I Was a New Age Gothic. Then I Saw Every Knee Bows to Jesus - Susie Coyne

But then Satan then taints your mind. So you start finding these things very lovely, like not lovely, but like you were, you find the dark things beautiful in a twisted way. Like you romanticize death, you know, you don't see it as what it is. Um, you see it as some people in nice black dress, white, and forever frolicking through the forest. I don't know how to say it, but yeah, it's not the real thing at all.

Susie, welcome to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast. Um, you're originally from Slovakia, I believe, uh, which isn't where we are right now. We're actually in Ireland. Uh, but there's a story there, and we want to capture some of your story of how you came to Christ and the journey you've been on over the years. And so I guess to start it off with, yeah, where were you born? Uh, what kind of, did did you have a religious upbringing? You know, yeah, what was the environment you were born into? Well, I was born in Slovakia. I'm from Bratislava, which is the capital city.

And I grew up in the most densely populated district, which was called Petržalka, which, um, has a lot of, um, concrete blocks of flats, like the typical Russian ones. Oh, that's true, because there'd been Soviet Union before. Yes, yes. So yeah, it looks very, very similar to that. And, um, yeah, I lived in one of those buildings with my mom and dad and my brother. And we were just, in quotations, like a typical family. Um, we went to school, my mom and dad were working. Yeah, I had no religious upbringing at all, because during the Soviet times, religion has been banned. So there was, like, you couldn't have any, um, religious ideologies, like not just a Christian, but any other ones as well.

So Christianity really kind of disappeared from, from Slovakia at that time. So no one was getting baptized, no one was going to church, or, you know, people were learning more about what the party wanted them to know. And so, yeah, when I was born, the communism fell, the world has started changing.

And when I became, when I went to my first grade, that's when the religion started to get back again into the country. They opened the first religious class. It was a Catholic class. And, um, I only knew about Jesus from Christmas stories.

A lot of the children went to this religious class, but I didn't. And so I— You didn't. So why? I don't know. I just didn't know what to do there. And my parents were not interested. So I just was out with the teacher because it was after school. So it was like an after-school thing that you can choose to go to or not.

Uh, but I was very bored, you know. Uh, so I was like, well, all my friends are in this class and I want to go there too. And I was like, okay, I want—I learned about Jesus. Like, it would be nice to know what, what is it about more. And he's a nice guy.

Just, just his little innocent thoughts. And, um, so I asked mom, can I go? And she was like, okay. She just let me go. I don't really remember any details, like did she have objections or not. But then it turned out that this religious class was about children getting baptized.

So because children were not being baptized back then, so they wanted new people to start attending church and stuff like that. So yeah, I was 10 years old and I asked my mom, can I get baptized? Because I started to like Jesus.

Uh, he became my friend in a way. Um, I learned how to pray. Uh, I was going to church with my friends. My family didn't go to church because we— So just you then? Yeah, it was just me with your friends. Yeah. And again, this is Catholic? This is Catholic, yes.

Um, we just had church very close to our house, so it wasn't a problem to go there with my friends. And, um, yeah, and then I asked mom, can I get baptized? And she didn't want me to get baptized because she just didn't believe in it. She didn't think it was necessary or she was worried that I was going too deep into it or something.

And she told me that I had this look of horror on my face, that I didn't want to go to hell. And so when she saw my face, she said, okay, you can get baptized. And I started the process of getting baptized. I was, um, we had several meetings with the priest and, um, yeah, he was just preparing us on the journey.

And, um, yeah, I got baptized and I still believed in God. I still attended this class. I was way older. And then you go to your first communion and then you go to confirmation. And that was when I was in my teenage years. I was about 13 or 14.

And then the priest said that if you want to get confirmed, you have to be very serious about your faith, because that means you are beginning your journey to live like God wants you to live and to follow the Catholic, um, how would I say, faith? I, you know, like the rules and the stuff like that. Not just the basics of the Christianity, but like what the church would say, right? Like what the Catholic church would would ask you to do. Yes. Yeah. Okay. But I started having different, um, different, how would I say it, interests, you know, teenagers.

