I Was Born an Ethnic Christian in Iraq. Then I Found Christ - Saher Haddad

It could be many things to show what it means to be non-resistant, to love, and to encourage, and to forgive. And for me, it was also a process. And this is a part of the Gospel. I don't think the Gospel is Jesus Christ died for your sin, this very short version of the Gospel. But the Gospel is all picture. It's the Kingdom of God.

Well, Zahir, welcome to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast. We're filming this in your home here in the Netherlands, but you're not originally from here. You're actually from Baghdad, Iraq. And it's quite a story of how you came here and how you came to Christ. And I want to capture that story today on the episode.

So let's just start from the beginning. Tell me a little bit about your upbringing. Were you raised in a Christian home? What was your experience with Christianity growing up in Baghdad? First of all, thank you for having me in this program.

I'm grown up in Baghdad. My parents were grown up in one of the villages around Mosul. So these villages are mostly Christian villages. We call them Christian villages. They are Chaldean villages. So they speak Chaldean. They are Catholic, most of them. I think all of them.

And my parents moved to Baghdad. My father was a bank manager, so he moved there. He studied in Baghdad. And my family were born in Baghdad. So I was born in Baghdad. I'm raised up in a Christian home, a Catholic home. So we usually use the word Catholic or Chaldean. It's an interchangeable description about how you are as a religion or ethnic. It's very interchangeable things. So sometimes you say, "I'm Catholic."

Usually, you say, "I'm Chaldean." But you mean, if it comes to religion, you are Christian, then everybody knows you are Christian. But we are described also our ethnicity as Chaldean. We went to the church. I remember in my childhood, we went regularly every Sunday to the church.

But at the table at home, I didn't have a lot of teaching about my religion as Catholic. So when I went to the church, there was kind of not very teaching, but like a literature. So sometimes a language which I didn't understood, habitus what I didn't understand, like lighting the candles, even lighting the electricity on and off, crazy things. I never understood them.

And there was a lot of going on in the church. And maybe the last part of the church going was kind of a sermon to teach and preach a way of life. So I didn't have a solid foundation about Catholicism until my age of 12. I went to a kind of communion teaching. So you can't go to take a bread until you have that Catholic teaching.

And that was an age, I guess, age of 12. Yeah. Then I was allowed. Yeah. So what was the experience like being in a Christian family, or at least nominally Christian family in Baghdad, in Iraq? Because as an American, my images of Iraq tend to be, oh, it's everybody is Muslim. It's this place where there are no Christians there at all. But your experience was clearly different than that. But what was that like? What was the environment like for you as a Christian living there? Yeah, indeed, it's not very true because there are two, maybe more 3% Christian Catholics in Iraq. We are definitely, we are the minority in Iraq. We are not, yeah, we are not very much.

But because of the wars, many Christians, many Catholics moved to Europe and to the United States and to Australia, all parts of the world. So what my experience was, do you mean how I lived my Christianity or how I experienced my Christianity in the Muslim country? I would be interested in both, actually. Yes, sure.

Well, it depends when you live in Baghdad. My experience, most of the neighbors accepted us as Christians. So I have Muslim friends, maybe more Muslim friends than Christian friends. But sometimes at school, they offended me to say, "Yeah, you eat pigs and like this." And that's kind of, it was a little bit uncomfortable sometimes. And yeah, I was always often accused when it comes to talk about religion with our Muslim children, or they are being taught what the Christian believe, like, you know, God the Father got married with Mary, and here is Jesus came.

So that was not very comfortable because I must explain, it's not like this, but I didn't know what it was looked like. So that was not very always comfortable. Yeah, yeah. But otherwise, I have a good relationship with people, and many Muslims appreciate Christians, but not always. It depends where you are and how strong the Muslim world around you.

If it comes to teaching, as I said, I didn't have a solid foundation in Catholicism. We didn't have devotion after supper or like this. We had one Bible. Sometimes it's been used to swear to tell the truth.

So it's not the kind of thing where you have a Bible and you're reading it regularly. Not very personally. It's my Bible. It's my relation with God. It's not like this. Because as a Catholic church, the emphasis was we are the church.

I didn't have this experience, but people told me when you have, even in Europe, when you have maybe six, seven children and the pastor comes after months, when will come the next one? So they want to multiply the Catholicism and Christianity in this way.

