"Panel Discussion on CGS 2024 messages" | CGS 2024

Lesson Transcript

Okay, thank you. Um, and yeah, I was really blessed this, I'll say afternoon, morning and afternoon, um, the teaching we've had. And looking forward to some time of discussion here. We are, we are working with, uh, a fairly tight time frame, so we're gonna want to try to keep this moving. But want to give you as a, as the listeners some time to ask some questions, and the brothers here some time to respond.

Uh, as we were planning this whole session, we were thinking, I, I at least I thought about some, like, is there some theme that kinda ties this together? And I feel like there is actually listening to this. And I was thinking about some Bible memory our family's been working at, and maybe some of the rest of you have been. It talks about Jesus seeing the multitudes. He went up into a mountain when he was seated. His disciples came to him.

He opened his mouth and he taught them, saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." And I think that just that, that first statement that Jesus says, it just kinda resonated with me as I, as I listened to each of you brothers talk. So I, so I have a question here. I want to start out with, and then we will o-open it up for, uh, responses from the, or, or for questions from, from you all. Um, so I'm gonna, going to direct a question here at Brother Melvin.

Okay, so, so you used the, the First Corinthians passage about the body, right? And, and the body and how the body's not, not the whole body's the foot, not the whole body's the hand. So is part of my question is, is the local brotherhood the complete body? And related to that is you, you, you talked about submission. And how do we submit to, and or if the local brotherhood is not the complete body, how do we submit to the global church? So what do you have some comments on that, Melvin?

Well, yes, I think that, uh, I sort of off the cuff here, the, the teaching there in First Corinthians 12 seems to be aimed at the local body. And, and they're being, being given the, the clear instruction that, uh, within the local body there are gifts and differences. I took the liberty to expand that and generalize it a bit to the, uh, to the larger body of believers or the worldwide body, you might say, uh, trying to emphasize though that we live in the local sense. And that's where this really gets worked out.

So if I'm understanding your question, uh, I did use it in both ways locally and, uh, further out. And then your second part of your question was about the authority thing there, or, or the submission. So we're submitting to who? Uh, yes, well, that's a really good question. I think that as, uh, corporate bodies, we should pay attention to the greater Christian tradition. So an example here would be the Apostolic, uh, or the Apostles' Creed, let's say.

Okay, so there has been generation generationally over what, uh, 2,000 years here, a, an accumulation of, um, truth as it has been worked out. I shouldn't say accumulation, an expression of truth. It has been, as it has been worked out in the church in various ways. Uh, we should give attention there. And in that sense, submit to the larger body politic, so to speak, on a, uh, however, I will still insist that where the rubber hits the road is in the local body of Christ where I'm participating.

And I, I, I think there's probably a greater level of participation by a congregation on a congregational level today than what there used to be, at least in my life, for that way. So we have a chance to, to, or we have opportunity to contribute there.

Um, and then yes, in a world where there's a lot of individuality and I'm my own person and I'm my own or whatever, um, I think we find, I find the, the capacity to submit to my brothers, not when they are doctrinally wrong, but even there I want to, I want to engage in, in discussion. We're right in the middle of one right now at Meadville Mennonite Chapel where I'm a pastor. Not gonna tell you what it is.

I'm just gonna say that we're, we're in it and, and working hard to try to find a, a place where we can all submit to. This is hard work. Okay, maybe that's enough. Hey, thank you, Melvin. And, and sorry, I didn't make this clear, but for those in the congregation, please, if you have a question, stick your hand up, get it up in the air, and, uh, one of the brothers here will bring a mic to you so that you can, you can ask that question and we can have some discussion around that.

All right, a question to Brother Melvin. You talked about the appreciation for our roots and culture, I think. And how do you balance it with, um, new believers that don't have that? I, I've been somewhat quiet about that to them because they, they have as much of an opportunity as I have. So how, how do you balance that? Yes, that's a very good question. Actually, I have it in my notes for Sunday morning to talk about that a bit because that is a question. And it's a good one. Uh, clearly roots need to be created.

Uh, so, but that's a slow process. And how do you talk to them about it? Uh, yeah, I'm jumping ahead here a little bit, but Sunday morning, so identity, belonging, significance, and do I count and all of that, uh, is very important. And when it comes to new believers, when I both new believers from my family and new believers from outside of a rooted, uh, community, um, it's a process to build those roots. And see, our brother here, I should give this to Justin.