You're influenced by television and music and magazines and your friends, especially. And so I said to myself that, you know, I am not serious and I don't think I will be able for it. And I would not be honest if I went ahead and got this confirmation.

And I told that to the priest and he was very disappointed. But maybe he felt like, you know, better to be honest than than doing it and then just doing it for the wrong reasons. And yeah, ever since then I just abandoned the whole, like I didn't abandon, like I did like Jesus still, but I just got deeper into other things. Hmm. So Christianity kind of falls out of your life, so to speak, right? It just, regular life starts happening and you get involved in other things and just, it just kind of disappears. Yeah. In a way. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you don't have it in your family. It's very easy. That's true. Yeah. So, so like you're, um, say you had a sibling, but you know, um, and your parents, so they never really got involved in any of this.

No. No, and my brother used to make fun of me a lot about it. Oh. So, you know, I was like, oh, okay. Mm-hmm. I didn't find it. I don't know, I guess I didn't have a relationship with Christ at the time. Mm-hmm. And I just knew it from the Catholic point of view. I didn't really read the Bible.

There were just the songbooks that we had or whatever, how the mass goes every time and it's always the same. And yeah, I didn't know much about how Christian lives or anything like that. So I found other things to do. I got into, sorry. So I was, yeah, that's what I was going to ask. So what happens to you at this point? So you're in your, your teenage years, I guess. Yeah. And so life continues on, you get involved in other things. Like, yeah, where do you go then from this point? Well, I started being interested in subcultures.

So subcultures as in the music subcultures. I looked at the alternative kind of scene where there was a lot of, it was kind of new because, um, yeah, the 90s and the early 2000s were like kind of like the boom in the Western culture coming into the country. Oh, true. Because again, the fall of communism in '89, I guess, is when that would have, or '89, '90, when that would really start to happen. Yeah.

So there was a lot of new music coming in and I really liked it at the time. Like I liked the rock music and the different things, you know, the different bands and I got different friends. And then, um, you know, then there were interests like in different, like paganism was very like hand in hand and with the subcultures and the music.

Oh, interesting. So it was, okay, I wouldn't have, I guess that kind of makes sense now that you say it. I just have never thought of that before. So when you start getting into the music scene, it, you start getting these other ideas, worldviews, I guess, getting pulled in with it. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, exactly. And everything just started to be so interesting. And, um, even the television started being like, like the Harry Potter came out in the 2000s. And then there was like the different, like the witching movies.

There was a lot of them in the early 2000s and on, but like a lot. It basically was almost a genre. It was. In a way, right? Yeah. And so that was like, well, I wonder, you know, the internet came out. Yeah. You know, it was very dangerous times, I guess, for, for, for, for kids at that time. So yeah, there was different people meeting in different places and they had the same interests as you. So you learn a lot of different things that you don't want to learn about. So you then find out that, you know, witchcraft is true. And like, what if we could, you know, look into a bit deeper and sure, what can you do?

We didn't know the real witchcraft where people hurt other people, but just like this watered down. Like a pop culture witchcraft kind of entertainment witchcraft, like Harry Potter, for example. I mean, that's an entertainment thing. I mean, it's a movie, whatever. It wasn't serious in any way because I knew that there are demonic forces from, from like the movies or whatever. But I believe in them. And, um, so I didn't want to go deep into that kind of thing. Yeah. So then there was like the white, the white, they call it like the white witchcraft or whatever. It's all the same. But like, you know, the Celts and the Vikings and their, their pagan things and the, you know, the druids and the herbs and things like that.

That was very interesting. But I, again, I only saw it as I was just romanticizing it. Mm-hmm. You know, it was just in that kind of, like the, the, the culture, the music, the clothes, the people, how they used to live, that what drew me to that. Mm-hmm. So how, how deeply involved then did you get into this? Did this turn into a major part of your life going forward, like, you know, through your teens into your 20s? Yeah. Uh, what did that look like for you? Because I was from the capital city, there was a lot of places where you could meet with people that are interested in these different things. Like there were people that were doing like historical reenactments.

