For 37 Years, I Thought My Church Made Me a Christian. It Didn't. — Raymond Burkholder

Lesson Transcript

My understanding was to be born in this specific family, in this specific conference, as long as you do what the Church says. Then you were a Christian. So I was born a Christian, a Mennonite Christian. The third night, I couldn't hold out any longer. When the invitation was given, I literally ran up to the altar. I said, "Lord, I don't care what it costs, I don't care where it takes me. I repent of my sin. I'm calling upon You to come into my heart and save me.

Whatever You want me to do, like Paul said, what would You have me do? I'm Yours." Raymond, I've known you over the years in missions, right? Because you've done a lot of things in missions and traveled and done... Yes. You've been to a lot of places, right? You wrote a book about it, which we'll get into that later. But as I'm reading through the book, I was learning some new things about your story. And it wasn't always that way for you. Like, you weren't always in missions.

So can you start us at the beginning of your story? Were you raised in a Mennonite home? You know, were you religious growing up? But yeah, tell me about what were spiritual matters like for you growing up. Look, that's a really good question, Reagan. I grew up in an old-order, conservative Mennonite church at Weaverland Conference. Both my wife and I grew up in that kind of a church setting. Now, in our home, my home and my wife's home, we had wonderful parents.

I learned a lot from my father, but he was not a spiritual man. I rarely remember my father reading the Bible. He was a very busy man on the farm. Sometimes on a Sunday evening, I remember Dad getting a big old white family Bible and sitting down and reading. But he never had anything to say about what he read. We did not have family devotions. Nothing like that. At mealtime, we would, yes, Dad would say, "Put your hands down." Now, that meant silent prayer.

And so for me, as a young man growing up, a boy growing up, I would scan over the food and try and decide which dish I want to delve into first. But Dad and Mother were very good parents. There's a lot of things that I learned from my father. One that who I am today has a lot of credit to my father. My father was hardworking, and we started early, 4:30 in the morning. Go get them cows and milk them cows. And he always taught us children that what is worth doing is worth doing with all your heart and doing it right.

If we didn't do a job that he assigned us to correctly, right, the first time, there was corporal punishment. And when you got corporal punishment from Dad, once was all it took. It was pretty serious. And so Dad taught me, "Whatever you do." Now, it wasn't today, I would say, "Do it wholeheartedly as unto the Lord." But for Dad, it wasn't unto the Lord. But he was a good Dad. We just knew Dad loved us and cared for us. He provided for us. Unfortunately, though, he was not a spiritual man.

Mother was the spiritual pillar in the home. By the way, she just died recently at 101 years of age. Whoa. Yeah. Just three weeks ago, we buried her. She was faithful to the Lord right up to I talked to her about her soul, and she said, "Ray," I was always Ray in the home, "I want to go. I can't wait to go and meet my dear Jesus." I would read Scripture to her, and she'd quote it right with me, right up to her dying day. Amazing mind. Yes. So I'm very grateful to my parents. They taught us many, many things.

Work hard, all in and all there. Do it with all your heart. And who I am today has a lot to do with that, but it's in Christ Jesus now. Yeah, I've known you for, I don't know, I can't even remember when we first met, but that's the thing that's always stuck out to me. Just like you're an all-in kind of person. Like that energy, that vision, that passion. With your whole heart. Yeah, yeah. But... That I learned from my dad.

You're telling, but you're describing something that was maybe, that you maybe go through the motions of spiritual things, but it doesn't sound like, was it real? Or was it just, this is just kind of a culture, a tradition? Tell me about that. Yeah. The latter. It was just the tradition. My dad, many, many years later, after I challenged my dad if he knows the Lord, he only found the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior when he was my age, about 75. 73, 75.

And he said, "Ray, it was your life that made the great change that God wrought in your life." And you rolled about it, you talked about it, that made him look inward. And he realized he had never been born again. He said, "Thank you." Then when I turned my heart to him, he said, "Well, you know, Ray," he said, "I wasn't a very good father. I wasn't there for spiritual things. I'm sorry about that." But he said, "I only did what I learned from my father." Oh, yeah. So it was a generational thing.

And his corporal punishment was a good kick on the backside with a big boot, with a lot of energy. And I found out through my cousins that their fathers in the Burkholder side had a similar corporal punishment. And so I understand he followed in his footsteps of his father. In a Baptist Perspectives has been publishing material for nine years. Essays, regular podcasts, the Frank Reid series, and this summer, the Anabaptist Origins documentary series.

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You know, like, what did that look like? That's a real good question, Reagan. Yes, my understanding was to be born in this specific family, in this specific conference, as long as you do what the Church says. But even my father didn't always do that. He tried. And then you were a Christian. So I was born a Christian, a Mennonite Christian. That was my context. That was what I really believed. Now, I think that has changed a lot in homes in that setting. Yes, so that's where I was at.

So the next question is going to be, how did you find, how did you find out otherwise that you're not a Christian? Like, that must have been a surprise. But in that process, do you just, you go on with life, you're busy, you, I think what, you started working the farm then with your dad at some point. That's right. Get married, etc. You're just doing regular life. Like, for how long did that, was that the case for you in your life? Good question.

So when I turned 20, my father said, "Look, you're on the payroll now. If you want to, you work for me and I'll pay you." Now, before that, let's back up a few years. My older brother was in the home and was at home and was helping Dad. Then the 1W service, the Vietnam War was going and he was being drafted, so he went off in 1W service. I was in high school, the effort of high school. And I loved school. I was active in the Future Farmers of America. And I loved that.

And learning came, I was actually in college prep. Learning came relatively easy for me. And I loved education and learning. And I wanted to graduate from high school. But my dad said, when I was actually backing up a few years now, I was 17, I think, 16 or 17. I think I was 16. I'm not exactly sure on the age. I don't recall. But he said, "Look, I need help at home on the farm. Now, if you want an education, you go ahead.

