"Q&A: God's Equipment for Building His Church - Panel Discussion" | CGS 2023

Lesson Transcript

So this is a question-and-answer session now, and I wasn't sure where Raymond was going to go with everything, so I didn't prepare a list of questions. So I'm here basically we're here without any props to get started. So before we turn it to the audience, maybe I'll just look to the three brothers on my right here to maybe they have a question or a comment to start the conversation with. Micah, it looks like you have a whole list there. Yeah. Am I on? I was thinking about this from two angles.

One is from the leader's perspective, and the other is from the non-leader's perspective, the rest of the brotherhood. And the thing that came to my mind, and I've heard these kind of comments before of like, "It's not it's probably proud to try to discern what your gift is or the areas that you have to serve. It's not proud. It's humble." To discern what God is doing in you and to hear from others and to pursue that in itself is not proud. It's submitting to what God is doing.

And I mean, I'm sure there's a lot more to say about that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Micah, for that. So in my experience in our fellowship, as Brother Raymond mentioned, we did have some meetings where we sat around and talked about the giftings that we, number one, believe that we have, but then number two, what we see in each other.

And there was a lot of congruency between the discussion of what each brother saw in himself, and also what the other brothers saw in him, though it brought a fuller picture when the brothers mentioned when the brothers basically confirmed and expanded the reaches of that gift. And for me, for myself, my testimony with that is I found that liberating. It gives freedom to serve within that capacity. And the other angle is the context of Ephesians 4 is for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry.

And so that those leaders, the goal isn't that they're finally the leader and people get to follow them and they get to call the shots, but that their job is now to be the chief foot washer, to be equipping all the saints under their watch for the work of the ministry, that being the goal of that job, the job of the minister. So I was thinking about that as well, just how important that is for the life of the body. I'll make a comment on that. The apostles are called the foundation of the church.

We're built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. And in Revelation, the foundation has the names of the apostles. When you go to look at a new house, nobody exclaims over the foundation. Nobody exclaims about the two by fours inside the walls. They're looking at the paint and the home décor and that kind of stuff. And I kind of think that that's a little bit the role that the apostles and the elders and some of these people took. They were a foundation. They were a framework.

But everybody else was getting the attention. The saints who were ministering on the front lines were getting the attention. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's something wrong when that is reversed, when the people on the show, on the stage, are getting all the attention. And yeah, so I would just encourage that be okay with that. Be unrecognized. Let the people in the church get the glory. Balls to cover. Faith balls to cover. Not yet. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Raymond, for that. Amen. All right.

Let's open it up to the audience. If you have a question, stand up, and one of the ushers will bring a mic to you, and we'll field the question. My name's David from Wellesley, Ontario. My question is, should we be identifying gifts within ourselves, or should leadership or others identify the gifts, our own gifts? So the question is, should we be identifying these gifts ourselves within ourselves, or should the church be identifying them within ourselves?

Kevin, do you have a thought about that you'd like to share? Well, when I think of gifts, I think the worst thing you can do is to be doing something that you're not gifted at. If you ever try something to do something you're not gifted at, that's when it becomes really clear that you don't have that gift. That's true. So I think it's actually really easy to identify gifts. I don't think it's complicated. I think we're the ones that make it complicated. A lot of that times, that comes from within our own hearts.

I think the gift of - what is it? - of being a prophet is probably being the one that's been abused the most. Everyone wants to be that prophet that everybody listens to. When you go down that road, it's probably not your gift. It kind of reveals it. But I think one of the best things that elders and leaders and churches can do is to encourage people when you see they have a gift. I mean, there's nothing greater than that. There's nothing more inspirational. It'll take a young person and put him on a path for life.

I was encouraged at 18, and it's put a fire in my belly that I've never lost to this day. I just turned 51 yesterday, so I hope I got another 50 years. So yeah, I think we make it too complicated, is my thought, Tilda. Yeah. My experience in my upper teens, early adulthood, is that the men who were the elders in the church that I was in, I had a lot of questions. Questions about how we did things from the Mollican background I was in, and a lot of questions. Why do we do it this way? And I wanted to understand.