So that was also a common thing what we experienced. Yeah, yeah. So I don't have experience with evangelism, with necessity to be part of God's kingdom because you are born in the church, and the church is God's kingdom. So you would have been considered born into the, I was looking it up before. There's a lot of different words used for it. Like you had said Chaldean Christians or Catholic, Eastern Catholic, I think is one phrase. Either way, born into that system, I guess you could say, you would have been baptized as an infant, right, into that church. So that's just what you are now, I guess. Was that kind of, that was the mindset for the people?

Well, yes, just who you are. When people talk to you in Iraq, you are Muslim or Catholic. You are what you are. You are born in this group. So there is no, this is what makes it sometimes difficult when I meet a Muslim friend to tell them about the Gospel, then they assume that I am always being Christian, but it's not the case. I became a Christian. I have chosen to be a Christian, to follow Christ. So this is another concept maybe for, yeah. So in their mind, you are Christian or Muslim. You are Catholic or Protestant.

And before we turn the cameras on, we were talking about this a little bit because I was trying to get my head around this. Would you describe yourself as essentially a quote unquote cultural or just an ethnic Christian? As in, well, I was just kind of born into this ethnic Christian, but it's not real Christianity in that sense. Is that a fair way of describing it? That's my personal experience because I know people in my own family, they are very devoted to Catholicism. They are very convinced in this kind of religion, you know, to have a, they use the same words as Protestants and Anabaptists that have personal relations with Christ, but they have also certain prayers to Mary or to certain saints.

But they are very devoted. They are not necessarily nominal Christians. But your experience was not that. My experience was not always that. No. Most of the Christians, including me, you know, you go ahead to go to the bar to drink, to do many wrong things, the opposite of what they teach in the church.

And even in my town, I remember there were very common things. We are known as people who curse a lot, to misuse the name of God, Mary, Jesus, just as a joke. Not all of them, but it's a very common thing.

So yeah, and yet they say we are Christian and they are proud of it. So yeah, that was a very confusing thing to have. Yeah. So again, it is sounding to me, yeah, just not a lot of teaching. It doesn't sound like you had read through the scriptures much at all. There wasn't much to this outside of, this is just the culture I'm born into, really. This is just a tradition maybe, but it's not really real for you at this point in your life. That's right.

Yeah. That's right. So before we flew over here, which is, by the way, a wonderful experience, you and your family have been so hospitable to us. We have myself and my wife and our production person here and so forth. But before that, I'd called you and we were talking through a little bit of this. Okay, what do we want to share? And something you had mentioned, and I was like, oh, I want to ask you this when we're on the podcast. You had said you mentioned how you were resistant to the Gospel at different points in your life.

And why was that? And where in your journey was that happening? And what was that resistance like? What were you resisting against, I guess? Yeah. Good question. Yeah. Maybe it started in my earlier age when my experience was, as I told you, when I committed a sin, one of the family told me to burn my finger to chastise myself because I knew about Christ and his crucifixion for my sin. It was kind of a background thing, which is added to your salvation. But you must also chastise yourself. So this is one example of what I have experienced. And when I looked to pastors and their attitudes, I was very comfortable. It felt like there was like this very high hierarchy experience.

And when I was the age of 12, when I did the communion study, or yeah, let's call it like this, finally, before you became a real Catholic, to eat the bread at Sunday, you must confess your sins to a human being, to a man. So I remember I was confessing my sin to that man. And I was just like shaking because I was not only fearful to confess my sin, which was terrible for me, but I was afraid to forget something because of shame.

So if I don't confess, then maybe God will not forgive me. So the view of forgiveness of sin and to be justified, that word, I didn't know the existence of that word, by the way. It was not the case. It was just you must obey the church tradition and what they teach and where you confess and what you confess.

So that was kind of pressure what I have experienced. One thing more, there was a situation of divorce. And I remember, excuse me, unfortunately, we have experienced this situation of divorce in our home. And it is a very uncommon thing in Catholic Church to divorce people. It is very, maybe in modern days, very normal. But in that time, it was not normal. So in some way, they justified this case. And I don't know all details, but I remember the anger of my father and this confrontation with the pastors. So he began to become very an enemy for the church. And I heard him speak about them.

