began to reach out to Him to find that true, true reality.

And, um, I guess that has characterized my life in a lot of ways as I see things that the Bible tends says, "This is what it's supposed to be like." And I don't see that even in the Christian world, to choose rather than to give up and to turn aside and throw it all out because of that, to choose to believe that there is something real. There's a third way and to find it.

I'm not professing to do any better than anybody else, but I'll, I'll die trying rather than throw it out because I believe there is something real there. There is a God who is a Father who does pity and understands and feels for us. And as I've come to realize that about God, it's also changed my leadership then as I relate to those who are weaker or younger than I am. But God is not punishing us as in getting even with us.

Um, Revelation, He says this to one of the churches, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous, therefore, and repent." So whatever God does allow in our life, if it is something that is because we are reaping something that we have sowed, it's never to crush us, as Lamentations said, to just grind us down and push us into the dirt. It's always to wake us up and give us an opportunity to turn back to Him. There's always an exit that goes up, um, in any situation, wherever we're at in life.

So summing up some lessons from it, God has no interest in making us pay for what we've done or getting even with us. That's just not God's agenda in life at all. And if He would, we would it, it would be over instantly. But at the same time, God does correct and train us through all of life. Sometimes His correction is a mistake we've made. Sometimes it's not. There's nothing we've done wrong.

It's simply we live in a world where, because of free will, people can choose to be good or they can choose to be evil, and we suffer the effects of that. And yet God has redeemed that. We're gonna talk about that in a little bit. And so God uses those things as training in our lives, um, things to, to shape us, to soften us, to break us, to help us to learn. Um, you don't make a Navy SEAL by having him sit on a couch and eat potato chips.

Um, and so as in the same way as we wanna become warriors for God, we wanna become people who own God's story and own God's truth. It's through it's through suffering, um, that we are trained. God's chastising is not just correction or not just spanking but instruction and, um, quality time and tough lessons to develop and grow us. So God corrects and trains us through all of life.

And whatever's happening to us, whether it's whether it is reaping a little bit of what we've sown or whether it's not, it's just something that's happening to us because of the evil in the world we live in. Um, the point, a purpose of it always is to draw us up to make us something better. One question that comes with that is, what about people who don't know better or on a personal level? What if what is it?

Maybe there's something I don't know that I'm doing wrong, and God's just sitting there saying, "No, you keep getting this one wrong." And, uh, maybe you haven't struggled with that picture of God. I'm sure some of you have. And, and that was something I deeply battled with. Um, like, somehow, I was supposed to study for something on the test, and I didn't know about it, and I just kept getting it wrong.

This verse is very simple but brought a lot of peace to me about that on a personal level as well as on a on a global level as we think about primitive peoples who have never heard the gospel. When Peter, um, visits Cornelius and hears his story about how God sent the angel and reached out to, to, um, to Cornelius in a unique way, he says this, now I'm paraphrasing here, "Now I realize that God doesn't have favorites.

But in every nation, the one who respects God and does what He knows is right is accepted by Him." And that's the Father that we have is He's somebody who that's what He's looking for. Um, Isaiah chapter 66, I think it's verse 2, says that, "To this man will I look, to him that is poor of a contrary spirit and trembles at my word." So God is a rewarder of those who are seeking Him. And if we have a heart, we, we want to do what's right. We want to honor Him.

Um, we're acceptable to Him, and God will lead us just like He did Cornelius on, on a journey of, of growing. God is a redeemer. This is one of the most precious, um, characteristics of God, um, partly because this is what brought me to a turning point in my own life. Basically summing that up, or to redeem something is to take something that should be destroyed it was on a path for destruction into, to save it from that and turn it into something beautiful, something good.

And God, in His character, is so good that evil even evil, when it touches Him, it becomes good. Um, so I've already shared a little bit about the perspective I had on God growing up. Um, I was I was raised in a very religious setting, um, in many ways not Christ-like, um, on different scores. I grew up in a home we were my parents are from non-Mennonite background. We were almost eight, and we first moved to the first, um, Mennonite church. And, uh, there were a lot of issues in, in, in my family.

My father especially had a, a horrendous anger problem. And, um, and along with that, there was a lot of, um, perversion that, um, that went on, um, molestation and things like that as well as phy-physical and verbal abuse. Um, just was, um, just like the bath that, that, that our family was, was steeped in. I've already shared a little bit about the, uh, the perspective of God that was, was hammered into me along with a lot of scripture.

And, um, and so through the, the things that were taught to me about God and about myself and the voice coming from the circumstances, the things that were done to me, the way things happened in my life, I developed this, this a, a deep depression and a self-hate, a self-loathing. Um, from the time I was 13, I began struggling with suicide. I would take a knife and push it against my chest until it made a mark. I didn't have the quite the guts to go all the way through it.

But that was something that just lurked all the time, just a, a, a self-loathing and self-hate. And, um, um, I'm, I'm a very sensitive person by nature, uh, from the from the inside. And so I'm I tend to be very rather pensive. And I take things seriously. And I've had a very sensitive conscience.

And so I just struggled tremendously with fear and, um, to the point of, of being, um, a nervous wreck at times, um, even though probably most people even up until the last several years, probably most people don't know it because I'm the type I s I'll steal myself when I'm in public. Um, I just can't let it get the best of me. But it eats at you from underneath. And, um, the church situations we were in were very difficult.

Um, church got involved with my family, and for whatever reasons, um, just did not see through things. And us children got blamed. We got told we were all the problem. And if we would just, um, submit, then all our family's problems would, would end. Um, my parents had I grew up with fighting and arguing, um, and that kind of thing all the time. And so as I grew up, I, I, I began to aspire to a different God and a different life. But, um, I left home, and I and I hoped to, to change some of those things.

I hoped church would be different. I hoped that I could get married and experience, um, warmth and, and blessing and closeness in relationships. And those things didn't materialize. Um, I left home, and I ended up I lived with and worked with a man that was abusive and, and angry and, and come to find out later was into some of the same things as was went on in my own family. And, um, some of the things that went on in my own family, I didn't know about until after I left home.

And that was just devastating to find out that that kind of, of perversion had gone on. And, um, and all those voices just told me, "You're junk. You're just there's something wrong with you. You didn't you fell off the conveyor line. And God doesn't pay any attention to you or else you're, you're doing something wrong, and you're just not good enough for Him." And I struggled deeply with, with depression and suicide.

And it was finally one time after I got balled out by my, my boss and the guy I was living with, uh, until about 12:30 one night, I finally just sat there and just cried and, uh, slept for a few hours and got up in the morning about 5 o'clock to go help the farmer I was working for. And, um, um, I have never felt Satan so close to me as in the truck that morning driving through the, the early morning hours. And I just I was just done with it. I was sick of being a boxing bag.

And, um, and just a frustration and a and a hate for myself and for life just grew and grew. And finally, I got out on, uh, more open road, and I just I was just gonna end it. And I just hit the pedal and just held it to the floor. And the last time I looked at the speedometer, it was on the high side of 90. And it was a 90-degree tur-turn coming up that was lined with oak trees. And I was just gonna just smash into it and just, as they say, end everything.

And somewhere through the fog of my insanity, um, I'd be ashamed to tell you what was going on in that truck. I mean, I was I was done. I was frustrated. I was angry. I was yelling and pounding the steering wheel. And I was just I was sick of it all. And, um, somewhere through that insanity I was in, God shone enough light into my mind to help me to remember it wasn't gonna be the end. And I'm not sure how, but somehow, I made it around that curve and went on to struggle and grow through with life.

Um, and, um, through the next couple of years, there was some courtship difficulties and disappointments. The church had a massive eruption of problems. We didn't have communion for two and a half years. And there was just things that were right, simple, clear things that were right and wrong were being shoved under the rug and dishonesty about it because of political connections and just where is God in that kind of stuff when the church, the pillar and ground of the truth is, is full of corruption?

Um, when the leaders who are to give life and nurture are the ones showering criticism and, and, um, and, um, and not being honest about what's going on, how, how are we supposed to see God? And so I walked into Bible school in 2007, was encouraged by somebody who meant a lot to me. I know they really cared about me. And so I, I went I, I still wanna do what was right, but I was just I was just dry. I just felt like God all God ever did was kick me in the face.

It didn't matter how hard I tried to, to be good enough for Him. And I was with church, I was just fed up. If I would have had a clue where there was someplace decent that didn't have church problems, I'd have been out of there on a shower, ravel shouting, praising the Lord. And, um, so that was Wednesday evening. The Bible school started. And, um, it was a good environment. Um, Saturday evening, um, there was a family there. And I think they're listening on the talk here tonight, um, that saying.

