The Nicene Creed Guards the Bedrock of Our Faith - Stephen Russell

Most pagans had an idea that the physical world was either eternal, it always existed, or it was made by mistake. It's not either way; it wasn't a really good thing, and it's the reason we have so many suff— we have so much suffering in this world. Interesting. Look at this: you can't come to the church, and you've got to say, "I believe the creed," before you got baptized. You can't come into the church if— and look, I believe in God the Father Almighty made the physical world. Well, yes, that's what it says here.

So, Mr. Russell, you have spent a lot of time reading, studying, and teaching church history, and there's a really important piece of church history we want to talk about today, and that's the Nicene Creed. Amen. But let's, like, walk it way back to the basics. Mm-hmm. Tell us, what is the Nicene Creed? Well, the Nicene Creed is a— a creed that was, um, come up with in 325 and slightly revised in 381, and that's the— that's the form we still use today, the one that comes from 381. And it was, uh, found to be necessary to— to say what the church universally believes. Now, there were creeds before this. Every church had a creed. The Apostles' Creed was the Roman creed way before this.

We— we have— we know that it goes back to at least 150. Oh. AD 150, the— the Apostles' Creed. Okay. And the Apostles' Creed also developed over time. So, locals had— different locals had their own local creed. They were all Trinitarian. They all said, "We believe in one God, the Father. We believe in Jesus Christ, his Son, and we believe in the Holy Spirit." They all said that. They had more or less items in— in them according to what was needed in that area. And so, just to give an example, um, apparently in the western part of the church, and maybe most, uh, definitely in Spain, there was some kind of question about, "Did Jesus descend into hell?"

So the Apostles' Creed has he— and he descended into hell. Mm-hmm. The Nicene Creed doesn't have that, but the eastern part of the church also believed that. We— I can— I could show that very easily. Uh, they believed that Jesus de— descended into hell and broke the bars of Hades, of hell, um, and— and took the redeemed with him. So all— way before the Nicene Creed, there were local creeds, and this was not meant to supersede them, but it was meant to say, "This is what the whole church believes." So it was more— it was even at first perhaps more a focus, "What does the bishop say at this locale?" So whenever a new bishop of Rome was chosen, he sent this— he sent the Nicene Creed to the east.

They still recognized the emperor as somehow kind of over things, and so he would send this— the Nicene Creed to the east to ask the emperor to approve of his, uh, ordination as bishop of Rome. Mm-hmm. So it's not that they didn't have their own local creed, but this is— this is the one that's kind of overarching. Could it be said that they're thinking of this is the orthodox standard— orthodoxy of Christianity? These are the core elements of what Christianity is. Yes. Essentially in one statement. Yes. Well, okay, so it seems appropriate then. Let's just read the Nicene Creed, which I— doing research for this, it's like, but it's actually not that long. You know, it's not some massive, you know, systematic theological book or something.

I mean, this is just a simple statement. Yes. Um, that has been around for a really long time. You made a good point. This isn't super long. Um, I use this in some of my classes, and I had somebody complain that, um, this doesn't have any of the story. Well, we already have the story in the Gospels.

This is the outline of who God is. He's Father, Son, and Spirit, and what God did for us. Uh, I'm just gonna read in the middle of the part on Jesus, "For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven and was born of the Virgin Mary." It's— it's the core. It's the key ideas that come out of the Gospels. So it would— it would be needless. The— the early church read the Gospels all the time. It would be needless to have that narrative. And I know, uh, in today's world, we really say a lot about narrative. Well, we've got the narrative. It's in the Gospels. But what is the— the outline? What is the— the core?

And so that's what this is. This is the outline of what every Christian should believe and understand as much as a human can, who— who our God is and what Jesus did and what the Spirit is doing now. Mm-hmm. So you want me to read it? Yes. Yes, please do.

Uh, there are different, uh, translations. This is the one that I usually use when I have my class memorize it. "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day, he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Amen." Mm-hmm. So the core ideas. Mm-hmm. So this might be one people will be curious on. It says one holy Catholic church. I think I got that correct. Yes. One holy Catholic and apostolic church. And apostolic church. Well. So, so is this a— is this only Roman Catholic is probably what people will assume? No. Uh, it is— well, first of all, the first recorded time that we have an early church father using the word Catholic for the church is, uh, the bishop Ignatius of Antioch. He was captured by the Roman emperor and sent to Rome to be executed, and he was. On the way to Rome, he— he was given permission to write to the churches along the way.