And so they were very interested in this mythology and whatever. Then there was this Gothic subculture. And they used to have like, like different pubs. We used to go to different pubs and we used to have this thing called Bat Caves, which were like kind of like a discotheque, which was like on the ground and in a, like a dungeon. Mm-hmm.

And it was, yeah, it's a bit embarrassing, sorry. No, no, I understand though, because this is a significant undercurrent of culture, right? In a lot of places. I mean, there's a lot of people that get involved in this or you're, um, become part of it, whatever. But then Satan then taints your mind. So you start finding these things very lovely. Like not lovely, but like you are, you find the dark things beautiful in a twisted way. Like you romanticize death, you know, you don't see it as what it is. Um, you see it as some people in nice black dress, white and forever frolicking through the forest. I don't know how to say it, but yeah, it's not the real thing at all.

Um, yeah, you just go in towards like the horror movies and, you know, then like, it's like, it's like Satan is working in your mind, but you don't know about it. You know, nothing significant is really happening, but you find yourself getting like depressed or you're not doing well at school or you don't get on with your parents very well. You're a loner. You just want to be with your friends or you want to drink or you want to smoke and, you know, these kinds of things. So that's where a lot of my friends went down that road. Mm-hmm. You mentioned, um, Gothic, um, previously. Was that also part of the picture? Oh, yeah, very part of the story.

Yeah, that was very much so. Like you would have identified with that at for a while? Yeah. Oh, yeah, I would. Yeah, I would. We would go to, we would go to cemeteries and drink there and it would be just, that would be our pastime. And we would just love places like that, abandoned houses and just things like that.

I think there's, um, that is, I don't fully understand all the forces involved, obviously, but you know, Christ coming in and defeating death and conquering the grave and, you know, these are core fundamental doctrines of Christianity about how death is a great evil that, um, God has conquered and Christ has conquered. But then you have these other groups, Gothic, you know, neo-paganism, I guess, you know, some of these groups that are saying, oh, well, no, that's not that they, they reinterpret what death is and turn it into something that's deglamorize it. Yeah, there you go. That's maybe the word I'm looking for. And I, as a Christian, I've never understood that. Like it just seems, I don't get it at all.

But hearing what you're describing, wow, that's actually starting to make sense, you know, how someone could get into that. Yeah. You know, if they don't have the Christian framework of how death is viewed through, you know, in the lens of scripture. Well, they say that they see it as a rebellion. Like they, they don't want to live in the world. Like for me personally, I didn't like the world that I was in. I thought people were judging me. I couldn't identify with people. So I thought, well, well, these people understand me. Mm-hmm. It feels good to be when you are down and like the, the loner stage of life. Mm-hmm. It's, it's just, just appealing to, you know, I, I don't understand it now either.

But yeah, it was just some, it was just, I don't know. It was different than you can escape into that kind of, yeah, reality. Almost like, like escapism. I, I hesitate to use that term because I'm sure there's more involved, but escapism is very real for a lot of people. They just want to get out of whatever situation they're in. Yeah, exactly. Um, you mentioned loneliness too. It feels like that's an important part of this story, like looking for friends, looking for a place. Uh, well, yeah, looking for a place, a place to belong, to be a part of. Yeah. Would have that maybe at the time you couldn't have articulated it like that, but that would have been one of the driving factors for you, I assume.

I suppose, because I don't know whether I'm too emotional or a deep thinker, but I felt like that subculture in particular understands me. Like when children are sad and then they hear sad music and it was like, oh yeah, that's exactly what I'm going through. Even though it's just a really teenager, it's really sometimes I have silly problems, but anyway, um, yeah, I guess that's what gets you. Hmm. These people understand me. They know exactly what I'm going through. They're not trying to help me. They're just being misery loves company and Mm-hmm. That's how it was. And we were sat together, you know.

Uh, was there any particular worldviews that you would have started associating with? I mean, you mentioned the Gothic scene. Um, were there others, like, I don't know, you know, New Age, different forms of the New Age, uh, movement, and there's different spiritualist movements and so forth that tend to get wrapped in with, as you mentioned, paganism. But were there any in particular that you would have said, yeah, I identify with that. I'm a part of this group. Maybe later on when I met my husband. Okay.