And every once in a while, somebody would crack and give me an answer. But a lot of the I remember specifically one incident. This one man now looks at me and he goes, "Hey, you still got " what did he say? "You still got boogers on your nose." And I'm like, "In mid-20s." And I kind of looked at him, and it didn't help me to be more humble. It just didn't give me the answers I was looking for.

But there was one man who ended up really strengthening and really encouraging the things he saw, and it caused me to stop and really think about that and to trust him when he saw that something was out of line in my life, to really be able to hear him. And I feel like it really helped me to gain a quiet confidence where before it wasn't there.

And so I think the context of Ephesians 4, especially 11 to 16, is if those five-fold ministry, if that's the leaders in the church, that the point of that is that those brothers are supposed to be equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. And so that context seems like it's saying, "Look for these things. Look for these gifts." But then so my real simple answer for you brothers is it depends.

That's my understanding from the scriptures because in Acts, when they chose the seven, the apostle said, "Choose among you these men who meet these qualifications." And so I think it could come in different ways. I think the leaders I wrote down a note for the leaders, "Raise up your replacements. Don't be threatened by those who are coming up and asking questions and pressing into something. Raise them up. Help them walk with God. Equip them.

Help them to walk in humility and to learn that quiet confidence in their ability to serve God." Amen. Thank you. Yeah. I think it's not an either/or. I think it's both/and. I think it can work both ways. All right. Another question. I think there were some more questions here at the front. Yeah. My name is Seth Colt from Oregon. I had the question in regards to a comment that was made. One of the points was that let me read it here. I wrote it down.

In relation to either working together synergistically or being a spiritual parasite in regards to our giftings. And I was curious, hypothetically, if you're in a church ministering and obviously ministering in such a way but apart from the church and not really including your body, is that what you mean by parasitically? Is that a detriment to the body of Christ when you're working apart from your local body in your giftings? Or were you referring to someone who doesn't exercise their giftings at all? Yeah.

I think it could be both. So cancer is growing actively, but it's not in accord with the rest of the cells. It's not getting its direction from the brain, right? It's working its own thing, and that wreaks havoc. But the other side is true too. If you have a gift and you're just lax and you're not doing anything, I think that that actually subtracts from the energy of the body as well. Think about if you're sitting in church and everybody in front of you is yawning, and it's just the surface is dry.

There's something missing. There's an energy missing. And don't be that kind of person that's making that kind of energy in the church, a negative energy. I think it really does it can be contagious too. It can take away the zeal of others. But just like you can be an inspiration to others by your zeal, and it only takes one person sometimes or two people to do that, to just create a whole different atmosphere in a church, I think it can happen that way negatively as well.

I just like to say that I think everybody has a gift. I mean, I don't want this to sound whatever, but don't think you're special because everyone has a gift, and that's the point of the church. Now, the secret, I think, is developing those skills and giving everybody a place and a seat and a job to do. That's where developing church and the energy needs to go into and giving everybody a job, that's when you make headway.

Just because if us four up here sit around and decide what gifts we have, if we can't work together and make something happen and each get jobs and start to move forward, we wouldn't it's not much of a church. So yeah, just learn to look at each one as a positive gift in the church because everyone is. I truly believe that. The scripture on that is 1 Corinthians 12:8. Oh, no, no.

1 Corinthians 12:7, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit with all." And then it says, "To one is given," and then it goes on the different gifts. So it's not just Brother Kevin's opinion that every believer has a gift or gifts. Amen. Yes. Kind of a statement and a question. How much responsibility or not how much, but aren't there more well, let's just say the parents. How much responsibility is it for the parents to find the giftedness in their children?

I see this place is full of children. So what responsibility do the parents have of finding that giftedness and encouraging it, like the one brother said when he was 18 years old? We still have kids. Looks like everyone's scared to answer here. I'll just give you my experience. I have eight children. I didn't particularly sit around and think about what each gift my children has.

