The Feminine Cloud of Witnesses — Kristi Mast — Ep. 157

Egalitarianism and complementarianism are two positions that people have tried in the church to understand the positions of men and women. In this episode, we discuss the pros and cons of these positions.

Well, hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm joined today by Christy Mast up in Boston, Massachusetts. Uh, so we're gonna dive into a lot of interesting things today, and, uh, I'll just jump right into this first question here for you, Christy, and, uh, we'll go from there. So, first question is, can you just talk a little about women from the Anabaptist movement, um, who have inspired you, or women just from Christian history in general? I think you'd done a talk on this, um, at one point in the past, and, um, yeah, could you speak into that? For sure, yeah. So, um, I know that I have a lot to learn in this, and the more that I study and the more that I learn, the more inspired I am by, um, women specifically in the Anabaptist tradition and in the early church who were just amazing examples of the faith and of, um, evangelism and service.

Um, I wanted to just, I'll give, there's a lot of examples I could give, but I'm gonna pull out at least three here. Um, so two of them are actually from the Martyrs of Mir's, um, and really inspiring stories about women who actually died for their faith, right? Um, and specifically, I see these women as incredible evangelists. So, um, the Württemberg government, um, decided, um, that the Anabaptist women were getting out of control. They said, quote, that the propaganda activity of Anabaptist women through word of mouth and through booklets was so grievous that those mothers who could not be banished because they had small children should be chained at home to prevent their leading so many people astray.

And so clearly these, uh, we don't know a ton of biographical, right, information about these women, but these women were really powerful evangelists, so much so that the Württemberg government decided that, uh, it'd be better for everybody if they were chained at home, um, with their children. Um, so I think that's just really inspiring. And how many, I don't know, very many women today who I, uh, who I could say that about. Um, there's another woman in the Martyrs of Mir who was arrested for evangelism, um, and was put on trial, and somebody, she was, as she was being led away to her death, somebody was pleading with her, and she, he's, they said, dear mother, can you not think what you please and keep it to yourself?

Then you won't die. Um, and she replies, dear sister, I'm commanded to speak and I'm constrained to do so, hence I cannot remain silent about it. What an amazing testimony. I'm not sure that, um, that, uh, I would be able to say that on the way to, to the fire, right, to be burned. Um, and just, I think a final example is probably more familiar to all of us, um, Margareta Sattler, actually Michael Sattler's wife. So Stuart Murray in his book, um, Biblical Interpretation in the Anabaptist Tradition, talks a lot about how the early Anabaptists were relatively egalitarian in their church relationships and in the way that they functioned. Um, and I think Margareta Sattler is a really good example of that.

Her and her husband, Michael, traveled together, um, everywhere. She was always by his side, and even, um, they were arrested together and put on trial together. Um, and he was burned at the stake, but the wife of one of the judges there actually gave Margareta the option to, um, to not go to her death and to, you know, save her life and her freedom. Um, but she refused that, choosing to, uh, suffer the same fate as her husband. And so a couple days later, she experienced what was often called her third baptism, which was drowning in the, in the river there. Um, and so I think these three women are just, are specifically Anabaptist women examples, um, who were very bold and courageous in their, um, conviction that they too must be out preaching the, preaching the gospel and laboring in the work of the church right alongside, um, men or even like on their own in their cities and towns.

Wow, yeah, that's, that's powerful. So maybe just to go a little deeper yet in, into that, um, maybe tell us about women specifically that, that have helped you on your journey of spiritual maturity or, or examples you could show of, um, of that and, and what that looks like and, uh, and so forth. So there's so many women, uh, that I could talk about that have been hugely impactful, um, in my spiritual journey in my life and both older women that I look up to and admire, but also, um, my peers who have just really encouraged me and, uh, you know, whether that's a word of correction or exhortation at the right time or just support and encouragement.

