I Grew Up in the North Korea of Europe - Saimir Braho

Had you ever even seen a Bible, for example? No. No. Bible was like a, a magic book. Mm. Within one day, oh, we are now democratic. One day, just boom. Just boom, you know? Well. And then every one of us at that time was thinking, uh, that within two or three years, we'll be like Switzerland. Because now it said, okay, the problem was just communism. Now the communism is not anymore. Everything will be great.

I said, "God, if you are there, please do something for me because I am losing my soul, my life, everything. I don't know what I will do." When I heard about, uh, the cross, the work on the cross and why he did that, I said two things. Such love no one can have than God, other than God.

And the one that did this must be only God and no one else.

So, Samir, I've been wanting to do this interview for a long time. I remember seeing a YouTube comment come across on one of our videos or something from someone who said they were from Albania. And I didn't know much about Albania, and so I had to look it up on the map. Turns out there's, that's quite the place, and you have quite the story. And here we are a number of years later, and we want to get that story today.

So tell me about yourself. Where did you grow up? What was childhood like? And you're from Albania still to this day, which is really neat. We're able to meet here in Switzerland, actually, uh, to do this interview. Um, so yeah, let's start with that. Tell me about yourself. Well, Albania, for most of the people, is an unknown country, or I should say it was unknown before the, uh, the war in Kosovo in the late '90s.

It's a small country. That's why probably. Or because it's, it has always been between two, uh, historically between two civilizations, West civilization and East civilization. It is situated, uh, just 70 kilometers by sea from Italy and in north of Greece.

It's a small country with, uh, history, I think because of, uh, its position geographically. Uh, it has been always, uh, under the influence of the some, you know, great empires. Mm-hmm. Yeah, during the centuries. So I was born and raised in Tirana, in capital of Albania, at the time where Albanians were governed by a communist state. Mm-hmm. In 1974. And very nice, uh, childhood for me. And even for, we remember, people from my generation, we remember as a, as a very golden time, if I can say, if I can say it like this, because we didn't know what was going on with adults, but, um, we were safe. We were, um, playing on the streets.

We had so little to play with. Mm-hmm. And, uh, uh, our happiness could just, you know, could start, uh, with just only one little thing more. Mm-hmm. So that was, uh, that's how I remember that time. Um, although our parents were in working, you know, normal work, eight hours a day. Uh, families, uh, neighbors, uh, even, um, I mean, uh, state institutions would care of the children of that time. So it was very good. It was very, we remember that as a, as a wonderful time until we entered in our, uh, teen age. Mm-hmm. And that started to look differently.

So I was doing some research after I met you for the first time a couple of years ago, met you on a different trip, and I was looking into Albania. It has been called by some historians the North Korea of Europe. Mm-hmm. It was considered the most strict of all the communist countries. Yeah.

Especially as you get older and you start realizing what that's like. Yeah. What, what was, tell me a bit of what that was like, living in such a strict environment, a communist environment. Obviously, religion would have been very minimal, I'm, I'm assuming. And yeah, tell me more of, of that.

First of all, you, um, you should get up in the morning, eight as a, as a teenager, at three o'clock in the morning. Three? Yes. Oh my. Okay. And go to the, um, I'm talking about the '80s, Mm-hmm. 1980s.

Uh, you, you had to go to the shop and to place there, uh, an empty bottle or stone or whatever as a sign of your place in the row. Because at 6:30 in the morning or 7:00, the milk would come. Mm-hmm. And everybody was fighting for a bottle of milk.

So then you start to realize something. This was, you know, from a, a personal or everyday experience of a teenager. But, uh, then you, um, then you get the information that in the border, there's an electric fence and nobody could go out and nobody could come in. Literally an electric fence.

So, um, then you, uh, they would tell you that, uh, and they will raise you in through education systems that you must be true, you must be, you know, with a high standard of character. But then when you tell the truth, uh, your people in your family will, will shut you down. They'll say, "Hey, what are you doing? Don't tell this anymore to anyone." So you realize that there is a oppressive, big, powerful beast, uh, which is state. And then, uh, and then there's hypocrisy all over. Mm-hmm. In the population. You start to realize that, you know, uh, after you, uh, come out from the childhood. So it was like, you know, people just mentioning the name of God, just mentioning that could go in jail.

