How I Went from Costa Rican Catholic to Committed Anabaptist Translator — Keiner Barrantes

Lesson Transcript

He was, uh, having revival meetings in this community. After the service one night, he walks up to me and he asked me, "Is the— is the Spirit talking to you? Is He— is the Spirit speaking to your heart?" He said, and I was kind of baffled by the question, and I said, I figured that maybe the right thing to say was, "Yes, He is." So I said something to that effect, and, um, he looked at me for a little bit and he said, "No, no, He's not. I don't think so.

But when He does, make sure you respond." He said— Well, Kanor, here we are in, uh, Costa Rica, and I would have met you— what's it been— maybe a year and a half ago? About a year and a half, yes. Or a little over a year. And you would have been in my area, up in Tennessee, and I— at that point we were just saying, before we turned the cameras on and things that, I wouldn't have anticipated that we'd be here doing this down here in Costa Rica, where you're from, and I'm very excited for that.

So we want to capture your story. So I just want to say, welcome to the podcast, and— Thank you. —let's start at the beginning. Where were you born? Tell us about yourself. Well, thank you. Very nice to have you here in this area, Costa Rica. Well, I was— well, my name is Kanor Barrantes. To make it easier for you, Americans, we don't roll the R here in Costa Rica, so you can just say Kanor, you know, Kanor. Sounds close enough to the English pronunciation. I was born in this general area, not far from here at all.

And I grew up in this area too. I come from a— from a Catholic home background, both on my dad's side and on my mom's side. Both families are Catholic. When I was growing up, Costa Rica was 92% Catholic, the population. That is changing a lot, but that's— that's the kind of Costa Rica society that I grew up in. We moved to this specific area. This is Santa Rita here, and La Estrella— the two names refer to the same general area here where the— some of the churches are.

And we moved here when I was, like, 13 or 14, something like that. My dad got a job in this area, working for a man, a businessperson in the church, and that's how we ended up in this precise, precise location. But yeah, I— I grew up in the general northern area of Costa Rica. So you— you would have been Catholic then growing up. Like, what was that like? Maybe your— your daily life experience as a child, but then how did the Catholic faith affect how you lived?

I spent— well, growing up, I spent a good bit of time with my grandma at my grand— grandpa's place. Due to different circumstances, I spent a lot of time with them away from my family, and living a year, or even 2 years at a time, with my grandma while growing up. And she was a fervent Catholic. She taught me a lot. She was intentional in this— this thing of teaching me about Catholic practices, prayers, doctrine, the why behind this, the why behind that.

I suppose I went through the why stage at some point too in my childhood and had many questions. She was very interested in that. My home, where I would also spend time with, you know, like my parents and my siblings— I'm the oldest of 7— was somewhat more secular, you could almost say. Not as religious, not as active in the Catholic affairs. I— I remember my parents going through those years of conflict, in a way.

They were the generation that had to somehow try to reconcile the traditional teaching from the church, the Genesis narrative, you know, traditional stuff from the Catholic faith, and the— the urgence of the scientific method. And TV got to our home, you know, when I was, like, I'm not sure, maybe 8 or 9 years old. We were growing up without electric— without electricity, without TV. But the time came when electricity made it to our place, up in the mountains, a bit of a remote area.

And then electricity— I mean, television came soon after, and my parents had a lot of interest in the— in the scientific stuff that was coming through, all of it evolutionary, all of it highly humanistic too, or humanist, I'm not sure how you say that. And I could tell that they— it was a conflict for them. Even if I was just a child, I remember hearing their conversations, and they trying to explain how the two could be reconciled, and what camp to listen to. That planted a seed in my— my life.

I can't— I can't— I would have never known it at the time, but now looking back, I can see how some of my quests in life originate back in those days, and as a result of this conflict that I could see my parents experiencing. Even if they were not very articulate, or they— they did not articulate it very well, but it was there. The conflict was there, yeah. So was that— that confusing for you as a child? Like, how did you deal with that conflict?

Okay, so, like, from my— growing up with my grandma, she would have been more ready to just take the, uh, plain narrative from the Bible and the Catholic dogma. Although the Catholic Church as a whole, as a— as a global institution, was also going through some changes in their dogma and their position about some of these things. But I think, for the most part, I was pretty satisfied, and even a little proud of especially how my dad would be able to reconcile the two.

You know, he would just tend to allegorize Genesis a little bit, yeah, day one, day two, that's probably talking about millions of years, or long ages, or long spans of time. That's probably the explanation, because he especially would have not been ready to question what the TV was telling us, was teaching us, actually. He was an admirer of the scientific method. He admired the— these personalities, making all these discoveries and all these programs. Being translated into Spanish, by the way, I remember that.