But immediately I think of, um, one of my mentors and dear friends, Janelle Glick, um, and she is a, um, she's actually completed her master's in counseling and, um, has really invested a lot of time in learning how to help people and serve people. And she's just done a fabulous job of providing space for me to be authentic and vulnerable and to ask my questions and then also supporting me in, um, in my spiritual growth and just providing a space. I think, I think that's one of the most important things we can do, right, for each other is providing safe spaces to be real and authentic. Um, two other examples, and these are actually groups of women.

Um, my mom and her sisters actually have been hugely influential as well in my, um, spiritual life, specifically my mom. Um, but my aunts as well, there's six sisters and all of them are, um, intelligent and spunky and not afraid to, uh, share their thoughts with, with people who will listen. And so just sitting around at family reunions and hearing them really deeply engage with the world, whether that's church and theology or current events or whatever it is, there's always lively discussion. And I just think that they modeled really well for me what it looks like to, um, to be fully engaged with the world around them, um, or around you and to really do a good job at, um, at bringing their whole self to a conversation.

And then the third, third example of also a group of women is, um, a number of women in my church in Kansas, um, that have just been super inspiring to me. So there's actually a group of sisters who many of them, actually all of them, um, remain single until one of them just recently got married, um, in her sixties. But every single one of them did an amazing job of taking the gifts and the talents that they've been given and using them to, um, serve the kingdom. So they served, like one of them served as a midwife in Paraguay, one of them, um, worked in Poland for years and years in a university there, um, in a clinic in El Salvador, teaching English in China.

Like they were all over, uh, the globe. Um, and I think there's two things that's really remarkable and that I really have been impacted by. Um, number one, that they took a lot of leadership and initiative while still being very much under the authority and, um, while still very of the local church and also being very submitted to local church. Um, but they didn't, they weren't passive in any sense of the word, um, but they were very actively pursuing the things that God had given them to do, um, even though that meant, you know, blazing trails and stepping out into places that, uh, weren't particularly safe or easy. Um, and I think my church, um, in Kansas has done a fabulous job of supporting them in that and empowering them to be able to actually do some of those things.

So those are just a couple examples. I could talk for a long time, like I said, about women who have impacted me and inspired me. Yeah, wow, that's, that's really interesting. And it's, it's, um, a bit of a, a segue actually into the next point that I wanted to hit here. And that's, um, this concept of Bible study or growth together in community, like, like learning from each other. Um, so yeah, that, that is the next question I had, um, I have, you've talked about that before, um, Bible study and community, um, congregational, hermeneutic, uh, talk about the strengths and weaknesses of this. So in your last answer, that you were talking a lot about, um, the impact of, of people from your area, your church, the, the local, uh, community.

Um, yeah, let's, let's go into that a bit. Strengths and weaknesses of, of Bible study in, in community. Probably one of the greatest dangers in the American church is this kind of like cowboy Christianity where you have this kind of rugged, uh, independent, um, believer who's out on their own and they're just me and Jesus kind of. And, um, there's this, so there's the slogan from the Reformation, right, that is Sola Scriptora, which means only scripture, like only scripture will be our rule and our guide. Um, but this kind of cowboy Christian maybe, uh, embodies more Sola Scriptora where it's just me and Jesus and it's, um, I am kind of the final judge over the Bible almost of what's right and what's wrong.

And, and I think even we've seen this a lot in church splits or whatever it is of, um, you know, a few people maybe believing that they have the truth and they have the key and kind of getting off on their own. Um, and so I think that's one of the huge, huge things about studying scripture in community is that you're being formed not only by the word, but you're also being formed by each other. And I think it's a huge safeguard against that kind of independent, um, Christianity that believes that you can be a healthy Christian out on your own, um, just with you and Jesus.