I'll get some other help, outside help, a hired person." But he said, "If you come home and work for me, I will buy you a car, the car of your dreams, whatever you want." And those were the days of the muscle cars. I knew what I wanted. "And you work for me, I'll pay the car, and you can back up to the gas pump, and you can go with the young folks and have a good time." Well, that was a no-brainer for this old-order Mennonite, carnal Mennonite boy. I dropped out of school. Now, I want to be gracious here.

And Dad did. If you want to know the rest of the story on the car, look in... I was going to say... Look into the book. It's in the book. There's a picture of your car. It's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, this is..." I had a muscle car. He did what he said. A nice muscle car there. I wouldn't do that today. Sure. But I did that then, yes. Yeah. And Dad meant well. Dad and I had a good relationship, yes. So you're working for your dad. Are you being pretty successful on the farm? Is life feeling like it's going good? Yeah.

I thought I'm going to be a farmer. Dad took me into a partnership with him. It was a very gracious move, which really got me started financially. I bought half the cows, the equipment. And now I'm marrying. I found my wife in my chumming around years. And how long did this go on? I mean, you're just, you're living life, and Christianity isn't ever real for you. Like, are you going to church every Sunday? And like... Going to church.

And my children said they, well, my oldest one clearly said they, well, remember Dad would come to church. He would position himself, fold his arms, and catch up on sleep. We worked hard. We baled a lot of hay bales, threw them up into the mile by hand. So Sunday, I'm sorry, I regret this, but it was a time to catch up on some sleep. Yeah, that's pretty wild. It's unfortunate. It's nobody's fault but my own that I didn't find the Lord until I was 37 years of age.

You have like a whole career almost in farming and business and all of this. Yes. And successful. And yet, you're still going through the motions, so to speak. Like, you go to church on Sunday. I'm going to church, going through the motions. Wow. And I missed it. And I don't fault my dad. I don't fault anyone but myself. Until you're 37. How did that happen? Well, yeah. Like, what breaks some? And I think that's the question that's going to resonate with a lot of people because it can be kind of easy.

You're just going through the motions and everything's whatever. By the way, were you baptized and everything? Like, you were a church member and... I was made wet as a sinner, yes. But you were still a member. They called me a member, but I wasn't born again. No, no, no, no. You went through all the... Communion. External motions. You're right, yes. Boy, that must have been... Well, I mean, yeah, we need to get into that then. That must have been a shock when suddenly you realize this isn't even real.

Like, you're not a real Christian. No, that's right. I mean, what happened? It was a great awakening. It was a great awakening. I mean, what caused you to realize, whoa, like for 37 years, I'm not even a Christian? That's the right question, Reagan. So we, my wife and I had a relatively pure courtship. No sexual sins. It's only by the hand of God that protected us. But there was another factor. My wife-to-be, Naomi, her home was more spiritual.

But what really influenced her was in the public school, she had a teacher, public school now, that would teach the Sunday school lessons to the school children at about 15 or, she's not sure, 14, 15 or something like that. She surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ and became a real Christian. She began praying, reading the Bible. But I didn't know this at the time. She was a real Christian. We got married in my unsaved condition, and let's call her a babe in Christ. And that's who she was.

And we got married and she all of a sudden realized we didn't really have prayer, Bible reading together in our courtship or dating years. She all of a sudden realized that she has an ungodly husband. The places we went like tractor pulls and snowmobile races and all kinds of stuff like that. She was concerned about this and she started praying for my salvation. She knew I wasn't saved. That must have been a bit of a shock for her too. This is a story in itself right here. Wow.

I never knew it, but she began to pray for my salvation. She never preached. And this is where there's a really good story. 1 Peter 3:1, where a virtuous woman by her conversation, her lifestyle can win an ungodly husband. She did it. She prayed for my salvation for 14 years. Never preached, never nagged, never. She only honored, reverenced, and respected me and prayed for me. I never knew it until afterwards. That's a real story. That's phenomenal. That's patience and faithfulness right there. Amazing.

Amazing woman, I tell you. This is so important because it is easy to just go through the motions. Yes. So what happened that I got saved? Yeah. When I was 18 years of age, a young man taught me how to play guitar. And we began to sing together. He sang the baritone. His brother came on. Once again, you want the whole story? It's right here. His brother came on. He sang tenor and we had a group. We called ourselves the Gospel Trio. But you're not even a Christian. And neither is one of the other members.

That is a wild thing. He got saved. The tenor singer, Aaron Hurst, got saved first. Altara Praise Studio. You know the studio. Yeah. He got saved first. Our music began to change and more gospel music. And my wife is praying for me. And so in 1987, Gospel Express, Nelson Koblenz, came through and had his first tent meetings at Martin's Sales Table, east of Intercourse. Why did we go? The music. The music was very similar to what the Gospel Trio was singing by now.

We started with country and Western, but we started moving towards gospel. Somehow we knew we shouldn't be singing that stuff. And Aaron is saved now. Aaron does the sound at that tent meeting. First night, I thought, well, you know, they would sing. And I thought, well, I can handle the preaching. Just another boring sermon in my mind, but I was wrong. Nelson Koblenz had an anointing of the Spirit of the living God upon him. I came under conviction the first night.

I knew that I had not experienced what he was talking about. I knew it with all my heart. But I'm a religious man now. And there's a lot of people in this tent that know me. I couldn't bow my heart. No. But on the way home, I said, honey, there's something going on in my heart here. It was Sunday night, first night. Monday night, we went back. And boy, again, I came under conviction. And I said, honey, we're going to keep going. We milk the cows early. I'm farming now. We're farming.

We have taken over the farm now. Dad has retired and we've taken over. Now, we didn't own the farm, but we were renting it from Dad. And the third night, I couldn't hold out any longer. When the invitation was given, I literally run up to the altar. I said, Lord, I don't care what it costs. I don't care where it takes me. I repent of my sin. I'm calling upon you to come into my heart and save me. And whatever you want me to do, like Paul said, what would you have me do? I'm yours.