And so at that time, I was questioning everything. So is that Christianity? At the same time, I believed in the existence of God. I believed in Jesus. And one way or another, I loved Jesus. I don't know why.

Yeah. I don't think I was Christian, but I loved his teaching because I was a little bit familiar because of a videotape we have got once about Jesus' story according to the Gospel of Luke. Okay. So you had at least somewhere along there, you got at least a little familiarity with, okay, this is Jesus. This is some of the things he teaches, even though you're not a committed Christian at this point or a believer in Jesus. It was a very confusing thing because this is Jesus.

Well, it was an actor. It was not Jesus. So I understood that. But I got the message, at least the description of the Gospel in his preaching. So at the same time, I looked to leaders of the church, and I feel a very uncomfortable experience.

The way they speak, the way they look, the way they walk as well. So I don't know why, but I experienced a lot of pressures, plus the things what we have experienced as a family. So it was a very hard time. And from there, I think I began to say to myself, you know, that was the time about age of 14, 15. I just stopped to believe.

So I was used sometimes to fast and to pray just to get closer to God. But at the same time, I went back. So that was my inside confusion. So I began to resist Christianity when I was of age of maybe 16, 17 years old, when I said, okay, I didn't pay attention. You know, I came as a refugee in the Netherlands, so I have another headache.

I must wait maybe five years for my status. So yeah, it was a very hard time. So I stopped believing. So in that process, yeah, you mentioned something that I think is a pretty significant part of the story because we're recording this not in Baghdad, but we're recording this here in the Netherlands. Like you ultimately made your way to the Netherlands.

And so that's happening right around the time where you're saying, I'm starting to doubt, I don't believe, etc. Can you tell us a little bit of that story? How did you even end up here? And then what happened once you arrived, especially with this process of where you're saying, you know what, I'm just, I'm resisting the Gospel. I don't want anything to do with this anymore. Yeah.

Yeah. Again, I didn't know very much about the Gospel. I just resisted to be a Christian and to go to the church. That was my Gospel experience. So because of the crisis I have experienced, because I was a refugee, you know, almost 16 years old, so I have a lot of kind of identity crisis. Who am I and where I'm going and etc.

So we met some people from, I think, yeah, reform Christian in the Netherlands. And they invited me once to them and later started an Arabic-speaking conference. That was in 2001. So yeah, I'm not sure whether I went immediately, but I finally went to that conference. It was a three-day conference. This is in the Netherlands, like after you've moved here. Like you moved to the Netherlands. What year was that?

1997. Okay. So you would have lived here for four years before this conference then, at that point. Okay. Yeah. That's helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in those years, you're not doing anything with Christianity. This conference comes up and you just did decide to go then. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I decided to go with my family.

So it was a three-day conference. To us, my experience was very, very warm. So I saw people praying and hugging each other and sharing tears and, wow, that's really different what I have used to see. And for the first time, I heard, you must be born again.

So they told me the Roman throat, you know, we're all sinners and because of our sin, Jesus came to the earth and he paid all. And if you believe in him, you will have a new life. So that touched me very deeply. And I was very, I started to be convinced because this is what it is. I am a sinner.

And I know about the existence of Jesus and I heard teachings of the kingdom of the Gospel. So I thought it was also an emotional experience because, you know, a conference and you see many people crying and praying and hugging and encouraging. And so I thought, yes, this is heaven on earth.

I like that. Yeah.

But in that time, yeah, I was really in the world. I started to discover too, yeah, before the hearing of the Gospel, I went outside with friends using alcohol and drugs and cigarettes and like this. So I had two directions at that time. So that was struggling also to receive the Gospel.

And maybe because of the old background of the pain and all the confusion I have experienced, I thought, yeah, okay, it could be truth. This is truth. I feel it. But after the conference, it was just cool down. Why? I don't know. I remember one prayer. I prayed to God. I said, I'm not sure about it. I love it, but I can't give myself. And they used this term, you must give yourself to Jesus and he comes to your heart. So I was very scared to do this big step for me and not 100% sure where it will end. So I asked God through prayer, I want to go to the world, but don't let me go too far.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, that kind of Gospel preaching I have heard. And at the same time, I wanted to see a fellowship at church, not only the conference, but real discipleship and fellowship. So I didn't have that thing, people who received me to teach me more about that.