He did write to the church of Rome as well before he got there, and he wrote at least one to an individual, Polycarp. He is the first person that we actually have it recorded in one of his letters. I don't remember. At least one of his letters, he calls— he says the Catholic Church, which simply means the universal church. It's a recognition that there is one church. Well, it says one. It's a holy— it's holy. It doesn't mean that everybody is perfect. Mm-hmm. And it's Catholic. It's worldwide. There is one true church, and it's apostolic. That's the true part. I mean, we're— we're following the— the Apostles' teaching.

So this is a perfectly good word. In some— in some Protestant translations, you'll see, "We believe in one holy universal church," I think they, they often say. Yeah. It's— it's sort of the same idea, but this is actually the— a word that was used very early on. Mm-hmm. The Catholics and the Orthodox still use Catholic as the word for the church. Um, so, um, if you talk to an Orthodox person, he'll say, "Yeah, we're the Catholic Church." And if you ask a Catholic, he'd say, "Well, of course we're Orthodox." Um, but in general, um, Catholic, since the two churches split, has been more used by the Western church and Orthodox, more used by the Eastern church.

Mm-hmm. When we're looking at this creed, like, who wrote it? When did they write it? You know, why did they believe they needed to write this creed? Like, was— did something happen that said, "Okay, we gotta write this"? Mm-hmm. Because if I'm remembering right, well, you— you just said 325 and then a slight revision in 381, I think. 381. So we're talking 300 years after Jesus. Yeah. So why did they wait 300 years? Like, I just kind of walk me through the process here. They didn't wait. There were local creeds. Mm-hmm. And every one of them was Trinitarian.

They were working off of something called the kerygma. The kerygma was the proclamation that the Apostles all knew and carried with them before anything in the New Testament was written. Mm-hmm. So Jesus, in his ministry, was teaching the Apostles the truth. They didn't get it. When he— when he died, they— they scattered. They were— yeah. They were depressed. Nothing— everything's gone. And then he rose from the dead, and they were shocked. And then it says in Luke, um, after the resurrection and until the, um, ascension, it says that he opened their minds to the Scripture, and that's the Old Testament. Mm-hmm. He helped them see how everything that he did was represented either literally or allegorically in the Old Testament.

So before the church had a New Testament, the first— the first book of the New Testament was written probably in 48. And if we say that the— that Jesus died and rose again either at 30 or 33, those— somewhere in there, we're talking about something like 18 or 15 years no New Testament Scripture. But they had the kerygma. They had the proclamation. They knew what they— they taught the same thing everywhere. And eventually, this— this kerygma was, um, a little bit more or less formalized as what's called the rule of faith. The rule of faith, you can read it in Irenaeus, in Tertullian, in, um, Origen, and I think Clement, at least in those four.

And they don't give everything, but they just say, "This was what was passed down to us. This is what was handed on way before the Scriptures, the New Testament Scriptures were written." And you're saying this is all within a decade or two or three, uh, of Jesus. Well. Or no? Well, the kerygma stems directly from his teaching. The rule of faith, probably, uh, the first one is probably something like 150-ish. Okay. So that's definitely later. That's the rec— that's the record of it. Ah. You know what I'm saying? Okay. The first time we have somebody use the word Trinity in the East, it's around, I think, around 150, and in the West, it's around 180.

Mm-hmm. And in both cases, it's— it's, uh, used, um, in a writing by— by a Greek father and a Latin father without any explanation. In other words, okay, even though it's 120 or 150 years after Jesus died and rose again, Mm-hmm, it's presented as something that was understood. Yeah. Now, not— not that you didn't have to explain it as in, "Oh, this is something we've already been teaching." Yes. Yeah. Now, I— their earlier teaching would have been, and this is normal, would have been, uh, vaguer than what comes later because what happens is people start asking questions, whether it's pagans asking questions or Christians asking questions. Well, what does this mean? How can Jesus be fully God and fully man?