Really? Yes. Yeah. So people were spying each other all the time. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, brothers would spy each other. Um, marriage, uh, in, uh, couples in, uh, marriage couples would not have, uh, faith, would not share the most, uh, inner thoughts they had. Mm-hmm. It was a deep personalized, uh, deep personalized, uh, process. Mm-hmm. Of, uh, by the, by the state.

Was it almost like you lived in a constant state of fear then? If I don't say the wrong thing. What, as an adult, all the time. Yeah. All the time. Mm-hmm. I had the, the privilege, I don't know how, but, uh, it happened, but, uh, it happened that I was in a class at the area, uh, close to my school, in my elementary school.

Uh, my school was at the area where were closed the, what is called the block area, which was the, the area where these leaders of the party lived, including the dictator, our dictator, Enver Hoxha. So it happened that they brought their children in a public school. That's what they used to do. So, uh, I had the niece of the dictator in my class.

And she, um, she, uh, every spring she had her birthday and she invited, uh, uh, classmates. I was included, although I was a son of a workers, which was not usual, but because I had some, you know, I was kind of a leader of, of boys there. So they, uh, she invited me. And so every year for some years, I, uh, had the opportunity to go at the house of the dictator. So no way. Yes. That's incredible. Yeah. Sorry, what was the dictator's name? Enver Hoxha. Hoxha was his name. Okay. Yeah. So, um, wow. Yeah. So it was 1988, I think. And he was already dead, but he was succeeded by another one. But his family was, was very, very strong.

His wife was still, you know. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I was, I remember I was, I, I had a cassette at the time. That's how we, uh, listen, uh, music at that time. It was called cassette. I had a cassette and I wanted to bring it to this party. Mm-hmm. And, uh, my father was angry and he didn't tell me why. He, he later he told me he was afraid that, uh, they will accuse him if something would happen there that, oh, this cassette, you got who breathed the brother this. So he forbidden me to the cassette. And I remember going on the road to the block area where the house of the dictator was. It was with, you know, guarded with soldiers.

And, and there I saw before going there, uh, in a, in a soccer field, there were two young, uh, guys listening to radio. I think they were a little bit drunk because they did it openly and they were, they, uh, were listening, um, Western music. Mm-hmm. And then out of nowhere, some, um, some people from the, the, the buildings around, um, they were running. I saw that they were running toward these guys to catch them and started to beat them. And then I realized that they, they before that, they called the police. So two or three, you know, police cars came and took them like they were really, you know, bad criminals. And it was a, you know, a manifestation of the, of the strictness of that, uh, wow of the, of the state.

And I was entering, I saw this, this scene while I was walking toward there. And when I entered in the house of the dictator in the big room, you know, it was like, uh, a great palace for us. I was a little bit late because I was watching the scene there. And then when I entered there, it was, I mean, my friends were dancing, hard rock music, heavy metal music, music of the, of, of just of that year. Mm-hmm. Which was, uh, uh, recorded and published in, in, in West. So I said, hmm, something is wrong here.

These guys are beaten on the street, but here in the house of the dictator, you know, they're doing, you know, party with hard rock and heavy metal music. And I, okay, I thought just that. And then I started to have a party with them, but I remember that as a teenager saying, oh, something is wrong here.

That is incredibly ironic. Yes, it is. And that's, that's what's so confusing to me about Albania. You know, I read the history of that country and the environment you grew up in. And it just, it feels so bizarre, like terribly bizarre. I think you told me this on when we had a phone call before this interview, that Albania is the only country ever in their constitution to say we will be atheist or we are an atheist country. Do you elaborate on that? I don't know another country who officially defines one. Yeah, it's maybe someone can fact check us on it. Even North Korea, they're not. Even North Korea. So, but tell me what they did, uh, with that, just so people understand the context here.

Well, in, um, as soon as the, um, the Second World War ended, uh, the Albanian communists were held by Yugoslavian communists at that time and Russian communists and to, to come into power. And, you know, the big, uh, guys decided, you know, uh, Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt, they decided that Albania would, uh, be a part of the Eastern side of, uh, Iron Curtain. So at the beginning, uh, they allowed religion in Albania, Mm-hmm, uh, because it was so cultural.