So that was a point where it wasn't necessarily you converted to Jesus then and there. Was that maybe the beginnings of a journey though? Yeah. Yeah. Is that it? So that's in 2001. Yeah. You don't come to Jesus at that point. No. What happens after that?

The message has followed me a lot every day almost. So as I told you, I had a lot of crisis in my that age. It was a very difficult time. So you must do many choices, you know, about your future, what you want to be and who you are, etc.

So my eyes were open to the world, to just enjoy the world. And I discovered friends and drugs and going out on Saturday night and that stuff. So it was very, very difficult to make a choice like I want to follow Christ because I was also denying Christ in many ways.

There was some, I think, kind of sadness inside me to resist the love of Christ. So I think I had a problem with that a lot, to be loved and yeah, to have another lifestyle. So I have chosen to live my life to forget many things. So I was addicted to alcohol. I drank every day. And I gambled a lot of money. And on Saturday and Friday and Saturday, I went out with my friends. So just to be another person, to forget many things.

And I was also thinking about my career to be, I don't know, rich or famous or something like that. Inside me, I didn't want that as well. But I thought this is maybe the way to live. So that was a conflict inside me to end up in something. And what's a funny thing is I knew if I would reach to be very famous or rich or whatever, whatever, then I will turn to Christ. That was my thought.

I can't explain it, but. Is it an idea of once my life is good, then I'll turn to Christ or something like that? Something like that, yeah. While I knew if my life is good, then you don't need Christ. So it was very clear in my understanding.

And yeah, but it was maybe a way to flee. I think that's a better word to use, to flee from the reality. So last years, I think in 2008, I remember 2007, I had really crisis. I became kind of sick. So I said to my work, I want just to rest some few weeks. And that was the beginning of my depression. So I'm sorry, I missed one part. Before that, because I have a problem with addiction, I wanted to be free from alcohol, from gambling in particular. So I went to rehab. It was my own initiative. So I went there for, I think, six or eight weeks. It was a very, very, very difficult time.

My whole body was shaking because of lack of alcohol. And I wanted to stop smoking also. And it was a very, very hard time. So plus that, I began to be in the signs of depression. So I went to the doctor in that rehab and told him about the situation, about my experiences. So I have got some antidepressant at that time also. So finally, when I was free from alcohol after six or eight weeks, I thought, okay, I want to go to the supermarket again to buy one bottle of alcohol. So I did that again. I thought, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. So, you know, you know what? I'm going to drink and to smoke.

And I will see where it will end up.

I remember I asked my father, I need some dollars because I must pay my, yeah, I had some stuff to pay. So I was actually lying because I needed money to gamble.

So I planned my flight to my father. And at that time, there was again a conference. So I went with a friend of mine to the conference. And I heard the same things as nine years ago. And I was deeply touched again.

So I began to be very angry. So I began to cry. I didn't understand anything. What should I do? And it was lack of alcohol. So I was not allowed to drink. So I went back. I stopped with the conference. It was, I think, five days.

So I stopped there after two days. I went back to my home. I started to drink again. And I called my father. I'm coming this week because I need some money to pay back. It was, of course, a lie.

So at that time, something happened. I remember I took a shower. I took a cup of coffee. And I sat like this. And as if the Lord was speaking to my heart that time, do you want my way or that way?

I remember these words. It's not a physical voice like this, but it was just a very clear voice inside me. Maybe because I needed it. So I prayed maybe two sentences, please, Lord, help me. I want to stop. And I suddenly knew that moment. I don't need to gamble anymore. And yeah, from that time, I knew I have a new life from now on. Yeah.

So yeah, I can't describe this experience or feeling. It's not necessary for everybody, but I knew there's something new. I accepted Christ and somehow. So yeah, so I stopped there, this terrible habit. Yeah. So that was the starting point and turning point. And you're saying there was nine years between that first conference where you hear the gospel and you're attracted to it, but you decide not, you're not going to accept. There's nine years till you get to this point, or roughly nine years. It sounds like you're at a point of desperation. You're kind of out of options. I was, yeah. This isn't working. Or like, this is not the life that I should be living.

Yeah. That's quite a process. Was it kind of like nine years of running away from the truth that you had heard? Or did it not even feel like that? Was it just, you were just living life? Yes, it was both. I was, yeah, fleeing from the reality. At the same time, there were moments I could enjoy the things that I did, but very limited. Yeah. So for nine years, yeah.

