I Was Born Hindu in India’s Lowest Caste. The Gospel Brings Persecution. - Markus Meena

So that moment I knelt down and prayed for to give me faith and courage. And I told God, "Lord, either You take my life or use me for Your glory." And that moment I was I was shaking, and God really filled with filled with me anointing and giving me more strength. So as Bible tells us, "When you are weak, I'm strong in you."

Marcus, welcome to the podcast. So we want to get your story today, and I'd say the best way to do that is just start at the beginning. Where were you born? Were you born into a Christian home? Um, tell me about your upbringing. Uh, I'm born in Rajasthan, in India. And I'm born in a Hindu family, and my parents were idol worshippers.

And, uh, that's how my life my journey started. Hmm. Rajasthan, is that, um, that's in the north, right? Or on the west part of India? Yes. It's a north part of west. So they weren't Christian then. Like, what was what was life like? Our life was miserable, uh, horrible without God, without no true God.

And, uh, we and my parents were idol worshippers. With, uh, uh, my family were going through a, like, evil spirit and, uh, uh, going through, uh, struggle, sickness. And it was like, uh, like a nightmare. Uh, but we found a true God, and that's how, uh, our life God has saved our life. Mm-hmm.

So tell me about growing up. So, like, before we did this this interview, actually, I had lunched together because I just wanted to get to know you a little better. And you were telling me some things about, um, you end up in an orphanage, um, you know, having to be, uh, adopted, I think. And, you know, tell me about that part of your story. Like, why did why did that end up happening to you?

Because of, uh, like, where I'm born, uh, we're born in a a very poor family. And because of lack of education and lack of, uh, financial problems and lack of, uh, uh, lifestyle in the village, uh, my parents cannot afford the money, uh, to give me a good life, food. And, uh, so my parents decided to send me to an orphanage in that time.

That must have been hard. How old were you when that happened? Uh, when I was in the orphanage, I was, uh, three years old, and I'm the youngest boy kids in the orphanage. Yep. Oh boy. Um, how big of an orphanage was it? Uh, it was a really big orphanage. Um, there were, like, 1,300 children. And you're the youngest out of 1,300? Yes.

Oh my. Okay. What was that experience like? Uh, the experience was challenging. As, uh, uh, as I was three years old, uh, I missed my family, my mom and my dad. I missed I needed their love. In that in that age, every child needs the love of parents.

Uh, but I missed that. And, uh, it was challenging. Uh, in one room, we were 46 children staying together. In one room? Yeah. So it was crowded? Yeah, it's crowded. And, uh, yeah, it was a tough time, uh, in that situation.

Mm-hmm. But you're describing how initially you would have come from a Hindu environment. So where does Christianity come into your story? Like, how do you first hear of Christianity, and what did you think of it when you first heard about it? This would have been very different, I'm assuming, from, you know, what other people believed, where you would have grown up. Talk to me about that.

One time, a pastor came to visit a village, hometown. And, uh, the pastor, he brought the Gospel to our village. And through that, uh, because of, uh, my parents were going through sickness, uh, and, uh, with an evil spirit, and they were not sure what's going on because their sacrifice, uh, they went to other gods that they may heal, but, uh, they sacrificed a lot of stuff but never got healing in their life. But the pastor visited our place, and he prayed, and he shared the Gospel. And, uh, we got relief from every sickness. We got every the bondage was broken in the name of Jesus. So that's how my parents got saved. Hmm. So then when do you go to the orphanage, then?

Is this they sent you to the orphanage because they were so poor, and that was the only option for them? Tell me about that. In tribal, people live day to day. Hmm. They don't think about, uh, what I will eat next week or two weeks.

They they go to the city and work, and they get paid. And that's how they live every day. So the tribal people's life is not easy because they are low-cost, uh, less educated. Uh, they came from a very poor background. So as my family were poor, so they cannot afford my education, my, uh, food, and, uh, yeah, a good life. Hmm. And, uh, but they loved me, and, uh, they cared about me. So they decided to send me to a Christian orphanage where I get a better study, a better future, and hope. Hmm. And that's where you went when you were three years old. Yes. When you were telling us about earlier, right? And there's 1,300 children, and you're the youngest.

