I Came to Christ. My Hippie Husband Was Indifferent - Heiko and Sabine Klien

If you're not out there as a missionary, if you just live a simple life at home, even these lives, they can be a beautiful flower for Jesus when you try and fight for obedience to God's word, because it's His word. It's just true from beginning to end, and we need to follow it, and He will bless that. Till now, I don't understand everything, and that's fine, that's fine, because I'm a human being, I'm not God.

But just understand, just read, understand, and try with the Holy Spirit to do what you understand.

Heiko, Sabina, welcome to the podcast. We're sitting here in Switzerland, but you all are from Germany. It's great we're able to meet here and capture some of your story. So I want to start at the beginning. For each of you, were you raised in a religious setting? Tell us a bit of your backstory and anything else you want to say by way of introduction. I was raised in a typically German middle-class family, I would say. I would say this as a Lutheran atheist. So we are part of a Lutheran church, member of the Lutheran church, so pay the church tax like it's common in Germany. But we have nothing to do with the Bible, nothing to do with Christ, nothing to do with God.

Maybe join the church service once in a year, so Christmas or something like this. So it was just on the paper that we were a member of the church. So I had no contact with believers. I can't remember anybody who was a true believer. So I would say there was nothing against religion, I would say, but it was not part of our life.

And how about you, Sabina? I grew up in a broken home, and my mother used to go to an evangelical church. And I was there for children's lessons and stuff. I was exposed to Bible stories. But my father was an atheist, and he left our family when I was a teenager.

And things crumbled down then, and I went away from everything concerning Christianity when I moved out for my nurses' training. So when I lived on my own, I didn't go to a church anymore. You say you moved out to what kind of training were you going to? Nurses. I'm a nurse. So it sounds like for both of you, would you have said you were atheists then? Like you didn't believe in God, or you just didn't think about God?

From my point of view, I would say I wouldn't think about God. That was not a topic in my life, nothing about God. I wouldn't say, yeah, nothing against, but there was no reason to think about God in my life.

And I clearly rebelled against God. Why? See, my mother said that she was, that she's a Christian, but she had asked things of me that were contradictory to the Bible, like hating someone that she hated. And I just wanted to go away from this.

You had a reaction against Christianity because of what you had seen. Is that fair to say? Yes. So you're going through life. Religion is not a big part of the story, really, for you all at this point. So how did you two meet and eventually got married? And yeah, tell me about that process. Okay. I don't know the right English word, but in German, we would say Kontaktanzeige. So it was an advertisement in a newspaper.

And in these times, newspapers were just common. And so, yeah, that's how we got in contact. We met, we somehow fell in love. And yeah, that's how life starts, like in a worldly surrounding. So yeah, we get, after a while, our first son was born, and then we get married.

And then our second son was born. Yeah.

Typical German life. Yeah. And you had said you were, on paper at least, a member in the Lutheran church. Did you maintain that, or? No. At one point, I said, okay, I have to pay church tax for what reason?

I didn't serve the church. The church didn't help me in any way. So I quit being a member of the Lutheran church. But only for financial reasons, as simple as it is. So then I was rid of all religious things, I would say.

Yeah. This might sound funny to an American listener, but in Germany, you pay church tax like you do pay tax to the state or government. Yeah. Okay. Is it because it's a state church? Is the state and church together? Somehow, yeah.

The Catholic and the Protestant churches, they can raise or ask for taxes. And some other churches as well. Yeah. But these are the major. That is a bit odd for our listeners in America. They'd be like, what? Yeah. Yeah. As an American, I can imagine if they would try to do that, that would probably not work because that's not how churches operate there. But again, it's this church, in your experience, as more of just a tradition. Institution.

Yeah. Building, whatever you call it. Yeah. Yeah. And it was never a reality for either of you all in your lives at that point. Yeah. So do you want to give me a general picture of what was life like then? At this point in your lives, you're married, you're starting a family.

Anything you want to add on? Yeah, what was your life at that point? Okay, just to explain what life was in this time. So I had long hair, jewelry, and was used to hear heavy metal music, alternative music. We voted for the left-wing Green Party and drank a lot of alcohol.