I remember that element about these TV programs. You know, I could tell that they were translated, and it— it was all— it was all a bit of a contrast, or a bit of an unsettling time that that generation had to go through, more my parents than myself, you know? So through all of that, how would you describe your church experience? Like, what was church like for you? Did you go to Mass regularly at the Catholic Church, etc.? I did. We did.

Although my family was not as fervent and active as my grandmother was, we still attended regularly. Every week we went— just about every week we went to Mass. We went to other festivities, other activities. They were all very interconnected. Like, in that time when the population of Costa Rica was 92% Catholic, well, the— the, like, school life in a public, secular school was intertwined with Catholic activities too, you know?

And so when I went to school— while I was going to school— the teachers at the school would always be happy. I guess they saw it as mandatory, basically, to accommodate for more religious activities and for us to go and take the classes that you're— the instruction that you're supposed to take before taking First Communion and things like that. That was a given. That was granted. I mean, like, church and school working hand in hand in a community.

I— I was brought up admiring some of our priests, especially the one. He was a— he was someone that I even felt, like, emulating at some point. I would admire him. He seemed to me like a nice guy. He was from Spain. He was not a Costa Rican. So I remember his distinct accent, you know? And I remember seeing my parents having conversations with him after a religious activity, or maybe Mass, and I could tell from all those interactions that this is a man that you respect. He has good advice for you.

So in many aspects— aspects, it was fairly positive. One thing I didn't like about my Catholic upbringing was the— I— I could almost say the superstitious elements of it. I found some of that a little scary. I was scared of death. I didn't like funerals. The— the whole Catholic way of dealing with the subject of death, I did not enjoy. I did not like.

I mean, like, I remember going to— to funerals or to things, and hearing stories, well, stories from other youth, or adolescents, and children, and just not liking that part. Feeling scared by it all. By the age of 11, I— I remember I was— I'm pretty sure I was 11 years old, and I had developed a good bit of a fear about death.

I mean, I feared death, in a way, because of the— I associated it definitely with the— with the Catholic— maybe not directly Catholic teaching, but the Catholic atmosphere around the whole— the whole topic or theme. So I didn't like that part. Anabaptist Perspectives has been publishing material for 9 years: essays, regular podcasts, the Frank Reid series, and, this summer, the Anabaptist Origins documentary series. All of this is possible and made freely available because of generous supporters like you.

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Like, how real was your faith, or was it more, this is just a ritual, or something you do because this is the way you're raised? No, I— for me, the whole Catholic dogma and— and— and teachings and everything was simply a way of life. I did believe that it was the right thing to do. I remember coming in contact, or hearing about, evangelical families, Protestant families. I remember when that started to become a little bit more common in Costa Rica.

Before that, I— you never heard about a neighbor that happened to be evangelical, Protestant, or something. Protestant is the— Protestant is the preferred term used by Catholics to refer to— to refer to Protestants, you know? It's— it carries this connotation of they're Protestants, they're against something, you know? It's not like evangelicals would sound more positive, I guess. But if 92% at the time of Costa Rica is Catholic, you wouldn't have known anything different, basically. Exactly.

That is changing— That's incredible. That is changing very rapidly, but that's— that's what it was like. I mean, 92%, I had no idea it was that high. You know, everybody around you then would believe pretty much the same. Pretty similar. Yeah. A lot of that— people, much of that percentage would have not been practicing Catholics, really, but still going to Mass once in a while, believing the same basic doctrinal— adhering to the same basic doctrinal body. My grandma gave me a book when I was, like, 11.

The name of the book was Esta es nuestra fe, in Spanish, "This is our faith." She wanted me to get it right from the beginning, you know, before— under influence with Teacher Miron. And yes, that's what we knew. It was rapidly becoming more evangelical. It's interesting how the— the Charismatic movement was able to permeate even the very orthodox and very traditional Catholic structures.

The Charismatic movement does not really require evangelicals, or Catholics, or anyone to— to live their faith, or live their communities, to join the movement. I mean, the— the movement gets to them, finds them where they are, you know? And— but I think even if the Charismatic movement was not asking people to leave the Catholic Church, they still opened a door for them, and many took an interest in what else is out there. And that has caused a lot of changes.

But yeah, that's— that's what growing up in this society was like. That's your childhood, your growing-up years. Somewhere in there, though, you run into the Mennonites, Anabaptists. When was that, and what was that like? Like, how— how did you find them? Yes. So I would have been 13, maybe close to turning 14, when we moved to this community. We ended up moving to this area here at this community because my dad was offered a job at a chicken killing plant, big business here in the vicinity.

It's still here in the neighborhood. The owner of the business was a man from the church in this area, one businessman from the Russian Mennonite community that had moved down from Belize to this area. So these people had come some years before. They started businesses. They were employing people. They were very successful business people. So this man, Venus Cornelsen, he had his company here. Through his administrators and managers, my dad was contacted and offered this job.