Like, okay, so what was your experience in the orphanage like? Like, how long did you live there in the orphanage? Like, all my total life, uh, I lived there, like, till my high school. Hmm. And, uh, but the challenging was, uh, like, we had a, um, like, in host in the orphanage, uh, there were many people children, and it's hard to make food for them. And, uh, sometimes, uh, what we used to do, uh, whenever the plate comes, and we pour out the water, and we see that any cockroach or any ants are floating or not.

So we remove that, and we have to eat because we are hungry. Oh my. Yeah. Wow. That's challenging. And you and so basically, from age three up through high school, you said you were there. Now, there was a school there, though, so you could get education? Yes. And through the orphanage? So why I said, uh, till my college? Uh, so I moved to a different orphanage.

So I where 1,300 children were there, uh, I was there, like, around six years. Then I moved to a different orphanage. So that's how but I was in the orphanage till my high school. Mm-hmm. So tell me about how you became a Christian.

You you mentioned how Christianity came to your family. Um, but what what is it for your own story? Was this through the teaching that that you heard in the orphanage, or some other way that that you became a Christian?

So my a great experience. And I'm so blessed that I was in the orphanage because even though it's it was struggling and challenging, but it was a good thing that we had a Bible study and prayer in the orphanage.

And, uh, there I found I had an encounter with Jesus. Uh, Jesus transformed me through His love. So when I was praying, I had a question in my life that to the Lord, "Why am I poor? Why, uh, why don't people love me?"

So there was a a lot of questions in my life. But through prayer and the word of God, uh, uh, God really transformed me. And in Psalms, uh, God talks from Psalms 2:7. It says, "Uh, You are my Son, and today I have become Your Father."

And through the Father's love, God has changed me. So God transformed my life through His love. Mm-hmm. And that's how I got salvation. Mm-hmm. What would you say were the experiences at the orphanage that most impacted your life then? Like, teaching or people you would have interacted with, what were the things in that period of your life that, yeah, that really impacted you?

Uh, in the orphanage, uh, I have seen, uh, that, like, we all are different tribes. We all are different cultures, and we are together. And what makes us together is one true God. Hmm. And that impacted me that we are singing a song for one living God.

We are here because of His love. So that challenged me. How, see, God accepts everyone, no matter who they are. And that's how that impact that I've seen God loves can change a person. That that is really something because, I mean, India has so many different tribes and peoples and languages, and you're you're seeing that coming together in one place of unity. That's pretty powerful. I I I don't think I fully, until I was getting to know you more, you know, understood how much variety there is in India or, like, how many different peoples there are, different belief systems, different tribes. And seeing that come together? Yeah.

Wow. Like, did you did you have a Bible? Did you have access to a Bible at that time? You're you're learning to read, etc., you know, in school. How what did what was the Scriptures' influence on your life?

So we had, uh, Sunday school every Sunday because it was a, uh, Christian orphanage. So they used to write Bible verses in a paper, and, uh, they used to give us. And, uh, so that's how we got the Scripture. And, uh, the like, the for God so loved the Lord, that He gave His only so that the Bible verses, uh, I had that. And, uh, so there were there was a Scripture. That's how we learned. And one more thing, like, every Friday, we had a fasting prayer. So no matter who your kids are, you have to do fasting.

Okay. So that's a biblical principle Mm - hmm they were teaching us. So it was challenging for me because I'm a like, I'm kids. I'm I feel hungry. So I put dry bread under my bed. So every Friday comes, I just take it out and put it in my pocket and just eat. Like, so when I'm hungry, I just put it.

Yeah. But it helps. Uh, uh, see, child sacrifice and suffering builds your faith. So, uh, there was a challenge, but I see it as a a learning, a trial in my life. The Bible said um God said, uh, He's always with us in in the middle of the strong. Mm-hmm. So be strong in the strong because He's with me.

Because then when you eventually leave the orphanage, you know, you you start doing a lot of ministry, I understand. You're traveling around India, things like that. Um, and it yeah, if I remember right, you know, you faced some pretty hard things when you did that. Tell me about the life after like, once you leave the orphanage and you start doing ministry and um so forth. Tell me about those experiences.