It was so nominal. It was a folkloric religion. It has always been like this in Albania because, uh, you know, I said in the midst of the two civilizations, and I think nobody, you know, cares about that village in the border, you know. And, uh, but that's how we survived. I think we developed a, uh, which is a bad thing and a good thing for us. At the same time, we developed a, a habit of adaptation, of being adapted, you know, to anyone who is in, who is, uh, in power and who wants to come and exercise that power. Okay, let's do it. So we had in North, uh, Catholics, Catholic population in the, in the mid cities and areas.

We have, uh, Islam and we have Muslims, I mean, predominantly. And on the South, we have Christian Eastern Orthodox. And we have also, uh, a big group. I mean, I'm talking about 2 million people. It's very, very, very few people compared to other countries. And, but in the, um, there is also, uh, a great population with another religion, which is an order of, of Islam. It's called Bektashi. So when they came, because it was just nominal, communism could, oh, come, could go easily and didn't find any resistance. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, many people say it was a national, it was a patriotism, but I think, uh, differently. Mm-hmm. So they, they had a not, not a problem with that.

But they, in the beginning, they persecuted a priest, Catholic priests, um, because they were somehow involved in, before in politics, there were, uh, most of the intellectuals and, uh, uh, people who were, you know, teachers and, uh, they had a lot of, um, influence on the South, on the northern part of Albania. So they killed them in the beginning. They persecuted, you know, Catholic priests and monks that were, uh, that were there. But after that, they, uh, in '67, they, um, decided to erase religion from at all, wipe out any kind of religion from Albania.

Politically, in, in, in, uh, uh, uh, political context, because it has always been a small country, they, uh, were helped in the beginning by Yugoslavs, then they broke with them and then by, by Russians, and then we broke with them and they ended up being helped by Chinese, China, Chinese Communist Party so far. So, um, so what, how we show our, you know, loyalty to the Chinese party, let's do a, a cultural revolution. So what should we do about cultural revolution? Oh, we have religion and the communist atheist ideology doesn't, uh, wow, it's, it's, it's, it's against religion. His country is opposite to religion. So let's show our loyalty to Chinese people by erasing religion.

That's kind of, that's like weird and bizarre. I mean, that's terrifying, actually. Yeah. So how we're talking a very anti-God environment. Yeah. Here. And so what did they do then? You're, you're, when you're talking about they were killing Christians or persecuting Christians, um, you're saying in 1967 and on, you know, how siding with China, what did they do to have this cultural revolution? It sounds so communist to call it that, I guess. I mean, that sounds like something that you would call it a cultural revolution. In reality, it's like eradicating, you know, religion essentially. Just for the sake of, you know, uh, uh, to look good to the others, to the others who are on, wow, far east, um, because they were feeding us, you know, at the time.

You know, I was reading about that a little bit. There was a lot of food imports coming because Albania was, was in a bad condition and they needed to do the food. And never succeeded to that, you know, although, uh, after we broke with Chinese, they, they said, oh, we will provide for ourselves, you know, but they never, and it was not for technical reasons. But, um, yes, they did like all politicians do, you know, they said, I'm not the hand who will do that. So they, uh, there were some young, uh, guys, boys and girls that, uh, had this idea, a revolutionary idea that religion, uh, belongs to past. And it's a, okay, it's, it's something, you know, it's not for the, the, the modern life and the progress that we're, uh, living in, and especially for, uh, communist ideology.

Mm-hmm. We are looking forward to, um, we're looking to the future, right? Future, we're looking religion because it's in the past. We're looking to a topian, uh, uh, society. So religion is a, is a, is a stumble block. So let's, let's get rid of that.

And, uh, they started to, you know, talk and raise their voice and ask the state to do something about this. They even, by their own initiative, went to the churches and, you know, uh, uh, put down the buildings. And then after that, what can we do? It's a, it's a communist revolution. It's part of a communist revolution. So let's eradicate everything, even, you know, mentioning the name of God. So it was a, it was a society run by, you know, police.

Hmm. Uh, like a police state. Police state. It was not, uh, it was not at all the country, you know. See, this is, this is so interesting because even, even in your most strict other communist countries, you know, Soviet Union, the, uh, North Korea, even today would still say, oh, well, you know, well, we'll let one Catholic church be open over here just so, well, we, you know, we're not to make it look good. Oh, we don't, we're not persecuting, quote unquote, we're not persecuting the Christians, which obviously they are, but Albania, it wasn't even trying to be subtle at this point. They're just like, this is just, there are no options for religion here.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know, even in North Korea, I know there are churches there. Yeah. Run by communists. If you go on Google Maps, you can even find them. They've been pinned and stuff. And there's some friends there, they have been there. They say you go there and you understand they are actors, you know, there are some men and women actors, you know, head covering even in Catholic or Protestant or, and the preacher is a communist guy. But so it's so interesting because it's all, it's all an act, but yet what are they trying to prove? I guess it's trying to say, oh, well, we're not that anti-religion, whereas your country at that point was saying, we're not even trying to hide this.