And then another brother, um, shared a devotional from Ephesians chapter 2, verse 10. And Ephesians chapter 2 talks about how we were dead in trespasses and saying, "We walked according to the course of this world. We were enemies in our minds by wicked works and children of wrath." And then God, who is rich in mercy, um, quickened us, made us alive, and has cleansed us and lifted us up and made us to be children of God.

And then it says in verse 10, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand that we should walk in them." And the highlight of the devotional was that word workmanship. And, um, that word workmanship is the Greek word, uh, poema, which is where we get our word poem from. And it means a product, something produced, in essence, a fabric. I like that picture. It's something woven and created, um, together. But it's simply it's artwork, basically.

It's the expression of a craftsman. Uh, it's the same term used in Romans 1:20 when it says, "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the poema," that His artwork, His the things which He has made, even, even His eternal power and Godhead. And the, uh, the truth that was brought out there from that passage is that when we surrender to God, we become His artwork.

Uh, we become a demonstration not of the abuse and the, the, uh, corrosion of the world in our environment and even our own mistakes, but we become a demonstration of His skill, His passion, and His purpose, His goodness and beauty. And for some reason, I was at a point where I was ready for that. And it was like a little beam of light came down from heaven, and I realized that God had been wanting to write a story in my life, and I had been fighting it.

And that's where, really, for the first time, I latched a hold of that truth. And I bowed before God and said, "God, I, I, I surrender. I give up. I, I'm okay with You writing a story in my life through some very difficult things. And I wanna surrender to that. My job from here out is to surrender, to, to accept what You allow. And it's Your job to bring good through it. And I don't have to understand all that." That was the beginning of a turning point in my life.

Um, my perspective about the happenings in my life began to change. That's when the suicide left me. Um, working through depression has been a long journey since that's something that I still get tempted with. Honestly, this morning, I woke up, and the first impression, we just a kick in the gut. Like, I you just did something really stupid last night. Um, but I've learned how to fight that. And I know I know where that voice comes from. And I began to reach out to God.

I began to give thanks and just tell myself the truth, what I know the truth is about what God's been doing in my life.

Um, and so that's been a very exciting journey, um, to move out of that darkness and to be to grow and overcome that, that despair and that, that cloud of, of depression and condemnation and, um, and be able to grow in my security in God and in my Heavenly Father's love and be able to handle things that there's tests that have happened this spring in the last six months, things that I never would have been able to go through before. But God has been growing me.

And, and with His help, I'm able to be I'm able to actually be able to grow through them. So that's, that's tremendously encouraging. Probably most people look at those things, and they blink because I don't appear as being a, a, a, a shaky, scared person. Um, but God knows there's deep struggles. And we can share the joy of, of the journey and the growth, um, that He's doing in my life, um, through that. So that, that passage is incredibly, um, precious to me.

Um, and that's why I can share my stories because I've given it to God and allowed it to be His story. And, um, and it's as we step out in faith and we trust His goodness and we let Him take control instead of fighting Him and running from Him about the things in our lives, whether it's the shape of our nose or whether it's our family or whether it's, um, whatever it is that we look at and we wish it wasn't that way.

When we give that stuff to God, it, it becomes something that He uses, and He creates something beautiful from it. So with that is the passage, Romans 8:28, that's often quoted. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God. And we should read that verse like that. We should say, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose." Most of the time when this verse is quoted, we stop at the first part.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God. Well, when people look at their life, then they say, "How in the world is this working together for good?" Well, we need to read the whole passage. We need to read the context. And if we keep going, we find out that it's to those who surrender to His purposes. And we don't even wanna stop there. Let's go to the next verse. So whatever He allows is because He has good design through it for those who yield to His purposes.

But in the next verse, we find out the King James says, "For whom He did foreknow them, also He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son." So God knew ahead of time the choices people were gonna make. And He has worked everything together so that those who yield to His purposes can become like Jesus. And, see, that adjusts a lot of things in my life because that was my problem is I had purposes for my life. I just wanted to be normal.

I wanted to, to get away from this cloud of family reputation that surrounded the name Shiley and, and just settle down and go to a nice midnight church and have a nice little business and a nice piece of property and marry a nice woman and have a nice family and just I just wanted to be normal. And God had other things in mind. And God wanted to use some very difficult experiences to shape me and to trim things off of me so that I become more like Jesus.

And it's as I as I give up my agenda for my life, and I let Him do whatever He wants because I know that He's gonna make me more like Jesus, that then, then I can see the good that comes through those difficult things. One thing that needs to get talked about with this whole thing about God working things out for good is, is what do we believe about determinism or foreknowledge and, and sovereignty, predestination, all that stuff? I'm not gonna go into a, a, a long theological debate on that.

But I'm just gonna tell you basically what I do believe. If you wanna learn more about that, listen to David Burceau's message on, on what the early church believed about predestination. And you'll learn there some aware some concepts about determinism. In other words, that God has a will for your a plan for your life, and you have to you're supposed to marry that person and live at that house and that God has the script written. Um, God does not write ours or others' script. He does allow free choice.

He invites us to the stage and shows us what's going on and lets us choose to become partners with Him as the protagonist or to be partners with the antagonist, um, as we interact with, with others and on, on the stage of His world. Um, He does know the choices we and others will make. And He weaves. I like that picture, not that He controls them, but in through our choices, He weaves things together through it to bring good for those who choose to humble themselves and follow Him. God is a redeemer.

Um, I love the story of Job in this, this whole thing and Job's journey. Um, there's a couple of people that I'm being sentimental here. Don't take theology out of this. But it but when I get to heaven, I would love to just give them a big hug and a slap on the back and say, "Thanks for sticking it out." And two of them are Job and Joseph. Uh, we'll run into Joseph later. But in the book of Job, we have sort of played out on a in one man's life the big picture of what's going on.

And we're introduced to Job as someone perfect and upright. Um, he's not the kind of guy that there's any reason for God to bring any sort of punishment, if you please, into his life. There's nothing apparently nothing to be corrected. And yet, Job loses everything. And Job screams out in some of the most gut-wrenching and yet beautiful lament and pours out his heart to God. And he says, "God, you I'm almost losing my sanity. You bother me in the night. And, and during the daytime, I can't think straight.

And you can't you leave me alone long enough to let me swallow my spit?" I love the way he's honest and point-blank about his feelings with God and yet turns in, in respect and trust. Um, Job asks, "Why?" And, uh, finally, God shows up in a in a whirlwind and takes Job on a virtual nature walk. I think that's significant. We're gonna talk about that in a minute. Um, and Job finally has a chance. God stops and says, "By the way, you, you had some questions." And Job just says, "No. I'm, I'm good.

I'm realizing that you operate in a in a in a world that I, I don't even know how to start relating to, trying to figure out when all the deer are gonna have their, their fawns and how snow gets made and, um, how to handle a herd of, of T. rexes or brontosauruses or whatever you wanna say leviathan and, and beamoth are." And Job finally has a chance to ask his questions. But Job doesn't have any questions anymore. They're not important enough to ask.

And in the end, um, Job never asks his questions, but he doesn't need to. And I think it's because he has learned that he can trust God. He has learned he has become to realize that God has things going on. God has wisdom. God, God, um, has a way of carrying out His designs that Job can't even scratch the surface of.

And so he, he says, "With the with the hearing of the ear, I've heard of You, but now my eye sees You." Um, he has known come to know God in a whole new way and trusted that God is good and God is going to bring good through this. And the book of Job closes where we see a healing and a restoration coming, um, in Job's world, um, in the end.

And so this is an important truth to understand about evil, pain, suffering that happens to us is that when Satan tries to do evil, he unwittingly does God's work in those whose hearts are turned towards Him. Um, and so evil turns to good once a person chooses to listen to God and follow God and surrender to His goodness, believe and trust, um, in His goodness. Evil actually ends up doing good. Another thing from the book of Job about this is we really don't really want answers. We want a person.

Just knowing why, we say, "God, why is this happening?" But if God would tell us why, for one, we probably wouldn't understand. And number two, it still wouldn't help because this is an emotional issue. This isn't an issue about intellect. And we say, "Oh, okay. So, you know, I know that if you cut my hand off, it's gonna be better for me. So now it doesn't hurt." No. That's not the way it is. We want a person. Um, the answer to pain and suffering is that God shows us Himself.