He talked about the discipleship thing and, and, uh, the work that is required there. Um, so yeah, I'm not asking you to be here Sunday morning, but that's actually where, uh, I'll try to tangle with that question just a little bit more. But the short answer, now I gave too long of an answer. You know, that's why all the experts do. They give you a long one and you can't understand it. Uh, so the short answer is, well, uh, I thought actually, let me back up 'cause I thought you were gonna ask a different question.

I thought you were gonna ask what should be done if their roots are at the wrong place. And that happens. Uh, so in one sense, we're talking about there has to be a rerootedness. And I, you know, I don't want to push that subject too hard because, but I'm just saying that that's a piece of, that's a piece of what needs to happen for believers coming into our circles. And that rootedness surrounds a couple of words: identity, significance, belonging. And those are the things that need to be created.

And it's beyond the moment here to discuss that. Yeah. Do you have any of your brothers have some comments on this, Justin? So in our congregation, we would have a good many people who come from non-Anabaptist background, um, some on church, but mainly like from the broader evangelical world. And my wife is actually an example of this. She, she grew up in a on-church family.

And, and yet at the same time, she's able to go back and there were instances and there were periods in her life, okay, her mom might have took them to church once in a while. She, other people took her to church and, and it wasn't all good, but, but in that, there was glimpses of good and light that she received. And she's thankful for that. Like there, I, I don't know. I think, I think it was God in some way working with her.

But I've heard this, I've heard this from many people who, who may not have an ideal background or church situation that they come from, and yet there's something, whatever, godly grandmother, um, some short church experience somewhere, or even the church they were at that, that maybe wasn't ideal, but, but, but God got a hold of them there. So I think normally I can think of one situation where probably one of our, uh, members would have a hard time going back and finding anything good.

But that's, that's very rare. I think normally, uh, there is something to go back and be thankful for, even if it isn't, you know, an Anabaptist background. So in the, in the first century, the, the conflict between the Jews and the Gentiles, so you have the, the Jewish roots, if you will, and then you also have the Gentiles. And the language that's used there is being grafted in. So there's a grafting into another root system. Maybe sometimes that's instructive. Hey, thank you, brothers.

Okay, I think we have another question back here. Oh. Subject is, uh, church growth, church growth. You know, I've dealt with the matter for probably more than 45 years. And this matter is how the church, uh, I'm not talking about some church, some people, some, uh, or other people or other denominations. It's, it's everybody I've contacted as far as I know. It's the, the verse is James 2:19. It says, "Thou believeth that there is one God.

Thou doest wail; the devil is also believing tremble." People talk about, uh, fellowship, strength. What should our fellowship be for church growth and, uh, changing the world or affecting the world? Should the church continually revert James 2:19 and only use five words to make it appear that James is saying the devil's believe God when it really doesn't? And this is, this is where the seed is planted to promote this idea. And I know by communicating people that it is.

So should the church, the Scriptures says, "Grow in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." They talk about growing in the grace and humility and being concerned about the people you're speaking to. But should we continue to fellowship and grow and, and, uh, leadership continue to, to revert James 2:19? Don't speak what it says to your neighbor. This is the most despised verse in the Bible that I know anything about as far as all the people who confess Christianity.

Should we continue to grow and develop a church in that state of being? I'm convinced the church today needs a reformation as bad as it did in the year of 1500 because of this, this state of being and man's refusal to testify to what James truly says in James 2:19. Thou believeth that there's one God. Thou doest wail; the devil is also believing tremble. Man only uses those five words to make it appear that the devil's believe God. And these are five words of this: the devil's believing tremble.

Before that statement, it's believing God won't save you. But the devil's believing tremble. The Scriptures in John, James 2:23, man likes to come out with these next three verses, James 2:20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith thou works is dead? And then go out with the next verse. Was not Abraham justified of works when he offered up Isaac?

And then it says, "Seeest how he was by faith, he was, uh, worked, made perfect, and the man's shoe shut it down?" And the Scriptures says, "And the Scriptures was fulfilled, which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was kind to him, but righteous." He was called a friend of God. And this is found. Okay, brother, can I, what's, what's your, can we, can you, um, put your question in a few words here for us? What's that? The question. Can you put your question in a few words for us?