So this is, I would say, typical German life. Nothing really bad from this point, but it was just a sinful life, yeah, I would say. And actually, I think I was the one leading out. This is something that is very important in our relationship. I have a personality that is kind of, I like to make decisions quickly. I like to talk fast and stuff.

And I think this is one of the things that brought us, I don't know, into trouble, into difficulties, because I led out in most of the decisions that we made. We had been traveling to India, and I turned towards Buddhism. I was searching for something deeper in Buddhism. Then we had contact with a Catholic church in our village, and I was searching there. But all these points, and there were several more points in our lives, in my life, it just looked dead to me. And especially with Buddhism, I knew enough that maybe demons might be involved. From my childhood teaching, I knew that some dark spirits might be involved in that belief, especially in the Tibetan Buddhism that we kind of, I wouldn't say followed, but still.

Get in contact, yeah. So there was interest in spirituality. For me, yeah. Yeah. Not as much for you as well. Then, Heiko. Okay, so there was something there then for you in your life that says, I'm interested in this spiritual thing, religion, but it sounds a bit vague. I was always on a quest. I was always on a quest for truth.

Why did you think spirituality had truth for you at that point in your life? I don't know. It's difficult to answer. I just felt like without some deeper meaning in life, my life is just void. It's without sense.

Why live on?

Yeah. I think I gave my life to Christ when I was a child, but this kind of got buried. And maybe this was the little flame that was burning in my heart. And Jesus says to those who seek, they will find. And I was always on a quest. Like even when I left the church, when I was a nurse, it was just like I was always looking for more. Yeah, like there's something there, like you're searching for meaning, you know, meaning in life or purpose. Is that the right way of saying it?

And a goal to pursue. A goal. Yeah. Yeah. Someone to worship also. Someone to admire and yeah. So at what point then does Christianity start coming back into the story? Because you're talking Buddhism, going to India, interest in spirituality.

Somewhere Christianity comes in. And where did that start and how? Actually, we were on a vacation in northern Italy. And accidentally, we were in a valley where the former Hutterites, the early Anabaptists in the 1600s, met like in 1534 through 36 or something.

We didn't know that, but we planned a small hiking trip. Our two boys were already born, so we packed our stuff and hiked to this place that we found on the spot that was called Lutheran Cult Stone. It sounded like, I don't know, an altar for Martin Luther, Martin Luther.

And we said, it's funny to go there. Let's just check what that is. Out of curiosity. Yeah. It was interesting. Back in the valley, just a very remote place in the valley, and it turned out to be the secret worship place for the early Anabaptists.

And there was a huge rock standing saying that the early Anabaptists met there secretly for prayer and worship meetings. And I had been in contact with a Beachy Amish Mennonite, Pen Pell, when I was a teenager. So I knew something about Anabaptism. Actually, I knew a lot about the Murderdom. How do you say that? Like they were murderers. Oh, yeah. Yeah, martyrs. Martyrs. Yeah, sorry.

And standing there, I just knew it was just like someone was telling me, this is what you're looking for in every place that you're seeking in or looking into. Yeah, that was the turning point. And when we went home from the vacation, I started reading the Bible again. I prayed, and we were looking for my former Pen Pell.

She now lives in Australia with her husband. They had tried to plant a church there. It didn't work out, though, but at that time, they were still in the process of working with the people in Australia. And then I got in contact with her two weeks after we tried to find her, and then she helped me do my first steps with Christ to repent from so many things. Wow, that's incredible. So you'd had this Pen Pell before. What was the first connection to this person? Actually, one of her friends was visiting a friend of mine in Germany, and the friend of mine brought this girl to our school, and I needed to improve my English.

And I just asked her, would you know of a girl that would like to write letters back and forth? And so we got connected. And I visited her once, and I saw something in her life that I had not seen before in the church that I grew up in.