It looked to me like a blank piece of paper. Nothing on it. The Lord was saying, trust me. Sign down here. And that's what it looked like to me. So I said, okay, Lord, I'm going to sign in the red ink of the blood of Jesus. And I signed. The next morning, I tell you what, everything was different. The sun was brighter, the grass was greener, the trees were more beautiful. And my wife, above all, was more beautiful than ever. And my children. For the first time ever, I sat down at the breakfast table.

I got my Bible. I got my Bible. And I said, family, we're going to have family devotions. I never thought it before. Never once. Never seen my dad do it. I just opened my Bible and I said, I don't know how to do this. And they were all just sitting there because they had a new papa. They were probably a little confused. And my wife had a new husband. My goodness. And you know, Brother Reagan, I had no Bible knowledge. If you would have asked me to turn to the book of Matthew, I'd have went like this.

I'd have went just like this. Honey, where's the book of Matthew? I had no Bible knowledge. Had you read it? Really? Maybe I looked at it a time or two, but nothing period. Nothing systematically whatsoever. So that must have been a whole new thing. You start reading. It was everything was just like the scripture says, the old things passed away and the new had come. That's exactly how it was. And you're basically picking up the Bible and reading it for the very first time then. That's correct. That's correct.

But there's something I did. And I think I got it from Nelson. I don't really know where I got it. I chose right at that moment to put away all the farming magazines, all the snowmobiling magazines. I did a lot of self-taught machinist work. I had a little machine shop. All that stuff, the daily newspaper, everything. I put it away. And I focused exclusively only on the word of God. I started reading my Bible faithfully. Three chapters in the Old Testament and one chapter in the New Testament daily.

I'm still doing that now for more than 34 years. You're still doing it. I'm still doing it. Oh my. I read through the Bible every year. My wife does too. That was the wisest thing I did. Just get into the word of God. Yes. And that's what God used to lead us forward into the next phase of our life. The blank contract. One of the first things that Jesus wrote in there. I had signed it. Yeah. Sell the cows. Whoa. Whoa. Okay. I have a work for you. I clearly immediately sensed a call. Whoa, whoa. Okay. So you're 37.

Yeah. So your whole adult life to this point has been the farm. That's it. That's your work. That's, I mean, in a way that had to have felt kind of your identity almost, right? Like this is, you're known for this in the community. This is what you do. And God's always following it. And my father was a renowned father, farmer in the community. He was well known. He had the straightest corn rows. He had the biggest corn. He had, it was a very progressive, successful farmer. And I was following in his footsteps.

And I was well on the way. He took me into a partnership. And I was just, I figured I'm going to be a dairy farmer all my life. And you're probably doing success. I mean, you're successful. Very successful. How soon does God tell you to sell the cows? I mean, that must have been a jolt. By 1990, '87 is when we made this. My wife rededicated her life to the Lord Jesus at the same tent meetings. Our 12-year-old daughter got saved. We were a whole new family in Christ. Everything was different. And my mouth was open.

My tongue was loose. Just like Zachariah when he said his name is John. John the Baptist. And I couldn't shut up. And some people said, you still haven't learned to shut up. And they started saying, you'll get over it. You'll soon get over it. You'll get over it. But I didn't. I mean, you know, that was a long time ago. And I know you're good enough. Nope. You're still, to God be the glory. To God be the glory. It was a work of him right from the get-go. It was a work of God in Christ Jesus.

But then it's like, you have this huge change. You're telling me things in your life that are start changing. You start reading through the Bible, through the entire Bible every year, which is, I mean, that's a lot of reading. And you've been doing that ever since. So that, I mean, you're having family devotions, etc. And then it's like, are you describing like God slowly pulling out pieces of your life that were like significant to you? I mean, selling the cows must have, again, that must have been a jolt.

He gave direction through the reading and study of the word. I'm not a pastor. I'm not a Sunday school teacher. I'm just a pew warmer, most of the time sleeping ahead of this time. Everything changed from that moment on. Total transformation. Yes. To God be the glory. Yes. Sell the cows. Now, Gospel Express asked me to get involved in the Gospel Express ministry, go along as a volunteer into prisons.

We traveled with Gospel Express in those early years to Bluntstown, Florida, to Samerna, Delaware, as a volunteer now. Also to Huttonsville, Westbury. We did a lot of traveling with. And I started hearing things like in the prisoners saying, are you a preacher? No, of course not. I'm not a preacher. I'm a farmer. But God was doing something and putting a little bug in my ear that he has something for us in the future. And we had signed the blank contract. So we sold the cows. We sold the equipment. We moved off.

And I had a secondary business. When I was 21 years of age, dad bought a snowmobile. There was a craze went through the community. And dad got me started on high-performance snowmobiles. He had the first one. And so he wanted, he took it to the local dealer to work on it to make it not only perform as it ought to, but even a little more than that. You know, a little more juiced up, you might say. And I told my dad, I said, dad, that mechanic in there, you know, I could do everything he's doing.

And dad said I had a natural ability, human ability now in mechanics. And I said, I could do everything that that mechanic is doing. He said, okay. And he bought me a good set of tools. Told me, there's my snowmobile. Make it go fast. And that's how I got wrapped up in, took me down the wrong road for many years. So you had high-performance snowmobiles. That's like a side gig, a side business. You asked a question about hobbies. That was a hobby. It started as a pleasure thing, but it became a business.

By the time we were walking away from the farm and the cows, the equipment, we also had a thriving business that was every bit as profitable as the farm. We had a lot of things going for us. And God says, I want you to wash your hands of all of it. I have something else for you. There's a story in the book how I was snowmobiling up in New York. I read this story. No, tell it. It wasn't getting it. I had missed something I thought. And so, and by now, you know, they were good brothers. I was with church brothers.