He was offered a job and also a house for his family to move into. So that's how we ended up moving to this community. That put us in contact with the Cornelsen family initially, and then other families in the neighborhood that belonged to the same congregation, La Estrella congregation. Some of them, maybe most of the family, maybe, I'm not sure, would have been from the Russian Mennonite background. So a series of things took place from there. We were— we were very well received in the community.

We were accepted, received in their school for one year. That was a bit of a new thing. They were not necessarily interested in admitting, taking children from the community that were not from the families of the church. But they did that for me and my sister, the two of us. And that started to really impact our lives. We were fairly young. I would have been 14 when I went to school. And I had studied in the secular educational system for 7 years.

Then I go to this one-room school in the basement of the churchhouse. Oh, wow. And with these interesting teachers that had something on their heads, you know, and dressed a little different, and— an interesting story begins there, you know, when we went to school that year. So that— that would have had to have an influence. Like, how old are you at that point when you go to the school? 14. 14. I go to 8th grade in— in the— at the school there in the La Estrella community, this community.

We're not far from the— from where that building is, yes. So you just live in this area for a while, and eventually you chose to join the church here? Or, like, what was the next steps in the process for you? Because there's some— some major changes that would have to happen in your life. In the next few years, yes. Yeah. Like, tell me what those changes were, you know? Well, first of all, I must say I'm very thankful for the way in which we were received in this community.

My dad— my dad, he was just working for a man from the community, a local man. They were not necessarily interested in any commitment with the church or making any changes. They were more interested simply in sending us children to this school here, maybe realizing that, I don't know, as far as education and getting our— getting our, yes, our education, getting our facts right in life, maybe that was going to be beneficial. I think they wanted to expose us to this new way of life that they were seeing.

I'm not sure what all they had in mind, but they were very interested in sending me and my sister to this school and having us relate to these people and this youth group. I have never asked them exactly why they felt that way, but— but I could— I could— I could sense it. I could tell they were not just okay, but encouraging. Yeah. Yeah, this is— this is a good thing. This is good people. You may learn something there, you know? So they saw something in that school and community. They're like. Community, yes.

They want their children to have that. They wanted you to have that. Exactly. They were interested in exposing us to that, for some reason. More interested in having us learn about this way of life than they were in taking much of it themselves, for some reason. But that's— that's fine. So they— they thought we could benefit in some way from— from this connection and being closer to these people. Maybe even learning the— the language, learning English as a second language was maybe important.

I knew not a word of English before I went to that school, you know? And, you know, English as a second language is a great asset, actually, today. So maybe some of those things played into it, factored into it, to their decision, the way they were feeling. Some of the people were very interested, I think, in our lives.

So, like, the owner of this business, I think he was also the chairman of the school board, and he took an interest in this— in this adolescents, this— these children from this new family in the community. I think it was mainly due to his— or thanks to his persuasion that we were received in the school. And then I had a teacher there. He just— again, I don't think he ever said much or exactly why, but he just felt that I needed to continue to be in contact with the community.

He thought of all kinds of books that he felt that I needed to be reading. He decided at one point, "Hey, Keener, you'll have to learn English because I'm not finding the— the books you should be reading in Spanish, you know, they're not translated, so you'll have to learn English, and so you can read those books." And I was not interested. I mean, at that age, I didn't have the maturity to understand why learning a second language would be useful or make sense at all, you know? It was a big bother.

But he insisted. He really wanted to. I remember kind of making this deal with him, "Okay, I'll just— I'll just learn enough that I can read those books." That'll— that'll do, you know? If I don't have to have conversations, I don't— if I don't have to speak the language, I'll be okay, you know? So that was a— that was quite a factor. I'm still not a Christian. I'm still not converted. I don't think I was even under a lot of conviction from the Spirit.

It was later, when I was more like 15 or so, that I started to think more about my condition and sin and the need for conversion. I started going to some revival meetings with the youth group. Actually, even before coming to this community, I had been more afraid of death, you know, from 11 years old to 14 years old. There was those two, maybe even up to close to 3 years, that I would think a lot about death. I didn't— I didn't like that part. I didn't— I was a little scared by the idea.

I remember thinking, "I wish I could figure out a way of simply— simply not having to die, being immortal." But I— I was probably more afraid of the whole Catholic tradition regarding death than I was afraid of death itself. I don't know. Maybe as a child, maybe when I grew older, I would have been afraid of dying and meeting my Creator more than— than I was initially. But I— for some time, I sort of forgot about that. And it was until I was 15, almost 16, that I found myself under conviction again.

And that's when I made my decision to— to serve God. And yes, when I— that was the time of my conversion. I was almost 16, yes. So when you made that choice, what changed in your life? Okay, so I had felt— I had experienced much acceptance from the youth group. The community had a wonderful youth group. I had— I had experienced a sense of belonging. I could even say, going back a little, I can even say that the most positive form of peer pressure led me to Christ and to joining the group. Interesting.