So you had some of that background coming into this. That's significant. So there's all these little, maybe even not little, but other pieces of your life coming together, building into, strangely enough, this hiking trip. That is incredible. That must have been quite the surprise. You go on this hike and you see this monument or whatever you want to call it back there. Did you notice anything about that situation? Or you are still, religion's irrelevant to me. I don't care. I don't care about God. Yeah, where are you? I think it's just, it was just curiosity from my point of view, because I didn't know anything about all these things about Anabaptism. And Sabina told me some stories, but it was just, I was curious about all these things.

What's happening? We had one funny situation in India when we were hiking. We did a hike in India and going down the mountains, all of a sudden, I don't know why, but I sang a Christian song. And he was asking me, hey, what are you singing now?

Yeah. And maybe so you knew something about the story. I was not against Christianity or religion, but it was not part of my life. So I was not, I had no contact. So it was, I was curious about what does it mean?

So yeah, that was, I think, the starting point. And he even helped me to find my Pen Pell. I was somebody in Australia. I know, but it sounds like adventure.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's an important piece. It's not that you were angry against religion or God. It's just maybe the word would be indifferent. Yeah. Yeah. It just wasn't important, really. No. Yeah. But it sounds like you're starting on a journey at this point. You're definitely starting on a journey. You're starting to read the Bible again. Tell me about that process.

It sounds like you're beginning the process of coming back into Christianity or coming to Christianity. Actually, it was like God had opened my eyes or has opened my eyes. I saw so many things that were wrong in my life. And I tried to, how do you say that, like do it well again? How do you say that? Like I went to people and said, I'm sorry for what I did. And a lot of changes also happened. Like we raised our boys at that point, until that point, anti-authoritarian.

Because we were left-wing, Green Party, all this. Ah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. And our boys were five and two at that point. So for our older boy, Felix, it was kind of hard that all of a sudden there was a wrong and a right and stuff. So I had to really adjust to many new things that I found in the Bible. Also, we had like occult things in our house, like Tibetan prayer flags, like these are Buddhist prayers that we had around the house and stuff. Yeah, I prayed about a lot of things and I threw away a lot of things. I put some things into the stove to burn, some books.

Many, many, many, many adjustments. But what was really nice is that my former Pen Pell, she's Melody Kaufman. That's her name. She got us in contact with a mission in Ireland, Dunmer East, and they got us in contact with a couple in Indiana.

They are about 15 years older than us and they kind of adopted us and they came over and helped me a lot. I really appreciate they poured their heart into our lives and what an adventure. They came to our house. He was not a Christian yet, but I was, and they didn't know us. They just came over and lived with us for three weeks. Wow. And then they came twice a year and really helped us a lot, teaching a lot about. Now we know it was a really adventure for them. Yeah. Yeah, it was just, yeah, very. Because now we are in their age, so just think about that we could do the same, yeah.

That we would travel to Mexico, for example, with family living there, asking for help. And our family, and so, yeah. They really cared. Yeah, definitely. They really cared. So how long were you a Christian before while you were still not a Christian? No, I don't. You know, like that. It was all, I was just, oh, that's interesting what's going on, yeah? Because I was never in contact with real believers before. Yeah. No, that was the first time, yeah. So when they came and visited, that really interested you. Yeah. But you became a believer three years later, and I had also to adjust to what my role in marriage would be. I think our marriage would have been broken if Jesus wouldn't have come in our life.

Yeah. Because the question how to submit and that I have to submit just came up immediately. My parents are divorced and my father is currently living with his third wife, and so divorce is nothing strange to me. So I, at some point, I think I would have wanted to divorce Heiko, but Jesus changed that, and I wouldn't say that I really submit. I'm really fighting for it still. It's just not in my nature.

It really helped our marriage. And just think about, we have no other example in our bigger family, because most of the couples are divorced. Most. I mean, in our family, it's only us that are still married in the first marriage. Yeah. So my brother, her brother, my aunt, everybody is divorced. So this is normal. So this is not an example you would like to follow. So there was no example.