It was not an evil or wicked or sinful party time. No, no, no. We were having fellowship. The brothers all knew the Lord. And I said, I'm going to go in the room next door and I'm going to take this machine apart and figure in my mind. And as I started, the Lord showed up in that little motel room. And the Lord said, you know why that machine isn't running the way it's supposed to? I said, no, Lord. I knew it was the Lord. Tell me. I want you to sell it. I want you to sell the machine.

I want you to get off the farm. Wash your hands of the business, everything. I have something for you. I have a work for you. And it can only be yours if you surrender and give all that up. I got down beside the bed. I wept like a baby. I said, Lord, I don't care what it costs. That was my, I don't care where it takes me. That was my commitment in the first place. At the altar when I signed the blank contract. Thus the Lord was telling me what he has for us. I came home from that trip.

By the way, the next morning, the machine worked just fine. I came home from that trip. I said, honey, the next item to go is the business. The snowmobile and the business. Yeah. And she stood with me the whole way through. She never resisted. I mean, her future, our income, everything went way down. Ended up working at a hardware store. We still don't know what the Lord has for us. Wait a minute. You went from running a farm and having a very successful side business to all of that is now gone.

Like, did you move off the farm? We bought a little bungalow house. I guess it would be in the Everett area. We only lived there two years. And in that time, I was working at the hardware store is when God made it clear the call to church planting work in Grenada with Ollie Branch Mennonite missions. Rest of the story. I feel like I'm advertising the book. It's a good book and people should buy it. I think it's the, I mean, really. God be the glory.

But that's like, I'm just reading that story and I was at that spot where you're describing in your, in your, it's an autobiography essentially, right? Where, yeah, you do sell out of, or you get rid of everything at the farm and you're, you're out and you're working at a hardware store. You know, that must have just, that time of life, that transition had, had to have been difficult. Like, tell me about that.

It was difficult, but there was a promise that God had put out there that the, the reality of that coming to pass was an air of excitement. I don't want to miss it. But there's a cost. It's complete sacrifice, surrender, yield, give it all up. Yeah. Empty vessels. Because the, the, the principle is clear in scripture that God fills with all of him and his spirit empty vessels. And that part of it was excitement. This is going to be an adventure. This is going to be exciting. And it has been.

It has been a thrilling adventure. It has taken us around the globe so many times that some people think that Raymond's dizzy. It has caused me to tremble many times how easily I could have missed it by just hanging on to one little aspect. Maybe the snowmobile. That was the hardest one. My wife loved the cows. Our children loved to milk the cows. Our eldest daughter, they would milk the cows. I was working up in the shop, souping up with somebody's snowmobile. Yeah.

I loved the wrenches and the power and the performance of the snow machines. And my, my, my children, especially my wife, she missed, it was hard for her to see the cows go. But of course, with that went the milk check. Yeah. Like your income. And our wives love security. Yes. Right. She has stood with me. She has never pulled back. That must have felt like you go to work at a hardware store. I mean, did it feel like you're on, like the stability has been pulled out from under you or did it just. Absolutely.

I was a self-made man on the farm and the business. Right. Right. Well, yeah. So you've never even been at a typical employer. Like you basically had your own thing this whole time. Again, that must have been a joke. I had to relearn a whole, I had to newly learn a whole new entity of business. But I purposed, I'm going to learn. But we were only there, not even, I was only, not even a year when the call to Grenada through Ollie Branch and our home church sending agency, send us, became very clear.

Talk to me about that. Because, yeah, that's the transition you've been describing, right? From getting out of these things. And then I'm sure in retrospect you can see, oh, that was God preparing you for that. Yes. Right. So how did that call happen? The call to missions? We knew it was at first, due to our background, the only call, I knew that the, my wife and I both knew the call was going to be something to do with preaching.

Due to the, in the prison crusades, the prisoners would say preaching and teaching the word of God. I knew it was going to have something to do with the word of God. But the only avenue that we knew was in a home church ministry because missions was not something that was in our radar at all. My father would say that those people that go off to missionaries, they say they're mission, they want to be missionaries, they're too lazy to work. Yeah. And so that mission was not in our radar.

But as time went on and we began to realize, well, if our work that God had for us, which he had clearly made clear, was at home, we wouldn't need to sell the cows. Well, the snowmobiles would be okay too. Maybe not the racing, but it would be okay. And so God began to witness that it's going to be a missionary work. It became very clear. And so how did it all come to pass? We were at a spring conference at a local, it was a group of churches were together.

And I don't remember who the speaker was, but it was sort of a missions emphasis conference. Jay Fox from Fairview Street got up and said, God needs missionaries. Now we're sitting there, my wife and I, we have sensed the call very clearly. He's, but we were not going to push ourselves forward. So we had decided that when God makes it clear, it'll be a tap on the shoulder from somebody. My wife is out with the baby. Janna is the baby, our youngest one. She's out with the baby. Jay Fox gets up.

God is calling missionaries tonight. He said he has learned that many people are waiting for someone to come and literally tap them on the shoulder. Boom. My ears and my eyes perked because that was us. And he said, if you have sensed a call and you're waiting for that tap, I have tapped you on the shoulder today. That really got my attention. And he said, come and talk to me after the service. My wife is out with the baby. She comes back with the baby. And I told her what transpired, what had happened.

I said, did he or didn't he? Yes, he did, but he didn't. We were oscillating what to do. Finally, we said, let's pray about it. So we prayed. And here's what we prayed, Reagan. We prayed, Lord, if that was you, then we are not going to purposefully pursue Jay Fox. You will just make us happen to meet. And amen. In Jesus' name, amen. And we started fellowshipping. There were over 300 people there. And it's time to get pickup, springtime, pick up our jackets at the coat hangers.