Because it was— it was something remarkable, the acceptance and the— and everything. So one day, when I make my decision, I'm in church, it was a Sunday morning, and a bit of a parenthesis here, I'm there listening to the preacher that Sunday morning. It happened to be Albert Dulick. He's no longer with us here, but he was preaching. He was someone very fast with his Bible. He would say, "Let's turn to Hebrews 10," you know, and almost immediately he would be reading Hebrews 10. He was very fast.

So some of us boys, young boys, sometimes would get very bored, and of course we would have not been paying attention or anything. So we would get just very bored. That Sunday morning, I remember thinking, "Hey, this is— this is boring. This preaching is taking on and taking longer. You know what? I'll— I'll be— I'll be turning in my Bible to those references, and I'll see if I can do it as fast as the preacher is doing it, you know?

That'll keep me awake, maybe." So I started turning in my Bible real fast, trying to keep up with the preacher. I was not being able to, but I was— at least I was entertained for a while. And he turned to Scripture, maybe Hebrews 9 or somewhere. I don't think it was Hebrews 10, but opposite that page and that reference I had in my Bible, I had it open to Hebrews 10, and I started reading Hebrews chapter 10, verse 26. And that just brought this sudden conviction to my heart. It was just very fast and very sudden.

I ended up crying. I read just a few verses. I couldn't continue reading, and I was just sobbing there and shaking and knowing that that Scripture was for me. I was that person in that passage, the person— and I'll free translate here— the person that rejects Jesus, rejects Christ even after having known the truth, you know?

And how the passage says that even under the law of Moses, anyone would die, would be put to death on the testimony of one or two witnesses, and how much more punishment would deserve he that rejects Christ. And so that brought a lot of conviction. And— and I just— I just knew. I didn't even think I'd made much of a decision. It was, like, so obvious. I have to join— well, I have to serve God, I have to repent, and I have to join this— this community here, these people.

They had become the reference in my life, so what else, you know? By— by then, I would have not even thought of going to a priest or going to some Catholic authority to ask them what am I supposed to do with this conviction that I'm experiencing. So right there and then, after the service, the deacon, Glenn Bontrager, went up to the pulpit to get the offering, or to write on the— on the board, on the chalkboard, to write what the offering had been, the amount of the— the money put in the offering had been.

When he was coming back, I stopped him. I said, "I need to talk to you." And I said, "I want to— I want to join instruction class." I think that's how I put it. For me, that meant I'm— I'm now a Christian, and I want to become a member, you know? So I went to— I went to church that morning with no intentions of becoming a Christian that day. Actually, one of my friends, my best friend, had invited me to his house, like he would have done often. Often he would invite me to his place on Sundays.

And I think that as a way of evangelizing me, they would say, "Just come to church and you can write with us from there," you know? I think that was kind of their way. Looking back, I'm pretty sure that was their way of making sure I would be exposed to the teaching of the Word, and I would come to Sunday school. Yeah.

That's— that's phenomenal, though, that you show up to church, no intention of— I mean, you could— it sounds like you couldn't have imagined how your life would change in those next few hours in that church service. Exactly. I had been to some revival meetings, and I had wondered, should I respond to the calling? Shouldn't I? I don't think I was understanding very well what responding to the calling meant, because I was not necessarily afraid of responding or intimidated by the idea.

I did not— it was just not clicking for me. Like, why do some people go up front? Why do some people respond? I couldn't quite grasp what was going on. And a few weeks before I made my decision, a few weeks before my conversion, I was talking to a minister, Chente Mejia, after one of his preachings. He was having revival meetings in this community. After the service, one night, he walks up to me and he asked me, "Is the— is the Spirit talking to you? Is He— is the Spirit speaking to your heart?" he said.

And I was kind of baffled by the question. And I said, "I figured that maybe the right thing to say was, 'Yes, He is'." So I said something to that effect, and he looked at me for a little bit and he said, "No, no, He's not. I don't think so. But when He does, make sure you respond," he said. So that was, like, about a month or so before my— my decision. I think he was right, in a way. I'm sure he's noticed something I was not understanding fully at all, what it meant giving my life to God.

There's another sense in which, definitely, I had been under some form of conviction even since the age of 11 years old, you know? When I started to be more afraid of death, when I started to— to wish that life didn't have to change. I remember thinking at the age of 11, or having a bit of an existential crisis, feeling like, "Why do I have to get older?

Why do I have to part ways with people, kind of wishing things could just remain static and freeze in time?" And so a different way of putting it now, I think, would have been: I was afraid of accountability. I was afraid of becoming more responsible for anything in life, you know? I was happy to be a child, and I wanted to stay a child, you know? Yeah. So when you make that choice and now you're like, "I want to join instruction class," or, you know, become a member, be baptized, tell me about that process.