Wow. And so at that point, what changes then? You reached a point where a decision, inflection, I guess, in your life. Yeah. I think the conviction was very strong in these nine years. I knew something which is very, when I went to casino to gamble, I was praying, please, Lord, don't be with me. Because it was kind of, if you are with me, then I will lose.

Oh, wow. Yeah. It was very terrible. So I was in. So you definitely had an awareness. I had prayer. Almost daily prayers to the Lord. Wow. Without to be born again or, but I knew there was so strong conviction.

And I knew that there is kind of new life. So I loved to be a part of the kingdom. But in one way or other, I didn't make it in this, unfortunately, in these nine years. So maybe it was a lot of disappointment and lack of communities and true discipleships. And yeah, maybe it could be different.

Yeah. So once you make that decision that there's going to be a change now, you're going to stop running and actually accept the gift that Christ has given us and choose that this is where you want to live now. Yeah. Like what starts changing in your life?

Well, first of all, I was free from gambling and another addiction as well. So I prayed to be free from alcohol because I was, when I was in Iraq, I was drinking already. A strong kind of alcohol. So I was very, it was in my body.

Yeah. So I couldn't get rid of alcohol. So I prayed for that. And so many things changed outwardly, you know, like gambling, smoking, alcohol. That was more gradually one year later. I knew the most part was inside me. I was very hungry for the word. And to be, yeah, following Jesus. And I would like to obey him and everything.

So yeah, my journey started right there to seek a fellowship in a church. Yeah. And this is probably, if I'm hearing the story right, this is where you start getting into the scriptures for the first time in a serious way, right? Where you're reading it, studying it, learning. Is that an accurate way of saying it? Yeah. I started to read the New Testament. Yeah. To listen and read as well. Not very deep studying, but just listening again and again. Yeah. Yeah. And then finding a church. And now, I mean, your life is so radically different than what it would have been those years ago. Yeah.

It's almost hard to, people look at that and it's hard to believe sometimes. Like how can someone change that much? You know, I think there's a thread here that I'm trying to piece together. But that these journeys take some time sometimes. Like it sounds to me this wasn't just you woke up one day and I'm going to be a Christian. You know, it feels like you were, back to that question I'd asked earlier about resisting. It felt like.

Wrestling. Yeah, wrestling. Yeah, that's a good word for it. Why do you think that was, the wrestling? What was making you hold back? Good question. Yeah.

I think fear and anger.

These two words come to my mind. I think, yeah, there was a lot of fear and anger toward God. And yeah, that was a regular experience. To blame God for many things. And my experiences at many things which would happen in the past. So that made me very, yeah, resisting the love and resisting the message in itself.

So for anyone listening to this that's perhaps on a journey somewhat like yours where they're going through this process or they know someone in their life, I can immediately think of several friends, you know, people that I know that are maybe in a similar phase where they've heard truth, but they haven't fully accepted yet, but they know that it's true. Yeah. What's a word of advice or encouragement you would give to people like that from your own experience? Yeah. I think I would encourage people to be honest about their anger and discouragement and disappointment.

To cry out to God what they think about God. Even if it's a maybe not kind word. Because I remember before I became a Christian, I spoke to, I opened my heart to God to tell him what I think about him. And I was very angry. And yeah, I spoke words I will not use in this episode. So I'm not saying use this word, but I'm saying be honest about your thinking and your feeling.

Because there's nothing hidden before God. And if you are honest, God seeks honest people, not almost perfect people to make them perfect. But honesty. That's an important piece of what you just said there. I've not thought about it that way. God doesn't seek almost perfect people necessarily to make, you know, but honest people. That's really profound.

Again, for people listening who might have a friend that's going through this, how can we, whoever it is out there that's hearing this, how can they come alongside those people that are on this journey who are maybe resisting the truth? How practically can we encourage people to come to Christ, to let these things go, the addictions, the anger, whatever it might be?

Can you think back in times of your own life where perhaps if you would have had better influences or community of believers around you that could have helped speak into you? And maybe that's too much speculation, but I think that could be an important piece too.