Or is he fully God and fully man? So, um, these ideas are already there in the kerygma. I don't know when the— the word Trinity came into use, but when you look at the, um, the rules of faith, which come out of the kerygma, they're organized in— in this— in the same way the creed is. We believe in one God. He is the Father, and we believe in his son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

And so I would argue that all of this idea was, uh, was in the very earliest teaching of the church. Mm-hmm. And, um, uh, as the need arose, it— it got more formalized into the local creeds. And we do know one of the things that they did with these local creeds was they taught new believers.

Mm-hmm. And so that's— that's catechesis. Oh. So that— that would be like someone new to the faith is coming in, and you would start them with something like this, saying, "These are the foundation cornerstones." And there's a reason. Yeah. Okay. The first thing that I read was, "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen." If you come from paganism, most pagans had an idea that the physical world was either, uh, eternal. It— it always existed, or it was made by mistake. It's not— either way, it wasn't a really good thing. And it's the reason we have so many suff— we have so much suffering in this world.

Interesting. Look at this. You can't come to the church, and you've got to say, "I believe the creed," before you got baptized. You can't come into the church if— and look, I believe in God, the Father Almighty, made the physical world. Well, yes, that's what it says here. And you either have to say, "I really—" This is— this is a call for a massive change in how you think. Mm-hmm. And that's what this is partly what this is about. And, uh, we're gonna talk about, uh, catechesis, and I'll say more about it then. Mm-hmm. But, um, so this was used as a kind of, um, an outline for what was taught to the new, uh, believers.

It's— you know, it's really hard to change your way of thinking from thinking, you know, "I suffer in this world physically. The physical world must be bad." It's hard to get from that to this. Mm-hmm. Now, Jews were already there. But when you start getting your pagan believers coming in, it takes something to help them see that, you know, this is a fallen world, yes, but it's a good world that fell, and it's gonna be, uh, redeemed in the end. Mm-hmm. So one of the big things was this is to, um, this was used for their catechesis or their, um, instruction class. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, like I said, that— that would have been the local creeds.

Uh, but this was— this was to say to the whole church, "This is— this is what we believe. You can keep your local creed because they all were like this. You keep your local creed. You can use that for your instruction class. But this is going to be what the bishop is gonna say to the other bishops who consecrate him. This is what we all believe." Mm-hmm. So before this interview, I was doing some reading on just, like, the— the history leading up to the Nicene Creed. Uh, this is an interesting book. I— I haven't finished it, but he made a point in here, and I'd like to see if you can engage with that.

That might— that might fit with this. This is a little scary since I haven't seen what it is before, but go ahead. Yeah. So I was— I was looking through this last night and stuff, but, um, he— he said one of the— one of the— the point with all of this is, uh, he's saying the contemplation of the person and work of Christ is the unchanging heart of Christian theology. Like, that's what the early church was wrestling with then. Um, it's that idea of, um, where Jesus says, "Who do you say that I am?" Mm-hmm. Um, he said, "This question posed by Jesus Christ is the one that Christian theology seeks to answer." So he's— he's going through in the book and saying, "That's what these early church writers were wrestling with, saying, you know, how do you articulate that, though?"

Like, it's— it's there in the Gospels. Like, how do you get your— your head around it? And his point is it's leading up to— of course, he's writing about the Nicene Creed specifically, but it's leading up to them coming together and saying, "This is the best language we can come up with to explain this mystery." Am I getting it close? Yes. Yes. This is the best human language that we can come up with. I sometimes tell my students, when I die and open my eyes on the other side, I'm gonna say, "Oh, that's what it meant." Not that it's— not that it's different, but I will understand better what this was getting at. Yeah. But he is exactly right.

The— the early church, I— I made a point that the pagans thought differently than the Jews or the— or what Christians are supposed to think. The world was made by God from nothing, and it's good, and it's very good. That was a hard thing for a pagan to swallow. Mm-hmm. Um, the first main challenge to the church was Gnosticism. And Gnostics were people who loved the Gospel message, but they didn't— weren't willing to change their worldview, their mindset. And so they— they brought together their pagan mindset that the— the physical world was bad. The only thing that's good is the Spirit that's in me. And salvation is the, um, release of my spirit from my body.