So that story goes well in my 20s then because I would still was in this subculture until like the 2012 when like the end of the world and the Mayans and all that. Were you, were you in on that a little bit? Yeah, that was, yeah. That was, I looked into that a little bit and for those listening, I may not have a clue what we're talking about. Um, yeah, that was really a thing. Yeah, it was. You know, because the Mayan calendar supposedly ended in the year 2012. And so that means the world's going to end or something. Or there was all kinds of different interpretations. So I read some of the pop literature on it just to be like, what, what is going on?

And yeah, that was, that was really a thing for a while. Yeah. Obviously it's not anymore because that has come and gone. Yeah, it didn't end. Um, but yeah, so was that a, was that kind of a turning point for you? Like it was supposed to end and it didn't? It was more that it was supposed to like transition into like this better place. Like the world was supposed to be a better place or something like that. Oh, well, that didn't happen. No, it did not. You see, when you, when you strive for your problems to disappear, and the easiest way would be for the, for the world to end or just to transform into a better place.

Oh, that is profound. You know? Yeah, that makes so much work. If you used to believe that, then, you know. So no wonder a lot of people really probably latched onto that. They're looking for hope. Yes. It's like, oh, well, I don't have to, I don't know, I'm in so much debt. Now when this world ends or if we go into the fourth dimension or whatever they were calling it, I'm not in the debt anymore. I am, everyone's happy. I can start over. I don't know, things like that. Wow. Mm-hmm. So that, that was a pivot point then for you that year. Yeah. Because at the time then I know my now husband and we were talking a lot about it.

So I guess we were learning the different spiritual things about New Age, like how there is, I don't know, I don't want to go into details because I don't want to influence anybody. So. But that, that's where the New Age element starts coming in, which, which also for anyone listening, you know, we, we did interview your husband as well, got some of his story. Um, so Enda, um, yeah, is his name. And I'm not sure which order we'll release, uh, which one will come first, but anyways, because he was describing some of the New Age and its, its appeal, you know, to, to people. And, and I can, I honestly, I can see that. Like if you didn't have a community or a, um, a Christian setting or, you know, close friends like that, you're looking for something, you know.

Yeah. Well, okay. To back up a little bit, because he's, he's Irish, you're Slovakian. How did you all meet and then start doing this New Age thing? And yeah, what, walk me through that. Because those two countries aren't exactly close to each other. Yeah. Um, well, I wanted to learn English. I went prior, I met him, I went to England for two months.

And so I wanted to kind of push off and to keep going. And so I just was looking for like some sort of a chat room that with native English speakers. And that's where I met my husband. And I was 16 at the time. And he was 19. And the year after, I went to Ireland.

And, um, yeah, we met as well.

In Dublin, we met twice. And then we kind of just, um, had our relationship online mostly. So it was a long distance relationship. And it went on, on, I was going to Ireland every summer holidays. And then I will come back. And then eventually my husband would come to Slovakia for, I think, about eight months or so.

And we would just go back and forth until 2014. That's where I came to Ireland permanently. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Again, this is where the New Age element starts coming in right after this point, after the 2012, uh, thing, you know. And, um, and so that gets involved. Were you doing this, you and your husband together? Uh, I assume there's that element. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because there was this lady that we were influenced by. And she had some, now when I think about it, it was, it was real. I'm not saying it wasn't. Mm-hmm. But the things she thought she was talking to was not some ascended master aliens up in the sky.

But they were demons. Basically, she was channeling and she didn't know about it. She thought she was talking to, hmm, like a, like a group, how do I say, a group of awareness of some sort or I don't know. Like the, um, there's, yeah, there's teachings on that, like the divine consciousness of whatever, you know, it might be, and we can access it through different, different means. And that would, that would be very part of the New Age movement, right? I think they all get jumbled in my mind. I know, yeah.