Not like there aren't extenuating circumstances where that happens and praise the Lord, like the Holy Spirit provides. But, um, I think when we study together in community, um, like I said, we're not only drawing on scripture, but the Holy Spirit is working through our brothers and sisters. And, um, together we are able to see and understand much more clearly than we would be able to on our own. Um, I've experienced this again and again, right, where I read through a passage and I'm like, oh yeah, I think I kind of get what's going on here. Um, but then I study it in a group of people and, um, they pull out so many things that I completely missed, um, or asked just really insightful questions that I didn't think about.

Um, so those are some of the pros. Um, I think also even in addition to that, it also, I think we're, we're able to get a lot more excited about scripture when we're doing it together. Um, just because we're, we're social creatures and that's what we're oriented towards. And so whenever we're doing something together, it makes it more fun and more interesting and just more rewarding in general. Um, but yeah, maybe some of the cons would be like groupthink. And if, if you have a group of people, like when you get kind of down the wrong road, yeah, then you're all on the same page together and it can be hard to, uh, divert from that path.

Um, but I definitely think that this, a congregational hermeneutic thinking of, um, always coming to scripture together is, is a really powerful way that, um, that we can be formed by scripture and, um, by the Holy Spirit working through the church and through the body. Well, we actually talked about this a little before we started recording, but going back to, um, the egalitarian complementary, um, viewpoints and church and community and, and learning together, all, all of these things, this, this whole thing we're talking about here. Um, I'm not sure if you would want to maybe get into that just a little and, and outline those. And then you had mentioned, um, earlier, and this would be the one I'd really be interested in, in, in hearing about, but you know, is there another option, a third option that, um, can work well as we're talking about in a church community, um, uh, for all to take part in and learn scripture together and, and whatever else.

Um, yeah, I'd love to hear you, uh, unpack that a little if, if you're able. I am by no means any kind of expert on complementarianism versus egalitarianism, but, um, just really basic, um, egalitarianism believes that men and women are completely equal both in, um, both intrinsically, like their value, but also in, um, function and, um, the things that they do in the church. So egalitarians would be very comfortable with women in leadership at all levels, um, as teaching pastors and, um, yeah, everything in between.

Um, whereas complementarianism would, um, see of course like equality between, between men and women in their intrinsic value and nature, but they would see, um, a difference in function and roles within the church. So often these roles can be defined in terms of you have men as the initiator and then women as the responder, or you have, um, men as a leader and then women are supporting that. Um, and I think both of them, as they've been kind of defined and fleshed out, have some pros and cons, right? Egalitarians, um, are very good at actively encouraging women to take part in the church and to take an initiative and leadership within the church, which I think is a good thing.

And they really emphasize being co-laborers together in the gospel and submitting to each other. Um, but then of course they, in my mind, they do some pretty, um, intense gymnastics to, um, to try to deal with some of the really hard teachings about, about women and men and, um, that we have in the scripture. Um, and there's people that I respect in this position, but I don't find their arguments, um, particularly compelling.

Um, but then with complementarians, I think it's really good that they're, they are really trying to be very faithful to scripture and, um, and be obedient to the word, um, and try to like flesh that out, what that relationship looks like, um, in a really faithful way and in a way that both genders can thrive. But I think the cons are that, um, often the way that it's fleshed out, uh, people, so like maybe there's a line somewhere like up here, uh, but then they draw the line like so much further back to make sure that they're not crossing that. And so then women can actually be handicapped sometimes in the church and aren't able to bring their full self.

Um, or sometimes women can be seen primarily as food and, uh, childcare providers, which are wonderful things and are holy, like spirit-filled activities. But, um, I don't think that's the extent of what women are called to do in the church. Um, so basically I've, I've just felt for a while, and I think a number of people have, have seen this, that, um, is it possible that there's a third way in between these two, um, at least how these two positions are lived out? And I think when we look at the New Testament, we see people like Phoebe, um, and Tryphena and Tryphosa and Junia in, uh, Romans 15, who Paul, you know, sends his greetings to as fellow, fellow workers in the gospel.