So there was a time, uh, uh, after my high school, I went to do college and, uh, it was really difficult in that time. Uh, I was more moving. And, uh, um, so, uh, when I was in college, we had a very small room, and it's a dark place with a big mouse running around, and we had to still sleep. Uh, we had food. Like, in India, we make, uh, like, chicken curry. Mm-hmm. So we have one piece of chicken, but we have lots of curry.

Oh. So, like, that's how the struggle was. And, uh, so there was a time, uh, I was cautioning God that, "Lord, You have chosen me for Your glory, and, uh, or You have a purpose for my life. Mm-hmm. But what am I doing here?"

So I had a seven-day fasting without food. I fasted, and I prayed day and night just in His presence. I was asking for, "Give me, uh, the place that I can see the world. Give me the vision. Use me for Your glory." So that's how I'm praying to God day and night. And there was a, uh after two, three days, uh, when I was praying and and someone came and touched my back, and I felt so a peace, comfort. And when I opened the Bible and, uh, God spoke from from Isaiah 6:8, "Whoso shall go for me?" Hmm. And when I I just opened that Bible, and that Scripture came right away. Wow. And, uh, and I cried to the Lord, and I said, "Lord, I will go for You."

Hmm. That's how God opened the door for me in a mission. So I was doing helping in ministry, but I wanted to do more for His kingdom. And God opened the door for me. And then I did youth I did, uh, Vivam Youth with the Mission. Hmm. And, uh, then I started doing more discipling people. And yeah. And and there was one time in my life, uh, I was broken. Uh, I was, uh, sad. Uh, I was I had an opportunity, but I didn't have back support. Or, like, my faith was weak in that time. Hmm. And because in India, parents take care of us, and when they're old, we have to take care of them.

That's the culture. And I was thinking, like, "Lord, I need to work. Uh, I need to help my parents." But God kept saying to me that, "I will take care of you. I brought you from from ground to heaven. I will take care of you. Like, I will make a way for you." But my faith was weak.

So that moment, I knelt down and prayed for to give me faith and courage. And I told God, "Lord, either You take my life or use me for Your glory." And that moment, I was I was seeking, and God really filled me filled with me anointing and gave me more strength. So, as the Bible tells us, when you are weak, I am strong in you.

So that's how God kept giving me encouragement and strengthening me to Mm-hmm keep building His kingdom. Mm-hmm. So you would have gone into ministry then at that point, I guess. Like, what did that look like? Were you traveling around as a missionary, or were you doing Bible teaching? Like, what is what does it look like, the kind of work that you did?

So really I did, uh, like, more working among the youth and, uh, working among the children's ministry. Uh, God has given me the heart to work among the widows, the orphanage, and the lost. And, uh, because I was one of them Mm-hmm in the past.

So God gave me a burden to win the soul, to to take that gospel, the good news, to the next generation. I was working, uh, with the, uh, youth who were lost, uh, who were finding the true God. So yeah. So God has given me a platform to evangelize, uh, some places I like an apostle to help them and establish them and move to other places. So that's how also God has given me the opportunity to do that too. And, uh, I got the opportunity, uh, to, uh, work among the jail ministry. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like a prison. Prison. Mm-hmm. Uh, I worked there four years.

And I'm going to tell you a story about that. Yeah. So in India, when you go to jail, you can't take your Bible. Hmm. Or you cannot speak about Jesus. So when you're going into the prison, you're not able to? No.

Okay. So what do you what do you do then? So and sometimes it's hard Yeah to, uh, bring some words to those people. Because as a pastor, as a leader, as a servant of God, uh, it's more easy. Like, for example, it's easy for me. It's more easier to preach to our people.

But, like, these kinds of people, when you go in and you're like, "What what's what should I say to them?" Okay. So I was inside a prisoner, and, uh, I was like, "Lord, Holy Spirit, You gave me wisdom and knowledge. I don't know what I should speak to them. Lord, You gave me wisdom and knowledge and strength." And I prayed that, and God gave me a word.

So I told everyone that, "You know why I'm here?" And they were like, "No, you don't know." So I told them, "I'm here. We are here because we love you." And, uh, and they said, "What does that mean?"