This says that we, we look for the resurrection of the dead. Okay? Do you hear what you— okay. And so the very first struggle for the church was anti-Gnosticism. It was Gnosticism. And the church clearly said no. And the church father that I think I love the most is Irenaeus, and he slaughtered, uh, that metaphorically. Yeah. He— he slaughtered them. And— and he probably saved the church. If the church had become Gnostic, we would be looking forward to getting out of this physical body, and that's our resurrection. It's a spiritual thing. We look at all of life differently. Christians ought to appreciate the physical because it's good. God made it. He gave us the responsibility to take care of it.

A Gnostic would have seen this totally differently. So there— there were Christians who were— who were Gnostic, and— and the church, um, actively worked against that. That's— that's— that's the first thing. When this creed, uh, or before this creed, uh, came to the fore, there was another group of people who didn't have their mindset completely changed. These are the Ari— we could end up calling them the Arians. Uh, the man who, uh, led them, uh, or, yeah, who led them at first was Arius.

And the question is, who is this Jesus? As— as, um, who do you say? This is— this is Bear, right? Yes. John Bear. This is John Bear. Yeah. Who— I think he's Eastern Orthodox or— Yes, he is. Yeah. Eastern Orthodox. Yes. Um, uh, uh, a professor. And then the book is, uh, The Weight in Nicene. Yes. He is exactly right. The— the main point is, who is this Jesus? Because how are we saved? It's because of Jesus. So the first part, believing in the Father, is a rather small part. The part about the Holy Spirit is rather small too, but both of them are important. Okay? But the really big part, the— the part of the Nicene Creed that's— that's about Jesus is more than twice as big, I'd say, as the part on the— a Father and the Son.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's because for us men and our salvation, he came down from heaven and became a human. Mm-hmm. Okay. What did he do? Who was he? What did he do? And, um, why is that important? Mm-hmm. The Arians, that they— they weren't Gnostic, but they still had some of this— they had some of the Greek philosophical way of thinking that was negative towards Christianity, namely the physical is something that God the Father doesn't want to have anything to do with. So God the Father alone is truly fully God. And he made but one thing, the Word, the Logos, Jesus. Uh, before he's called Jesus, but he made one thing. And that— that way, now that thing is spiritual.

The Logos is spiritual. Mm-hmm. So the Father made a spiritual thing, and that spiritual thing made everything else. It's a separating— This is Arianism. This is Arianism. And wait, this is— you're describing something from a very long time ago, but what you just described sounds like a Jehovah's Witness or something. They are. They're the modern Arians. Yeah. Now, now how about that? I would— okay. You know, the— the— the original Arians would have, um, their worship service would have looked just like the Orthodox and Catholic worship service. They just would have said, "Jesus isn't God. He was a created being." He's not really God. He is— he is a lower God. He's a created— he is the only thing that God the Father created because it doesn't— it doesn't, um, it doesn't, uh, pollute God the Father to make a spiritual thing.

So some of— well, really, the— the— this creed is coming down very strong and saying that is not correct. Absolutely. That is absolutely not correct. Now, there were— see, when— when an issue hasn't been discussed, okay, the word Trinity came up somewhere in the— at least in the second century. Mm-hmm. But apparently it wasn't discussed a whole lot at first. Mm-hmm. But eventually people are gonna say, "What does this mean?" And so Arius— Arius had to— he— her— his bishop had a— uh, either had a sermon or a teaching that, uh, bothered Arius because Arius thought that, um, this bishop, his name was Alexander, was, uh, teaching that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all just different names for the one God.

Not— not that— not that there's a reality behind these three. And that— and the church was already against that. The church was already clearly against that. There had been a— a conference or a synod or a council that said, "No, we don't believe this." So that was uniformly understood that somehow there's a reality in the Trinity, that there— God is one, and yet somehow there's a threeness. And for Arius, the only way he could get there was to say that the true God is the Father, et cetera. You know, that he— and then he made the first spiritual being, Jesus. And so he's a— he's a lower God. He's a lesser God. And I don't think Arius said anything about the Spirit, but eventually some said the Spirit is just a force.