And then also, were there certain teachings that were hard to understand, different challenges you had to face in that process of joining the church, becoming a member? What was that like? Three different areas. As far as doctrines, teachings from the church, I don't remember much of a struggle. I didn't have the formal Catholic theological shaping, training, so I would have not been in a position to really notice the big, big differences.

I remember thinking some about transubstantiation, you know, if I can get the term right. Oh, yeah. Can you tell us what that means for those that might not know what transubstantiation is? Okay, that means that the— what do you call the— Like the— the wafer, I think. The wafer, yes. In the Catholic doctrine, yeah. The Catholic tradition that becomes literally the body of Christ, you know, during the ritual of transubstantiation. Yeah.

And by the— by the time I became a Christian in the Baptist movement, I would have seen, I would have witnessed communion being done, being taken in the Baptist church, maybe a couple times or so. So I remember thinking about that some. Aren't they just having a bit of— of a light concept of what's going on here, you know? Yeah. But the main struggle had to do with values, not doctrine so much. I don't remember doctrine so much.

Maybe— maybe there was some thought given to this whole thing of communion versus the Eucharist in the Catholic Church. Some thought given to that. Maybe some more thought given to the whole thing of non-resistance. That would have been almost a little major. I mean, like, non-resistance. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, for sure. But my main struggle would have been with values.

So I had enough humanism in my mind, in my way of thinking, that the contrast between what I thought life should be about and what I was experiencing in sin was enough to make me think. So I remember, for instance, I remember the bishop or ministers coming into the churchhouse and submitting to the direction from this very young lad, this very young boy, telling them, or sometimes even simply motioning to them where to sit, you know?

I would have been like, you know, "Well, I'm— if I'm the bishop, I don't know that I would listen to this boy, you know? He's much younger." So— That's interesting. Some of those things— Not all of that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's very natural for us. We just listen to whoever is in charge, you know, anymore, you know, for you and a Baptist and for me anymore. Like, yes, of course. I mean, he may be fairly young, but he was given that responsibility.

He's just doing his job, and you go sit where he wants you to sit, you know? But that was— I thought that was a little backwards, you know? You don't— it's fine if you tell some of the lay members where to sit, but not the— not the minister, not the bishop, you know? So things that I would have noticed, and not exactly a big struggle for me, but they were obvious and they were making me think. One other time, for instance, we were playing volleyball. Some of us youth were playing volleyball.

And this is all after my conversion, you know? So some of those ways of thinking, they don't— they don't change overnight, simply because you become a Christian, you know? You have to— you have to learn. You have to be shaped by those— those values. We were playing volleyball, and I didn't think it was even late at all. Maybe— maybe close to 9:00 p.m. or something.

And one minister from— from the church, Eldon Tuick in this case, comes by, stops his truck, walks over to where we're playing, he watches the game for a little bit, and all of a sudden he starts to say something. He didn't even articulate it very well. He started to say something to the effect of, "Maybe it's late enough. Saturday afternoon." And just like that, the volleyball dropped and the game was over, you know? And I was a little bothered by that.

I mean, like, why don't we just serve a couple more times, or play some extra 10 minutes or 15 minutes? Because, I mean, in this band, he just walks— he just walks over, and just like that, he puts an end to our game. And— but everybody seemed to be okay with following his prompts, because, like I said, he didn't even say much at all. And so those were very interesting things to watch, to observe, to think about, to contrast with what I had known. I appreciate all of that now.

I mean, those were all very, very valuable lessons that a 16-year-old boy had to be learning. Yeah. Were there specific cultural challenges or changes that were hard to adapt to? I'm sure there were, but probably the families from the congregation had a harder time with me in regards to those differences than I did. I mean, I was a little careless. I was fairly young. I went about my life and my way of doing things. If they had a problem with it, well, too bad, you know?

I think I probably— well, I'm not proud of that. Chances are I had a bit of— I don't know. Hopefully not— hopefully not an entitled attitude, but maybe I did. So they had to be very lenient, I'm sure. It's a good thing that they moved to this country and this Kleniga Mindy community, this Russian Mennonites from the Kleniga Mindy stream of Anabaptism. They were very aware— aware of the fact that they— they wanted to be lenient. They wanted to open up to this culture. And they did a great job in that sense.

They tried very hard to learn Spanish, to use the Spanish language in all their services and things. They did a great effort. I could tell that they were trying to accommodate people like me, and that made it much easier for me too. Still, there were differences, again, almost related to values. I remember thinking, "They're too rigid about Sundays," you know?

Like, there was a lot of fun stuff that I couldn't do with my friends because their parents would not allow those activities on a Sunday afternoon or something like that. Some of those things got in the way sometimes, but they were not so much cultural as they were related to values and family values. And— So where you find yourself today, if I'm getting this correct, you don't live in Costa Rica anymore. You live in Honduras. Yes. I moved with my family to Honduras, central area, in the country of Honduras.