We picked them up and we come to the door. Well, guess who is standing broadside in the door? Jay Fox. That's how it happened. We told him that we have sensed the call. Later, Jay Fox told us that we, my wife and I, were the only couple that came forth. It was a divine appointment, there's no doubt. And that's how we, Jay Fox was the chairman of the Ollie Branch board. So we began the process.

And in 1993, in the month of June, we moved to Grenada to serve as a pastor in a little fledging church, missionary church there. We stayed with Ollie Branch until it was in native leadership. That would have been 12 and a half years we served there. Now we're moving into another section. Wow. So you lived in Grenada for over a decade. That's right. I didn't realize that. So you're into the early 2000s, I guess. We committed to the Lord to stay with the church until it was in native leadership.

And God honored that. But the native pastor was only, I worked myself, by the grace of God, worked herself out of a job. He was only the pastor for just about 11 months. He went, he was a deep sea fisherman diver, went out to sea one day, never came back. Read the story. It's all in there. So we, we were home on furlough over that time. Eventually, we then went back and stayed with the church. So that's, it was a death of a vision. Yeah. A dream. Yeah. Yeah, we were there from June of 1993 to December of 2005.

What did you do after that? Like you have the experience in Grenada and you feel like, okay, that's kind of wrapped up. But like I would know you more from the missions experience you got after that. Like did someone, did you have another call? Like someone asked you to get involved with something? How do you know what to do after you spend so much time invested in a place? That's a good question, Reagan. Yeah. We loved the tropics, we loved green, we loved the people. We were actually thinking of retiring there.

In 2005, yeah. But somewhere around, I'm not sure, we were becoming a little disillusioned because the church really wasn't growing. And in and around that time, Luke Kipfer asked me to go with him. You know who Luke is? No, I don't. You don't? No, I don't think I met him. He was the founding visionary for GTO to Asia. And we went to Asia. I went to Asia with him. And when we got to India, it was Kotak India. It was in 2002. The coordinator there had asked for an international missionary school.

So a number of us American pastors, teachers went. And when we got there, the coordinator said that when he put out the word that there's going to be a missionary training school, there were 700 leaders and emerging leaders that signed up. And due to the venue and the funding, he had to turn away 600 of them. I said, wait a minute. You're telling me there's 600 men wanted to attend this conference and you turned them away? He said, that's correct. We're only going to have 100.

God took those 600 men that wanted Bible teaching and training on evangelism and missionary principles, church planting also, and wrote on my heart, there is a need here for a ministry to do this kind of teaching and training. And at that point, we had sensed a call to move away from Grenada and we were waiting for further direction. God used those 600 men that were not able to give me the vision of what became MTM. And what is MTM? Macedonian Teaching Ministry, sorry.

The vision of MTM was to equip and train native pastors and leaders that they would teach other men also. Timothy 2:2, where Paul told Timothy, those things you have heard of me and faithful men, find faithful men, teach them that they may teach others also. That's our theme verse. And that they would go and reach their own unreached peoples. And that's where the vision of MTM. And at the same time, God had put a vision on Val Yoter's heart to start what became IGO. Ah, yeah, that's true.

That would have been around the same time, right? IGO starts in 2000 and what, five, six? Six, something like that. Yeah. Five, six. We were going to be part of the original team when Rick and Val moved over. Oh, okay. But due to our youngest daughter wanted to graduate from Fairview Christian School, so I said, okay, we're not going to go until you have graduated. So we joined then in 2008.

And so that's how MTM and Val and I met about that time shortly thereafter and shared our visions and Val suggested MTM would come become part. It didn't even have any name then. Neither did the Bible Institute become part of the same IGO. And so MTM became the international global aspect of the IGO classroom. So you end up moving over in 2008. That's right. And you're there with Val and Rick and whatever, you know, and you're just part of the IGO school. Well, the first pastor was Collier. Okay. Collier Berkshire.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And Val said, while you're waiting for, our purpose from the beginning was never to push ourselves forward, but to wait till invitations come. We assumed it would take a couple years for sufficient invitations to keep me busy going to do these training conferences. And Val said, in the meantime, you teach in the IGO classroom. And so I taught in the IGO classroom for Genesis for seven years, Corinthians for six years, while MTM got started and fledged. Yeah.

So ultimately, we were with MTM for 14 years then. IGO MTM, 14 years. And so you're living at, you moved to Thailand then. We moved to Thailand. We moved to Thailand in August of 2008. Between Grenada and IGO, we were at home for two years, reconnected with our home church, our supporting constituency, did some PR work, the vision of what MTM is all about.

In a nutshell, MTM is basically mobilize and equip and train native leaders that they would go and teach their own churches and people to reach the unreached, the global unreached, which like 97% of those are in Southeast Asia, Asian Southeast, 97 to 98 of the unreached. So that's why you chose, like you moved there because that's incredibly strategic. And then you, so you're traveling around all over Southeast Asia then doing these trainings and teachings. You don't have to go across the big pond every time. Wow.

I was only two to three hours away from India. I think a two-hour flight to India. I mean, this took us to Pakistan. This took us to all over India, all over Nepal, all over Myanmar. Through invitations, we never pushed ourselves forward. Yeah. That was a wonderful experience. That must have been quite the 14-year experience. It was an adventure. Young people want to venture. Look what God will do. Not all of it was, but not all of it was easy. And we had threats on our lives. And yeah, but God is faithful.

He kept us going. So we're kind of big picture of the things you've done in missions, but I'd like to get, maybe if you give us a specific example, think of maybe a story or something that really stands out from your time in missions that you could share with us. Okay. Northeast India, I think it is, it is Nagaland, and which is like a high Christian state of India. It's not like mainland India. And we had the venue of the conference was going to be over, no, we're not in Nagaland, I'm sorry. We're in Bhutan.