And I'll have a little bit to say about that too. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, um, yeah, Arius is the conflict. See, um, the Christian church didn't sit down. The— the leaders of the Christian church didn't sit down and say, "Let's make up theology and let's make up some weird ideas that are hard to believe." No. There's always a conflict, like, first of all, with Gnosticism, then with Arius, that a church father, a bishop, would hear this and he'd say, "That's not what we mean." Now, he didn't know how to necessarily how to explain what we mean. Yeah. And nobody had challenged it over and over and over again. That's what causes, uh, the church to define its theology.

There's a challenge. So the first challenge was the Gnostics, and that was done away with by, um, uh, Irenaeus. And Irenaeus has the rule of faith. And like I said, the rule of faith is built on this Trinitarian idea. So he already had that— when he uses the word too, Trinity. So we already— he already had, um, a Trinitarian concept. But what are some of the details there? Is the Father over— over the Son and the Spirit? Are they equal? Um, things like that. And Arius still, I would argue, still had some of this pagan— and I don't mean that in a bad— maybe I should— Greek philosophical idea that there's one true spiritual God and the rest of this— the physical world is nasty and messy and God doesn't want anything to do with that.

And so the one true God made one spiritual thing who made everything else. That kind of works out nicely, you know, if that's true. It's easy to understand. And it's easy— yeah. Yes. Now, there is something I don't— I— I want to say this now. I don't know if we— if we might get into it later, but, um, when you look at the struggle, so the— the, um, Nicene Council came up with this creed, and about, um, 60 years later, they— they reinforced this creed. They didn't— they changed it only by strengthening it a little bit. And then they said, "This is the creed for the church." That's in 381. In between, there was a big struggle with, um, various church leaders and— and emperors, some accepting the Nicene understanding and some accepting either the Arian or a semi-Arian understanding.

So there was this big struggle, but that struggle made even the Orthodox, uh, Nicene Christians think about how can we explain this. So struggle is actually— it's actually— well, if we can avoid it, that— that's okay, I guess. But struggle has always made the church, I think, more deeply about what we're talking about. Okay? So, um, this was— oh, and I was gonna say some of the emperors, um, I think they don't say this, but I think they liked the Arian position because they already saw themselves as the head of the Christian church. They saw themselves as, uh, appointed by God and therefore leading this now Christianized country, the Roman Empire. And, you know, if Jesus is actually a created being like they are, I think that changes how they— how they had to respond to him.

If he's not fully God, that's a good point. And you know what? When he's fully God, you need to submit. Mm-hmm. None of them ever explain why they prefer. I think it's easier for them. But I also think there was a— we— I as emperor am chosen by God. And I think it puts them either on the same level or maybe not the same, but a closer level to Jesus because he also is a created by the Father. That's a guess on my point, on my part. But, um, but once you accept the Nicene concept, it— it may— you better— you better be submitted to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Mm-hmm. You're raising an excellent point that— that the wrestling the early church had to do to essentially figure out how to articulate some things that are really hard to grasp.

Yes. Now we look back and we just like, "Oh, yeah, you know, the Trinity, it's this." You know, we— we take— take for granted, really, a lot of the language without really realizing how much wrestling had to happen to be able to articulate it in that way.

Baptists tend to be consciously anti-creedal. Yeah. We can be that too. Our forefathers weren't. We should recognize that there— that this understanding of God as Trinity and Jesus as fully God and fully man is not obvious. You know, it's not just there in the scriptures. There are, um, ways you could look at the New Testament and go one way or the other. The church fathers who came up with the Nicene Creed and— and wrestled, they would point back to the, um, parigma or the rule of faith and the scriptures, and they would say, um, "This is how it was meant to be understood," not this way that Arius thought, which was much closer to Greek philosophy.

Greek philosophy was used by both sides, but this was not filtered through scripture. It— it actually filtered the scriptures through the Greek philosophy that— that, uh, Jesus is actually a created being. Mm-hmm. I mentioned that the early Anabaptists, they were Trinitarian. Yeah. And I have in front of me, um, the— I think it's the second song. Let me look. This print is smaller.