Tell me more about this with your marriage, especially before you all are Christians, where, oh, maybe this isn't going very well, we could just get divorced. Like, talk me through that, and then you, I think it's Heiko, you said, you know, really in the end, Christ saves your marriage.

What did that look like? If you grew up in such a surrounding, the solution of divorce is just one solution. It's just one of several solutions you can have if you get into trouble in your marriage. So this is not special, I would say.

We got really into trouble. We got situations where I have to admire that I thought I had everything under control. Because I'm just from another point, I would say, oh, at this point, I was fine. I'm a nice, friendly woman to healthy boys, a good job, a nice house. So everything's good. Everything's fine. Everything's under control. That's the way it should be. So everything's fine.

But then I came to a point where I just have to understand that, no, it's not me. I'm not the one who has everything under control, because I have to learn that I have nothing under control.

This was one point where I was just, look, I said, okay, you are not the good one. You are not this as perfect as you would like to be. I think this was one point. And on the other side, it was the first time in contact with real believers. And I thought that the example of the power of Jesus Christ in their lives.

So I thought this was a turning point for my life. The witness that you saw from those people.

One thing I had to add, because this seems to be, from my perspective, this was very important just to understand. I had long hair. All the jewelry, everything was a worldly style, I would say. And we had contact with quite conservative Beachy Amish Mennonites.

And from my point of view, it was very important

that they never talk about my appearance. They never talk about, oh, you have to cut your hair because this is unbiblical or you just have to do it like this or that. Because looking back, I would think that if they appear like this, to me, I would just rebel. I would say, okay, I'm done.

It's not up to you to decide whether I cut my hair or not. He was very impressed by the love that they showed to us, especially the family that came over. It's a couple, Bill and Pauline Miller. They've become really like parents for us, right?

And at one point, I just saw that, okay, I have to agree that I'm a sinner. I was full of selfishness, full of bad habits, whatever you call it. And I have to say, okay, I have nothing under control. So I have to say, okay, who is the one who's under everything under control? It's God who has everything under control, not me. And that was the point where I had to just say, okay, if you can help us with the marriage, if you can figure out how to do this, okay, that's you.

I'm not able.

Yeah, and then I gave my life to Jesus Christ, yeah. And then many things changed, yeah, in our life. Not immediately, not like this, but step by step. We had to figure out what does it mean to be, yeah, a husband for me and a wife and how to raise your children and what about money and what about alcohol and what about music and what about your style of clothing and all these things.

Although many things changed at this point. But we don't have a church in our area, so this was a little bit difficult for our situation, I would say. We went several times to Indiana and had good fellowship with the people there. And at one time, I was on the porch, just like a tourist looking around, nothing to do, just scenery, people coming and going. And then they were all, because the neighbors were, many of them were Amish, so the old Amish men with a huge hat with their bikes coming and going. And I was wondering, okay, what about these men about the hats? Okay, is it biblical to wear a hat on a bike? I don't know.

So I just was wondering, okay, maybe I missed something, okay? So I just tried to figure out, oh, what about a hat and a man? And I said, okay, I don't find anything like this, but I stumbled about the verse where it is about it's against the nature that a man has long hair.

I said, okay, I'm sitting here making fun of all these Amish men, but that's about you.

So I thought about, okay, what does it mean? I said, okay, I think it's the point where I have to cut my hair because it's written down that it's against the nature. So I asked my wife about, oh, what do you think about this? The thing. And she had been praying for five months.

I didn't say a word. So yeah, that was very important. Just looking back, that's very important because, yeah, you can easily rebel against somebody who just, oh, you have to, you have to, you have to. That's easily. And it's not good to be rebellious. So that's I know now. But I just asked her, oh, what about cutting my hair now? I said, okay, this might be a good idea, but because she's a wise lady, said, okay, we should sleep at night and then we'll see tomorrow. Not immediately, not in an emotional situation, just do it. So just. But the next day, I still had the desire to, okay, that's the point. Now it's time to say goodbye to my long hair and we did it.