Should the church continue its growth in reverting James 2:19? Thank you. Okay, so I'm not sure if I'm following correctly. Do you, do any of your brothers have comments? Did you pick up better than I did maybe? You're saying you're, maybe, maybe, maybe I could say, are you saying that people were saying all that matters is believing in God? And, and Jesus, and James is pointing out that even the devil's believing tremble. Um. Could I ask a question? Yeah, go ahead, Melvin.

So is your question as short as should the church continue growing? Should the church continue growing in reverting James 2:19? That's what it does, everyone I know of. And people act, people act like, I don't know how to describe how people respond to this, but my words are simple. Well, maybe we could talk to you later. I don't know that I understand the context of the question. Yeah. Why don't we move to the question? Do we have a question over here? My name's Luke Martin. Um, my question is, uh, to Melvin.

He was showing all this. Can you put the mic up there now? Just a little bit closer. A little closer. Hold the mic right up. Yeah. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. There you go. Thank you. My name's Luke Martin. My question to Melvin is in him showing the different sizes of the church, the Roman Catholic being the biggest, and then going on. And at the end, he has these fingers of Anabaptists all scattered out. Do you have an answer or how to reverse that? Well, the first question is, should we reverse it?

Because the, the, the punchline of the question was fragmentation or multiplication. And so what I was wanting to show, at least by that flow, was there, there is a flow. There is this dispersion out there on the, on the, the end. And can it be reversed? Uh, for my part, I like to see the church planting or the church growth.

Um, what I'm wishing for is that it would be not because of the splits and the splinters and the disagreements and all of that, but rather a, a deliberate, um, movement where we are mission-minded and we are, uh, we're determined to spread the gospel around the world. So as far as a reversal is concerned, I don't know if we can reverse it. But what can we, what can we, how can we build on what's happened there? What, how can we bring it together in a, uh, yeah, in a, in a good way?

And I don't have a good answer there, brother. I really, I don't. But I have put my life on the line to say that Christ is building his church. Now I'm going to jump in there and have the confidence that, uh, there must be a way in which this group can come together in a solid, committed way to, to help each other and not fight each other. I'll say it that way. It's a poor answer, but it's the best I can do. Yeah. Thank you. So that reminds me of, so I'm going to, when, when Justin was speaking, I had this thought.

So he talked about the, the disc brakes, you know, the integral, integral system where you have the hub and the, the rotor as one piece. Um, and he, he, he kind of implied that those are more valuable than the ones that aren't like that, or at least they're, they, they, they get a higher price. And so like, like that tells me, and there's, there's almost, there's a little picture of that, of the, of the value of unity and the value of working together, right, at least.

So I imagine at your trailer yard, there's, there's like, there's probably loose parts or there's parts somewhere that are stocked. And if you would just take, um, a mix of all these parts, could you build a trailer? You know, would they work together good enough? It might look a little funny. Um, but like how can we be unified in, in either as a small brotherhood setting? I think that's the, I, that's the most important part, place to take that.

But how can we be unified when we have such, when we can at least have such diverse backgrounds and stories that have shaped us and, you know, visions of what, what it means to have a, a God-honoring, a Christ-following church? Um, Justin, do you? I think that kind of ties in with this question too. So maybe I, do you have thoughts on that? Yeah. That's a, that's a big, that's a big thought. We, we, we definitely do, we should have a vision of greater unity outside of our own congregation.

And that starts with our, our mindset. It does start with how we think about others. Are we being critical and judgmental of other congregations? Or as Melvin pointed out in his talk, are we, are we okay with them setting their boundaries and we respect that and honor them for that? Um, it had, it, it's got to start somewhere. Um, unity needs to start somewhere.

And I think it's going to have to start with each of us evaluating that in our own lives, our own response to either it's where we came from or the other congregations around us that we may differ with in many areas. And yet can we give them the benefit of the doubt that they, they are to the best of their ability, um, serving the kingdom and, and, and, and being willing to participate with them in that and, and interact with them and fellowship with them when we have opportunity?

I think, I think it has to start right at home. Um, obviously the unity needs to start right at home and then branch out from there. Uh, but, but it is a vision we have to have. If we don't have that vision, it won't happen. Comments, Andrew? So the thoughts that I was thinking about as, as Melvin was sharing that this morning.

So behind me on the screen, he projected on the screen on the left hand or I guess my right hand side was like the old order groups and then moving across to more dispersed, independent, unaffiliated type of groups. Did I say that correctly? Yep. And, uh, at some level, that's somewhat generationally driven. So grandfather might be in the old order setting, son leaves that and goes to a quasi-conference setting, and then grandson leaves and he goes to a more independent setting.