How can we take this and help others around us who might be going through these things? Yeah. It's a very good question. I'm glad you are asking me this because many Christians, including me, make the same mistake to Christianize people, whatever it costs. You know, Christ died for his sin. And we are all sinners.

And we forget a step before that to put yourself in their shoes. So to acknowledge that they are addicted, for example. To acknowledge they have a background of pain or just to listen to them for a while. To maybe take, it could take maybe a few years, two years, three years, five years.

So William Booth, his philosophy was, first, you give them food before you preach the gospel. And I think Jesus did the same thing. He healed people. He listened to people. He encouraged people before giving them the message. So he did good. So this is one of the parts we should not forget to do good to the people. You told me about the missionary in Iraq and the Middle East.

You are trying to win their trust because in particular, people in the Middle East or wherever, they think, oh, the Western countries, they are coming to Christians. So I think one of the best methods is to win someone's trust. And in my case, it was for me more helpful that people would acknowledge that I am in the mess. I don't need advice at that moment.

So I think that would be very helpful to put your arm on their shoulder to say, well, I'm very sorry for you. I think maybe that is 50% preaching the gospel in this action. So to be a listener more than a speaker.

Yeah, I think the preaching will come gradually. You're outlining something that involves a lot of patience, you know, and that these things take time. Your story spans years, you know, many years. We've covered a lot of years in this episode where starting in Iraq, you know, with more of the nominal Christian experience that you had there, coming here and to the Netherlands, I mean, and just leaving a lot of that, you know, getting into different addictions and whatever, but hearing the truth and then saying, I don't, I'm not ready for that yet. Until eventually you do arrive at the place where you come to Christ.

That just shows, it shows to me that these things are a process and it can take time. I wonder if sometimes we don't have the patience when we work with people. We want to get them fixed right away, you know.

I feel like that might be a danger here. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. You could not believe it. I made the same mistakes for a long time. I wanted to Christian. I didn't understand people who were not Christians.

Yeah. But gradually, the Lord was gracious to me and patient. So I must show patience. In particular, for people who have a baggage of sorrow and past and addiction. Yeah. Yeah. And there are a lot. So it would be very helpful to hear some encouraging word or maybe a word of appreciation.

You are good in that or that. Maybe it could be a starting point because they want to see the fruits. And this is one of the things what helped my resistance to the gospel. I saw preaching, not the fruit. So why should I follow Christ without, you know, because we are little Christs. So if we only preach and not do good and not listen enough and to be maybe better than others to preach the truth because I have the truth, then it will not be helpful.

Yeah. You're talking, it sounds like you're describing like genuine care for people, not just saying the right things. Yeah. Like you actually live it. Yeah. We are tempted to separate these two things. I have learned in my walk with Christ and the Protestant view of point. There is a strong tendency to separate the good works or to be kind and to hear the gospel. I met a lot of people. Yes, they don't need bread. They need Jesus. You know, it sounds very spiritual, but it is not because they need bread when they are hungry.

So you give them bread. And if some guy never heard, I love you, then you maybe you should be the first one to say this word because he never heard that. And this can go on. So it could be many things to show what it means to be non-resistant, to love and to encourage and to forgive.

And for me, it was also a process. And this is a part of the gospel. I don't think the gospel is Jesus Christ died for your sin. This very short version of the gospel. But the gospel is all picture. It's the kingdom of God.

We can't take just a little tiny slice or a little piece, but there's so much more to it in how we care for others and how we actually live it and show it to the people around us. Yeah, that's really powerful.

So we've covered a lot of things in this episode. This has been fascinating hearing your story. I feel like I've learned a lot. I think people listening to this will, I've learned a lot. And I hope they'll take from this your encouragement to walk alongside people and really care for them. And your point earlier about how this can take a long time, you know, it might be years before you see anything. And that was your situation for many years before you finally accepted Christ.

And that can be hard to have that level of patience. But I think that's an important piece to leave people. So as we wrap this episode up, is there any final words you'd like to leave our audience? I think I have said everything with that. Okay. Well, Sahir, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. And yeah, thank you for being willing to share your testimony with us. Enjoy. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode with Sahir. If you found this topic intriguing, you'll like this other episode we did with Lucas Hilty where he talks about the early church history through the Middle East. You can find that linked in the description down below. We also have a monthly email newsletter which you can sign up on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. Thanks again for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.