So that was very, very, I think one very important point for me. Our boys were like, where's Dad? They had never seen him. No, never, never before. Never before. They were quite long, nice, long hair. So this was a turning point, I would say. Yeah. They ended up in the trash bin. Yeah. And our host, Pauline, she called people, guess what happened? She was so excited.

I think everybody was waiting for that moment, kind of. Wow. But there's a point you'd made earlier where you had to come to the realization you were not in control anymore. As in not chaos, but as in God is in control. And I think I have everything perfect in life and that's not true. That's not true. And letting that go. Yeah. You know, that was a process. I'm sure it didn't happen immediately, but even this change in how you dress and what kind of hair you have and like these things. Yeah. How long of process was that? That you were in that stage of realizing I don't have everything under control, I have to submit.

Maybe a year. Maybe a year. Yeah. Yeah. That must have been hard at different times. No, it was not hard because as an atheist, you know that some things are wrong, but you still do them. And now I know, okay, there are more things that are wrong and I try to stop it.

I think this is a difference. You know that it's not good to be drunk and coming at home at 3 a.m. in the morning and you know that it's not good, but you just do it because everybody did it. So this is the point. But so these things were quite easy to stop immediately. So we stopped drinking alcohol and something like this. But it's more the habits, more the what does have a priority. These are difficult to readjust, I would say.

And before Heiko became a Christian, we had major problems with one part of the extended family that really troubled us. And this, I think, added to this feeling that I don't have an under control, that I'm not the one controlling the situation. Yeah. Yeah.

And there was a lot of pain involved in that situation. And it may be kind of, yeah, I mean, it's hard to separate these feelings. Yeah. Yeah. So because I was not against religion, for me, it was quite nice to find out, okay, there's some more. There is a framework of how a wealthy, holy family can be. That was quite nice for me to understand this.

And I could see that in other families with all their smaller or bigger problems, I would say that, yeah, this was a good way. It was much, much better than I thought that my worldly way could be. And by example, but it's not about high theological constructions. That's later, I would say. It's more about, yeah, practical. What does it mean? What does it mean in your life? How do you deal with your problems, with your financial problems, with anger? What does it mean in your daily life? These things are, I think, if you have an example, you can see it. That's what helps you. Not all the high theological issues. No, that's second.

That lived experience, you know, especially when you're starting to read the scriptures for the first time again, right? And hearing these teachings and starting to say, how do I live this? I think that's an important piece for both of you that you've been outlining here and how that affected everything from your appearance to, you know, how bringing your marriage back together. I have to ask, there are probably people listening to this that maybe they're struggling in their marriage or, you know, they've seen broken relationships, broken marriages and families. What would you like to say to those people from your own experience and what God's done in you all's relationship through what you've been describing here?

What would you like to say to those people? Fight to be obedient to what you find in the Word. It's sometimes so hard, but I studied the women in scripture and I always came back to my good friend Pauline and asked her, try to be obedient to what you find in the Word. Be submissive.

And also, I don't know how the wording is in English. Everything turns out to be good for those who love God. It's in Romans 8:28. Just believe in that even if things are bad. I mean, not every situation can be solved.

Like this major family trouble that I was talking about, it's not solved yet. It's still ongoing. It's an ongoing battle. But God wants to use even the deepest pain in our life in order to let us grow and, do you say, blossom, become a flower for God, for His. So even if it costs your life in your daily life, if you're not out there as a missionary, if you just live a simple life at home, have children, raise children, even these lives, they can be a beautiful flower for Jesus when you try and fight for obedience to God's Word because it's His Word. It's just true from beginning to end and we need to follow it and He will bless that.

And for me, it was very important and I think this is good advice. I thought at the beginning, oh, I have to understand 120% of the Bible because I want to be a follower of Jesus Christ. And without knowing 100% of the Bible, who should I follow? So just think about this because I studied computer science, so there's the right and the wrong and I have to understand everything. So I thought, oh, oh, this will take a while. But at one point, I said, okay, no, there is no need to because this is God's Word. And who I am, that I understand immediately everything, it is in the Bible. So I have to quit this thought and just think, okay, I read and what I understand, I try to do step by step.