I spent a lot of time encouraging them and being supportive and building their faith because I think as children grow up, they develop into their gifts. As they get older, you start to see those gifts, obviously. But I don't know. I just never spent a ton of time making that my main focus. Maybe I did it wrong. Yeah. That's why I didn't answer right away.

I thought, "Well, I know what I did, but I can't think of a chapter and verse." Is actually somebody had said oh, Brother Kevin said, "Do things that you're not gifted in." Well, that's the first thing I do with my children is I really try to help them do all the things that they're not gifted in because it helps them to be more like Christ. And I want them to be well-rounded and to learn to do things.

But then over the years, I've actually been corrected and thought, "Actually, it's good to help them." It was the same thing that was done to me. I started to do to them. But then I started to try to notice areas where they flourished and areas they loved to serve and started pouring cold water on that and actually watched them flourish even more. And I still like to have them do things they don't like to do, serve in ways that they kind of chafe under. But that's just character, parent things. Hello.

What can we do, if anything, to inspire and encourage those dead members? Preach to the dead men. The dead men. Yeah. The ones that are dead. Preach the gospel to them. But I guess it depends on if they're really dead or if they're just not active. I think an idealistic answer is that I think everyone wants to serve. I could be wrong, but I think people want to be needed. People want to do things of significance. People want to have a place where they know they're needed.

Maybe the problem is they haven't been given that. And maybe we need to lead by example. Number one, they need to see us busy, active, serving. Maybe they need to be served. Maybe in serving them and actually uncovering what their gift is, they could be awakened. But maybe, like Micah said, maybe they're just so dead, they need the gospel preached to them. I suppose there's a lot of nuance to the answer. But it does bring up the point that we were discussing earlier that John brought up about the children.

And that is it's easy for parents to channel your children into supporting you or me and making me look good and all of that. It's kind of a scary thing to cut them loose and support their gifts and their callings. And there's a bit of attention there because I think both are necessary. But there's this transition phase where they go from being our little puppets, if you will, to where suddenly they're full-blown individuals. And they have to be encouraged, released, and strengthened to be who God wants them to be.

But I think that applies to the dead people in the churches too that need to wake up. I'd like to respond to your thought there. I mean, every time I'm up here, I'm always amazed how difficult it is to respond to people's questions because there's such a narrative that they're thinking of that it's hard to know what you sit here and you go around the ring. So when you say dead, that's a strong statement. It's a strong assumption on everybody's part. So I don't know what that definition means to you exactly.

But the thing that I thought about is the best way to inspire somebody is that you become that best person that you can be and a best example and a witness of God. If you're going to wake the dead, that's how it'll be woken, not you chasing them down and pounding their doors and screaming at them and telling them how dead they are. To wake the dead, if you're alive, they'll see that and be attracted to it.

If they're not attracted to you and they don't want the gospel and there are people that don't want it, it's okay. Let them go. I think there was one over here yet. Luke? Yeah. I'm Luke Martin. I'm from New York. And I have a question and a comment concerning the question back here as to whether you should wait for the ministry to recognize your gift.

The comment would be and the question would be, "How could the ministry recognize your gift if you're not exercising it?" So now it seems to me like it's pretty obvious that you need to exercise what you have, and it's very helpful when somebody else recognizes it as well. Thank you. That's good. Anyone want to comment? Hello. I'm Orion from Queensbury, New York.

My question is about new members to the church because if we are evangelizing, then we'll certainly have people come into the church who need to be fed more than to feed. They'll be parasites for a while. They've just heard the gospel. And that can be a rough transition to go from new believer to active church member, I guess you'd say. And I think many churches have different approaches to it. Could some of you speak to how that transition can work? Is it after membership or baptism, or is it gradual?