And then maybe by fourth generation, great-grandson wants nothing to do with it. And the question is, why is this migration happening and what can be done to, to reverse it or stall it? So now maybe it's a good thing. So Melvin did not say it's a bad thing. He said that maybe it's a dispersion. It's its type, its own type of, uh, diaspora, right? And, um, but I think the thing to maintain, maintain an integrity across that migration, so I won't use the word fragmentation or multiplication.

I'll use the word migration because that's kind of a neutral term, I believe, here, right? So in that migration, I think when you, let's think about this in terms of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or Lois, Eunice, Timothy, you have an intergenerational faith happening there. So what moves and what should move from the Timothy, Eunice, Lois is honor, where honor moves this direction. And I think entrustment moves this direction.

So many times entrustment isn't happening because there isn't honor, and honor isn't happening because there's dishonor. So I think part of the answer, I think that's true of intergenerational faith, but I think it could also be true in that same picture that Melvin gave, that if there would be more honor moving back, there would be more cooperation and entrustment moving the other direction. Well said. I think that's, uh, that's good.

A very practical thing that's been helpful for me is it was when some went to public schools and didn't have any instruction in church history. But I began to church study church history and teach it. I'm like, "Oh, so that's what happened." Um, and began to understand at a deeper level how all of these things happened. And, uh, then came to commit my life to saying, "Look, I want to be a part of the solution, not a continuing part of the problem." Yeah. Thank you. I think we have another question back here.

Um, I guess my question would be, um, thinking about like tradition and valuing our tradition and our heritage, what happens to us as individuals, but also in a broader sense, in a, in a church group or at a group level when as churches we begin to decide that, you know, we want to maintain the traditions that we've had in the past, we're losing some of these things, we want to tighten the grip on some of these things?

What happens to us as individuals and even at a broader group level when as a church we take that, uh, that stand, I guess? Hey, thank you for the question. I'm going to, Melvin, let you answer some, and then we got to get you, we got to get you to the next place. So. Yeah, I'll make your comment on that. Yeah, it's important to make a difference between the levels of traditions. When I talk about it, I'm talking about deep tradition.

And an example I would give is just in the culture, our own culture, American Western culture. Take for example, I know likely some of you are against Christmas and all of that, and that's fine. But what would happen to American culture if you, or Western culture, if you could suddenly somehow mysteriously axe the Christmas tradition that happens at the end of the year? Would it change anything? I would tell you that it would dramatically change something.

Uh, if that, and I didn't say it would be good or bad, but it would change. Why? Because that's a deep tradition. Okay. There are surface traditions that sometimes we make too much of. Uh, just be clear on that. I, I know that. Aware of it. Uh, I'm more concerned about what we do with the deep traditions, uh, that, that really have held us center for years and years and years. And if I had time, I would talk about it. I am so glad it's 2:00 and I have to leave. Okay. Thank you so much, Melvin. God bless you.

Looking forward to hearing some more from you later, but maybe we can just finish this up a little bit yet here. So do you have, do you have comments, brothers? Well, we do have another question down here. I have a question for the rest there. I should be probably on Melvin, but I think that the rest can probably answer it. I guess the question I would have is how we can maintain life and not so focused. I think the Anabaptists, I might come up, they'll think out of the box.

So the Anabaptists tend to have a very focus on the local body and a very focus on, on being the, the, the body. But is there a point where we can focus so point that we miss the goal of the vision of having for outreach to bring in people in from the outside? Um, I guess in my vision, the goal that I'd like to see is that we're, I guess how to, to maintain a relationship yet with the, the very minded Anabaptist people to start churches. It's great to start churches, but are we doing it in a way without life?

How do we do that without losing the life of Christ? And because we can do it, what, what makes a church? That's one for Justin. I don't know if I totally understood the question. I think I had those same thoughts 20 years ago when I was young and energetic and had lots of vision and little wisdom. And I'm not saying you're at that place, all right? That's where I was. And I, I really pushed against this thing of, yeah, what, why, why aren't we like, whatever, going out and doing big things?

And why is so much focus on the local body? And what I lacked was, was submission to the local body. What I lacked was wisdom and experience. And I realized now what people were telling me, to me it sounded like dumping cold water on my vision and my dreams and what I wanted to happen. But in reality, I think in retrospect it was people trying to give me wisdom that I wasn't ready for that. There was, there's things I need to learn first.