Until now, I don't understand everything. And that's fine. That's fine because I'm a human being. I'm not God. But just understand, just read, understand and try with the Holy Spirit to do what you understand step by step. Not everything at once. Not just go into deep and dig and dig and dig until you know. If you understand 80% and you know that's right and there's 20% missing, just try to do it.

I came up with a question. Sabine, do you really believe that there were people living on this earth being close to 1,000 years old? That's crazy. I don't want to believe that. So he had to let go of these questions for a time.

And these, I think these can be relevant for somebody. And they were relevant for me. And I still don't understand how this could be. So there are theories why. But is it so important? That's always the question. What is important? I just figure out, okay, you on a daily basis, you go into your car and start your engine.

So do you understand everything about your engine? No, you don't. But it starts, it runs. That's fine. So just that's the way. It's just, it's God's Word and it's true. Just read it and do what you understand and go on. And maybe you have to at one point to skip a part and go back a year later, go back, maybe have you more understanding of this special part. But go on, just do what you understand.

This sounds similar to what you were saying about how you felt like you had to be in control, like you were in control of everything and everything's okay. And when it comes to, say, Christianity or the Bible, well, I'm not going to be until I understand it all. It's like I have to understand it before. It seems to me those are a similar thing. Those are maybe even the same thing for you and having to let that go. Yeah, let it go. Just it's I'm not so important.

My emotions are not so important. They're from God and that's good. That's good. But they're not so important. My understanding is not so important. Just what I understand, I would try to do. And just to give up, just to say, okay, God is under control. He's the one who knows what is best for me.

So I'm going to do a slight pivot here in the story. You've mentioned how you had interactions with different Mennonites and things, Indiana, your pen pal, and so forth. But you all live in Germany. There aren't, if I understand correctly, many Anabaptists or any Anabaptists in the area where you live, right? So talk to me about that and the challenges of where do we go to church? How do we find a community of believers to be a part of? I think we would like to see more churches on a biblical standard with true believers.

And this is, I think this should be the goal. And it's not easy to because there's a lot of influence from the world. A lot of influence, a lot of how to think about situations, how to deal with the situation, how to deal with family problems. There are many, a lot of influence out of the world.

Yeah, we would long for, how would you say that revival in all German churches? Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of influence coming from psychology, I think. I'm just reading a book about that that was written in 1993 and it's just an eye opener to what we as German churches practice at sometimes that this comes back from thinking in terms of psychology, like solving problems through counseling and stuff and not through, yeah, I have to repent for my sin and I have to change wrong attitudes and stuff.

It's really a struggle for us. It seems to be kind of dark over here in Europe, like spiritually speaking. And I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I had done some research on the decline of the church in Europe from the last 100 years. And it's shocking. You look at something like the Netherlands, it was 95% 100 years ago. We're Christians. And you know, okay, you could argue how many of them were real, of course. But the number today would be only 35%. You know, and that's a pretty sharp decline in 100 years for a demographic. And now they're at the point where the majority would claim atheism of the population. You know, and I don't know what the numbers are for Germany, but I know it's probably be some similarities there.

And that's a hard thing to wrestle with. I'm hearing what you're saying there. And then what you were describing, you may have people like that were in your situation who were registered in the church, but you only go once a year and it's, I mean, none of it's real anyway, you know. I think in former times, like in the times of my parents, there were some Christian values in the daily life. Like when I grew up, if you get divorced, oh, this was bad. If you were the child with only one, with us, with a father or the mother, this was bad. So this was just an awful situation for a child. But nowadays, this is normal.

So these things changed as well. So the cultural Christianity and the values, they changed. They are no longer there. And they come into the churches. I mean, in more liberal churches, it's kind of normal to be divorced by now.

Also, we see pop culture coming into many of the churches. Yeah, it's many things that add to the decline of the churches here. So what you all experienced of saving your marriage and holding your marriage together would actually be unusual in some ways. You did something that was almost countercultural, if that makes sense. Yeah, Jesus did it. Not me. Yeah, yeah.