So I told them that I can be going to a good coffee shop and drink coffee. I can do shopping, or I can go visit a different state, a beautiful place, and enjoy my life. But we are here because we love you.

And then I told them there's a God who loves more than us.

And so I told them that they are not getting what I'm trying to tell them. So I told them, "You know why we are here? Because we love so much." To my brother. So they were like I told them that, "You want to see my brother whom I love so much?" And they were like, "Yes, I want to see him." So I opened my phone and I told them, "You want to see my brother?" Like, so I told them that he's my brother. Like, and they were like surprised because they were looking at themselves in the camera, and they were full of tears. Because when you personally tell them that you are my brother, they feel like they're like so joyful.

And so that's how I shared the gospel, that God loves you more than anyone, and He cares about you. Yeah. So that's how we started discipling them in the jail. Yeah. We did even vibe disciple training in jail. So that was really great.

That's that's incredible. Because especially if you're not able to even take a Bible in there, you know, then you're able to do that. Like, what other ministry things did you do? Because because you know, India, I'm guessing you would have run into probably a lot of Hindus, Muslims, what other religions there, you know, that don't like what you're doing, what you were teaching.

Actually, yeah. Talk to me about that. What other religions would have there been that you encountered or would be in that area where you were working? Uh, we worked among the, like, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhism. So that's the religion in India.

Like, 82% of Hindus are in India. Okay. And I think 10 to 12% are Muslim. The Muslim and Christian is like 2%. Oh, wow. Yeah, something like that. Very, very little. Yeah. Yeah. We worked among more Hindus and Buddhists. But there there was a time, like, we had worked with the Muslim people too. Uh, some of my friends, they are Muslims. So yeah, God has given us the opportunity to work among them.

Did you face a lot of um persecution or resistance from the Hindus or the Muslims or whatever as you were doing this ministry? Tell me about that. I want to tell about my family stories. My mom and dad, as they they worked worked, they went to visit a home and do worship and pray for that family.

And so that from that family, there were only one believer who accepted Christ as a Savior. But their their families were still unbelievers. And so it was at night, they were worshipping, and suddenly they attacked them with a knife, with a sword, with sticks, rocks, whatever.

So they just started attacking them. And yeah, it was a really tough time for us. But God saved them. They got injured, and it was in the news. Yeah. Oh, wow. But God really protected them. And there was some time that people stoned my parents. And there was a time that people kicked us out of the village.

And we couldn't have water from our own well. Like, from that village. Really? Yeah. Whoa. Like, if you would try, they would just come chase you away, or they just don't want you there. Yeah. They're basically trying to make you leave the village, I guess. Is that what they're trying to do? Yeah. And I'm guessing, as you were traveling around doing all this ministry and talking about Jesus very openly, you know, in these places and whatever, did you face this resistance or were they like, make you leave town or I don't know, whatever may have happened?

Yeah. What was that like? Did that happen to you? Yeah. There was there was a a time, uh, that, uh, people had stopped us and asked about my name. So we were, uh, doing ministry and going back to home. And, uh, they asked, like, "What's your name?" So my name is Marcus. Marcus is a Christian name. So he said, like, "Hey, come aside." And so it means dividing with the name because my name was Marcus.

So, uh, like, he warned us that we would kill you or we would put you in jail. So that's the and one time, uh, I was in outreach. And so every year, the Hindu festival, uh, they do there, like any Diwali or any festival, they had a huge program there.

No Christian can stand there and preach. So as I was in outreach, uh, I just stood on the stage, and I was sharing the gospel. At this Hindu festival? Yeah. Yeah. You are bold. Yeah. I mean, I was not that time. I mean, wow that time I had the boldness and courage. But there was yeah. So I was I mean, what happened?

Like, what did they do? What happened? So I was like, I didn't know about the situation. Uh-huh. And, uh, but I had really enthusiasm for the Lord. Like, I was sharing the gospel that Jesus died for you and, you know, He loves you and, uh, there's only one salvation, uh, through Jesus Christ. He's the hope and living God. And someone came from our group team and said, "We need to run from this place."