And so the value of learning submission, learning to operate as a body in a local setting is, is huge if you even want to impact, have an impact out beyond that. Like I don't think, I really don't think, and this is personal experience, I really don't think you will have an impact outside if, if you're not able to work together with your local fellowship, with your local church.

That's, that's just kind of like, um, a primary, a primary way that, that you're going to learn those, those tools and get equipped to even go out and do anything. So I don't, I don't know if that's answering your question. We could talk later. I, I think I sense what you're saying and it's, um, I do understand the, the frustration with, with feeling like there's too much focus and, and that, that can happen. We can focus too much inward and not be making an, having an impact outward. That is, that is true.

And I, we spent, we spent a number of years just dowling in on that. What it was we wanted our vision to be, how we wanted to do evangelism, how we wanted leadership to look like, kind of developing the model that we wanted. And I'm really thankful for those years that we did that. Like that was, that was so crucial to, to prepare for growth and to prepare for impacting the world outside of our, our local community. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's, hopefully that's helpful.

I think vision is important. Yeah. Setting out with a vision and, and absolutely the Holy Spirit's presence, the, the life of Christ, discipleship, the bringing of the kingdom of God in all things. There's no purpose. Or really the only purpose in planning churches should be to bring an outpost to the kingdom of heaven there. And that's the life. And then there's all these other things that what's, what's obedience, what's life together look like and all of that.

And, but certainly leading with that vision I think is important. Thank you for your question. Do we have one back there or Kent? Yeah. Go ahead. I can speak. Okay. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. My name is Andrea Mormons and I came from, um, the east, the western end of Virginia near the Tennessee border. I just found out about this conference two days ago and I had hoped to come with my whole family, but my husband couldn't make it. And so I appreciate this opportunity given to me to ask this question.

I did come with four other family members and we arrived here at 1:00 in the morning. Um, firstly, I am not a public speaker, so it's very scary for me. Secondly, I've been praying since Melvin spoke about whether or not to ask this question. But his diagram in the beginning really cut me because I come out of Roman Catholicism and I have been a part of reformed Protestant evangelical churches. There's been a progression and I ended up, um, in Anabaptist circles.

And it started many years ago when I was praying for the truth and the Lord to lead me to the truth. Um, and I guess one thing he had said was he has seen many people grow up in the tradition, um, in Anabaptist families and that few come in and that even those who do often leave or move on.

And so I don't want to share about my own struggles here, but I guess I just wonder, is there a forum or a place where people from my background or, or similar backgrounds, the journey our family has taken, can talk, um, with people in Anabaptist leadership or where, where people in, um, your community reach out to those asking why they left? Um, because I know we have had experiences and we certainly, we are so eager to be a part of this community and we, we recognize that this is where the truth is.

We have, it was reading Matthew 5 that brought us, um, to this place in our journey. Um, but we feel very lonely where we are because there aren't many communities around us. And those that are, um, we have a hard time fellowshipping with and becoming a part of. Um, we end up fellowshipping oftentimes with people on a very superficial level, but then we go home and have communion privately in our home amongst ourselves.

And so it's just something that I have on my heart, um, as scary as that is to say this, to, to just put out there for something to be in prayer about. Um, because there is a need and there are people who are open, um, but there's some disconnect there. So. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for hearing. Thank you, sister. Glad to have you here. And, um, I don't know, I don't know if I have any comment, but do any of your brothers have comments on, on a, on a way of forum to hear, hear some of those people who have left?

Maybe, maybe Melvin would probably have the wisdom here, but, um, that's, that's a good, it's a good question and I think it's something we should think about and pray about. Okay. You have a question? Go ahead, Billy. Yeah. So I've been really, uh, supportive of the cultural benefits of the Anabaptist world since I came into connection with it, uh, decade, almost two decades ago, and have spent time in various Anabaptist churches.

And I've done a lot of work and study and pondering and dealing with this question of cultural, the cultural questions. And very similar to what the sister was sharing, um, there. And the brother over here asked a question about how do we mix Anabaptist, non-Anabaptist peoples? And he was talking from a cultural perspective.

And that it struck me again, which is a very common thing that we talk about often, but when the, we go to the scriptures with that and it's always seems to be brought up by Anabaptist peoples that, yeah, the, well, when we go to the scriptures with that, what we see is that there's a grafting in. And we go and we look at where the Jews existed and then the Gentiles were grafted in. But what I find is that the Anabaptist people seem to think that they're the Jews, right?