And we come to realize that we have a good Father who is with us and is going to redeem what is happening. Um, it's going to be okay in the end. Things are not out of control. Psalm 48:11 says, "For the Lord God is a sun and shield. The Lord will give grace and glory. No good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly." My life journey didn't end with in 2007 with Bible school. And there's been a lot of heartaches and disappointments since. And this is something I've had to learn to, to grapple with.

And in reality, I have had to choose to, to believe and act upon. The antithesis of this, that God will not withhold good from those who walk uprightly, is that if God is withholding something from us, then it must be that He knows it's not good for us at this time. There's something better. I like this picture for those of you who can't see the, the screen. There is a, a girl standing there holding a little teddy bear in front of her.

And the traditional Jesus is standing kneeling in front of her, reaching out, asking for her to give up the teddy bear. And He has this almost life-sized teddy bear behind Him. And He's saying, "Trust me. I have something better for you." And the little girl is saying, "But I like this one." And I love that picture because part of part of what we have to do in this whole thing is we have to become a child, recognize that we're a child, and humble ourselves before God and trust Him.

And I see I see myself in that picture that as adults as an adult, I, I'm the same way. And I say, "God, why can't I have this? I wanted this. It would be so good." And I don't realize that God has something better for me, not necessarily the thing I wanted maybe, but He has a better thing to work in my life through it. And He's asking me to give up my hold on what I want in order to give me something better. Um, but it takes it takes trust to be able to realize that.

I love this, um, this, um, outburst in the beginning of Isaiah 64. He says, "Oh, that you would run the heavens and come down." And He goes on, talks about how God used to came down and made the mountains smoke and straighten everything out, came riding in and fixed all our problems. Um, but then He says, "For since the beginning of the world, men have not heard nor perceived by the ear.

Neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside the what He has prepared for those who wait for Him." And, um, that's the challenge that I've had to accept in my life is it's really my choice. Am I going to get disillusioned with God and give up on Him or stumble through life holding Him at a distance because I don't think He's He's being fair with me?

Or am I going to surrender to Him and allow Him to love me through the things that have happened, the things that continue to happen, and live to wait to, to walk with Him and to follow Him, to obey Him and see the good that will come in the end? Or am I gonna flip the switch and clock out and live with the with the devastation that, that I'm seeing around me? The question is in this is can we trust God? So God's Word says God is good. And, and, and, uh, you know, we can read Bible verses.

But when we look at the world around us and we the things that we were feeling, we're experiencing when we're in pain, we're in suffering, and there's evil going on around us, doesn't look good. It doesn't look like someone we can trust. Is there something tangible that we can cantilever our faith on, um, something some evidence that shows us something good that we can that we can build our faith on? Because faith is not blind. It but it, it calculates from what it can see and can know into what it cannot.

Well, God says that, um, what may be known of God is manifest in them, um, that's the created world. Well, actually, that's talking about humans in their consciences. "For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen being understood by the things which are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." So God tells us, "Look at what I have made, and you will see who I am." Um, the things He has made are His artwork.

And that's what artwork is, is, is the expression of the artwork, His character, His values, His vision, His dreams. And so I have found this incredibly, uh, blessing in my own life that's part of my forays into science, apologetics, evidence for God, and, um, those kind of things.

Even my, um, some of those of you who know me, my, um, venturing into the world of photography was part of, of this journey of looking at the world, the creation of God, and being able to get a tangible picture of my Heavenly Father and His goodness. I wanna share one, uh, one that is of particular interest to me. And that is, um, the picture of God as a redeemer in the Hubble Ultra Deep Field project. Um, for those of you who can't see the screen, the Hubble telescope is a satellite telescope.

It's the biggest and bestest that man has, has developed, um, to date. And so they did this project where they, they pointed it out a spot in the night sky as close to the Big Dipper. It's about the amount of sky that would hide behind a grain of sand between your fingers. If you hold a grain of sand there and put it out at arm's length, about the amount of sky that would hide behind that. Um, and there was nothing there, um, through the naked eye and through the through lesser telescopes.

They couldn't see anything there. And they decided to put the Hubble telescope there for a few days with some really good filters and processing and see if there was anything out there. Well, um, this is what they saw in that dark spot. And for those of you who can't see on the screen, it is a picture that is full of not just stars but mostly galaxies, spiral galaxies that have at a minimum tens of thousands of stars each. And they've done computer calculations, uh, on that picture.

And the estimation is that there's approximately 10,000 galaxies in that picture, in that dark spot, that little bit of dark sky that we can't see anything in, um, that would hide behind that grain of sand between your fingers at arm's length. In that dark spot, that's what God has going on. They say it's approximately enough stars for everyone on planet Earth to own, give or take, around 3 trillion each.

Um, I love that picture because if God's showing in His creation things He has going on that we have no idea about, where we see blackness and nothing, God has more going on than what we can see. And that's been a comfort to me. I've often prayed to God, the God of the Hubble Ultra Deep Field project, um, as I've looked at the blackness in my life where I can't see anything good coming out of it, um, and trust that He is good. I'm not a derelict. I'm not an orphan, um, left to grow up for myself.

But He does have purpose and intent in my life, um, and is going to bring good out of it. And I've lived long enough I'm thankful to be able to say I've lived long enough and began to trust God in these things long enough I'm beginning to experience the good out of it. And that strengthens my faith as I look back and I see things. In a lot of ways, my seven years teaching school was a little bit of a microcosm of life.

And I'm able to look back and see, um, some extremely difficult things I went through, some students that were incredibly difficult. And the good the, the things that if I would have given up or, or got mad and thrown things to the wind or in, in, in the in the middle of it, I would have missed out on so much.

And I wanna allow that to continue to bolster my faith and help me to learn to keep surrendering to God, to rest in Him when I face difficult things, when I face those fears that I'm gonna be a failure and a disaster, um, to trust that I will have things to learn. Um, there will be things that will come in life to, to bring me to brokenness. But that God is going to do good, um, in my life as I continue to, to reach out to Him reaching out to me. Another one, um, these are just some top favorites of mine.

Um, there's lots of other fingerprints of God and creation that I love is the Mandelbrot set. For those of you who, um, can't see the screen, that's spelled M-A-N-D-E-L-B-R-O-T. It's like, uh, George Fredrick Handel, except it's Mandel and then B-R-O-T at the end, the Mandelbrot set. Um, if you, um, search online for The Secret Code of Creation by Jason Lyle, um, you can, um, learn about that. It's a set of numbers that the, the, the image you see on the sc on the screen is nothing, literally. I cried.

And it just blew my mind what God has packed into this obscure set of numbers that we didn't even run into till the '80s. Um, check that out sometime if you wanna spend some time worshiping God as you view His handiwork in the abstract world of, of numbers. So the important thing is we need to realize that part of our problem as we look at suffering and pain in the world is our context. And our context is so small. And, um, so just simple things like a rainy day. Is a rainy day good or bad?

Well, it depends who it is. Are we a farmer who's praying for crops so that we can make ends meet or so we can survive in some parts of the world, we have food to eat? Or are we the vacationer who's having to sit under the tent instead of, you know, fishing out on the lake or whatever? Um, it depends on our perspective. And what maybe, maybe, um, less than ideal for us is actually a blessing for somebody else or vice versa. Our context tends to be me, my lifetime, and the people I care about.

And that's not a good reflection on me because so I'm, I'm upset because the people close to me in my life, it's not ideal for. But maybe it actually is a being of a salvation to somebody else. The life of Joseph is an example of this. Um, Joseph transformed the evil into good by his choice to follow God and be soft.

And he's such a beautiful and such a healing person in his relationship with his brothers and in providing sustenance for the for the known world at the time, basically, um, by choosing to surrender to God and remain soft through the devastation. And the if there was somebody in the Bible story that it didn't pay, it didn't appear to pay to, to honor God and to be a man of integrity, it was Joseph. He just he got punished for it every step of the way. And I'm thankful for his example there.

Um, he waited and kept on faithfully trusting God. And, and just tremendous beauty and good came out of his life. So our context is the, uh is, is often the problem we look at right now.

And we get we get distressed and, and disillusioned and frustrated and upset, um, rather than being willing to be a child and say, "Look, God has more in mind than right now." And as we listen to His Word, things are going to all turn for good if we if we choose to embrace His purpose of us becoming more like Jesus and being able to be part of Jesus' revolution.

Satan wants us to look at the casket and think, "This is it." Um, last weekend, I, I s-stood with my brother and his and his wife's family as they buried their father, a tr man who was a tremendous blessing and nurture in, in his family and in the in the community and in the broader, uh, context of his life. And you look at the casket of a man who died, um, bled to death and his features were not normal and just such an ugly ending to such a beautiful person.