Um, this is from the Auspunt. Oh, it's— it's in the Auspunt. It's, uh, number 20, I th— uh, if I understand this right. But it's really interesting. They have— they have sort of re— restructured the creed. So they're— they're accepting— this is from the Apostles Creed. They're accepting the creed. They're accepting God as Father, Son, and Spirit.

What is fascinating is the part on the— on God the Father has been greatly expanded, and it focuses on how he has made a good— or good world and how, um, he bears our pain. You know, remember, these people were being slaughtered and how, uh, he cares for us and does good things for us. So this part of— of the song is at— as long as the part on Jesus and the Holy Spirit, meaning that they really may emphasize that— that, um, you need to really understand this: that God the Father treats us like our Father. He loves us. He's— he's given us a beautiful world. Yes, it's fallen, but it's a beautiful world where, where we can, um, where we're supposed to take care of it and— and make the best of it, not reject it because it's physical.

But anyway, um, so this is in the Auspunt. The old order Amish still sing this. So our forefathers in the Reformation were not anti-creedal, and we shouldn't be either. The creeds and, um, the history of the early church wrestled through issues that we simply accept. But you know what? We can be infected by the same ideas that— that infected some early Christians and had to be dealt with, and— and there had to be a clear articulation. And I think it— there's no reason to reinvent the wheel every 100 years. So it's really good for us. I— I know I'm— I— I'm a teacher of— of history, but it's good for us to know what the struggles were and how they were dealt with and the thing like the creed that the early church came up with to— to specify, to answer, to articulate clearly what— what is the truth.

Uh, so another— another piece I think that fits nicely that— that, um, John Barr puts in this, uh, book, um, is like what we find in the Fathers Studied Here, and he's talking about the church fathers that he analyzes in this book, um, is a reflection on and within the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not the transformation of a primitive gospel into Greek metaphysics, the development of something not there from the beginning, but it is rather the deepening understanding of what is given once and for all. Amen. That's his point with, like, in the buildup to the Nicene Creed. It's like they're not making something new. They're deepening what was already there at the very beginning.

Exactly. And it's, uh, those that do not like things like the creed but are historians, church historians, they will— they will say that this was the beginning of the Hellenization of Christianity or the Greekization. Hellen— Hellen— the Greeks called themselves the Hellenes. So Hellenization is making something Greek. Mm-hmm. And so, um, some of the liberal theologians would say that from Constantine on, and maybe even before, uh, some people were shaping the gospel message into a message that fit Greek philosophy. And this is not true. Now, they did use, they learned from Greek philosophy. Greek philosophy is clear thinking. It's— it's learning how to think and argue well. And now they had some problems. They didn't have a scripture.

They didn't have revelation. So when they looked at the world, they thought that either the physical was eternal, with some Greeks were, uh, did believe in one God, and either the eternal God did not make this or there was a lesser God who made the physical by accident. Okay. The— the Christians learned from Greek philosophy how to think and argue well, but they also said, "No. God created ex nihilo," which means from nothing. His word. He simply said, and it was.

Um, and so they— they learned from the Greeks how to think and how to argue, but they did not accept that mindset that Arius did, that mindset that the physical is bad. So, um, he is exactly right. They're— they're deepening using the best things they— the best tools they had to articulate well, which was Greek philosophy. Um, they— they used that. Uh, but you know what? Let's just think about today. What it— if— if I ask you, what is the big problem the church— it's coming from liberal Christians. It's coming from non-believers. What's the big issue the church faces today?

Human nature. Is there a human nature? Right. Yeah. Some people say there's no human nature, so it doesn't matter if you want to transition from male to female or back and forth, whatever. Uh, or if there is a human nature that we can just make it whatever we want, and that's transhumanism. The church has always believed there's human nature and in some— to some degree has defined it a bit. And actually, what it says about Jesus is that this is the one true fully human person ever existing. Okay. So whatever he is says something about human nature.

But right now we're— that the big question that's being pushed against Christians is, is there a human nature? And what is it? No, I don't think there is one, but if you think there is, what is it? We have to learn by looking back, and this— the— the— the wrestling for the Nicene Creed is really helpful here. We have to wrestle with how to answer them, and we have to do it in words they can understand. So the early church fathers used the best kind of reasoning that was around, and it's still— this— this approach to reason is very— is still what leads us, um, Westerners, to think logically. Mm-hmm. So they used what they had so that they could actually address their audience, whether they were Arian Christians who were already thinking too much like a Greek pagan, or if they were pagans, uh, and even Christians.