But they're basically about that. Like everyone is a part of this consciousness and you, and you are here to raise vibrations or something like that. And it's very selfish, self-centered religion. It's basically you are a God in a, in a sense or a part of. You're part of the divine. Yeah, like here you have the role too, to help people to, to be enlightened or something, I don't know. Mm-hmm. But it's very, it's a very self-centered thing. Yeah. But again, that, this strikes me as, you know, you were searching, you were searching for something. Mm-hmm. And without guidance or, or the right people in your life, it's easy to, well, we should try this. Well, you know, you're trying things like, okay, is this it?

Is this the real thing? You know, and I'm guessing this, this lady that, uh, you were connecting with probably had many things that she did that sounded really convincing or were, or were very convincing. Maybe they were the real, they, they seem very real. Yeah. Um, I don't know if you want to speak into that, but, uh, because if there's dark forces involved, I'm guessing there's, there were elements that were quite convincing. Very. Because we got so deep into it that we wanted to do it as well. Mm-hmm. So we paid a lot of money to get the course.

And she, then she had like the private recordings of these things. And, um, she would interview somebody in this state. And then she would interview somebody in a different state, somebody completely different. And they will talk about what that person left out. So it was very convincing, but she thought she was talking to something that was good. Yet she was channeling the same force, the evil force. Mm-hmm. And the penny dropped in later on when we found out that they told her that she would live until a certain age or whatever.

And she didn't. She actually died quite tragically. Mm-hmm. And I was just like, oh wow, they were just playing with this poor lady. Mm-hmm. The whole time. Yeah. It was very sad. But I would say we were seeking a lot, especially because my husband's sister was very sick at the same time and we wanted to help her. We thought this would help her and didn't. Mm-hmm.

So yeah, there was, there was a hard time. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think humans are, have this, um, drive to try to understand things or to cling to something that will give them hope. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I'm guessing you can, you, you, you and your husband would have been able to very much relate to this. Mm-hmm. And during that time. Yeah. Looking for something. Oh yeah. We want, because we wanted something good. We were just so, at that stage, I was just really tired of the whole, the things that I used to like.

The ugly and the, like, then in this poor sister passed away. And then I've seen the real face of death. And that it's not so glamorous and so beautiful. Um, it's actually really horrible. And that made me feel like, you know, I'm not immortal. Mm-hmm.

And she was very young. And look at me. I thought that it's just old people that get sick and die, you know? Mm-hmm. That was very, that impacted me really deeply. Mm-hmm. And that made me want, not just, I, I just started to dislike everything about it. And I just wanted something nicer, something better.

But again, we were still quite blind at that stage because, yeah, that's after that when we were with, and it's my husband's mom for a little while just to support her. Mm-hmm. And that's when the, the paranormal started happening in the house. Mm-hmm. When we were, and I was there. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. Yeah. Like what, like what, what was that like? Because, okay, so in, in America, you know, in Hollywood, they like to make movies about these things and, oh, the paranormal, the ghosts, the this, the that. Yeah. And on a, on one level, it's marketed as entertainment, right? It's just entertainment. But on another level, for a whole, for another group of people, it's not.

This is real for them. Yeah. And it's pretty easy to just be like, okay, that's just kind of Hollywood trying to make money or whatever. But there is an element to this that I think we can say is very real. I mean, yeah, like from what you all experienced. Yeah. Um, but yeah, if you want to describe that for us. Well, you see, I knew that the, and there was mentioning a, when he was even, when he was younger or when they were just living there, things would be happening to them. And I was like, okay, at the time I was like, oh, that's kind of cool, you know? Mm-hmm. As silly as I was, because I couldn't understand the whole, like, couldn't imagine it and didn't happen to me.

Mm-hmm. But I don't think I even experienced anything when I was in Slovakia. Mm-hmm. So it was pretty new to me. Like I knew these things happened, but I didn't quite see it in real life. And so, yeah, there were a few instances, like I remember, mm-hmm, like the knocking on the window, like when we were just, just chilling out in this room and next thing it was dark. And I think his mom went somewhere and we just heard this real three knocks on the window. And it was a split second. He opened the window. There was nobody there. There was nothing outside. So that was quite scary. Uh, we couldn't understand it because we knew that demonic always does things in trees.