We have been there with the Pilgrim Mennonite Conference for 10 years now, yes. So that would be different than the church you would have been converted in. That was Kleniga Mindy, I think you said? The people here, the main ethnic and cultural group represented in the community here, I would say it was the Kleniga Mindy people, the Russian Mennonites from Belize, yes. But then— so you're in Honduras now, Pilgrim Mennonite Church. You work for Digital Mana as well, right?

So that's a ministry, a literature ministry, I believe. Is that correct? Literature ministry. For many years, even while living here in Costa Rica, I worked for— I worked for publishing houses for many years. Okay. 28 years or 30 years, many, many years. Oh, wow. Doing translation, reviewing, proofreading, and different stuff. And some 15 years or so ago, I joined Digital Mana.

And— but then soon after joining Digital Mana, or helping start this ministry, actually, I moved more to the administration aspects of the literature work. I have not been reviewing, translating much for the last 10 years or so. I have been doing some. But we are trying. Jacinto, the chairman, he's trying to help me focus my energy, my investment of time in Digital Mana, in maybe more like help prepare the younger generation of translators and— and people doing the actual work.

I feel like I don't have a whole lot of time anymore available to invest in the— in the work of Digital Mana. So we wanted to make it count the best we can. So working with the younger teams, the younger members of the team, is more what I'm trying to focus on. I do a little bit of translation or something sometimes, but not much. Yeah.

So if you've been involved with that for 28 years, I think you said, that means you would have started working in, I don't know what you would call it, literature, the literature world, fairly directly after your conversion then? Is that correct? Exactly. Actually, I was 16 soon after my conversion. My teacher at the school there, the school of the community, he introduced me first to the editorial work. You know, he was a writer.

He was involved in writing and the editorial work with publishing houses, Mennonite publishing houses, like Lamp & Light, and maybe even PLM here in Costa Rica, Publicadora La Merced, and others, running staff. And I started helping him with some specific tasks. You know, he was a writer. He could translate. He could do a lot, but he didn't have my Spanish, or I had the Spanish fluency of a native speaker. So he thought that I could help here and there a little bit.

So that was a very initial introduction, and that's where I started to learn some. I was still 16, you know? And then later, I would have been 18 or maybe 19 already when John Joder, now, what would you say, you know, he passed away some years ago. John Joder, he was a man of publishing houses. He was— he did a lot in the field of the editorial work, working with textbooks for schools and so many things. He was— again, I have been blessed by people like him and many others that really took an interest in me.

I suppose they saw some potential or something, and they took an interest, and they decided, "Hey, Keener, you need to be translating. Here's a project for you." I remember that first translation— translating project, or translation project. It was a little booklet from running staff called Dying to Live with Christ. He gave me that little project, and— and from there, things sort of picked up until I ended up working full-time for publishing houses for many, many years, yes. I really enjoyed it.

I was being paid to read books and learn a lot, and that was also shaping again. I mean, I remember reading, working on that little booklet, Dying to Live with Christ, and amazed by the lessons, by the truth. I mean, I was the first recipient of the message of the book itself in Spanish as I— as I was translating it. Oh, that's a neat thought. It was new for me. It was new for me. I mean, that— that basic truth of the Christian life was new to me. Yeah.

In many ways, I don't know how much I understood of it, but I was rapidly being exposed to a very important truth. So that was quite a blessing, quite a privilege, to be paid to translate this book and that book and learn a lot from— from it in the process. That's something I've been surprised at, being down here in Costa Rica.

It's my first time in the area, and seeing and hearing about all the different translation projects and the amount of publishing and work that's happening down here has been really interesting, because I didn't really know about any of it before, you know?

The one we were hearing about yesterday, I'm not sure how involved you are with this one, but translating The Martyr's Mirror into Spanish, which I was looking that up last night then, and it's— there's more words in The Martyr's Mirror than there is in the Bible, actually. Really? Yeah. It's over a million words or something like that. You know, just— 1.2 million. Okay. So 1.2, you know? So things like that, though. That's— that's really neat. And you're a part of that.

You know, you're part of those— those efforts and— Thanks, dude. Yes. It's a blessing to be a part of those efforts and to work with very committed teams here in Latin America. I don't know, would just say, if I may interview you now for a little bit, would just say that is the case with many Americans, many people in North America. They're— they're not hearing about all this literature projects in Latin America.

I mean, I— I don't— I don't know, you know, entirely, but at least for myself, oh, I had no concept of how much work has been done down here in this— in getting these things into Spanish. The— I don't remember the name because I don't speak Spanish, but the— the publication, the bi— every other month magazine that's been published. La Antorcha, we call it. Okay. Yeah. The Antorcha. Yeah. And that's been around for a while and all over, you know, Central and South America.