Okay. So what do— what do we mean when we say, uh, I believe in a Trinity? We need to today wrestle with what does it mean to be a human and how can— how can we express that in clear language? We should never give this up. We should always use good logical language, uh, which— which at some point is going to say some of this is revealed to us and we just have to accept that. But then once we take a revealed thing, how can we logically present it so that they can understand it? We have to use their language to some degree. Do you hear what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. So, um, it was not the Hellenization of Christianity.

It was good, solid Bible-believing Christians, if you want to use that term, saying, how can we, um, address what Arius is saying? How can we address our pagan friends? And how can we make this so clear, uh, as clear as possible to our own people? And one of the things they used was Greek thinking.

Uh, but they rejected the parts that were not biblical. Mm-hmm. So, um, there's a terribly important lesson to learn here, and, um, and it is that we need to be as clear as possible. Um, we— a lot of postmodern people don't particularly like defining things like human nature. Well, I'm sorry, but that is one of the glories of, first of all, Greek philosophy. They're the guys that start it. Let's define so we know what we're talking about. Yeah. So instead of you using— let's just think Greek philosophy instead of you talking about, um, forms. Okay. We won't get into— and I'm talking about forms, but we're thinking two different things. We're trying to be philosophical.

Well, let's first of all define what we mean, and then we can— then we can decide, well, if you mean that, I disagree with you. Okay. That— so we need, um, clarity of thought, and we also need to hear what the real issues are from the non-believers or some Christians who, you know, the— a lot of Christians are— their hearts hurt for their friends who are having struggles, okay, about what it means to be human.

Um, well, let's— let's address them in a way that feels their pain, but also tries to help them see clearly that the direction they're going is not going to alleviate their pain. It's going to make it worse in the end. Mm-hmm. And so that's what the early church was doing when it came up with various creeds, and especially with this creed. And we need to learn from them. And— and if we don't address, I don't know how to do this because we can't have an ecumenical council today. We can't get all the Christians together. It's not going to— I don't— I don't— at least I don't know how you do it. But all of us need to think about how do we address as clearly as possible and as biblically as possible what it means to be a human.

Part of it's here. You see, the church for 2000 years never had to think about it. It— it brought things up like the creed itself, talking about Jesus as human, but it was never, uh, directly attacked. Now it is. Mm-hmm. We've got some— we've got some good, uh, resources from various things the church has said throughout history, but we've got to work hard to know how to talk to today's people. When we look at the Nicene Creed, we're at 1700 years, basically. Exactly. Since when it was written. Yep. Right. So that's a long time ago. Yep. So can you explain why does it still matter to us today? That's the first one. Yep. But also, would you wish that our— our people, when I say our people, I mean the Mennonites, the Amish, the Anabaptists, whatever, you know, um, would be more familiar with the— with the creed?

Um, and is there ways we could incorporate perhaps the creed into— into our lives more? Yeah. Just talk to me about that. Well, you know, the Amish still sing that song. That's a— that's a— that's a metrical form of the— of the Apostles Creed. And with a little bit of expansion in— and the expansion is beautiful because it says, "We experience this God in this world." I love it. But, um, so they— whether they consciously think about it when they're singing it, I don't know, but they've already got a foot going in the right direction. So I like that. We need to recognize that we don't have to reinvent the wheel and that there— we should learn how— we should learn the creed, I think.

Whether you want to learn the Apostles Creed or this, uh, the Nicene Creed, I think that it's a good thing for us to do. Mm-hmm. Because I'll tell you something, it shapes how you think without you realizing it.

Mm-hmm. Soon after I became beachy, I would have been— I was 20 when I, uh, was baptized. And probably when I was 21 or 22, um, a Jehovah's Witness came to the family that I was living with. He was related to them somehow, and he was trying to draw them and me into being a Jehovah's Witness. And he actually did win one person, um, to Jehovah's Witness, uh, faith.