We see, um, people like Priscilla, who along with her husband Aquila, um, you know, are correcting Apollos' teaching, um, because he's, he's teaching false doctrine. Um, or we see people like Yodia and Syntyche, other women that meant that, um, Paul commends as his fellow laborers and Philip's daughters who are prophesying. I mean, like even the head covering passage, right? It's First Corinthians 11. It's assuming that women are going to be prophesying. So what does that actually look like? How are we, are we actually providing space for that in, in our churches? So I don't feel like I have a great, um, answer to this, but just the more that I've read the New Testament and the more that I've, um, been shaped by that vision, I, I wonder if we aren't missing something, um, and if there's a lot more space for women to take certain kinds of leadership and initiative in the church, um, and that the whole church would be like built up and empowered by that.

Um, of course, while still being very careful that we're not, um, explaining away the words of scripture. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, it's a lot to think about, you know, um, uh, hope, hopefully this gets people to engage with these things and, and process through, uh, genuinely what, what do we see in scripture? Like this is some, just some of the examples you mentioned were, you know, things I had, I had never, you know, you're reading the New Testament, you just kind of miss over, you, you see all these names and then you don't really think about it, but then you go back and you're like, wow, you know, Paul is, is commending some of these ladies that have done some really powerful things in spreading the gospel.

Um, anyway, and that was some stuff I just hadn't even really noticed until fairly recently. And it's been, it's been very interesting to study into that and see, hey, there, there's, there's a lot, there's a, there's a lot here to, to learn from, you know, um, I'm not sure where all that goes. I don't feel like I know enough about it to really say this is what it all means, you know, but it's things to think about. And, um, yeah, do you think this is something you're going to be studying more into and, um, hopefully engaging with more in the future? Definitely, definitely. It's something that has been on, um, my heart and mind for a long time.

And, um, I just continue to want to learn more. And I think, like you said, the goal is to just keep pushing us back to the New Testament. What is the New Testament vision for life in the church? And sometimes it's easy to get kind of these systems built out that are really, really helpful. Um, but to always be like going back to scripture and comparing those, those systems to scripture. So yeah, it's definitely something I feel like I need to do a lot more work on myself before I really understand, but it's been a lingering question, um, for me over the last, last few years. Yeah, it sounds like, sounds like a worthwhile thing to, to dig into and, and, um, you know, maybe, maybe in the future when you've found some more things, we can do a follow-up on it. 'Cause I, I feel these, these are important things to have conversations about, uh, for sure.

And maybe go a little deeper with that. Um, okay. So for, for my last question here, as we kind of bring all of these things together, um, we're talking about people from the past that have inspired you and, and people present today and then the church community and studying scripture together. Just to summarize it all, what is one thing you could leave with, um, maybe ladies that are watching this, uh, video or listening to this podcast, what's some encouragement you could leave, uh, for them? I think really the core of what I want us all, um, to really embrace is our identity as a disciple first. Um, and then everything else wraps around that. So our identity as a man or a woman, as mothers, as sisters, as, um, employees or as teachers or students, like all of it needs to be grounded in our identity as a disciple.

And so, um, I just encourage women who are listening to this to read their, as they read the word, especially, um, what is Jesus asking? What's the Holy Spirit asking of his disciples? Um, and to think about their role in the world, um, first as that, um, rather than as first as a woman or first as, um, all these other really beautiful and important roles that are stacked up on top of that. Yeah. Wow, that's, that's powerful. And I feel like that's a, that's a great summarizing of, of what we've been trying to, uh, to cover today. Um, thank you so much for coming on, Christie, and sharing this with us. And, uh, yeah, hopefully this has been helpful to you, the listener, and we appreciate you, you listening and would love to hear your feedback.

So if you have questions or comments for Christie, feel free to leave those down in the comments below or send us an email. We would love to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening and we will catch you in the next episode. Thank you for joining us for this episode, and thanks to our donors and partners for making this possible. For more episodes, please subscribe or visit our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. You can also leave a comment or review to help more people find our content.