Sorry, I should reframe that. Yeah, yeah. And how, yeah, how Christ saves your marriage and brings you back together. That's an unusual thing. You actually went the different direction, whereas maybe in the past, that wouldn't have been so unusual. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we phrase that that people in our area, in our surroundings, like our family, they, yeah, many don't understand the way we did it.

They don't understand because they think, oh, that's not good. That's just the wrong way. Yeah. And I'm going to guess that is a large part of your experience is living in a way that is counter to the culture around you. You know, you're doing things that are different. Yeah.

Has that been hard over the years? Sometimes, yeah. So we are graceful that in our time without Jesus Christ, we were used to have to make decisions that are not popular. So we are somehow used to be not mainstream. So that was a good thing we know. But nowadays, it's sometimes quite hard to be different. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Like me wearing the head covering sometimes. Yeah, oh, that's fine. I fear that our boys will get mocked because they have a mom that wears something on her head. Yeah. And especially, but nobody knows for what reason. Yeah. People don't understand it in our culture. Yeah. Do you want to talk more about that? Like, yeah, I was wondering how does society look at that in where you live?

Would it just be so unusual? They don't even know how to process. They don't ask. They just stare at me. Okay. I mean, I'm guessing they would assume that you are some kind of religious person and that's why you do it? Or would they? Yeah. I would assume so. And I sometimes have the impression that they might be thinking that I'm a Muslim or something. I don't know. But I really don't know. I don't have many questions concerning that. Sometimes there is a person who would ask and then I would explain and then, oh yeah, you do it like this and I do it like that. And that's fine. So we are very tolerant here in Europe.

Uh-huh. Yeah. But it feels very lonely. Mm-hmm. Especially actually in the churches because they know more about 1 Corinthians 11 than the normal German person that would meet me. Yeah. And yeah, in the churches, I face kind of that, okay, you are ultra-conservative and you are legalistic and we are not. We are free. We are more free. Mm-hmm. We don't have to do this. And yeah, right in the beginning of my walk with Jesus, I had found a church in our area and we went to the church and Heiko was not a believer at that time. And the boys, of course, weren't believers because they were still small. And after a while in this church, it happened to be that a woman preached and they allowed women to preach in general.

There wasn't a female preacher, but when the pastor was, I don't know, on vacation or something, they asked random people also and including women. Then I addressed the pastor and I asked him why, as it is in the Bible, that we as women shouldn't teach and preaching is teaching. And I couldn't stay in a church where women are preaching as it is against the scripture.

And to make it short, he said, okay, if you would leave our church and go to a more conservative church, your husband and your children will not become Christian because they are too strict. It's legalistic and don't do that. And I was just like crying and crying and I said, well, I'm in a conflict here.

My conscience says it's not right and I cannot agree with it. And yeah, I then left the situation and prayed and I praised God that they became Christians despite extremely conservative Christians in our lives. And on the other side, as an unbelieving husband following a believing wife into a church service, it's very interesting to look from a different point of view, from an outsider, just what's going on. And it's very interesting. And just I think that's very important for us believers now that somebody from outside can quite easily identify who you are following.

Easily, very easy. Just understand if there's a church service and at the end of the church service, you are gathering maybe a cup of tea and having a small talk and just you just stay there and hear what they're talking about.

When you are a part of a football club, so, and after the game, what do you talk about? About football. So after the church service, what do you talk about? If you talk about football or your vacation or your new car, that sounds from an outside perspective, interesting, I would say. And then you easily can see, okay, they talk about the sermon. They talk about, oh, what does it for me? What's going on? Or what the scripture says? Or I had a situation in my life doing this and that. So you see what's going on in their lives by just. It was so interesting. The first church was really kind of liberal. They also had a band playing with worship songs and stuff.

And Heiko wasn't very impressed. He went along. He was just curious, but he wasn't very impressed. And then during that time, sometime we got in connection with a mission in Ireland and we made a trip to Ireland just as a family trip. And I asked him, I would like, if we go to Ireland, I would like to just visit the Mennonites there. I would just be there on a Sunday and visit the church service. And so we planned the trip according to that and we stayed in Waterford and I went on the Sunday morning to the church service. And then Dan Yoder, he was the bishop at that time of the church, he said, well, Sabina, you would like to invite your family.