And Satan wants us to look at those things in our life, our dashed hopes, um, the, the, the pain, the wrong done to us, and say, "This is where it gets you, fallen God." And we need eyes of faith to look beyond that and trust and follow God, um, into the good that He has designed. The question is, when do we when do we clock out on God? When do we say, "All right, God. I'm gonna give you one more try. And if you don't this time. Sorry. I'm just gonna have to quit." You just, um we, we can't do that.

Um, we follow along. And we, we have to stick with Him and, um, surrender ourselves to Him and, and follow to see what the end is going to be of His goodness. Pain also is has blessings, um, if we are exercised by it. C.S. Lewis said that God whispers to us in our pleasure, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts to us in our pains. It's His megaphone to rouse a deaf, deaf world.

Pain lets us know we have a problem, that there's a problem going on in the world so that we can avoid it ourselves, correct it if it's something that is, is indeed in our lives. And, um, and so we can be more aware of how to be partners with Jesus in, um, in redeeming it, showing God's love, bringing God's healing, and, um, avoiding being part of that by following Jesus and His commandments and living His way in the world. I like the words of this song.

The title of it is The Wound Is Where the Light Gets In by Jason Gray. "I was halfway up the mountain when the rocks I held gave way. I came tumbling like an avalanche to the bottom where I lay. And with a taste of blood and the twist of bone, my healing could begin 'cause the wound is where the light gets in. I have stood there like a hostage with a knife held to my vein, captive to the poison that I took to numb the pain. 'Cause everybody wishes they were born with thicker skin.

But the wound is where the light gets in." I love that, that verse. It's such a picture of what happens when we pull away from God and we look to other things to save our pain. And we end up being held hostage to something that is, is sapping the very life from us often as we look for something to save our pain because we pull away from God. It's tricky how the heart works when the breakups and the big jerks make us never wanna hurt that way again. Maybe I'm naive.

But in every scar, I see the place where love is trying to break in 'cause the wound is where the light gets in. You can recognize a saint by the scars. They don't disguise. You can pick out a real sinner by the kindness in their eyes. And that gives me someone who has been accepted and seen the fact that they have contributed to the evil in the world. So if you're stumbling in the dark and bleeding at the shin, remember, the wound is where the light gets in.

I probably listened to that song about 40 times when I first discovered it and did some real crying and repenting and, and just opening my life up to God as I just recognized that again, that it's the pain, the suffering that I've experienced, the difficult things in my life where it's God knocking and wanting me to give up to allow Him to come in and, and be part of my life and bring healing and bring, bring change to me through it. Pain limits evil, the curse.

Um, we, we refer to thorns and all that kind of stuff as the curse. Um, and yes, it was a curse. But in a lot of ways, it simply limited man's ability to sit around and create evil. If we didn't have to spend so much of our life just trying to survive, imagine the evil and the and the, the clever perversions and tortures for each other that we would cook up. I mean, just think about boys who sit around and think of ways to tease their sisters.

And if they didn't have any, anything to do and, and then put that on the global scale for all of us, it's in so many ways, even the curse of, of work and things is was a mercy, um, to limit evil. Um, people can only do so much evil because in the end, they're it's gonna come back and bite them. Pain reminds us our hearts that this is not our home pain. If we let it, it wakes us up to the reality that there's, there's more to this. This is not the end. Things are not okay here.

And God wants us to, to live here in a way we can be part of something better and greater, a redemption of it that's coming. Pain is the anvil on which character is formed. There are books written. There are life stories about this besides my own. Many of you could probably share stories. But even Jesus, it says, He became complete or perfect, um, through suffering. And the pain is the anvil on which character is formed. And pain is eclipsed in the good it produces.

The Bible refers to a mother bringing forth child and, um, the, the labor pains. And she forgets it the moment the baby is, is born. And she has the delight of, of, uh, the being able to meet the new life she's been carrying. Um, in so many ways, in the end, if we if we wait this out and we follow God and trust Him and obey Him through this, this life, um, the same will happen for us. The solution to evil. We talked about this yesterday. But I think this is incredibly important.

We say, "Is God doing anything about this? What is the solution to evil?" And Christianity has reduced it down to that God wants to get us out of here because this whole thing is flop. And that's not what Jesus what Jesus says. And it's not the picture of either the Old Testament or the New Testament. Um, when Jesus came, He began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." But He came to set up heaven living here on earth again.

He, um, the solution is a kingdom, a community of people living God's way now. It's, uh, a revolution to restore their good reign of God on earth and the reign of humans, um, with Him. And then in the end, when, when the time of fullness of time has come, God is going to we're gonna live in a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

There's gonna be a complete union of heaven and earth, God's space and man's realm, um, again, being able to be united together in fellowship and in partnership, um, where there is no, no evil. So, um, the project isn't over yet. And God wants us to join Him in being disciplined by the suffering and the pain in our world, to be partners with Him in, um, setting up something that is going to last forever and be good. Isaiah 65 says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth.

And the former shall not be remembered nor come to mind." It's, it's gonna be over. And it's gonna be gone. It's gonna be history in light of the good that will come. Revelation has several scenes like that where it talks about this and says things like, um, "Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them." Again, this, this union of, of fellowship and, and partnership together.

"They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore. And the sun shall not strike them nor any heat, for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters." And this last part is very precious. "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." So God, in a personal way, is going to bring an end to our, our sorrow and our suffering if we wait for Him and if we follow Him in trust and obedience. Evil is redeemed through suffering.

This is something that I really began to sink into me a couple of years ago. And in, in school, through different our Bible memory and, and study and different discussions we had, this really began to sink, sink into me. And I, I realized so much a need in my life for a change in perspective. But suffering is not a nuisance to be tolerated. But it's an atomic weapon for the Christian. It's God's way of turning evil to good.

That's how Jesus came and ultimately defeated evil and opened the door for redemption is through suffering, allowing evil to take itself out on Him and responding by pouring good back into it. And in that way, evil is dissolved. And Peter is the Peter's epistles are full of this. Um, I think it's beca partly because that's why Peter denied Christ is because he wasn't willing to suffer. He didn't want to hurt, um, to follow Jesus.

And so he talks about this a lot in the last part of chapters 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 of 1 Peter. And so he says this is a, a passage that's very well known. Charles Shelton wrote his book In His Steps, um, based on this. But we need to think carefully and read the whole thing and see what it is that Christ left us an example that we should follow in His steps. And as we read, we find this. "But if when you do well and suffer for it, you take it patiently, this is acceptable with God." God looks at that and says, "Wow.

Now, I am impressed with that. Um, that's my kind of guy. For even here, Andrew, you were called to this because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that we should follow in His steps of being willing to suffer in order to be part of the redemption of evil in the world." And I, I think that was part of my problem is I, I was not taught that. And I did not want that.

I, I didn't have a perspective that following Jesus was a life of embracing suffering, following Him and embracing suffering, and that as a weapon, not just as something to be endured, but that as a weapon of absorbing evil and responding with God's goodness by allowing God's presence to live in me. And I want to, uh I wanna continue allowing God to ingrain that in my mind. And also as I as I lead others toward God, I want that to be a major part of the, the picture I give them of following Jesus.

That suffering is Jesus' way of defeating evil. It's part of His upside-down kingdom. 1 Timothy 2 2 Timothy 2:12 says, "If we suffer, we will also reign with Him. But if we deny Him, if we deny His way and His method of relating to evil in the world, He also will deny us. We will be left to ourselves." I'm not gonna spend a lot of time talking about examples. But there's many in the Bible. Um, there are many people through history.

There are people in modern history, late, uh, contemporary history, um, people who have been through a lot of suffering and have, have become more beautiful people and have been able to leave a tremendous witness in, um, in their world. I wanna talk a little bit about handling grief. We talked a little at the beginning about this thing about, can we trust God? Um, and does God care? And, um, handling emotions. And some things I have found helpful for myself, basically three steps. One is reality.

We've got to face it. I'm not a fan of this thing of trying to go back and dredge up and, and create things that aren't there's, there's times and places for some of that kind of stuff. But we do need to face the reality of what happens. Um, you don't need to forgive until you have unless something was wrong. And, um, and then there's the whole thing of bottling things and just burying them. And then they, they rot because we're not okay. But we're trying to say we are.

Um, living in the truth, the truth sets us free in so many, so many senses. And lament. This is a, a thing that Western culture, we run away from at funerals. We're embarrassed to cry and those kind of things. And I think there's, there's, uh, lack of wholeness in our in our societies because of some of this. But lament, the Bible is full of lament in the Psalms and in Lamentation and in Job and people crying out and just, just turning into a puddle before God about what's going on.