We're, we're just going to eradicate this completely. Yes. It was, um, it was for the sake of, you know, and, and it could do that, our dictator, he could do that, you know, with this, uh, what at the, at the state of the, the country that that was at that time, you know, historically coming from, you know, this adaptation all the time, you know, I think anyone could do. Unfortunately, I'm not glad to say that. I'm not happy to say that, but they could do that. And yeah, and then they succeeded. They succeeded. They raised a generation of atheists. Hmm. Well, I think, uh, now it was not a really bad thing because they wiped out all false religion.

So, wow. The, and the, yeah, because we had, this isn't just they're targeting Christianity. They're targeting all religion. Yes. Anything. Anything that, uh, that relates to God or to, you know, spirituality, anything, anything. And that, that was a very, for me, it was an advantage, a missed advantage in early nineties. Hmm. Uh, and, uh, but, uh, it was an advantage, you know, in them. And now we have a, a generation of my father, for example, of my parents, they are atheists. Hmm. They, uh, but immediately after the communism fell, the next day they were ashamed to say they are atheists.

Oh, because it's related to communism. Oh, okay. Okay. I see. See, so if you're talking living in a police state, eradicating all religion, you mentioned how if you even said the name of God or talked about it, that would be a huge problem. You could go to jail. Yes. It's very aggressive. I guess someone would report you to the police. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Spying was a, yeah, a part of the culture. And, and I was also looking this up too, like you talk about how the whole country is surrounded by electric fence. Well, you have the ocean on one side, but then you had electric fence on the land borders, a heavily fortified border.

And I found very few cases where people were able to escape through that wall. Is that true? Or maybe I want to make sure I'm getting that right. But whereas the Berlin wall, a lot more people were able to get through behind the curtain. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Comparing to that. Compared. Yeah. Yeah. It's this, that's, uh, yeah. People were, many people were killed on the border. Very few people succeeded. Did you ever know of anybody that tried to escape? Oh, yes. I, I know some people, uh, a teacher, and they, uh, teacher in elementary school, and he, he, uh, pretended to go for, you know, uh, excursion, uh, in the area, but he was close to the border and he, um, and he escaped.

It was in late eighties, uh, before it was more difficult, but they were afraid also that when they would go, some of them, they were unfortunately brought back from Yugoslavia or from Greece, I think. So, um, a human being has the, um, the ability, and it's fascinating how there's the ability to, you know, to convince, uh, himself that you can live like this. Hmm. You're going to, and you can find, it's, it's fascinating, fascinating for me. Uh, people, uh, found joy in everyday life, found some things to enjoy in everyday life. They were laughing, you know, I remember my, my, my family, my cousins, they were laughing. They were, um, um, enjoying some very, very few things that they had.

They were enjoying, you know, relationships, although it was very dangerous within your family, you know, or within your, uh, uh, relatives to talk about these things. What was prohibited, but still they found some, it makes me think of today, you know, how, uh, much complaint is of not having enough in order to be happy or to enjoy things or to laugh or to stay with people. And it really, uh, uh, when I think of that time, I say, oh, are humans the same or not?

I mean, you're describing getting up at three o'clock in the morning to get a in the queue to get milk for the day. And you go there and you, you know, have fun with your, you're on the one side, like I said, on the one side, you, you, you understand something is wrong, but then you say, hey, you accept that. How, how, yeah, how able is a human being to accept things, you know, good at that, you know, things. Humans are very adaptable. Yeah, I'm very adaptable, you know, which is, it can be a good thing and a bad thing. You know, I think you told me though on the phone as an example how someone had went on a trip out of Albania, like on a visa or whatever, and had brought like a Coca-Cola back or something.