And that's phenomenal, you know, phenomenal, and a lot of work. And so someone's doing some— some good things there. And again, you're— you're part of that, though I know there's lots of different people doing these things. Yes. It's been a blessing. It has been very educational, integral in my formation as a Christian, the work I have been doing for these years. Again, we need— we need the exposure, if I may be that frank, and that is an area where you all can help us with.

The work is being done here in Spanish, but we— we need a lot of the support that— that usually comes from the states. None of this— none of these ministers are— well, they're ministries. They're not— they're— they're— they don't pay back, you know? So it's a big investment of time and money. Resources go out to people and hopefully bless people, impact the— the work of the kingdom. But that's just the way it works.

And yes, literature has been instrumental in kind of going forward ahead of church planting efforts in Latin America, opening doors, making contacts. I mean, or people making contacts with the churches here and the mission work due to literature. Now we're coming to a time— I— it seems to me— where the message is going out faster than people, you know? There was this time in history when information didn't move faster than people did, you know? Yeah. But that has changed so drastically.

So information is getting to all kinds of places, and it's becoming more and more crucial that efforts— our efforts— are directed at connecting people with people. So people are learning about us through literature, but the effort needs to be more and more centered on connecting people with people again.

And this is, again, a— this is a task where you all, as Anabaptist perspectives, can really contribute to, because simply putting people in all kinds of places in contact with Anabaptist people, in this case, is the— is the component, is the one piece that is— well, that's where the challenge resides, it seems to me, you know, in making those connections. Literature is getting there, and digital media is spreading the word to all kinds of places, very cost-effectively and— Yeah. —and so on and so forth.

But then we still need to connect with people. And once people— literature can give a bit of a face to people, but once people connect with people, they'll accept the literature way sooner. So it's, in a way, just as it was for me many years ago here in this community, it was the sense of belonging, it was the acceptance, it was the— the warmth that led me to the group and led me to a commitment.

There's still— there's still humans— human nature is still the same, and literature can guide us to people, but it'll be people that will guide us to commitment. Yeah. That— that's a really good point, because, like you said, information flows so much easier now than it has, you know, 100 years ago, say. Yes. But there's still that— that one piece that technology can never have, and that's the relationship.

That's the sitting down at a table and having a conversation together, which is one of the reasons we do these interviews in person, as much as we can, you know, because there's something about that relationship in person that's— technology has a lot of benefits, of course, you know, at getting information out, say, to people. But there's a piece there that you can never replace that relationship, you know? And a sense of belonging is one of our most basic foundational needs.

And if we can find that somewhere else, the information we receive can almost bypass our prefrontal cortex, you know, will— Yeah. Okay. I'm not advocating for deceiving people or misleading people at all. No, that's good. Yeah. But, you know, I came to this community many years ago. I found acceptance, a sense of belonging, people I could trust. And after some time of being exposed to that, well, whatever they say must be the truth, you know, because it's coming from the right source, you know?

So I'm ready to commit to this form of life and this system of beliefs and even the values, which were the hardest part, like I was saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just— it just gets me thinking, even the conversation we were having before we turned the cameras on, about it'd be great if more Anabaptist materials, especially digital ones, could be available in Spanish, you know? Maybe you could— you could be a part of that. I don't— I don't know what that could look like, but it's something that I'm thinking about.

I don't— I don't know what that can— what form that could take. But I know sometimes, even on this podcast, we'll get interaction comments from people, you know, that speak Spanish and say, "Well, we don't know the English very well." And so who— who are those people? Do they— can we connect them to churches, give them resources in their language? And that could go for any of the languages around the world, but I think Spanish is the one that's in front of us right now. This is something I think about a lot.

I— I would venture to say that it would be good if we Anabaptist outlets, you know, like Anabaptist perspectives, we as digital men, different people putting out these materials, would try to get to the— you know, we have focused for years, and this is— this is great, on publishing good material, sound doctrine, good biographers, good material.

And that's all great, but there's a lot of people there in very fragmented homes, a lot of people growing up, you know, for years now, society has been teaching this idea of life is about privilege— privileges and not responsibility, and you have your rights and all this humanism and— and so that is— that we're seeing the fruit more and more of a whole generation having been taught that way. And the levels of fragmentation, the levels of emotional pain in— in families in our society are extreme.

And I'm afraid sometimes some of these people from very broken homes, if they have a home at all, you know, children from divorced parents and things, have a little bit of a hard time identifying with our teaching, with our message, with our literature. It's just like not for them, you know? It seems to maybe even underline the— the fact that their homes are so broken and that their situation is so desperate. But if they learn about our ways of life, they can see that as very solid and be attracted to that.

I remember— remember being at a conference in Mexico one time, some— a few years ago, and I remember having helped the MZL people, Mount Zion literature, with their tables, their— their stand there. And to be honest, I was a little— a little embarrassed of our materials then, you know? They looked too plain. Some of the books from Ryan Staff and some of those materials, they looked too plain, not as colorful, not as attractive as what some of the other stands had, you know?