So the three knocks was just like, okay. Next thing, we had a kitten at the time as well. We clearly see a kitten climbing up on the bed, just like the, how the claws are just trying to get up. And then I look across the room and the kitten sleeping in the bed, its own bed, fast asleep away from the bed. So there was like, okay.

Whoa. And it's still, you can know, I still kind of like, you know, I wasn't too scared about it, but I started to be kind of curious in a way. Um, then in this uncle's picture that he passed away, it was turned to the wall. And no one turned it around. And his mom was very upset about that. Hanging on the wall? No, it was, it was on season, but it was just me and, and, and his mom. And no one touched the picture. And it got, and it turned itself, it was turned around to the wall, facing the wall. And she was very upset about it. I was like, I would not dare to do that, you know?

That's very disrespectful. And then another instance was I heard and his mom calling him, and he just would not go. So I just went to like, why aren't you going? I'm like, your mom is calling you. And he said, she's not at home.

And at that point I was like, okay, well, there's something going on in here. Yeah. And you all both heard that? No, I just, you just, you I heard it. And I came to Enda and I said, why aren't you going? Like, she's waiting for you. Oh, oh my. Okay. So they got listened to. That must have been terrifying when you realize, wait, she's not even in the house. Yeah, she wasn't in the house. So somehow we then started to be, instead of like not being in the house, we started to get interested in the whole paranormal thing. Mm-hmm. And I know there were different apps on the phone that you could download and like, you know, ghost boxes and just this.

Isn't it like, like ghost hunting and some of these things? Like it's actually a thing. Like I thought it was a joke and then I started looking it up. I was like, no, people take this very seriously. They do. Oh, you can get all sorts of equipment for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, in my naivete, I just kind of assumed, oh yeah, I mean, nobody takes this seriously, but yeah, oh no, ghost hunting and all the equipment that comes with it is very much a real thing, which is terrifying. And yeah, but some people just get some sort of, uh, how would I say, not enjoyment, but it's like an adventure. It's kind of like curiosity and like, yeah, there's this kind of, but even you said like before you went and experienced it yourself, you're like, oh, okay, like it didn't really, it didn't play.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As, as something, wait, this is actually horrifying and not okay. Because you might think that it maybe it's just ghosts and they may want to say something, you know, because I knew there were demons, but I thought demons were different. I thought demons do worse things than just knock on windows, you know, like, yeah, yeah. Now, now you, you would have known there's demons. Like why is that from your experience going to church, right? Early on. Yeah, church or, or the music or something like that. Okay. Okay. But you didn't put the two together that, hey, may perhaps the demonic element is behind these things with the New Age stuff you're involved in and the, and so forth.

The connection hadn't been made yet for you at this point. No, I didn't think that at all. Hmm. I thought there was, that's an, that's a, that's, I think a very important piece, I think, because I know there'd been plenty of times in my life where I just thought, oh, anybody involved in this stuff must clearly know that they're involved with dark forces. And I've been hearing more and more. No, it's actually deceived. Like, yeah, it's deception. Yeah.

Um, again, when I was interviewing your husband, he was saying, we, we were trying to, we thought we were trying to do good things. Yeah. And we were completely off, you know, I mean, we were very deceived, you know, just, just, you know, clearly had it wrong. Um, but at the time it felt like we were trying to do what was right, you know? Exactly.

Wow, wild. Yeah. No, I think that that these are really important pieces because it's so easy to, um, misunderstand these things or maybe not take them seriously or whatever the case may be. Yeah. Um, so with the paranormal, um, situation, like the, yeah, that must have, did that have a pretty big effect on your worldview and, and how you thought about these things? Yeah, because it introduced me and was like, oh wow, spiritual world is true, is real. Mm-hmm. I still didn't think of God or heaven or, or hell, but it just opened the possibility of, of life after death, you know, that there, there, there's more to life. Like it just made it, did it, I believed, like I just had an idea of it, but now I believe that there is, like when you die, you, you, you are still going to live.

Hmm. So we were then going into deeper into the paranormal because I don't know why we're so curious. Um, but yeah, we watched hundreds and hundreds of them and, um, then we started to see a pattern in how these things operate, how they just subtly start with just making people argue or, um, you know, sometimes paranormal things or, or, or demonic forces don't just necessarily move stuff. They usually work on your emotions and they separate people. And, uh, yeah, so we started to see different patterns and then different ways of how people were dealing with these things, how they were trying to get rid of them. So our mission was to get rid of it.