I think, was it a Coca-Cola? Oh, it was like found today. Yeah. And, and how that was so significant to have something like that because you just did not have that. That, you know, that is a, that's another, you know, sad side of this story, you know, when, um, uh, you, we remember, I remember myself or I remember, you know, my people, uh, whom they would put, you know, just a little thing that was coming from outside. There were some drivers, I mean, of the big trucks, oh, bringing things. And they were the lucky ones for us because they could buy, uh, a, a, a pair of jeans, you know, or, uh, they could, they would bring soap, just a soap from outside from the west or a can of Coke or, and, uh, they would go to the other relatives and give them as a gift.

And it was a great honor. Wow. And they, they would put them on the, there on the furniture for decoration of the house. Hmm. So that also developed a hunger for just a little bit things from outside. As in there's a world out there. Yes. And we can't access it. Yes. We, it was a prison. It was a big prison. I was reading a historian that had been done a lot of work in Albania and he, I think he used a phrase something along the lines of Albania was a, a giant prison state. Yes. Or, or one of the truest examples of a actual prison state. Yeah. Um, how, yeah, just how strict it was.

Yes. But it was interesting. The tourists that came, I mean, they remember, they said it was so beautiful. It was so quiet. It was so, I mean, I have, uh, it reminds me also of North Korea. I have friends that they have been there. They say it was, no, it's not like they, they say it is. It's, it's, it's quiet. People are smiling. People are working. People are enjoying life. No, it's not like they say, wow.

Oh, you, it's, it's, it's because of the ability of the human being to act. Oh, that's all, you know. Well, and also it being quiet, you know, and not having a lot of traffic noise is probably because people didn't own cars either, you know, being, yeah. Did, did they have, did you all have vehicles? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, just bicycles and really that's all. We're not allowed, you know, just you weren't allowed to own a vehicle. No, no, no, no, no. We were not allowed. Why not? We're not allowed. Well, that was something that it's, uh, something that would, it's coming from the, the, the, the Western type of life.

Okay. Uh, we didn't own also our houses. You didn't own a house. There was an, uh, this was the ideology. So everything belongs to everyone, but it's running by the state. Okay. So there's a classic Karl Marx, right? Where he writes in the Communist Manifesto, eradication of all private property, essentially. And that's what you had. Yes. Yes. Even, even we, the, the apartments became, uh, we became owners of our apartments after communists of hell.

So if, so theoretically they could tell you to move and you had to move from your apartment if you didn't own it. They would come and even didn't tell you, you know, the, the, the truck would come and say, hey, load your things. And then especially for the, the, um, the ones that were, uh, brought for political reasons to, oh, okay, other areas. Did that ever happen to you? No, no. Where you had to move? No, no, no, no. It was not that. That was not common. That was not common. But they could, you know, do that and you could. That is wild. See, obviously I'm from America. So like this is completely alien to think of not owning the house I live in, which is so hard to even get my head to understand that.

Yeah. When they came in power, you had a two-store, uh, uh, building or two house, uh, and then would just come and say, hey, you, there are these four family, other families that would live with you. Wow. So you go to this room and the other will live here. Hmm. So that's what they did. That's so different. That's, that's hard to. And the name of the people. Yeah.

Yeah. Isn't that always what it was, right? Like this is the, yeah, yeah, it's such a, such a bizarre mixture that lasted for so long with such a level of intensity of, of like you're saying, spying and policing and, you know, you cannot leave. One generation. Yeah. Entire generation. So you are raised in this and you're in a place that's pretty systematically eradicated religion. Did you have any concept of Christianity, God, Jesus? Like did that mean anything to you growing up in those years up until communism fell? Talk to me about that. No, when I was raised, um, I was raised as a, with a, with a, with a atheistic ideology. Mm-hmm. Everything happened because of evolution.

Um, but now we are lucky. We've been lucky to someone, um, it came to his mind, the, these are communist ideologies. So now we found the, the path, the right path for the humanity. So let's move ahead. Let's do everything in order to achieve that goal.

So, um, that was until, I mean, mid eighties, but then becoming a teenager, this thing changed.

And, um, Christianity became something that was connected with the West. So you, you had heard of it and things. Yes, but you just didn't know anything about it. No, no, no. There was not the gospel preaching. There were some, I mean, there were, uh, there were some, uh, attempts by some people from outside that were coming as tourists and they were trying to leave like, you know, a, a, a pamphlet here or there or even, uh, throw, uh, Bibles, uh, in, in plastic sackets, uh, uh, on the sea, you know, to travel, you know, to the coast. Did they work? Like, was they successful? Uh, I, I heard some stories that, okay, it worked. Some people had that.