We're in the Buddhist country of Bhutan. And the venue was canceled over here. And there is a church that was under GFA, Gospel for Asia. And the pastor there was Victor. And unfortunately, I took some pictures of MTM teaching in his church and I didn't ask permission. And it was my bad. And he got upset. See, Bhutan is a very restricted Buddhist kingdom. And he got upset with me and he, and I told him, I'm back home now. I put those pictures on the internet. It was my bad. It was all my bad.

I felt so bad because it exposed him. And it could have been persecution to his church and his people. I said, brother, I am so sorry. Please forgive me. And he was very upset. He said, if you ever come back to Bhutan, I'm going to kill you. He was really upset. He did not accept my apology. Well, the coordinator that I was working with a year later said, please come. What do I do? I laid it before the Lord and it seemed the Lord said, go.

And I told the coordinator, and he knew Victor, that was his name, and he said, he'll make sure nothing happens. And so I went. First day, no problem. Second day, as I am finishing teaching with my guest teacher is with me, here comes my good friend, not Victor. I seen him come in the door. I knew him right away. And I could see he is loaded for bear. I said, Lord, I'm yours. I'm all yours. I walked back there. I went right to him and I shook his hand and I gave him a hug, if I remember correctly.

And he started laying into me. I thought, let's get this over with real quick. He started, I said, look, could we go to a private room to discuss this? And the coordinator came along and we shut the door to the room. I said, my friend, I am so sorry. Please forgive me. And I said, I was all wrong. I took the low road, took ownership to my wrong. And Victor said, Pastor Raymond, sure, I forgive you. But before he got that said, the coordinator started laying into him. I thought they're going to have a fistfight.

The coordinator said, you are troubling my tourist. You know that's against Bhutanese law. You're troubling a tourist. That's against law. I could have you thrown in prison. They started having it out. And I finally said, whoa, I said, whoa, brothers. Whoa, we're brothers. This is not right. I told the coordinator, back off. I said, Victor, do you forgive me? Yes, I forgive you. I'm happy to forgive you. We hugged and all was well. Then it wasn't all over.

You know, God honors us when we take the low, God shows up when we take the low road in humility. The coordinator, he said, Victor, now I'm sorry. Will you forgive me? I was wrong. It was a divine appointment meeting and there was total restitution and reconciliation in that room. It was beautiful. It was beautiful. God taught me something there. Humility. God is drawn to the humble and peacemakers. Yes. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. Yeah.

Because you've been in so many different places around the world that are, that aren't places that have peacemakers or they need peacemakers. Yeah. Right. Those are hard things to walk through though. But God shows up and gives grace by his spirit. Today, all three, we're friends. We're all friends. Everything is good. That's a kind of a bizarre story. That's just one story. Well, you've been doing this for what, 30 something years? 34 years. 34 years.

You'd have, you'd have, you have so many stories of all these places. This is only touched the, touches the, there's nothing in here in our time with Christian Aid in Indonesia. So you served at Grenade with Olive Branch for 12 years. You know, you're with IGO for 14 years and Macedonian Teaching Ministries. You mentioned CAMS in there. Wow. Like six. That was, that was between Grenada and before we went to Indonesia. Before we went to Thailand. I'm sorry. We served with CAM in 2006 and 2007.

That was serving with CAM as spiritual leaders and house parents to the rebuilding program that CAM had after the tsunami and day after Christmas in 2004. Yeah. And Christian Aid was doing a rebuilding project. We served as house parents, spiritual leaders, and my wife was the cook for the teams. Yeah.

Just the range of experience you've had and like, I'm sure the amount of people you've interacted with in all the different countries and oh my, I'm sure there's so many lessons there that you've learned and that life experience. That's phenomenal, you know? Then during the COVID years with I-58 in Greece, Arab refugee ministry and Farsi speaking refugee. You know what Farsi speaking refugee? From Iran. Iran. I still have good connections to church leaders from Iran. They're not in Iran right now.

I am dialoguing with them almost continually on the Iranian, Israel, America, Trump situation. That's interesting hearing their perspective. That's a complicated mess right there. That's a complicated mess. Yes.

So as you have had this experience with, say, the global church, I guess you could call it, like, are there particular insights and things that you have learned from that experience that you could distill down that you have gained, that you have learned from that wide range of interactions of God's church all around the world? Yes. I'm sure that's hard to boil down into something concise, but. You know, at IGO, the students used to say, Raymond, narrow that down to a one-liner.

You always teach and preach in freight liners. Okay. And so I learned, I'm still trying to learn for one-liner. Here is a one-liner that I would suggest in answering your question to these, what I've learned from the Asian church or the global church. They do so much in evangelism and missions for God's glory in church planting with so little, while we in our Anabaptist church, I don't want to be critical here, we have so much and perhaps do so little. Yeah. Yeah, because Southeast Asia.

That's why it's an honor to work with them. They do so much with so little. That includes training and the dollar. That's why one brother said, MTM with the minimal cost to train them and teach them the all things of Christ, it's a lot of bang for the buck. That's a business term. Big bang for the buck. It don't take much. And then they go and reach their own unreached people group. I could tell one story after the next, how they caught a vision.

Lord willing, that's going to be book number two, more book on the teaching material. Yes. You need to keep writing. Lord willing. You need to keep writing books. Yep. We need more good books. Yes. Well, you know, keep writing the books. I'm working on it. Lord willing. Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, it really does. They do so much with so little why, unfortunately, perhaps, notice I'm saying, I don't want to be critical. Perhaps we do so little with so much. And we have much.

I mean, Southeast Asia, I mean, that's generally speaking, one of the more poor regions in the world. Exactly. At least, I mean, it depends on the country, but like, there's really poor there, but yet you see all this incredible work being done by the churches there. It's amazing how they catch a vision to reach their own unreached people. And you know, most of the men that attended our conferences and Bible schools speak seven to ten languages fluently. They're good to go. Wow. Yeah. That's.