Yeah. So I said, "Why do you have to run? You need to finish to speak." Uh, and he said, "No, we need to leave fast." So so he explained to me that, uh, like, people are coming to attack us. We need to run because this place is full of unbelievers. Like, they're against what we're speaking. So, uh, we just really God, uh, you know, alerted us at the right time, and, uh, we just took our stuff and we just ran away from that place.

Wow. That that was bold. That was bold. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What about, um, your home village then, like where where your parents would be in in that area? Like, you're you're born into a Hindu situation, but your home village there, where you you said your parents did ministry for many, many years, is that now a Christian area? Is there a church there? Uh, what what's the situation like in in that village? So today, uh, there are more than 60% of Christians there. Wow. And, uh, around we have like around nearby our church, there was there are like, uh, maybe more than, uh, 50 churches. Hmm. We have. So God really, uh, messaged the good news is spreading like a fire among the tribal people.

See, the Bible tells us He came for the needy, the poor. Mm-hmm. See, uh, in the village, people live a normal life, a simple life. So if if their animals are getting sick, they will come to you and say, like, "Can you pray for that?" Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Or if they are sick, they will come to you and say, like, "Can you pray for that?" And then God does miracles and wonders.

And, uh, they they believe in Christ. Hmm. I mean, you say 50 churches now in that area. Yeah. Is that mostly from the work of your parents and others that that shared, or how where did how did those churches start? Yeah. Mostly, uh, my dad Mm-hmm, uh, reached out with the gospel to this area.

So but through that, he's he gave it to other people. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that's how it spread. And, uh, and now there are many leaders and pastors, uh, are growing. So in your home village, though, okay, now it's 60%, say, Christian, but like, was there a lot of a resistance or, um, um, attacks towards the church, uh, in the past where they were trying you know, people are starting to join the church, leave Hinduism? Did that cause trouble in your village?

Yeah, it does. Mm-hmm. Uh, it does. Uh, there was a time that 200 people came and to attack our church. 200? Yeah. That's like a whoa. That's a lot of people. Yeah. So they just come and, uh, hmm, warn us, like, "If you don't do this, if you do this, we will kill you. We will destroy the church." Yeah. So there was a time that happened because they were against us. But the good thing, good news or good thing is Christ teaches us to bear, to submit, to love our enemies.

And, uh, so no matter if they are Hindus or they are a different religion, uh, but we show love of God, and we have a good relationship as we make we build the relationship. Mm-hmm. So we have enthusiasm, but we need enthusiasm for God, but we need wisdom from God too. So, uh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tell me more about that. Because obviously, you have enthusiasm for for God. I mean, you're you're going to this Hindu festival and, you know, proclaiming the gospel, like boldness, enthusiasm. But then you say you also need wisdom. Tell me, how do those things go together in ministry, like in your own experience? Because what you're describing seems like you would need a lot of wisdom when dealing with, you know, 200 people showing up at your church, threatening you and saying, you know, "We don't like this. Do what we say," etc.

How does the enthusiasm and the wisdom go together? I'm not sure if it does that question make sense. It kind of makes sense in my mind, but I'm trying to untangle that a little. Mm-hmm. Wisdom with zeal is very important. Enthusiasm with like, as we go to a new place to minister or ministry or sharing the good news, uh, we want to work. God has given us the burden to work long-term, like five years or ten years. Okay. Mm-hmm. To proclaim the gospel to the not one person, to the whole village.

So for that, yeah, if I had enthusiasm, I would go to that village and share the gospel. I can share the gospel, but the same day, they would kick me out of that village. So it means we have God has planned long-term to be there and to minister. But because of our enthusiasm, but we didn't use the wisdom. Mm-hmm. The wisdom is we need to make a relationship with them, to know them, how what their culture is, how their lifestyle is, to sit with them, to ask, "What do you need?" Pray for them. So making a relationship matters. So that's wisdom. So enthusiasm with wisdom, if you if you take both of them in your ministry, then your ministry will grow more and more.

Mm-hmm. And you can reach more good you can share the good news with many people. Mm-hmm. That's how we do ministry in India. Mm-hmm. Because you see cultures, different varieties, and, uh, different tribes, different languages. Knowing is important. Hmm.