Uh, some people in Albania, um, they kept their religion, their religion, uh, uh, idly, but, uh, still it became more a mystical thing than it was a, a religion, you know. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it, it mixed with, uh, the superstitious, you know, folkloric things. Mm-hmm. So, uh, it was, we didn't have any clear understanding of, well, this religion says this, this religion says that, and not at all. It was mixed. Christianity was mixed with, um, uh, Western world and Islam was mixed with Turkey. Oh, okay. And that's all. Yeah. Because Turk, Turkish Ottoman Empire, you know, invaded Albania for 500 years. Whoa. And so we, that's why we had a lot in common with them.

Yeah. So that was the, the idea. But it's not like you had ever, had, had you ever even seen a Bible, for example? No, no, no. Bible was like a, a magic book. Hmm. You know, for the, it was a mystery, you know, just mentioning the name of the Bible was, it seemed like it was a book for magicians, you know, that's, that, that's how I, and my, I still, my friends, you know, they were, when they were talking about, they have a, um, angel, you know, they have, Mm-hmm. It was interesting because we had the, uh, because we, we are an ancient, you know, population. Mm-hmm. And we had a lot of history. And then some of the artifacts in our history talk about Christianity and communists didn't, they, they needed that to, to, to, to, to prove that we are, we are a very ancient nation.

Uh, because otherwise they would, uh, yeah, okay. Uh, you Serbs or Yugoslavians or Russians, they will just, and also a part of the, this international ideology of communism, uh, uh, paradoxically was also the nationalism, you know, so they, they, they, they try to interesting raise this feeling of nationalism in order to gather people around, right? You know, we are doing this for the nation. So because of that, they kept safe these artifacts, but they were New Testament, for example, all of the, uh, um, I don't know, 11th century or I don't know, you know, maybe I'm wrong, but that's, that's kind of bizarre, but, but I guess they let that slide because like, oh, well, that's the history of Albania, but like, if you were to go get a New Testament and try to read it, that would be a real problem.

Oh, no problem. It would be the end of your life. And your family, not only your life. Really? Yes. So let's, okay, so let's say, let's say somehow someone floats a Bible across the ocean in a plastic bag, like you described, whatever, and you, you were to pick it up and read it, you know, and have it, and they were to discover that. You're saying you would lose your life over something probably. You're now an enemy of the state, and you will never, uh, rehabilitate it. You will never be, you know, wow, a normal citizen. Your family, they would, uh, they had to, you know, they had to, uh, um, shun you as a, as a, as a member of their family.

And even if they do that, you they don't know if they will, that will, uh, succeed, if they will, they will be successful. Okay. Because they, because so then they would end up being punished potentially. Yes. For, for that. So it was an, uh, uh, uh, ideology mixed with a, how can I say, tribal, you know, a way of doing things. Yeah. So cultic, I mean, Enver Hoxha was not anymore a leader. He was God.

He knew everything. He, he, he, uh, hit, his works started from how to educate, uh, children in kindergarten to how to, you know, manage, uh, a retirement and how to, you know, um, the industry, how it works, the science, the art. He would, he would talk about everything. And everybody was, uh, it looks like the, uh, the, the dictator in North Korea now. I was going to say, it sounds, it sounds really familiar, right? Where he's kind of like the leader of North Korea right now. Yeah. Kim Jong-un, right? Where it's like, he knows everything and he's, yeah, he's almost venerated as, as God, but yet they're supposed to be like atheists. So it's kind of weird, right?

But I wonder if this is going to humans do kind of want to worship something, right? They're looking for something. And so you're describing them trying to find it in the state or in nationalism or in the dictator or, you know, either, even relationships. They're trying to find meaning through, through these other things. Yeah. Because what else do you have, I guess? Yes. You know? Yes. They, they, uh, in the middle of Tirana is still there now as, um, it was after he died, they built it a pyramid.

It's a, it's a, it's a building that from up you can see it's a, it's a, it's a, it has a shape of the, an eagle, which is, you know, a symbolic, a symbol, a national symbol of Albania. But, uh, when you go down and you see that, you know, it's a pyramid. And there was the pharaoh under that, that pyramid. So that was a museum for him. Oh, and, uh, interesting. Yeah. So, uh, he was worshiped. I think he was worshiped as a, as a, as a God. Of course, there were, there were some people in Albania, I mean, a few people in Albania that they, they understood things and they, but even them, they had to do that, you know, they have to, to act like that.