And then have feel from that release, being able then to turn and to trust in God and to express confidence in God's, God's goodness. Get it out. Um, and as we relate to people who are have gone through pain, we need to allow them, encourage them to do that, to get it out of their system. And then move on to the deeper reality. So this is what happened. And it hurts.

I need to value what was lost and lament over it, crying on my heavenly Father's shoulder, not as an orphan, but cry to Him and allow Him to bring to bring comfort, to sorrow with me. And then move on to the deeper reality. So how does God want how does who God is change my response to this? How can God empower me to grow through this, to become come better through it? Um, how can He bring healing and wholeness to my life as a good heavenly Father?

Um, and I found that a holistic approach, those, those things and cycling through as we work through layers, facing the reality, "This has affected me. Um, it was not okay. And it hurt." But then moving on to, how does God who is how does God then in who He is affect, um, how I handle this and my future expectations? I like the reality in this song. This is by Mark Hall. "Oh, my soul. Oh, how you worry. Oh, how you're weary from fearing you've lost control. This was the one thing you didn't see coming.

And no one would blame you, though, if you cried in private, if you tried to hide it away so no one knows. No one will see if you stop believing. Oh, my soul. You are not alone. There's a place where fear has to face the God you know. One more day, He will make a way. Let Him show you how you can lay this down 'cause you're not alone." I love the reality of this verse. "Here and now, you can be honest. I won't try to promise that someday it all works out 'cause this is the valley.

But even now, He is breathing on your dry bones. And there will be dancing. There will be beauty where beauty was ash and stone. This much I know." Helping the hurting. I'm just gonna run through this quickly. Um, just I just wanna mention some of this because it's, um, running through some well-meaning some well-meaning people have made this journey very difficult for me at times. And God has brought good through that, um, partly because I know not to do those things myself.

But just some, some things to be careful of is, for one, we gotta be willing to suffer so that we can be an example of trusting God's goodness and redemption. Weep with those who weep. That's what the Bible says to do. And too often, we, we wanna get over we wanna fix the problem.

We and part of letting the pain work in our lives is weeping and sorrowing and grieving, whether it's a lost loved one or whether it's, um, a loss of, of, um, of innocence or whether it's, um, a loss of job or whatever it is, a loss of reputation. Um, weep with those that weep. And then we can be part of the comforters. Don't lob Romans 8:28 grenades.

Um, don't just don't try to offer quick answers and just say, "Well, you know well, we know it all it all worked together for good." Or, "I had this happen one time with a courtship breakup." The very night after we had officially I met her and said, you know, "Thank you for the privilege. And I wish you the best in life." And, and we parted. The very next night, a, a couple who knew what was going on, one of them made the statement, "Well, there'll, there'll be another one." Well, dear I mean, it was dear to them.

But right now, I'm not interested in that. I, I loved her. I cared about her. I and, and it hurt right now. And it, it wasn't don't, don't do those kind of things. Um, pain and suffering is messy. And we have to be okay with that. Um, don't just try to fix it. Weep with them. Walk with them. And bring in trust in God and things like that. Let them see God's goodness through you. And, and there's times to bring in then.

Um, the one man who probably has been the biggest influence through the last seven years of my life during that same time sat there and just put him arm around it around me and cried with me and just let me talk when I wanted to. And he was also the man that I remember one time very distinctly. We were I was just frustrated and sick of some stuff that was going on. And I just blew off. And I think I scared him a little bit. And so finally, he looked at me when I got done.

And he just kinda blinked and said, "Well, so where is God in all this?" And because of him sorrowing and weeping with me and listening to me as I as I poured out to him as a good friend, my the things I was facing, um, he was in a position then to be able to call me to the deeper reality. Don't equivocate or act like you understand when there's no way you could.

Don't try to say to somebody who's been through a, a deep abuse, say, "Well, you know, my dad, sometimes he spanked me too hard too." Or, you know, don't try to make it to level it out. Uh, you actually ruin credibility by doing that. Remember, people don't want answers. They want a person. Uh, they want to know that Dad is still here. And He cares. And it's gonna be okay. And let them see that through you. Um, be an ambassador. Let them see that God loves and cares through your tears and touch.

I'm not saying don't bring truth. But it just in my experience, it is these are the things that people need to be brushed up on, not so much, um, how to give answers. Listen. Um, especially when someone has gone through something in, in private or in silence for years, they need to be able to open up and talk. So, so listen and walk with them. That's what Jesus did.

That's Jesus' way of discipleship, which is a, an ongoing relationship of, of mentoring, of walking with someone with fellowship and then commenting into their life and encouraging them and showing them ways they can improve, um, helping them work through difficult things. That's the effective, um, help. So the choice in, in wrapping up here, the choice that we face is, when do we when do we clock out on God? When do we say, "God, okay. I've given you enough time. You're not bringing good out of this.

I'm giving up"? Really, when do we do that? Are we somehow going to provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we gonna make God feel bad? And God's gonna say, "Oh, well, no. No. I don't wanna lose you." You know, no. We're the losers if we clock out on God, if we if we withdraw from being exercised, um, by His, His loving, um, training in our lives. Um, do we think we're gonna make God feel bad? We're the losers if we quit. This is something this is my experience. There's been times where I've wanted God to change things.

And I've threw a fit. And I've gone and tasted sin and, and things like that. I've become held hostage to the poison I took to numb the pain because I wasn't surrendering to God. And ultimately, what God does is, God lets me try that stuff until finally, I'm sick of drinking the cup of my own way. And I'm ready. I'm tired enough of it that I'm ready to accept something else, accept His option, and to do what it takes to make it happen. Ultimately, that's what happens.

And that's where ultimately, we all have to get to is, we're done with our way. And we're ready to give up and accept the good that God wants to bring, the story that God wants to write, uh, wants to weave into our life through our choices and the choices that others have brought to, to play in our lives. Hebrews 12 talks about this thing of chastening and, and training and how it's, it's a difficult thing. And we need to be careful that we don't become weary and discouraged and sell out like Esau did.

And this, this statement I really like in is in verse I think it's verse 9 in the end there. It says, "We, we listened to our fathers. We found out it was best to, to go with Dad's advice and, and to listen to Him. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of Spirits and live?" Um, isn't it so much better than if it was good to listen to our natural dads, to listen to our heavenly Father and submit to His hard lessons in life and experience life, um, because of that?

Because He is training us not just to make Himself look good or for His agendas but for our profit so that we can become like Him. And so the choice that I have had to face, I continually need to face, and the choice that each of us face is the fact that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. When we resent what God has allowed in His goodness in our life and we resent His redemption of it and we pull away from Him, we push ourselves away from God. We become something that God repels.

Um, and so Peter says, "Therefore, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him for He cares for you." And I think that's just a holistic, um, summary of what we've been talking about here is to humble ourselves, to submit and give ourselves to the strange and mysterious ways of God in our lives because His purpose is to exalt us, to lift us up and make us something better, to make us like Him, partners with Him in His, His, His, His, um, glorious

triumph over evil.

And in the meantime, cast your care on Him. Don't cry it alone. Um, come to Him and pour out your cares to Him and the struggle to Him because He does care about us. I'll turn the time back over to, uh, to you, Brian. Thank you, Bill, for the for the sharing that, that you did here, here tonight. You have you have talked about how you've struggled with, with, um, with suicide, with fear, with depression, um, courtship disruptions, and, and different things like, like that. And we relate the story.

People can relate the story so well. And I think that, that for that reason, it has and is resonating with, with, um, many, many people. You're, you're speaking from a place of, of real of real experience and real pain. The pain that, that, that you endured and, and, and others are facing is not is not an illusion. It's, it's, it's real. It's, it's felt.

And, and so and so you have provided an excellent, um, foundation, an excellent, excellent, uh, presentation on, uh, on the purpose of pain, um, giving due respect to the to the intense struggle of pain. And, and so some of the questions that came in we'll turn to this one, I think, that was maybe re maybe coming from last night's discussion. Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil.

I, the Lord, do all do all these things." And I think that, um, more, more than posing a question, there was would you have a comment on, on Isaiah 45:7? Yeah. I knew that one was gonna come up. There's you can't talk about all of them. I don't have a handy answer for that. And I that is becoming such a comfortable position for me just to be able to say, "Hey, I, I don't know." I am learning to quit trying to nail down and understand everything. But at the same time, I'm not in a place of ignorance.