But anyway, when he came over one time and, and, uh, and was talking to us, he said something about the resurrection, and I knew the creed by heart. Mm-hmm. And— and I told him, "I don't know why. I can't explain why you're wrong, but I know you are." And the reason I knew it was the church very early on had said, "These are the key things." And somehow what he was saying about the resurrection did not match this. And— and then— then I could go and do some research, and then I saw why we as a church, whether you're Catholic or whether you're Amish and singing that song, why we say we believe in the resurrection of the dead.

Mm-hmm. And so it— it protected me without my knowing all the reasons for this, but then I could go dig. Mm-hmm. So this, uh, this can be something that it is something if we would say it every Sunday, it would shape how we think, and— and it would be a protection. At least it would make you stop and say, "I— I— I don't know why, but I can't quite believe what you're bringing up to somebody who's a heretical." So I think that's important. It's also important because it— that I think that God in the early church dealt with some of the absolute bedrock key issues. One of them is, "Is this a good world?" That's the Gnostics.

This one is, "What is the Trinity? And who is this Jesus?" And so I think those are bedrock. And so— and I think God naturally would deal first of all with bedrock issues. And now, in today's world, 2000 years later, we're dealing with something that's very, very, very important and is kind of connected to the bedrock issues because Jesus is truly a man. But, um, it never came up before. But these bedrock issues came up because the pagan world did not accept the physical world. And also it— it— it struggled with, "Who is this Trinity?" And so I believe that, uh, the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed is something God used the church to hammer out very early on.

This is the core of the faith. And then as time went on, other issues came up. But I think this is bedrock. Who is God? What does it mean that he's Trinity? Who is this Jesus? And is he really fully God and fully man? And how does that affect our salvation? Because that is right in the middle of all of the creeds that he— he came as a man to save us. If he— if he wasn't really God, he didn't have the power to save us. If he wasn't really man, man needed to— to do whatever God wanted because man is the one that sinned. None of us can do that. We're all broken and we're sinful.

It took a perfect man to do what God wanted. And, um, so I think this is foundational. And we tend to say, "Yes, we're Trinitarians," but I think we should also recognize where the— the— the wrestling happened, why it happened, and how it came up with things like this. And that is going to help us. You know, you— you asked, is, um, was Arius, uh, what we would call a JW today? Well, the ideas are the same. And so if we actually know what Arius said, and if we know how and why the church fathers disagreed with him, it would give us a head start in talking to a JW. Mm-hmm. Okay. And— and if we— if we understand how the church opposed Gnosticism, it would help us oppose Gnosticism in our own circles.

We actually have semi-Gnostic thinking among us, which is unfortunate that we— we downgrade the physical, but people out— out in the world do too. And so, um, if we understood what Irenaeus did and how and the how and the why, it would give us, um, a— a— a head start in talking to either people in our own setting or outside our setting, why we think the whole world is— this is a good earth that God has made, and he's going to redeem it. I— I've already had students take, um, one of my, uh, either church history classes or theology classes, and after a week or two or so, you know, you hear about Gnosticism, um, somebody raises his hand and says with his eyes big, "I think I was a Gnostic."

And I'm kind of glad that, uh, that they— they got to hear what Gnosticism believes. They weren't real Gnostics, but there was— there's a tinge of it. And they started to see, "I was actually looking at the physical in a negative way." And, uh, yes, we're fallen, but it— it's something that God is going to redeem. So that, I would say, would show some of the importance of— of the creed. Now, one more thing, uh, and that is, Mm-hmm, the original, um, form of the Nicene Creed is almost what I read with a little bit of a difference. Um, there was a struggle between the original Nicene Creed and the one that we use today, uh, about 60 years' worth of struggle.

And during that time, they, uh, the church fathers learned what some of the questions are going to be about this and articulated them better. And so— and then the next two councils that the early church had dealt with some more issues, Mm-hmm, that touched on the Nicene Creed. They weren't rejecting the creed, but how do you understand it? Mm-hmm. So, um, the third council was about a, um, church father that seemed to be saying that— that Jesus is a man and that the Spirit was— was with him, but not that they were really united. And that's what a— a prophet is. God's Spirit comes to a prophet, and— and that man yields to that prophet, and he speaks God's word.