And so, um, we started to see that, like these people that were smudging the place a bit sage and things like that, the things always came back. Mm-hmm. So we abandoned that idea straight away. And then, and then this man, he was, he was like a self-proclaimed exorcist, but he was a man, like he believes in God, you know, we know him, we know him.

He started ordering these things in the name of Christ. And I was like, that's very interesting because knew it Jesus was in the New Age, but he was just like an ascended master, you know? Oh, so like not divine in the sense that Christians would say he is and so forth. Yeah, he would be divine, but more with the knowledge that he had rather than him being the savior of the world. Okay. That's a critical difference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hmm. And then we were like, well, why aren't they, why aren't they saying like in the name of Buddha or, or, or, or somebody else? That's a good point. It has never come up in any of those videos that we were watching.

There was nobody, there was call, they were either doing this shamanic stuff or, or they were using Jesus, but nothing else, like at least what we have seen, there was nothing else. Hmm. So, but the name of Christ was working, you know, and so I was like, wow, that's, that's very interesting. And at the time, uh, we had this friend that used to work with us and he was the, or his Jehovah's Witness. And, um, you know, he kept telling him that, you know, these are demons, you know?

And we were like, yeah, okay, they're ghosts, they're not demons. And, you know, and then so, and there was on a mission to prove him or to that he, he started reading the Bible.

And, um, then he got interested in Christ more and more. Hmm. Oh, so was he, was he started reading the Bible to, oh, I want to prove this, this person wrong? Well, not necessarily that wrong, but I just want to learn more and, yeah, to have a debate because he, he loved to debate, you know, that friend in particular. So, and they wanted to be ready for him. So the more he wanted to debate, the more I ended up reading the Bible. Wow. Oh, that's incredible. Yeah. What a, what a, um, hey, it gets you reading the Bible. That was, that's amazing. Yeah. You know, that's amazing. Yeah. So, you know, it said every knee will bow in the name of Christ and it did.

Mm-hmm. And we, and then, um, we heard that the paranormal activity came back to Enda's mom's house again and she was experiencing things. And so we said to her, well, you know, maybe you can say to it to live in the name of Christ. Mm-hmm. We just say, say, go in the name of Jesus and really believe it.

Um, and so she said, okay. And then one night she rang us and she said, now I, I don't know the story, but she did see like a, a figure, hmm, appearing from underneath her blanket or something. And then she's seen this hand point towards her or going towards her. Wow. And, uh, she was so scared she couldn't speak.

And, um, but she remembered what Enda had said to her. Mm-hmm. And, um, she did say eventually for it to go away in the name of Christ. And she said it just went like, like that. Was she, she wasn't a Christian? No. At the time, she wasn't a Christian, but she believed in the power that God can do it. It's almost like, do you believe that I can do this? You know? Yeah. Oh, that is, that is amazing. It's incredible. And at that point I was like, wow, Christ is real, you know, God is real. And it was like, oh, we need to go to church. We have to find church. And we were just so shocked that that's where the Christian journey for us started.

That is kind of phenomenal to me that the paranormal or whatever you want to call it and its response to the name of Jesus is really a significant part of you. You all start in your journey to Christianity. Yeah. Whoa. That's not the normal path people take to Christianity.

But it connected with you. I'm getting a sense it connected with you and your husband because you had been in this world before. This probably was really stuck out to you as, well, we've never seen this before. No. And it was just so incredible, especially the way I believed her when she told me to start because then you, you know, why would she leave? Why would she lie? Yeah. She, yeah, like I have experienced it myself. I know well. And at the time she was in such a bad place that I think that it was manifesting in a bad way.

So it, it confirmed her, like it converted her too. Really? So she became a Christian then? Yeah. But we were very, how would I say? Wow, amazing. Like we were Christians, but we, we still were like at the very, very, very, very beginning. So we still were in our old ways. Well, I was, um, I, I don't think I was reading the Bible at the time much. I just know I got inspired by my husband reading it. Hmm. And so we were kind of going on that journey together. And then after this we found a church and because we wanted to learn more about the faith, but I didn't want to go back to the Catholic church.