So it was a false God worship in a false everyday liturgic way, you know? Like it's describing a world where everything is kind of a lie. It's a lie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you get used to that and you, you learn to live with it. Yeah. So pitiful. It's so, so sad, you know?

That's, that's what's in the end. Because, because ultimately a system like that could only last but so long, right? Before the cracks begin to form and the foundation, so to speak. Yeah. It, uh, it has to, it collapsed everywhere. Yeah. So, so which, which that's, I'm, I'm really curious about that because Berlin Wall comes down in '89. Soviet Union dissolves in 1991. Uh, when does communism fall in Albania? It would have been right in that time. 1991. '91. Okay. And it was one of the last countries that, you know, communism fell. And I'm convinced, hmm, of, uh, what happened. Just my, this is my opinion, it's my conviction that the communists, once they, you know, so watch what happened with Ceaușescu, the leader in Romania.

They killed him. Yeah. He was executive leader. Yeah. So they, they decided to lead the democratization process of Albania. So that they wouldn't get punished or killed. Yeah. And they said, okay, let's get, let's do it slowly without any damage, you know, Mm - hmm and not putting Albanians against Albanians. So that's, they formed two parties. Mm - hmm One is, uh, left wing and the other is right wing run by communists.

So they are now, um, promoting for 35 years, uh, the democracy. And, uh, the lie continues in a different way. Okay. Um, with the country that says we're free now, uh, to think. Interesting. We're not a police state anymore. Okay. But, uh, I would describe it as a post-communist, still post-communist, uh, uh, uh, country, you know? There's still elements of that that are still, still there even now then. Yes. I mean, it's, it's not outside. You'd, you'd see, you know, the, oh, this is a, if you come there, it's, this is a Western country, you know, everything is with a, okay, with some influential of Eastern cultural things, you know, elements, but, uh, still there, you know, we are aiming to go in Europe.

Hmm. But with the, with the same mentality, you know, the same, but like, just my opinion. What a weird, I wish I was wrong. Ah, what a, yeah, like to live through that transition from being this incredibly strict communist country to, well, I'm, I'm guessing they took the electric fence down and, you know, it allowed you to have private property again. And yeah, what was that transition phase like? That must have been a strange thing to live through. Yeah. Shocking thing. Yeah. Within one day, oh, we're now, uh, democratic society. One day, just boom. Just boom, you know? And then, um, we changed the laws. And so every one of us at that time was thinking, uh, that within two or three years, we'll be like Switzerland.

If someone would say, no, it's not, we need five or six years, we would, we would laugh at him because now he said, okay, the problem was just communism. Now the communism is not anymore. Everything will be great.

So that's why I, I was a, I was my high school, I, I was watching for some years, the only one channel television that we had, state television. Um, uh, there were musicians playing there, but we were also watching television and we were listening to, started to listen, you know, music from the West. And then, uh, immediately I grabbed the guitar and gathered a band in my high school. And so we performed in 1991 at the first festival. It was, it is, uh, it is still today a national festival. It's a, it's a big one, a big music event in, uh, uh, in, in December, every, every December, every December. So, uh, we went there in 1991 with a, with a, with a, with a song, um, with this title, I Dream.

Hmm. So the lyrics were about, you know, we dream to be far away now from the, the, the, the disappointment or, you know, the pain. And we dream to be like, you know, stars in heaven. So, um, let's continue, uh, this kind of, uh, walk to become a star.

Because my idea was that these stars, music stars, movie stars, uh, politicians and this kind of, so in, in the West, they were, uh, the ones that were representing joy and happiness that lacked in, in our country. So let's become all, if it's possible, movie stars, you know, music stars. Yeah. And let's become, yeah, you know, so that was, and guess what? We won the first prize. Hmm. It was a little bit, uh, strange because we were dressed like Beatles in 1991. Okay.

But the clock of the Albanians with music and then it stopped at that year. Yeah. Yeah. Because, wow. Yeah. So like that must, again, this must have been disorienting to go through this experience. Like I, I can't even imagine. And so, okay, so that happens suddenly, hey, we have some freedom here. At what point does religion come into the scene, both for you and just in society where, hey, it's okay to talk about God now. Hey, here's a Bible and I can read it. Did that happen pretty quickly? Yes. So missionaries flooded Albania from the West. Hmm. And on the streets, you could see, you know, crowds of people, uh, fighting with each other to grab a Bible now.