That question doesn't bother me because there are other things that I feel like I've come to learn that I know about God that help me to be okay with not understanding that statement totally. The question there is, does God create evil? Uh, I don't know. God says that it's the same Greek word or not Greek word but the same Hebrew word is that used in Genesis when it says, "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth." I guess I would like to look at it differently.

I think that's a bad way of depicting things, to say, "God created evil." But I do know that God has created a world of free will because He is a God of love, a God of relationship, a God of community and partnership. And so therefore, He has created a world where evil is a possibility. And He is He is sovereign. And He superintends over that. It is by His permission that those things happen.

And with His with His love, His care, and His, His compassion with the happening and His purpose, um, His steadfast love and purpose to redeem it. That's the that's the way I choose to look at that. I feel like to say, "God creates evil," is, is, is a is a a a part of the picture that's very misleading. I got asked that in school probably a, a dozen or two dozen times. That's, that's a troubling passage. Sure. Thank you for that response. So here's another question.

Does God ever take away the autonomy that He gave us? For, for example, if a thief was stopped from carrying out his intended crime by a miracle, etc. Yeah. So suddenly, there's a um, that happened in the Bible a couple of times. Someone was struck with blindness, you know, so they couldn't carry it out. Um, I, I don't that, that's an interesting uh, an interesting question. I don't know that I would say God took away their autonomy.

But God stood in the way and, and, um, chose to bring good, to bring people's attention to His goodness by, by preventing it. The person could still choose to keep fighting. But there was they're just, um, uh, were hindered. Yeah. That's, that's an interesting question. I don't know that I really have a really good answer for that other than God didn't change their choice. He simply stood in the chose to intervene and protect. That's the way He chose to bring good out of that situation.

He supernaturally intervened. Yeah. Okay. Brian, did you have a comment on, on that? Uh, no. Actually, I, I don't I've you might have saw me kind of sit up a little straight. And that was a comment that just came in on Isaiah, this, uh, other back discussion. And I'd actually read it in my Septuagint. And it was a little different. Um, but it this, this gentleman's saying that the Septuagint does read a little bit differently. It was a comment that just came in.

Uh, and I, I and during the, the course here, I, I picked my Bible up and had the Septuagint. And I noticed it there wasn't quite worded the same. But I didn't, didn't connect that. So yeah. That, that is interesting. So maybe, Bill, I don't know if you've read it in the Septuagint before. But check it out. It is it is a little bit yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's a good point. I'm, I'm, I'm starting into, to transition into that a little bit. But I still my the King James is my mother tongue, so.

I would I would say this about it too is that it seems like God has created a world evil self-destructs in the end. If people choose to relate to the world in a way that's not real, in the end, they bring their own destruction. In some ways, that, that type of thing is the same way. Death, death to, to an evil person is that. They are relating into the world in a way that brings their destruction.

And sometimes, people may run into that type of thing sooner, uh, like in the illustration of God just creating an invisible wall so, you know, somebody can't, uh, molest somebody or something like that. Mm-hmm. It's still our choice to interact in a way that we come up against, um, consequences. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for, for that. So another, another question here. And this is probably a big discussion, maybe one that can't be, um, covered too, too, too well here.

This is a very difficult subject on which you have been speaking, Bill, on, uh in, in, in apologetics. The problem of excruciating pain, um, extends to, to the innocent, extends to the unaware. Um, God can, can intervene, can supernaturally intervene like we just said, uh, a minute ago. But He does, does not always do so. And we have how do we reconcile? I'll say it this way. How do we reconcile God's sovereign goodness and, uh, and, and, and moral consistency? Maybe ask it like that.

So, so you're saying the fact that God does not choose to intervene, He lets horrific things happen. Right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That I, I'm that's a that's a home territory subject because I've wrestled with that deeply in myself. Why did God let things happen to me? And, and it's that's enough of a struggle. But then why has God let it happen? Why did God let this happen to my siblings as, as the big brother to, to six sisters? That's something I've had to grapple with is why, why did God let this happen?

And why didn't I know about it to be able to stop it? And there's all kinds of things that I could say about that that I'm, I'm at rest with. But one thing that has helped me to understand this is, is we tend to look at God in the context of who we are rather than looking at ourselves in the context of who God is. And I wrestled with that deeply in the last couple of years with some situations, some people I, I care deeply about. It just seemed like the situation was there was no way out.

There was it was just gonna end in their they were gonna be turned aside, out of the way. And I had to come to grips with this fact that if I care about it, and my sense of justice says, "Somebody should stop this," and it, it burdens and grieves me deeply, that love, that sense of justice is something that is in me because I am a reflection of God. I'm in God's image.

And so therefore, in the heart of the Almighty has got to be exponentially more of pain and of burning and of, of a, uh, just a, a an overwhelming urge to do something about it. Um, that has brought rest to me is that my care the amount I care is just a little picture of God. And so much more God cares. And, and He's allowing this not because He doesn't care and enjoys it but because there's something much greater, um, to be to, to, to happen through it.

Um, Lee Strobel, I think, is it's in his interview with, um, Peter Kreeft in, uh, the book The Case for Faith. But he gives illustrations how as humans, in a much, much smaller way, we do that. Um, he gives the illustration of a father watching his daughter learn to thread a needle. And she pokes herself. And there's blood. And it hurts. And he doesn't do anything about it because it there's a greater good of her learning the freedom and, and the excitement when she says, "Ah, I did it.

I got it." And now, she can do it. And she can move on into other, other realms. Um, with my students as we talk about this at s at school, um, one picture that's help been helpful to me and I think helpful to them is riding bicycle. Um, as we all know that riding bicycle, there's almost always, there's some pretty big scraped elbows, maybe even broken bones, um, in the process of learning to ride bicycle.

And yet, all my students, when I ask them if they become parents, will they allow their children to learn to ride bicycle? And they all raise their hands. And I think that's just a in a small way, I know that we're talking about, you know, molestation and rape and genocide and, and those kind of things that it's on a much greater scale. But we're also talking a much greater person.

And that in the same way that we will allow danger, physical harm because there's a greater good of the freedom of being able to ride bike and go places and do things, um, in the same way, the heart of, of God as a Father, He allows painful things to happen because there are things this is where we have to submit and become a child and realize He has wisdom. As we look at the creation, He has things going on.

He has He knows how to work things together and create good and beauty that we doesn't even show up anywhere as close to our radar screens. And we have to submit to that to that love and that goodness when He allows things like that. But comforting myself with that, that the love and the care, the, the pain that I feel, the empathy I feel, and the urge for justice is just a just a minuscule picture of, of what resides in God's heart about the situation. Ken. Yeah.

It's part of that, that stamp of the of the divine, we could say, that God has that God has placed in, in our heart. Um, we can take things into our own into our own hands. And, and, uh, scriptures say that, that, uh, vengeance is mine. I will I will repay, says, says the Lord. So of course, there's coming a time when God when God will make things all right. And, you know, our, our duty at times is, is to is to pray, is to keep praying, is to yeah. So thank you for those for those thoughts.

Our, our knee-jerk reaction to pain, suffering in the world, in our own lives, is to run from it, avoid it, right? And it's, it's I we're, we're called to, to, to embrace it. Now, it's one thing to say it. It's one thing to say that. But it's another thing it's another thing to, to do it. But to embrace it is to is to walk through walk through it and learning those things that, that God wants to, to teach us. Yeah. To be exercised by it. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And, and having that having that understanding of, of the wound is with is how the light gets in. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Amen. That was that was good. Thank you for mentioning that, that song. I, I, um, I appreciated that. Um, just a comment of, of my own from, from last night. There was a few you had mentioned a few songs that, that describe the, the struggle of the person that's crying out in, in anger and, and rebellion against, against God and staying there, staying in that place.

And so and so my thought was, you know, where are the where are where's the literature? Where's the poems? Where's the inspirational yeah. Literature that we can read where people are wrestling with these same kinds of hard questions and yet finding faith. Yeah. Yet finding God. And so, so when you brought some of those out tonight, I, I was, uh I was touched and blessed and blessed by that because, you know, most of us I can speak for myself.

I can speak for, I'm sure, most of our listeners, you know, some of those songs that reflect on the on the struggle and the and the rebellion, you know, it, it, it can touch a core. It can cut it can touch a core deep, deep down in my, my heart. But we need to check ourselves to make sure that we're not resonating with, with the rebellion or the bit or the bitterness. We identify the struggle. We identify the we agree with the journey. But we no longer right. experience the, the bitterness. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And there's, there's many songs the ones I mentioned were more contemporary ones. But there's many songs like, for example, It Is Well With My Soul, um, written as I forget the name of the guy. John Dee could say it, rattle it off right away. But it was wrote that song sailing over the place where his wife and daughters had, had drowned in shipwreck. And, um, um, oh, there's another one. Um, the song, um, Now Think We All Are God, I believe it is. Yeah.