Because you're navigating such a complicated situation. I mean, there are so many different tribes and languages and religions. Um, I'm thinking specifically Hinduism. Like, Hinduism is really complicated. I I I don't really understand that religion at all. Um, could you tell me a little more about Hinduism? I mean, you obviously had a lot of interaction with these people. Like, what do they believe? What do they think about God? Um, what was their response to Christianity?

Really, anything on Hinduism, because I I just feel like I don't understand that that religion at all. Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world. It's the oldest. And, uh, there are, uh, 330 million gods. 330 million gods. I mean, that's that's as many gods as there are people living in America. Yeah. Whoa. That's a lot. That's a lot.

Okay. Explain that. You have to explain how how does that work in their worldview then? Like, is just everything a god to them, or what does that mean exactly? In India, uh, they believe in anyone. Like, for example, um, you are walking on the road and, uh, you fall down. You hit with a rock and you fall down.

And when you get up and you see that, oh, there was a big well, like there was a big, uh, hole that I could die. But this rock, this stone has saved me. Okay. Yeah. So then they will take that, uh, rock, like stone, and to home, and they start worshiping.

So there are lots of examples like that. Like, people believe like they don't want to know the truth. Mm-hmm. They just believe what people say. That's really odd. Like, so are the Hindus trying to do they have a sense of salvation, like trying to be saved from evil, or what are they trying to achieve as a religion? And then also, why do they find Christianity so threatening? At least in your experience, you're having, you know, these people show up at your church and say, "Leave," or whatever. I mean, all the different things you've been saying.

Do they see Christianity as a threat? And then, like, what are they trying to accomplish as a religion, the Hindus? In Hindu, they have the big role of like Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. So they were they are like creator and destroyer. So they are a god, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, many Hindus believe the world is part of Brahma.

It's a part of Brahma. Okay.

Like an extension of him. I mean, they believe that it's a part of. But our Christianity is not that, right? It's a God created the world, but it's not God. It's His creation. So they they would say, like, creation is part of God. Yeah. So that's why they could trip on that rock that keeps them from falling down a hole and then go worship that rock because it's part of God. Exactly. Kind of. So when you come in and preach the gospel, that's very different than what they believe about how God is.

And so they would they would view that as very, um, threatening or not not right. They would think that's that's very wrong, what you say. So in in Hindu, if you do any wrong thing, they don't see it as a sin.

Oh. Well, what do they see it as? They see it as a, uh, as a learning, you know, like that. Oh. Yeah. So then why do they, um, why do they persecute you and your family? Uh, because, uh, I mean, their religion teaches, uh, many, like, wrong things. Or, uh, like, for example, uh, Hindus believe in, uh, if you do good, you will get good.

Oh, okay. Is this the idea of karma? Yeah. That I've heard people talk about. Okay. So karma is like when you do good, you will get good. So if you don't do good, uh, then it will happen to you bad. So it means so, like, they believe in a next birth. Like, even if after you die, you are born again. So if you have good karma you did, you will be a good person or a rich person in the next after you die.

Reincarnation. Yeah. And if you if you did bad or sin, your karma is not good, then you become like an animal. So in that case, there would be no reason for them to help poor people. Yeah. Because the poor people are just getting what they deserved. Yeah. Because of karma. Karma.

Oh, wow. So the rich people think that they did bad in the past, so they they that's why they were born as poor. And then if you're a rich person, then you did a good karma. You did good. When, yeah. Am I. Yeah. And see, Christianity wouldn't say that. Obviously, Christianity is saying we must help the poor. Yeah. And oh my. So we the Bible says us we, uh, by the grace of God, we say God saved us, not my not our good works. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So not our by our good works or our what we did, but by the grace of God, God has saved us. But in their situation, it's like when you do good, you will, you know, you will in the next when you get birth, you will be a rich person or. Hmm. So does any of this relate to, um, the caste system in India? Is that is that a thing? Is that something you experienced where this is just kind of the life that you you are stuck in, this situation, etc.? Like, talk to me about that. Did you experience that, or is that or is that not relevant to this?