Really? Yes. Uh, stadiums, you know, with this, uh, evangelistic, you know, events, um, halls everywhere, you know, and churches started to, I mean, Catholic Church, they reestablished Eastern Orthodox, so they reestablished, uh, Muslim community. They, you know, opened, started to open some mosques and, uh, evangelical, I mean, Christians, they came from the West and they, uh, they were, they were amazed with the, uh, uh, the kind of interest Albanian had.

Now we understand that that, that that time was, that was mixed, hmm, with, uh, I mean, spiritual interests. You didn't know, you know, it wasn't, you didn't know now. It was a spiritual interest or just a curiosity or, yeah, a flashy interest about, uh, things that these people represent. They present wealth, they present materialism, they present things that we don't have, that we long for, that we acted all the time in order to have just a piece of that. So now they are coming and they are, they can be the channel of this. So, wow, to have that. Wow. So you could have religion almost being a, um, a carrier for a culture that the Albanians maybe had wanted, you know, coming out of communism, say, we want to be more like the West, capitalism, this, that, whatever.

And religion is just one of the many pieces that will try out. Yes. Well, I don't blame too much missionaries because sure they could, I don't think they could understand at that time, but well, if the North Korean, when North Korean, sorry, will be open, Mm - hmm I, uh, I think I know what will happen.

Probably a problem pretty similar to what you experienced then, right? Yes. Because what, what happens in there is, if I remember correctly, so you, you have Albania gets flooded with missionaries, religion, things like that. But yet if you look at the numbers today, Albania is very few evangelical Christian. Well, um, very, very little. Yes. Uh, it's actually considered by, um, Joshua Project, uh, as part of the 1040 window, as in like one of the most unreached countries, you know, as far as like, they, they don't have the gospel. They're, they're, they're unreached with the gospel, even though maybe they heard, but they just, there aren't believers there. Yes. You know, so it's, it's, it's tragic, you know.

I mean, we're still doing the same thing, you know, uh, being remembered for unique things. Mm - hmm Because, um, I mean, the decline of Christianity in the West as mainstream, I'm talking about mainstream Christianity, there needed some time, you know, some hundred years.

In Albania, the decline of from the what is called a spiritual awakening after the communism fell, Mm - hmm the decline is, is it is within 35 years. It's, it's, it's a very short period of time. Barely made a generation. Didn't even make a generation before it. No, we didn't make the generation. We see the generation, we see the, the, the, the, the children of the young, of the first generation of Christians, they are just, you know, yeah, uh, in a very bad situation.

So where does that put you? Like, where does that put you in this story? So you're, you're living through so many changes. You're coming from a very strict communist setting, no understanding of Christianity, the Bible, God, anything. Yeah. You know, the, the Berlin Wall falls and communism falls and all this happens. Suddenly you're flooded with religion, you know, your Western music, you're starting to, you know, you have a band, all this stuff. Um, where does Christianity come into the picture for you? Like, did, did, were you one of those early ones that said, ah, I want to be a Christian? Or did it take a lot longer for you to come to that point? Yeah.

No, I, I, I, I didn't come to, uh, to faith by just, you know, uh, choosing that was the best life of best offer. Uh, because, um, yeah, my generation, we always say, my friends, we, we, it seems like we live three or four lives, uh, because, because of these radical changes until I found the real life. But, um, yeah, but, uh, but the way I, uh, was caught by, uh, by my Lord was that, uh, through the way, through the, the road of desperation. Because, um, our band became well known and I thought, oh, this is the, this is what I, what should I do all my life? Just, just create a three-minute song.

Mm - hmm And then you'll be, people will love you, people will clap their hands for you and you'll be happy all the time. But immediately the second song and the third song become, started to become more darker and darker and darker because I realized that, um, started to realize even me and as my, my friends, not only me, that Mm - hmm this was a new type of lie, you know, was not, uh, was not something that fulfilled the, the soul and the, and the life of a human being, you know. You see things like, like I said, you know, Mm - hmm communists running, uh, uh, uh, democratization process. Uh, that's ironic. Uh, people, you know, started to fight for now individualism started and people started to fight for very, very little things, you know, killings and, and, and gangs and, uh, all these kind of things.