Was written by a, a, uh, a preacher the pastor of a church in, uh I believe it was Germany or Austria during the Thirty Years' War after in a village torn by rampage by the rampages of war and pestilence. And one I think it in one I forget now. But it was a, a incredible amount of funerals in one year that he had, um, conducted in his small village, including that of his wife.

And he writes the song, Now Think We All Are God, um, who from our mother's arms has blessed us on our way with countless gifts of love and still is ours today. And, and the only reference to the suffering he makes there is, "And guide us when perplexed." Um, that testimony of trust in God and, um, and accepting it, you know, and, and being able to be such a, a, a vessel of healing in that, that war-torn and, and time of pestilence is, is, um, is, um, is astounding.

That and there's, there's, there are many of those. Yeah. We need to be real careful about those. So there's, you know, there's different songs growing up. The one some of you will know it, the country song, um, If You're Going Through Hell, um, you know, and that resonated with me because life is tough. And it seems like everybody's just kicking you. And, and life just all it does is throws, throws you a, you know, a bucket of rotten tomatoes for everything you do. And so just be tough and just hang in there.

And you might get through it. And I just I as I've as I've grown in my journey, I just realized that is not the perspective of a Christian. A Christian doesn't just buck up and handle it because life stinks. He, he cries to his Heavenly Father. And he allows himself to be comforted. And he softens himself and surrenders to, to the discipline, the training, um, that God's bringing in his life. So yeah.

We need to guard against that, the, the lies that are in those expressions while they do express the, the, uh, the sentiments that we, we tend to have as humans. It's, it's not wrong to have to, to have the struggle. Yeah. Right. But right. To harden ourselves in it, to harden ourselves and to pull away from God is, is to is to is to is to choose our own destruction. Yeah. Amen. So while we're while we're talking about this subject, I had thought of the song, He Give Us More Grace Yeah. when the bird grew greater.

I won't quote the whole song. But, but to our listeners, if you do not know the story behind this song, look that up because it's, it's written by Annie Johnson Flint, He Give Us More Grace. And it is a amazing story. This woman had suffered a Bill, maybe you know the story better than I, but, but tremendously. This woman had suffered tremendously. And the song the song is just so when you realize that context, the song is so meaningful and so, so powerful. Yeah.

Another one is the song, A Love That Will Not Let Me Go, um, was written by a, a young man who was engaged. And he found out he had a, a eye disease that was causing him to go blind. And his fiancé his fiancé, um, broke up with him.

And in, in that wrestling through that pain and that rejection but choosing to allow God's love to fill him and, and give him purpose, he wrote that beautiful song, um, I Trace the Rainbow Through the Rain and Know the Promise Is Not Vain, That Mourn Shall Cheerless Be Shall Tearless Be. Sorry. That's good. All right. Brian, did you have a comment there? Did I cut you off? I said it's I said that's good stuff. Okay. So let's see what we have for, for some more questions.

Um, Brian, I don't have a sense for how much time we're spending here. I guess if I'm doing going over time, why you can alert us. We should probably try to shut it down at the top of the hour here. So that gives us about nine more minutes, so. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. All right. So we have another question here. And this question, there's, there's not, uh there's not context here given. So I'll just I'll just, uh, read it to you as it as it was sent to us.

How can a same-sex attracted person be a be pointed to the redemption of God of which you speak? Yeah. Oh, that's a very touchy issue. And I'm just gonna be honest. It's an issue I can't relate to from the perspective of, of having that, that, um, that appetite, that orientation, that, um, um, I will say this. Um, Tim Mackey has a really good message on that, Tim Mackey from the Bible Project about, uh, marriage and sexuality. And there's some real good realism about that.

And that, um, without talking about whether or not it's legitimate to say that I have a certain gender orientation. But the fact is, is, um, is sexual sexual act being sexually active is not is not a necessity. It's not a right. And I'm, I'm in a place in life where I have to grapple with that issue and, and deal with it even though I'm, I'm, I'm very heterosexual.

Um, but we, we have to find places where we have to deal with and surrender and fit what we're experiencing and our feelings and our appetites, our longing into what God is allowing in our lives in the in the way He has made the world. I'll, I'll just say that from just my own personal experience. It's not maybe dealing with the orientation and things.

But as far as dealing with the need for companionship and the sexuality side of it is, is something that is not just a it is not just something that, um, that, that, that orientation has to has to grapple with. And learning to surrender and realize that there is good and there is, um, there, there is grace for God to, um, to help me to be able to be pure and to be a healthy person in my relationships, um, where I'm at in life is, is, um, is the choice that we have to make. Um, go ahead.

Before you move on, I'll, I'll, I'll say a comment. But go ahead, Joe. No. You that's fine, Brian. You, you go ahead. Um, you know, one thing for the person who submitted that, um, I've, I've walked with someone in that journey myself. And, um, but opening up about it, you know, and, and sharing it, you know, with and, and you, you would have talked about that. Like, open up about it. Don't, don't hide it. Don't just put it in.

But talk about that with, with a trusted brother or sister, um, who can journey with you through that. I think that would be that would be tremendously healing. I think it's too too it's way too taboo, um, in, in our settings maybe to just you, you wanna conceal it and not talk about it. But find someone you can trust to talk about that because it, it is you know, we live in a cursed world. And because of that, we grapple with these things with our flesh. And, um, you're not alone.

There are other dear brothers and sisters who grapple with this thing as well. I, I would like to say this as well about it is I've had friends that, that battled with that issue. I'm glad you brought that up, Brian, about talking about it because that's one thing I hear from those people is that that's one of the most difficult things is feeling like if I say I'm struggling with this or I'm having this these feelings, that they're gonna be ostracized. Um, and we need to we need to change that. Yes.

Um, but also, I'm, I'm I wanna be careful in saying this because I'm speaking from with outside. I don't know what it's like to be in those shoes. But what I have observed in working with some people, some from both sides, both males and females that had, um, a homosexual appetite, is that one thing I've observed in all of them is there's it seems like there often is some I'm not gonna say all the time.

But what I've observed is there is seems like there's something that has happened in their life that has caused them to be afraid or have a resentment towards being a certain gender or closeness with the opposite gender. Um, often, there's, there's some of that that at least plays into that. I think God wants to bring healing, um, through, um, through the community of believers and through, um, openness and finding God's God as a Father in their lives.

I, I hope that was I hope I'm not, um, you know, speaking out of place or without understanding there. But that's just a one, one perspective from some of the, the people that I've, I've been acquainted with. Thank you for your response to this, uh, question here. Moving on, I have I have another question for, for you, Bill. Actually, it came it comes in a group of three which are all in a similar vein. Uh, I think I'll just give them to you like, uh, like they came to me. Did you go for, for counseling?

What is the role of professional counseling? These are these are good questions. And is there such a thing as going for too much counseling? Um, I have never gone for professional counseling. I have talked to some counselors in so basically like a one-time session. Um, but I have never, like, gone for a week or, um, that kind of thing or, or longer. Um, I have been blessed by a lot of people who walked with me in the journey.

And, um, uh, it's just been a truth here and a truth there and a long, long growing process, um, through a lot of it. Um, maybe some of that could have been helped by a session. I will say this about counseling. I think it has its place. Um, I don't necessarily think that all the gifts in their fullness are given to every local congregation. Some of that is in the church collectively, um, on a broader scale that there are gifts given to, to bring Christ, Christ healing and Christ guidance.

But I do believe that the, the model Jesus sets up is discipling. And that is the way that growth i-is, is going to happen in a person's life. And that happens in close community. Um, and so I do believe that counseling going off for counseling, a church sending someone to be counseled with the idea that they're gonna go get fixed, then they're gonna come back and be and be fixed is really I feel like it's detrimental often from what I've seen.

And I think it can be helpful to get some ex people who are experienced have experience in working through some of these things to speak into a person's life. But it is gonna be minimal in its impact if it is not, um, primarily nested in community and a, a mentoring, uh, discipling relationship. Excellent answer. Thank you. We are gonna run out of time here. I think that maybe I'll, I'll ask you one more question. And then and then I'll read a few of these, um, encouragements that came in.