They need some encouragement and they need, and you know, we, you know, and we weren't teaching anything or preaching anything new in our churches that would be new to our church, but the most common phrase was, we have never heard it before or in this way. And really what they were saying, I challenged these pastors, well, what are you really saying when you say that? They said, right like this, the message behind the message speaks louder than the message. Now, what is the message behind the message? The life.

The testimony of the marriage. The testimony of the life in Christ Jesus. It's powerful. And that shouts amen to the message that's being preached. The message behind the message is the Christian life. With passion and excitement, it matches what is being preached. We would say, why don't he practice what he preached? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Because of that, Reagan, the most requested subject is the godly marriage, family, and the Christian home. Okay. That seems a bit surprising, but I get.

They said, we have never heard any teaching on this. They say at their seminaries and they may allude to it vaguely, but not an in-depth teaching on the godly husband, the submissive wife. But you see how it all ties together now. Yeah.

If you can think of just one example, because I'm sure you have so many, but times when you've been in the mission field and you've seen God do the unexpected or perform a miracle or protect you, and I'm sure there's been times when you've been at risk, would you have a story like that? Well, there's a story that happened in the remote villages of Nepal. We had a guest teacher with me and this guest teacher had the theology that the manifestation gifts of the book of Acts have ceased, cessationist. Are you with me?

He told me that on the bus. As we were riding a public bus, he said, this has, he believes that this has all ceased. You know, the miraculous healings and the tongues and all this and all that. And I said, my dear brother, I understand where you're coming from. I only have one question for you. Are you open to God totally overhauling your theology? He said, yes. He said on that 12-hour flight from America to Nepal, I prayed most of the way. I couldn't sleep and I couldn't stay awake. So I prayed.

Lord, I want to go home from this event, conference, a changed man. I said, great. We're in for a good time, I said. So we're at the conference and after the conference, a man came up and he said, we had to do all this through a translator. He said, I need prayer. I need help. I said, brother, what's the problem? He said, I'm paralyzed on the left side and I need to go see a doctor, but I don't want to, I can't afford to go see a doctor and have no idea what's going on. I want healing, miraculous healing.

Well, and so I said, look, brother, do you believe by faith that God is able to heal you? And he said, I do. I said, now I'm going to test you. Why you want healing? I said, the Bible says that our bodies are, First Corinthians 6, for the Lord. Our bodies are members of Christ. That means that shoulder is a member of Christ. It belongs to him to do his work. And your tongue is a member of Christ to preach the gospel, to teach the gospel.

Your feet are the members of Christ to walk up and down this village and preach Christ. I said, are you willing? He said, and our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost. All that's in First Corinthians 6. He says, I understand. I said, are you willing to use your hands, your feet, your tongue to preach the gospel for Jesus Christ and his honor and his glory? Per adventure, he heals you. He said, I'm more than willing.

So we laid hands on that brother and I'll tell you, we stormed the throne room of heaven for miraculous healing. And that dear brother, he is just standing there listening to what's going on. Not only was I praying for him, but I gathered a whole host of native pastors around. And this other person is probably, what do I do with this? Like, right? I guess, because if he doesn't believe it's possible or it's not going to happen, what did he do? Did he just stand there? He just stood back. He just watched.

He was not a participant. He was a spectator. Okay. And he is just watching all this. But he had said he's open to have his theology overhauled. And so, you know, God shows up. We prayed and I'll tell you, I wish everybody could hear those native pastors pray. I mean, they raise their voice and they preach and they pray with their hands. They're very animated. Very animated. And amen in Jesus' name. Amen. It's not your name. It's Jesus' name. What happened? Nothing. Oh, man. And well, the story isn't finished.

We all went home. It was the end of the day conference. Next morning, we came into the conference and it sounded like a henhouse. There was a cackling going on. My guest teacher and I, when we walked in there, we just knew something happened, but we did not know what. And so as we walked in through, here came this group of pastors. Did you hear? I'm sorry. Hear what? Last night at midnight, brother so-and-so was running up and down the streets preaching, you need to repent. You need to get right with the Lord.

He'll touch you. He'll heal you. He was preaching at midnight. To God be the glory. Amen. That day, that brother that was healed, miraculously healed, and they said he had his hands up in the air. He woke the whole village up. To God be the glory. Miracle. It was a miracle. Yeah. And all day, that dear brother was walking with his hands in the air, praising the Lord. He just followed my guest teacher and I around and others too. And my guest teacher said, today I felt like Jesus. I said, what? What do you mean?

He said, we had a, I had a following. The brother just followed us like the people followed Jesus. When we parted ways, that guest teacher, he wept. He just wept. He said, I'm a total, my theology has been totally overhauled. I'm a changed man. Praise the Lord. He said, that's only one story. To God be the glory. It's not what we did. It's what Jesus did. It was miraculous. Absolutely.

I think that's maybe, maybe an important piece there because we might have our theology in a nice box, but then I'm sure you've experienced this as you travel around in different places and it just, whoa, you get stretched of, God doesn't fit in a box, I guess. Yeah, you're so right. I'm sure there's a better way to say it, but that's just what comes to mind, you know?

And you see, and if they don't believe in that is the context, I remember, and I failed to mention this, looking at my guest teacher and I said, brother, are you going to be a hindrance here? In unbelief, believe God can't do it. No, no, no, he said, no, no, no, no. I'm with you. I believe God can heal this brother. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Because, you know, if you go to James 5 with the anointing with oil, there needs to be unity in faith and belief.

And I had asked everyone there and they all agreed, including my guest teacher. Well, he wasn't going to say no. Because all the other pastors said yes. Yes, we believe. And it's a norm for them to believe. It's not in question. Because see, they're poor. They don't have access. The only thing they have to turn to is God. They don't have the funding for maybe a hospital or surgery or blah, blah, blah. So faith is their primary source that if God so will. And that's a good lesson for us all. Like, yeah, our faith.