And that we that came from heathen world are the Gentiles. But the Anabaptist people are heathen Gentiles as well. That's right. And the culture they carry is not like the sister said, very excited because she made the comment, this is where the truth is. And I agree there are, we're attracted to the Anabaptist world because there are some truths lived out here that aren't lived out where we came from. The obvious things of modesty and head veiling.

And I saw a sign on a van out there about, uh, divorce and remarriage. And when you come from a family that's full of that, you admire that. You appreciate it. I recently wrote a, a, um, what do you call it? Book review of Hector Troyer's book and very praised it very much for the idea that we need to go put an Anabaptist church in front of every American, within 10 miles of every American so they can see the faith lived out. And I very much agree with that.

But is there not an arrogance in the idea that because we're Anabaptist, you all heathens need to be grafted into us? I mean, I'm just thinking of cultural characteristics of the Mennonite, Amish, Mennonite, what I call Mennodom world that are not better than cultural characteristics of other groups of cultural groups of people. Yeah. And I guess my question boils down to when are we going to get honest with that? Because the word Money Knights doesn't exist because it's not a thing, right? It's actually a thing.

Like there are cultural groups of people who do way better at, um, materialism and physical wealth than Mennodom does, for instance. Or there are groups of cultural groups of people out there in the king in Christendom, say, who are significantly better at outreach than the Mennodom world. And just different things like that. So, or better at trying to do it. I don't know if they're better at succeed. I don't know.

Maybe I'm, anyway, I'm just trying to make a couple of examples where overall I think Anabaptist world, Anabaptist background people's cultural world is a good one. I think it's a good culture and I associate with it. And yet it seems impossible often to question the flaws and to deal with the, the errancies. And those are brushed over. And then because we're the Jews and we need to graft in the Gentiles, that's the only equation we're looking at.

And I'm wondering what, is there any chance that that is, uh, is there any hope that that's actually going to change or is that just so much a part of the culture that it can't be? Because. Yeah. Good question. Anyway. So you're saying, what I'm hearing you say is, is how can Anabaptists recognize what is truly the difference between culture and the, the faith ones delivered to the saints and recognize that they don't have the market on the whole thing?

There are other cultural groups of people out there that have pieces of this faith ones delivered that are, they're better at. Mm-hmm. And what I see is people that are zealous, like the sister, like my family was and many others that come to the Anabaptists thinking, hey, we found the church. Yay. This is great. We couldn't believe it. You know? I picked up a Bible and started following it on my own. And then I, years later, ran into Anabaptist world and said, hey, look, great.

We found a church that's the real thing, you know? But that zeal to, to come out of the world, as we say in the Anabaptist world, and deny everything you've ever done, ever been in your family and your traditions and all everything, and go this other way and join this other group culturally just to be a part of them. And then find out, it takes years usually to find out that that group of, that culture is full of people. That group of people is full of people who are just doing what they do.

They just didn't leave their culture. And you end up passing by. Yeah. Yeah. Hey. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, I don't want to drag on. No, thank you, Billy. But I feel like maybe, maybe you are more, maybe, maybe you are more, um, in a place to speak to this than some of us. But what do you, what do you, Justin or Andrew, what do you have some comments? So I, I did use the language of grafting in, but I use it as an analogy, not as a reality.

Like I don't see the Anabaptist people as the Jews and I don't see that they, like everyone needs to be grafted into that. So while I use that, I'm not using it in the same way that sometimes it is used. That said, my vision would be that we would have, we would understand what obedience to Jesus looks like. And we would be able to identify principles of what that looks like.

And then we could invite into the conversation not only seekers, but also the next generation to be part of that conversation of how we're going to live that out. When we grasp the principles of what obedience looks like or what obedience is, there's multiple cultural ways to be obedient to that.

And I would hope to be able to include the next generation in trusting with them the ability to make the decision and the, and the seekers, the ability to help make decisions, all the while honoring my father and where I came from. Honoring, not necessarily copying or obeying in every respect, but complete and total honor. Yeah, I agree with Andrew and I really feel, I really feel you, brother. So unfortunately, in many Anabaptist circles, the only thing left is culture.

And something that we've been talking about a lot is the importance of having vision, history, theology, and culture. You don't want to lose any of those four, um, or there's going to be trouble. There's going to be problems. There's going to be, there's going to be inconsistencies. And we're going to go, we're going to go down a, there's going to be drift, basically.