So any church would do at that stage. And it was a very charismatic church too. So it really helped me to build that relationship with God and Christ. But then, uh, we were learning more about the Bible and then we've seen the heretical teachings of that particular church that we were in, involved with.

So that was disappointing. There was like this whole Christian world that opened up with all these different denominations that we just were so, we were lost. Oh, that must have been incredibly confusing. Very confusing. Because neither you or your husband had interaction really with Christianity to this point. I mean, not, not to a meaningful level at least. Yeah. So you're coming in with having read the Bible and some of the things that a Jehovah's Witness told you and that's in a little bit of Catholic background. Yeah. So you don't have much teaching or context, I guess I should say, for Christianity to begin with. Yeah. But my husband, that must have been hard. Yeah, it was.

But my husband has such a great ability to research. Yeah. That, um, he had, yeah, he could, he could discuss with this friend for hours why what he believes in some certain things is not the way the Bible says it, you know, because the Jehovah's Witnesses have their own Bible and then there's the other Bible. Oh, I bet those were some interesting conversations. They were very long ones too.

But you know, it was good for something. Like it was, it definitely helped us in our, our, our Christian journey. And then we had the problems with this church that we were part of. Yeah. We were learning, we were still learning, we were still looking for answers. Mm-hmm. It was very difficult in that church for us. Well, because, because then that, that must have started you on a journey of, okay, you've, you've read the scriptures, you've become convinced that it's true, you're starting to follow Christ now. Like you said, you're in the very, very beginning steps, you know, of that journey. Um, and now you have a pretty, uh, complicated process of, okay, what does church look like?

Yeah. For, for you. Um, I can't even imagine what that would be like coming in with, with so little context about Christianity. You would have so much to learn. That must have been quite the process. It was a lot, yeah, it was. Like the church where we were part of, it was still kind of bells and whistles, like in the, in a way that you still felt like the, it was like from going from the New Age and on all the, the wonders and the, and the paranormal and everything where you could kind of see and hear and touch and, you know, it was, it was very similar into that charismatic church too, you know, people were speaking in tongues and there was music.

Oh, and people were spontaneously laughing and it was, you know, but it was not in their eyes that that was, that was God. There was the Holy Spirit. There was the opposite. But I started feeling like, well, I don't feel that way. I don't feel like bursting out laughing or speaking in tongues or am I not believing enough? You know, if I did, I, I started just feeling that way. It's like I just couldn't feel what those people were feeling. Ooh, and that, that must have been disorienting. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was. And so I was kind of like, how would I say, I just said to God, like, oh, like how do, how do Christians live?

Mm-hmm. Like I know there's Muslims and they have their communities and they have their different clothes and they have their culture, they had their faith, but they're, they're living it all the time. It all cohere and I feel good for the Sunday and I'll come home back to my own bed and my life, you know? Yeah. And I wanted something more. I wanted to live it every day because it just felt right. Mm-hmm. And at that time, it's like God takes the, the darkness out of your eyes and, uh, you want him more and more and you don't find, you, you, you, you love, I used to hate color, like I wasn't for sparing black and stuff.

And it just, I started to enjoy things. I loved flowers and everything lovely and colorful. And I just wanted to be in that. And it wasn't when I came back home from church. Like we had no community. Those people just went back to their own work. And yeah, we then had a very complicated relationship with the pastors and the people in there. The more we knew and the more we were questioning. So I was asking God about how to Christian live. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I've seen people head covering.

Then when I was trying to figure it out, I think I stumbled across one lady and she said she was a Christian and she was head covering. Where? I was on YouTube. I don't do no tiny, no sounds like rain. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, that lady. Really? Okay. So just searching on the internet and you just find things. Yeah. So I was like, oh, that is interesting. Well, then I looked at their vlogs. They were a Christian family. They had their community. They talked about God all the time. Mm-hmm. They had lovely music or whatever.