And the, the question here is, how, how do we if, if we know of some if we know of somebody, somebody close to us who may be struggling with, with depression or maybe struggling with suicide at a at a deep level, um, how can we how can we help how can we best help them? How can we yeah. How can we best help them? Yeah. That's, that's a really good question. One thing, though, I think is, is, is, is listen to them.

Whenever somebody quits talking, that's when you should get scared, um, um, because it's a prison and because we, we no longer are um, the light's not shining in. We're not we're not allowing input. And something is sitting there rotting. It's just us and Satan, um, to feed our fears and, and our and feed lies into it. Um, I know it's messy. But I'm just I'm just sharing from I don't have a professional opinion. I've not lived through 10 lives.

Um, I am indebted to God's goodness through, um, men who have a-and their wives who have put up with, with the time I've taken from their husbands, uh, as well as just good ladies. But, um, I'm indebted to men who have been willing to sit there and listen to me and walk with me through and, and give advice, give, give tell me painful things at times. Um, it's been a long journey. Um, I'm talking I'm talking 20 years. Um, I couldn't have shared this kind of thing 10 years ago hardly. It was just the beginning.

The first talk I gave on why God allows suffering in the world was very elementary. It was 2010. Um, and what I would share today is just is completely different in so many ways. It's gonna be a messy journey. That's all I know how to say. God has a messy journey in work walking with us. And if we're gonna be partners with Him, it's gonna be that way. Um, encouragement, just spending time with them. Um, yeah. Uh, those are I'm just I'm just looking at my own life and some of the things that have helped me.

But at, at the bottom, each person does have to choose whether I'm going to listen to depression or whether I'm gonna cry out and be willing to take the hard steps of faith and trust. And I'm telling you, it's not easy. And I've I have fought some horrific battles. I have in the same way I jumped up and down and pounded the steering wheel that morning, I nearly committed suicide. I have battled.

I have yelled and, and cried out to God and, and yelled at Satan and declared just I there's been times I have just yelled up and down. I fought a lot of battles on the road, um, and just yelled up and down, "God is good. I'm gonna trust Him. God is good. I'm gonna trust Him." Because for me, there wasn't any way out. Um, God didn't bring something else that fixed my problem. And we lived happily ever after.

And I've just faced with I'm gonna go nuts, literally, um, if I don't just choose to just do the hard work of choosing to, to just fix my mind and fasten my mind on this dumb like Philippians chapter 4, um, 6 through 8 tells us. Uh, so I don't know if that answered the question. But it's just some of some of my perspective, just sharing what's, what's happened in my life. Yeah. God give us God give us grace and, um, empathy to, to relate to people.

Have to have to give safe spaces for people to, to have, have these conversations, um, um, with us. You know, we live in we live in an interesting and difficult, I guess you could say, time when, when people are people are seeking many, many alternate ways to escape their, their existential pain. And through drugs, through alcohol, it's a huge problem, huge problem in our in our country. And, and they're doing it because the, the pain of their present reality is, is too great to bear.

And so they seek to, to medicate. They seek to numb it, I guess you would say, by, by taking drugs, by taking alcohol. But, um, but yeah. Before we get off this line, I mean, let's, let's just point people to Jesus, brothers. "Come unto me," He said, "all, all ye that are weak and are heavy laden, and, and I will give you rest." Right. Hallelujah. And you'll never and you'll never experience that until you decide to try it without reserve. Um. Yes. Bill, um, thank you so much. Joe, I'm assuming you're done here.

Or you have some more? Well. Sorry. Yeah. I was sorry. I was just going to there was basically two comments, Brian, uh, by way of encouragement that came in that I was gonna mention. And then and then I will I will be I'll be finished. Sure. Yeah. And, and this these are actually directed to you, Bill. And oh, I wanna say one other thing. And that is, we have not addressed every question that came in. Right. Um, thank you very much for these questions. These are all very important questions.

And, um, we just for, for the for lack of time, we have not been able to, to touch them all. But thank you for engaging with them. Uh, we I hope that you have all, um, found this to be this to be helpful. But Bill, this was addressed to you. You speak from a real place, Bill. I really enjoyed the message today, your candor, your honesty, and vulnerability, and using Scripture to put it all together. Nice. I wish to add, if I can, 2 Corinthians 12:8 through 10 summary for when we are weak, then I am strong.

When we place our trust and pains in God, He makes us strong when we are weak. Amen. Thank you. Okay. There's another one. If I can find it here. This is an excellent summary of the role of pain and suffering in the life of Christian. May the Lord bless Bill for his transparency and for coming to terms with that design and calling on God in how to respond to his experiences. So yeah. I think with that, Brian, I'm gonna hand it back over to you. And also, thank you thanks to you, Bill Shirley.

And God, God bless you very much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And I, I'd like to say this about it is, is thank you for the encouragement. But God, God has, has blessed me. And He is blessing me. And one of the ways He's going to continue to bless me is by more pain in my life. I know that. Um, and so this is this is not a journey that's over. You know, this isn't Bill's all fixed now. And he is over things. This is gonna be a, a lifelong journey of learning to trust God, allowing Him to redeem, redeem me.

And, um, and what I want you to go away with is not Bill Shirley. But this is God's story. And if, if you need to quit on God, then I need to quit on God. But if God can change my life and He can bring good out of the evil that I've suffered and good in my family, um, from the evil that we've suffered, God can also do it in your life. And it's Him that's gonna bring answers to your life, not me. Um, I'm simply, simply a, a vessel. So latch onto Him. Yes. Amen. Yep. He'll make you into a, a beautiful artwork. Right.

Yeah. Very good. Um, yeah. So Joe, I'm just gonna ask you then just to close in prayer here just in a minute. But yeah. Thank you, Bill. Uh, God bless you. Uh, we still have. Thank you for the privilege. We still have a lot of people on the call, uh, who, who stayed on right to the end here, stuck it out for two hours. But it, it wasn't sticking it out. It was, um, uh, I think we're all we're all here. And we've, we've been pulled in. And you've taken us on a journey. And, uh, it's, it's impacted us. So yeah.

Thank you again. I would just ask all of us who've listened to this call to, um, pray especially for Bill over the next over the next days, uh, when you do, um. This is why. You, you gave this talk now twice this week. In one week, yeah. It's, it's well, I guess it's next week. No, it's not next week. It's see this is the we're into Sunday here. So, um, but last week, last week, you gave this talk four times or twice, um, four sessions. So, uh, God bless you for, for that.

And so let's we, we need to surround you, uh, in prayer especially over this time. I'm certain of that. So I would like to end, um, this with a quote from E. Stanley Jones. And he says this: "We now know that God is like Jesus. He is Christ-like. And if He is, He is a good God." Yes. Yes. "If the heart at the back of the universe is like this gentle heart that broke upon the cross." Amen. "He can have my heart without qualification and without reservation." Amen. Amen. So, uh, you've lifted up Jesus.

And we can continue to lift Him up and know that this God that can seem so distant, if He's like Jesus and we know that He is, trust Him. Joe, could you close this in prayer, please? Yeah. Let's pray. Father, we come to You at this at this time, at the at the close of, of this of this meeting. And Father, we thank You for the way in which You have You have spoken to us tonight. We thank for we thank You for Your faithfulness in, in Bill's life.

We thank You for how You have You have rescued him from, from depression and despair and, and suicide. Thank You for that. And I just pray for, for him specifically now in the in the next days and weeks that, that You would in the name of Jesus, that He would be He would be kept He'd be kept safe. He'd be kept strong. He'd be kept faithful, Lord.

And, uh, and not just for him but, but for all of our all of our listeners on this on this line here tonight, all of the viewers on the line here tonight, just, Lord, would You meet each one where they are in their journey. We're not all we're not all the same. And yet, we're a lot the same. We can resonate with what we've heard today. But Lord, You have given us You have given us Your Son, Jesus. He is not a stranger to suffering and pain.

But He has entered into our experience and endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him. He did this for me. He did this for, for each person on this on this call here tonight. And, uh, I just pray that You would You would bless each, each person and, and help each one in their struggle and in their journey to, uh, continue on. May they be refreshed. May they be encouraged to, uh, to continue on and, and find and find You faithful. Thank You that, that You give more grace when our burdens grow greater.

You send more strength when our labor is increased. To added afflictions, You add Your mercy. To multiplied sorrows, multiplied grace. Thank You, Father. Thank You for this time. Bless my brothers and sisters on this line in Your name. Amen. Amen. Amen. All right. Thank, thanks again, Brother Bill. Thanks, Brother Joe. Thank you. God bless you all.