Do Bad Churches Glorify God? — John Coblentz — Ep. 216

We are having the privilege of actually participating in this great work of God, and, uh, if we—if we can actually get a picture of the glory of that work, we're all—we can be almost desperate. I—I just want to be part of this, somehow, to be part of this work of God.

Yeah, thanks, John, for joining us for, um, talking about, um, Ephesians and the church, and today, um, maybe some of the hard issues with, uh, the church. Um, how do we think about the church when there's abuse or hurt or mediocrity or, um, whatever? Um, but first, yeah, could you just give us a—a brief introduction to who you are?

Uh, yes, uh, John Koblins. I, uh, work at Faith Builders Educational Programs, uh, serve there as pastor, uh, campus pastor, and—and instructor, and have really, um, felt privileged, uh, for the opportunities that it affords to study, uh, to learn, uh, constantly learning as I interact with students and, uh, staff, and it's just been a—been really enjoyable. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think maybe for—for this episode especially, maybe some of your experience before that, where you spent time, you know, as a full-time counselor. Mm-hmm. Um, might be relevant here, just because of having seen a lot of difficult situations close up and so on.

Yeah, I'll start with a quote, um, from the commentary you had written on Ephesians. Um, you say, "The church in its current state is not always glorious to us. Um, we are still imperfect. Um, our music is at times off-key. Our theology is at times wide of the mark, and our interactions with each other fall short of the love we profess."

Um, and yeah, I mean, maybe starting with that, how should we think about it when we feel like, you know, our experience of church just feels mediocre? Let's start there with the feeling mediocre. We'll get into some of the, you know, even—even worse situations later. Hmm.

Well, I think we always have to realize that the church is in the process of becoming, uh, being shaped. Uh, Jesus is constantly, uh, working to bring us to maturity, uh, not only individually, but as—as a group, and Ephesians 4 focuses especially on that—on that growing, uh, to the mature, to the perfect man. It talks about there are the mature, but that's not—that's actually the context is not about us individually. It's about us as a group, and so that—that's the difficulty that we face sometimes, and the reality is that we can get into, um, uh, ruts, into, uh, ritualistic ways of living in ways that—that become empty of—of Christ's presence, and our—our interactions become routine, and when our focus is—is no longer on Jesus properly, we—we begin to act in ways that we shouldn't.

Uh, we had that in some of the New Testament churches, and, uh, Paul, uh, particularly, we have more record of his interaction with the churches than some of the other apostles, but, uh, really addressed those things and—and called people to—to grow, um, pointing out some of the characteristics of—of carnality or, um, spiritual, um, immaturity.

And, uh, so we—we face those things, and, um, it's easy in that then to become, uh, divisive, to—to—to want to separate, uh, at Corinth, uh, we are of Paul, we are of Apollos, and—and—and so his call to them was to come back to, uh, really focusing on Jesus and growing, actually personally growing, growing together as—as a group. Um, it is disconcerting. It is, uh, difficult where we feel that—that the vitality is not there. Um, and I'm blessed when—when I hear people expressing a yearning for more, a desire for a deeper, uh, relationship, but we have to be careful that we don't—that in the process of yearning for that with a group, we don't simply become critical and—and, um, neglect our personal pursuit of Jesus and yearning for him and love for him and allowing that actually to be contagious in the—in the group.

Yeah, that's helpful. So you talked about the danger is becoming, um, divisive. Um, so—and then you talked about, you know, people need to grow, churches need to go—need to grow. Um, is that part of the key to responding—responding while there is instead of, you know, using all these imperfections as a reason to be divisive and critical is to say, "Well, I need to grow up.

Mm-hmm. I need to be contagious in my growing up." Mm-hmm. And actually, just like a new believer needs to grow up, a church needs to grow up sometimes too. Yes, I do think it is—it is important. Um, uh, it's—it's so easy to see wrongs. It's—it doesn't take a lot of intelligence or spirituality to see where—where people aren't what they ought to be.

It takes a significant maturity, and you see Paul demonstrating this, but it takes significant maturity to actually engage with immaturity in ways that are actually helpful and draw people toward the Lord. Uh, it has to be in our own hearts first, and, um, they need to—to sense in us a deep love for Jesus, and even in our—if—if we need to address things, um, in a group or whatever, but that it is actually done out of our commitment to the good, not out of exasperation and—and, um, criticism and just—just to point out wrong.

Yeah, that's very helpful. Um, and that's the difficulty of growing up. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yes. That resonates. So John was speaking, um, at our church here this weekend, and one of the things you shared last night, you talked about stages of growth and the, you know, the infant spiritually who is hungry to take things in, the young man. I talked about in 1 John, you know, "Write to you, young man, because you are strong." And then you had the picture of the mature Christian, um, carrying a load on their back. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that resonates with what you were saying about, you know, how do we address immaturity? Because in the—in the young man stage, and especially if we're talking about, um, men, you know, we talk about the young bucks.