Actually, the caste system is banned in India, some areas, but still, the caste system is going on. And, uh, the caste system is like if I am an ST and and if you're you're having a high caste, then you will always look at me as a servant, as a laborer, and you will rule me. So there are that's why it's hard to, uh, like any poor person in India, it's hard to grow, you know? Oh, because they'll always just be stuck in, "This is just the way your life has to be." Yes. Well, that doesn't sound very nice. Yeah. Rich people don't want that this ST caste or the lower caste grow.

Your caste, you're saying. Yeah. The one that you would be. Where does it fall in the is it like a ranking type? Yeah. ST caste is the lowest. Oh, wow. Yeah. So you're like way down here. Yeah. Yeah. So all the other castes are supposedly better than that seems so strange. Have you had trouble with that where because you're from that low caste and you're going out doing ministry, they say, "Oh, you're we don't even need to listen to you because you're from this servant class or whatever." Does that does that ever happen? Yeah, it happens to us. Um, like any poor person feels awkward, like when you are in between rich people because they insult you, you know?

So as we are so I stayed in I was in an orphanage, but our school was private. So we and there, uh, kids don't want to eat with us, you know? Hmm. Children or yeah when we're grown, like youths don't want to sit with us. Uh, they think like we are Christians and, uh, poor and all that stuff. So they don't want to sit with us. Um, they hate us. They speak bad words to us, insulting us. So it was challenging for us, but we need to bear no matter what.

This has got to be difficult, though, because if you're facing persecution for your faith because of what you believe, but then also, according to this caste system situation, you know, you're way down here in the servant class or whatever, you have all these things, um, where people would be against you.

How did you learn to walk with that and and live with that? Because these things are pushing against you, you know? These people don't like you, say. How did you learn to continue doing ministry and be effective in your work despite all of that?

When I was, uh, like as I was in an orphanage and, uh, they had a challenging, uh, to different like, I have a different challenge in my life. I've seen thousands of people, uh, and their culture, their, you know? So I have grown up, uh, from a place and had a challenging means, uh, it's like every Christian has to go through the fire, or you can say every Christian has to go through the hot water to know how strong we are. So, like, when you see a cup of, uh, hot water and when you dip, uh, tea leaves so once one time you dip and when you drink, it's like light, strong, you know? So how how much you dip inside, it becomes stronger.

So your your coffee or your hot tea is stronger when you dip several times. So that's how Christian life every Christian life has to go through the hot water. So we are the soldiers. Like so God has purified me. God has strengthened me. God has made me stronger.

Uh, and through that taste and through the trials, God had given me strength to overcome this all. So it's not my strength. It's not my power, or it's not my knowledge. But He, you know, the One who is in me is greater than this world. Means I mean, that's enough. So that gives me strength to fight and, uh, encourage me in my life. And, uh, yeah. And God really talked from His Word how to deal with people.

So God already gave us an answer. Like, if any poor person, how you should talk, it's already there in the Word of God. How you talk with the rich people, it's already there in the Word of God. So there is, uh, God gave me wisdom through His Scripture, and, uh, that helps me. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So somewhere in this process, you, uh, meet someone pretty significant, which is now your wife, and you end up, um, coming here to America as well. Tell me that piece of your story and, like, what that transition was like for you. Um, yeah, coming here to America. So I met my wife in India and she came for a mission trip.

And, uh, anyways, I want to say that I did not marry her because she's from America, but it's a the it's a God's willing, uh, that. And she really had a heart for, uh, mission and ministry and, uh, for the kids, for the children.

And, uh, that's how how we met and know each other. And, uh, yeah, we got married and we moved to America. And America was so challenging. And, uh, like, before coming to India, uh, the U.S., I have never worked in my life.

Means I have worked like means I worked I did full most of my life, I did ministry. I was I was working, but I was not working like someone would pay me. There was some time, but it was not a long time. But and, uh, so I was doing full-time ministry in India.

And I moved to the U.S., and that was like totally different than India. Yeah. Yeah. It was so first, when I moved, if you don't have a driving license, it's hard to even, you know, to go anywhere. So I did my driving license, uh, and then all step by step. Uh, and I worked in construction work for around a year and, uh, it was challenging for me. And, uh, the culture was is different. The area, the I mean, everything is.