Is it sudden? Does anyone have any thoughts on that? It's a ladder that we can take up every morning. When I think of an if it's talking about a new believer, not a church transfer, but a new believer, they're babies. My newborn babies, I don't look at my newborn babies and say, "Ah, you parasite. Get out and mow the lawn." I think of this as a tender soul that needs to be nurtured and with its mother and those kind of things. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about, like newborn babes in Christ.

They take a lot. And our household shifts. With a new baby, our whole house order changes. Now, our babies don't guide the house. They're not the leaders. But so much of the household changes to nurture this newborn babe. And yeah, that was the one thing I thought about. I think too it's a process. It doesn't happen overnight.

And Paul says to the Corinthians that I think it was after a couple of years when he writes the letter to them and says, "By the time you should have been teachers, you're still drinking milk." So he's saying there is actually this time. We can be gracious during this time. Expect carnality and immaturity. Expect those things that we need to work on. But there's a time frame when you need to be working toward you're going to be to be you're changing your life.

You're working through this period of time when yeah, perhaps it's more of an intake than it is an output. But I think we must keep the focus on turning that the other way. Look for the small ways in which they serve. I'm always amazed after a fellowship meal. There's always at church when the church is together for a fellowship meal, always amazed at the brothers that just immediately begin to pick up the trays, to grab the broom and sweep the floor.

Those small acts of service are service nonetheless, and they're extremely important. And I think that's a place where new members, new people can when they come or if you are that, let's say that you are that new member, begin to serve in those small ways. Do those little things. Clean the bathrooms. Do the things that nobody else wants to do and doesn't get any glory or credit, but just serve in that way. And if you're not the new member, if you're observing new people coming in, watch for those signs of service.

And if you see them actively doing those things, encourage them, bless them in that. And I think that's how service grows in the church. And if you feel like I don't even know if this is on. If you feel like the Lord is calling you to minister or to teach it's not even on. I could just talk loud. If you feel like the Lord is calling you to minister or to teach or to lead or do some things like that, great type gifts.

And if you're younger or you're newer in the faith, I recommend and encourage find a floor to sweep. Find things to pick up. Find simple ways of service. And it works a depth of humility into your heart to do those things. I don't think Jesus was just saying, "Wash your feet." When you're ruling over a bunch of people, that's like washing their feet. I think he was showing us the way to have a foundation of humility in service.

So when being a leader, being a teacher, being a speaker or something like this could so easily elevate us inside. But when we're serving, when we're doing real practical service-oriented things, it's easy to say, "Well, I'm a prophet. I don't pick up trash. I don't have a gift of picking up trash. That brother's got the gift of service, but I'll just wait till I can prophesy." It's easy to do that, but it's better for me and for my own soul to serve in that way.

And yeah, like I said, it works something deep in us to do that. I just wanted to make a comment yet about women because I think in our conservative cultures, Anabaptist Mennonites, people look on us and they say, "Your women don't speak in church. They don't do a lot in church." And it feels like an oppressive culture. But I like to say it's actually the complete opposite. When we sit in church on a Sunday morning, we're together for maybe an hour or two out of the week.

But God has called you sisters to prophesy as much as anybody else. When you go out through the week, you've got all week to speak the Word of God. You get asked more questions than a lot of us men do. God bless every one of you with that just feel that commission that God has given you to speak forth for Him. That's prophesying. And do that. That's your calling. Mothers, if you feel like you're too busy to serve the church, there's a time in life when you're rocking babies.

But remember, the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. You're doing one of the greatest services that anybody could do on this earth for the kingdom. Amen. Well said, brother. Amen. I'm sorry. I just want to respond to that. I just think of the sisters who got chained to their kitchen tables. Those were the prophetesses. Those were them who prophesied. They were busy. They couldn't hold back.

They were in the market, and they were meeting with their friends, and the gospel was just coming out from their hearts. Amen. Amen. Well, I think we're going to bring this to a close. I think we need to wrap this up. So thank you so much for your attention. Thank you for your questions. Thank you for your input.