Um, but unfortunately, in many, in the Anabaptist world and many places, and I'm not saying this to be critical, but it is just the case, um, history, they don't know their history. They've, they've adopted a wrong theology and they don't have a vision. And so they're left with culture. And when you step into that, everything may look good from the outside, but when you step into that, it's not going to take long to realize that, that it's, it's fairly empty.

And I don't have, I don't have all the solutions to that, but I do know that there are many, many groups in the Anabaptist world who are pushing against that and, and who are wanting to know their history and who want a good theology and who have a vision. And they also want to keep the culture because there's lots and lots of good things about the culture that we don't want to lose. So my encouragement to you and to the other sister that spoke is don't give up. Like keep, keep, keep searching there.

There are communities out there that, that you can definitely, um, submit yourself to and become, become a part of and enjoy and have good fellowship. I know they're out there. Just keep looking. Yeah. Maybe just a comment here if I'm allowed. Um, so I, like, I, I've heard, you know, I've heard so many people like you, Billy, and others that, and that, that have faced issues like that. And I think for us who have grown up in this world, um, it's important that we hear other people, that we hear your voices.

Um, like for instance, I sat down in our brothers, in our brotherhood, we had a discussion about, um, little girls' hairstyles, okay? So I, in the background I grew up, the more conservative you were, the more you had your daughters wearing braids, their hair in braids, okay? And the brother said to, said to us, he doesn't understand why these girls wear such elaborate hairstyles. And from my background, that was the plainest you could be, was to have your daughter in braids. Do you see the disconnect there?

I mean, and, and, and to hear him say that really opened my eyes to the way he saw it. So yeah, anyhow, did, I don't know, Kent, how long are we going to take this? We have a couple of questions coming yet. Is that curtains? We, do we, we have two more yet? Do we have one here? Not a question, but just a small comment. I've been doing this for 28 years trying to graft. Billy, give it some, it gets easier. And sister, stick around for this weekend.

This is probably the best in, in my years of attending all kind of Anabaptist things. Uh, yeah, the best time to, to learn about it and be a part and, and enjoy the benefits. Thank you. One back there with Kent. Um, so I really enjoyed the Keys to Greatness talk. Um, I think that for most of us, the most important leadership position we'll have is as parents. Uh, so I guess I kind of had two questions, one general and one specific.

In general, how do we know, um, how do all of those principles apply to leading our children? And then for the specific question, when our child is in error, how do we know if we are using eye for eye and tooth for tooth punishment versus discipline that serves our child? Good question. So yeah, I, I agree that in leadership, children is, families is probably primary. It's probably the most, the one that will affect us the longest. And there is a sense of age appropriateness that goes along with, with entrustment.

So when Jesus said, don't rule over your, basically Gentile style lordship is, is ruling over. And you can basically say that in a way, what Jesus is saying is don't violate the personhood of another. Like don't rule over him in a way that robs his autonomy. But that can only be fully released to an adult if then. Like when a two-year-old child is racing for the street, he doesn't recognize the danger.

And so that long mom arm, long mom arm will reach out 50 feet and grab that little child by his shoulder and physically violate his will. His will was to cross the road. And you're restraining that from happening because he doesn't recognize the danger. You did not disobey Jesus. At some level, you were being responsible to your responsibilities. And that is to keep your child safe. So there is an, there's an age appropriateness to what all of this looks like.

But as your child gets older, more and more you need to begin to release. That release starts, I don't know when, but you begin to trust and begin to release. You see how well they do with responsibility. And when they do well, you give them more. Um, I'm struggling with letting go. I had a son get married in June. I had a daughter get married in July. And I put a daughter on an airplane this morning for Thailand for six weeks. And these people are, these children are out from under my control.

You got to let them go. But it's got to be age appropriate. How then does corporal punishment weigh into that? Foolishness is bound in the heart of the child. The route of correction will drive it far from him. It does need to be done, needs to be age appropriate, and by all means cannot be done in anger. Don't, if your spirit is out of control, please don't discipline your child. Wait until your spirit's in control. And you might be surprised when your spirit's in control, maybe your child will stop acting up too.

Maybe not always, but the correlations exist. Thank you, Andrew. Do you have any comments, Justin? Okay. Well, good. I was, I'm glad that we did get at least one comment, question aimed for Andrew.