But the interesting thing is, when the time came for people to come buy from us, like after the initial presentation, the initial speech by someone there, I was amazed at the level of interest and the questions these people were asking. And it was obvious to me that they were connecting these plain-looking materials and covers and books and— and preliminary presentations, printings of different textbooks and things.

They were connecting that with a lifestyle that they, in turn, connected with truth or godliness or something, you know? I'm very interested in that. They were making these associations. I mean, like the colorful stuff, that doesn't represent the Christian values that I want for my family or something like that. So sometimes the plain message doesn't quite connect. But if— if the message can connect people with people, and then people can lead people to commitment.

I mean, that sounds maybe like a bit of a rambling, but. No, no. That's— that's— because you— yeah. And you've been part of this for— for a while, and I think that gives you some important pieces to contribute to the conversation of, like, how we use literature, how we communicate the message, your own story of that relational connection bringing you in to a church community. These are— these are important pieces that seem like they could apply in a lot of places around the world. They could apply.

It's a big challenge. And I heard this from you, how at Anabaptist perspectives you're concerned with that aspect. You want to— you want to point your audience, whatever that is, whatever they are, to churches and communities and people. And— Yeah. —and that's— that's great, because that'll be the determining factor, you know? And— Yeah. —and whether they come to a commitment in their Christian life or not. So, Kaner, we've covered a lot of different things in this interview.

What is one thing you wanted to talk about that we didn't get to yet today? So we have discussed Anabaptist lifestyle, Anabaptist communities, Anabaptist ministries, and people out there, you know? We haven't talked much about the Anabaptist movement itself. And again, I see potential there for ministries like yours and our ministry in digital mena to somehow lead out in setting the tone and— and— and having the conversations we Anabaptists need to be having among ourselves, you know?

Like, if we can forget about— we can forget— put to the side a little bit that the ministry, the evangelizing, the— the needs around us, and also think a little bit in the how the Anabaptist movement, 500 years after its origins, is facing unique challenges in history. This may sound awful to say, but we don't have persecution anymore to be that cohesive influence around us.

And thank God for the fact that we don't have persecution, but then we need to be more intentional about having the hard conversations and about bringing greater levels of understanding and clarity to— to our debates, let's say. Be even less afraid of debate itself. This has been a very Anabaptist thing, which is, again, great. We are— we look down on polemics, to use a stupid term, and heated debates and things. That's all great. That aligns very well with the keen and values, you know?

But on the other hand, we should also be able to have the hard conversations in— in this— in a good spirit. And I see— I think what you're doing is— is phenomenal in many ways, because that's what you're doing. You're having conversations with people. So if you can have interesting, engaging conversations, mature conversations, even about topics that can be a little touchy or difficult, you would be setting the tone.

You'll be leading out in this new endeavor, maybe, and— and making the whole idea of discussing ideas and engaging more— more normal, making it seem more normal for the Anabaptist world. I mean, here we have some people we respect, Anabaptist perspectives, with— with some history, some trajectory, and then you bring that element to your presentations, your episodes a little bit. I think the whole Anabaptist community could benefit from the example, you know?

Maybe even more than from the content itself, depending on what the subject is, of course. But— Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we want to do some of that. Of course, we don't— the editorial work is a little different, but in our conversations as we travel. So when you are in the literature ministry, that opens doors for you, you know? If you travel, if you visit churches in South America or something, the literature becomes this forerunner, you know, that gets there before you do.

So when you visit this community, they'll be interested in discussing certain topics, not just about the— the literature you're publishing, but also about church life, about family life, about the challenges that our youth are facing, and so many other areas.

So we become— we ministries, like in the literature ministry, and I'm— I'm assuming that your ministry too, we become— the ministry puts us in this unique position where we— we become influencers, let's say, in the Anabaptist movement as to what the tone is going to be, what the conversations are going to be, what the level of engagement is going to be. And we better— we better set a good example then. That's a— that's a good note to end us on. And, Kaner, I just want to say thanks for— Sure.

—being willing to share your story and some of the lessons you've learned. And I also want to bless you in— in your ministry and the work you all do here. I— maybe there will be ways in the future we can work together. I— I would really enjoy that. I think we have a lot to learn from— from you and what you're doing down here. So I want to bless you in that. Well, thank you. And keep up the good work. And what you're doing is great too, so. Thanks for coming to Costa Rica, noticing us here in this little place.

Thank you for having me. I'd love to hear. Thank you so much, Kaner. Thanks for listening to this interview with Kaner. If you enjoyed this, you might want to listen to this other interview we did with Phil Yoder, where he tells the story of how the Mennonite churches got started down here in Costa Rica. And you can find that episode linked in the description down below. Anabaptist Perspectives is a listener-supported podcast, and we appreciate your support.

If you like what we do here, please subscribe to this channel and let others know about what we do. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.