And I was like, oh my, Heiko, he just looks so hippie-like. But anyway, I said, yes, I'll ask my husband and then if we can go, come, we'll come. And then I asked him, he said, yes, why not? I was curious. He was curious. Interesting. And then we came back from, I'm sorry, we came back from that, I don't know, was it tea break, coffee break, whatever, I don't remember that. But we came home to the apartment that we had rented for the vacation and he said, well, this is different. I really appreciate these people. They follow Jesus and I can see that. That's what he said. Wow.

And so you did go then to their home, I think, I guess, like for a meal or something. That's so interesting because I interviewed Dan, I know you know, last year and that was lovely, you know, to hear his story. And he even said, being not a believer, this is really a humble man. He really appreciated Dan's attitude.

That's so interesting because you'd been told previously that, oh, if you go this direction, that'll be legalistic and you'll, and the rest of your family won't come to Jesus, which, oof, that's a heavy thing for someone to tell a new believer, for starters. But also it, that wasn't the point, it sounds like. No, it was not the point. You know, the legalism and the rules and all of that, it was the love that you saw, right?

The way people interacted with you, Heiko, it feels like that's the real point here. Yes, if you want to do something, just do it, don't talk about it. It's just, it should, yeah, you should see it in your life. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be authentic.

And it's, yeah, and we met different other, we were in different church services and I could easily, easily understand what's going on in this church and what's going on in this church. And just think about if you invite some unbelieving neighbor, they would see what's going on at the church. They definitely would understand. And the pastor in our first church even praised his long, beautiful hair from the pulpit.

Oh my. Yeah, he wanted to win him like. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, of course. And Dan never addressed, Dan Yoder never addressed the issue of his long hair, but he just invited him, was friendly, took interest, talked about his beliefs and stuff and was more winning.

It sounds like a theme in this story is hospitality. Yeah. As well, like the way people had you all into their lives and their homes and cared about you, right? Mm-hmm. In a way, it's authentic. It's not to just please you, to be especially loving or whatever. And so just the way it is, just it's authentic. It's just the way they live.

It's not something to do something special, just an extra meal, extra cake or whatever. Nothing like this. It's just the way it is. The way that's the way I live. Sharing the life. Yeah, yeah, sharing the life. Yeah. Yeah. There's a real lesson there, I think, for all of us. Mm-hmm. Because it's easy to forget how powerful that can be. Mm-hmm. So both of you have shared a powerful story of the power of Christ in your lives and how that has not just brought you back to Christianity, but deeply impacted how you live and how you raise your family, how you do marriage, all of these things.

There's probably people listening to this that are maybe questioning the power of Christ in their lives and saying, is this really, will it make a difference? Doesn't matter that much. I'm not really sure. And so forth. What would you like to say to those people that are questioning the power of Christ in their lives?

Try it. Try it. Try it out. Jesus is faithful. Yeah. And it's powerful. And it starts with small things. Just try it out. Don't think about, oh, could this be real or is it really working or what does it mean? Just do it. Mm-hmm. And be humble and be open to correction. Mm-hmm. I think one important thing is it's you are not so important. Yourself, your wishes, your whatever you think, your desires are not so important. Just, I would say, humble yourself and just find out what's right. Just it's not so important to drink beer every evening. What does it mean? Mm-hmm. It's not so important to go to a soccer match every Sunday morning.

It's not so important. Think about eternities. Think about what is really important in your life. And not these entertainment stuff and things that's, yeah. Well, Heiko, Sabina, thank you so much for sharing your story. You've given us a lot to think about today. Actually, it's not our story. It's God's story. It's his story. Jesus is a storyteller. That's so true. Yeah, that's so true. And just those lessons of, like you're saying, humility, but also that piece of we're not in control, God is in control, and letting go of that. Yeah.