But yeah, it is challenging for me that, uh, how people's lifestyle here, uh, people are so busy, uh, and, uh, relationships are different here. People not much gathering or, uh, there is some stuff, but there was I've seen literally uh, I have met really godly people and good people in the U.S., like you. And there are some people are really I'm blessed to know them. And yeah, it was it's a beautiful place. And, uh, all countries have a, you know, weakness and strength. But yeah. Mm-hmm.

And you now you live here, but you do travel back and forth between here and India. Um, actually, I think you were just there a couple of weeks ago. So the ministry is still going there, I guess, and you're still involved. Is that is that correct? Or yeah, talk to me about that. Yeah, it's uh, it's correct. Uh, I still work, um, even though I'm here. Uh, ministry is still going on. And, uh, yeah, we had a good trip in India. Uh, it's really blessing to see family and all the church and church family and, uh, the ministry.

And, uh, it's not me that who runs this ministry. It's not any of my staff who runs this ministry. Ministry will always keep going even if I'm not here or not because this ministry is Jesus who's running this. So when He's our foundation. And, uh, so even though I'm here, uh, my heart is always for India and, uh, for the people, for the the lost soul.

Uh, I have a heart for the poor and needy. So, uh, we are training a new generation. We are training a more disciple so that they can, uh, work for the Kingdom. And that's how, uh, yeah. Hmm. So when you came here to America, for one, I'm sure there was like, you know, culture shock or, you know, the adjustment, right?

But what were things you saw here in our churches that were missing that that you can teach us from your experience in India?

I will tell more about, uh, to train a new generation, to build up a relationship and, uh, give opportunity to the new generation because that generation will take the good news to the next generation. So the truth will always because there are people who are destroying the truth. Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm. You know? And that's what's happening from since the beginning of this world. You know, the devil is trying to hide the truth or destroy the truth. But there were people. They were leaders. They were disciples who had bold courage to take that truth no matter if they they had to die or sacrifice. But they brought the truth to us.

And that's what I want to encourage that we need to keep spreading the truth as we are Christians, as we are leaders or servants of God. So is there a particular challenge that you would want listeners to take from this, like from your own experience of how they can learn from what you have went through that they can use in their own lives here in America? Because my, you know, my life experience is so different from what you went through. And and yet there's a lot of lessons here from what you went through that I think are important for someone like myself to to put into my own life. Are there personal things that you'd want to give to the listeners?

Yeah, I will tell that, uh, about the faith, uh, that as in the U.S., uh, what I've seen is that we have money, we're rich, so we don't ask God for anything. Like, hmm, like if I want to buy a phone, I will just go and buy the phone.

Or if I want to go to eat a good burger, I will just go and do it. Or if I need anything for myself or my for my home, I just buy it. But as as I grew up, uh, my depending was not on money because I didn't have money. My depend I was depending on God.

So if I want anything, I I always nail down to God and I ask God, "Lord, I need that." And so our trust should be not on something that doesn't last, but our trust should be in God. Because there will be a time when these things make us weak and make our faith weak.

See, you cannot have faith when you don't have suffering. You have when suffering comes, the faith grows. You can build faith by suffering. Faith never comes just it's not comes like you ask God and faith comes. No. Faith takes action.

It's just like that. "Lord, you use me for your glory, but I'm standing here. I'm I'm telling God, 'Lord, use me for your glory.'" Until I don't move, how can God use me? Hmm. So it's the same thing like that. So I encourage that no matter what, depend on God for your children, for your family, for your neighbor, for your finances, or anything. Even though you have everything, but you still need to depend. And that's difficult in the U.S. Yeah. And I experienced that as I'm here because my spiritual life like it was hard for me when I moved here because of being busy and all that. Then I had to make a decision in my life that, "Lord, I need to keep you first and trust you."

Would you have any stories from your ministry in India of examples of faith like that where you you really needed something? You had to ask God for that and God answering those prayers. Any stories that come to mind?

Like, for example, recently this happened. Uh, our whole crew, our members don't work. They are a full-time ministry. And, uh, and we all live by faith. And today, if you ask my staff or anyone to give your card or even my India card, like, you can take it because we don't have anything in our bank.