Like how it's too easy, I guess, to just depend on ourselves or the resources. We tend to use the anointing with oil as a last ditch resort. But to them, faith is first because they don't really have the other resource. I don't mean to be critical, but. Of course, but. Yeah, wow. This is something I feel like I need to think on more, you know? So I'm going to take us back a little bit here. Sure. And ask this.

There are probably people listening to this that are able to identify with the first portion of your story. Up till you're 37, where you're going through the tradition, through the motions, through the culture. Like you said, you got wet, but it wasn't baptized. You're just going through the motions. What would you say to someone like that? That might be wondering, wait, is this real? That's a very good question. And that was probably the hardest one for me to, and yet not, and yet not to respond to.

Just here's what I would tell such an individual. In my youth conferences, I teach Ecclesiastes 12 verse 1, where the wise preacher Solomon, he tried everything. I don't think he tried milking cows. And he was trying to define out what the real purpose of life is. I don't think he was into snowmobiles either. But he tried all the beautiful hanging gardens and maybe know he, the women. I mean, this man tried any, what does it say? Whatsoever his heart desired to have, he had.

But he came to the conclusion at the end that vanity, all is vanity of vanities. Then he said in Ecclesiastes 12:1, and this is what I would say to such an individual that may find themselves, remember now thy creator in the days of thy youth. While the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them. Ecclesiastes 12:1. What the writer Solomon is saying, God created every one of us from our mother's womb. Study of Psalm 139 to 14 and 15 especially.

The Psalm writer says, I will praise thee for I am fearful and wonderfully made. Marvelous are thy works, that thy soul knoweth right well. My substance is not hid from thee. When I was made in secret and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. What Solomon and what David are saying is God created us from our mother's wombs with abilities, character, our tendencies. He put all that in there with a passion, with a purpose to do a work for him.

Now, that work for him can only be discovered and found out by an intimate personal union, communion relationship with Jesus Christ. I would encourage such a person that may find themselves where I was to get in just as God gave me direction in missions through the study and the reading of the word, knowing the word of the Lord, knowing God's word. He will reveal his perfect plan of salvation for you by getting into the word daily. Just as he revealed his call for missions to us. I never went to a Bible school.

There's no particular preacher that influenced me for missions. None whatsoever. It was by getting into the word and hearing, catching a glimpse of the heart of God. The heart of God through the word of God is simply this. Know him and make him known. That's Genesis to Revelation. Know him and make him known. That'd be a good title for the podcast. That's, yeah. And so if you find yourself, dear listener, in the place where I was, get into the word. He will reveal himself to you.

He'll reveal your need of knowing him in an union, communion relationship. That's a title of a message I preach out of the Gospel of John chapter 15, abiding in the vine. He will reveal himself to you and he'll reveal the work that he has for you to, the good work he has for you to do. Just as he did to us. Get into the word. Read it through and through. Read it, know it, study it, memorize it, practice it. God always makes much of any man that makes much of the word of God. That's a one-liner.

Comes out of the IGO classroom in place of a freightliner. God always makes much of any man who makes, or woman who makes much of the word of God. God will use you. He'll show you. He'll bring you to Christ in salvation and he'll show you the work that he created you for. I'm adamant about that, that God created us from our mother's womb to do a work for him. Now that can only be found in Christ, of course. I don't know if that answers your question or not. The word of God. It is powerful.

It is more powerful than a two-edged sword, dividing us under soul and spirit, bone and marrow. Now I'm starting to preach. That's good though. You know, we've covered a lot of different things on this podcast, but was there a particular topic or something you wanted to say that we didn't get to today? Well, I'm preparing to teach a class on evangelism at Opetgate at Reading.

And the question I'm asking, going to ask those young people is, is evangelism and missions, is it optional or is it imperative for the church today? That's a good question. I will answer that question. The answer comes out of Proverbs 11:25. The liberal soul shall be made fat. And he that waters shall be watered himself. So what the word of God is saying is when we, it's more blessed to give than it is to receive. When I water is a picture of the Holy Spirit. It's a symbolism or reference.

So when I water and give to others, the gospel, water, water them, there's a portion of it comes back to me and I grow and I'm to it. And I get fat. I get fat with fullness of God's spirit, God's heart. Because God nourishes me and I go and share it. It's more blessed to give than it is to receive. Press down, shake it, full and running over, splash it on others. Very important principle that I think we don't understand. He that waters gets water. How do we get fat with the gospel?

Water, others, share with others, give to others, impact others' lives with the gospel, physically and spiritually. See, in Indonesia, it was physically, but I would also share with them Christ spiritually. Yeah. I'm going to have to ponder on that for a while. You know, that's, Raymond, I just want to say like, yeah, you've helped a lot of people. And I remember meeting you. God has helped. I'm only the channel. Through you. I know, I understand. Yeah, that's just true.

But you know, hearing some of your stories and hearing some of your teaching over the years, it's a good thing. And then last year I heard you had this book coming out and I was like, that's important. Get some of this stuff down for us to remember. So I want to encourage people, go get the book. It's linked in the description. There's some real things to be learned there.

Like from your experience, from, I think the part that stuck out to me was like those first 37 years where you're just going through the motions and it's not real. It's religiosity. It's really what it was. It's not relational. It's religiosity. Yeah. And missions is not hid in religiosity. Missions and evangelism is in hid in knowing Christ. Yeah. So I just want to thank you for coming today, being willing to share with us. Thanks for the invite. Yeah. Well, I hope we can do this again.

Maybe when you write your second book, we can come do this again. I would really enjoy that. We're praying about that. We're getting started. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for your time. Thank you for coming today. Sam Bear realized one day that his faith wasn't really real and he ended up leaving the church. We interviewed him about that journey and how he ultimately came back to faith. You can find that episode linked in the description below.

If you appreciate what we do here, make sure you subscribe and tell others about this podcast. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.