Hmm. Who really do have zeal for something. Mm-hmm. Um, but maybe don't know how to relate to people who are less mature and come charging in, and yeah, part of that maturity, and you drew that picture with the, you know, the mature person carrying a burden, and I don't think this is the—a negative burden. I think you're referring to them, you know, carrying responsibility for others. Mm-hmm. And to me, that is a beautiful picture of a mature person who can relate well to immaturity.

Mm-hmm. So yeah, maybe just shift our focus here a little bit, um, because, you know, what really makes it hard for someone to have a positive view of church and probably makes it hard to even think about, um, some of those glorious things we talked about in Ephesians, um, especially when there's been, you know, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or just abusive leadership, and it's coming, you know, coming from somebody who's an official leader in the church or coming from somebody who's influential, and the church seems to condone it. Um, yeah, that's just a—a very difficult, um, situation to be in. Um, can you offer any perspective? Hmm. There.

Yes. Well, I certainly don't want to in any way minimize the pain or, uh, sorrow or confusion of people who have experienced, um, unhealthy or wrong things from leaders. Uh, leaders are in a position where their—their words, uh, carry special weight, their attitudes. Um, and, uh, John writes about, um, theotrophies who love to have the preeminence, and he—he casts people out of the church and—and so on. And so there—there is that—that, um, that difficulty, that, uh, pain that people experience at the hands of—of, of, uh, those who are in authority that don't handle that in the way that Jesus calls us to. Um, I don't, um, obviously, situations vary considerably, and so we have to—we have to think in terms of, um, not being able to answer all of the—the particular questions.

But there are a number of questions that I personally have tried to ask, uh, when I've been in difficult situations. Uh, years ago, in a situation where the—the pastor, um, actually became very angry at me. He confessed this later, but, uh, at the time, it was a very painful, uh, situation.

Uh, but one of the things is I sought the Lord, uh, in that, um, I think there is a time when we maybe need to move to another setting. Uh, in fact, in this situation, I even asked him if I should, and he thought it would be good if I would, and I—so we've been seeking the Lord, trying to, uh, understand his will. And I remember specifically in—in praying, uh, God spoke to me saying, uh, "You don't leave until I've done everything in you I want to do." And it came to realize that—that God can actually do good things in us, even in difficult circumstances. And, uh, in that case, uh, one of the things that he worked on me was—was my pride.

My—uh, it was a kind of an involved situation that I won't necessarily go into, but, uh, I realized that God can actually do good things in us if we are open to him, even through, uh, painful, um, things from leadership. And then I remember praying later, and it seemed that God said to me, uh, "Don't leave until I've done everything through you that I want to do."

And realizing also that, uh, sometimes in—in difficult relationships, uh, we easily think of it only in terms of ourselves, and—and God may want to do something through us. And I realized that this—this pastor maybe needed me as much as I needed him, or that God was at least using him in my life. And, uh, I think in that, we—we don't ever justify wrong. We're not saying that—that that is—that is right, but we look to God and—and allow him and be sure that our responses are being guided by—by him. Um, I think that there are times when people, uh, shift, uh, go to a different congregation or—or whatever. Sometimes that may be necessary, but not just jumping, not just quickly doing that, seeing that this is guided by God.

I think we—we—we have to always be careful about making moves that are primarily about what we don't want and being sure that we are actually following—following God. Coming to the church, I think with the mentality, not primarily what—what can the church do for me, but what can I do for the—for the church if I can borrow, uh, Kennedy's, uh, uh, statement about our country. Um, so—so with that—with that way of thinking, um, the reality in a close relationship, just as in a marriage and a family, uh, in the church, there will be offenses. There will be things that happen that are hurtful, that, uh, that shouldn't happen. That's the process of our—of our growing, our becoming.

But how we respond to those things is so significant in terms of—of the—the ongoing effect on us that Jesus is—Jesus has such grace that he can enable these, um, these wounds actually to be part of our development as we look to him.

Yeah, and I think that is—that's so important in—in thinking about this picture. Um, I guess I probably want to distinguish, though, between some of these, you know, those very hard relational things. And, you know, if you have a different kind of scenario where somebody's being sexually abused or something and they need to—right, very likely need to find help. Mm-hmm. Very likely need to gain some distance. Yes.

Um, and that immediate—I mean, obviously the immediate thing there is—is help from safe people. Um, but then I'm thinking even afterward, somebody, you know, maybe looking back on that, maybe they're now protected from the—from the abuser. But it seems like that could so easily, like, you know, cloud your whole view of church. Mm-hmm. Or you could feel like just, "Well, I've seen what—I've seen what happens in church and I don't want any of it or whatever." And obviously, you know, God wants a more redemptive response than that. But yeah, how would you maybe try to help someone see past some of that trauma in the past or something?

Yes. Well, I certainly, uh, do think that it's important we don't, um, encourage people to stay in relationships where, uh, there is—they're crossing boundaries like that in ways that are inappropriate. There's—there is the need actually to reinforce boundaries and—and even create physical distance at times, um, where there's been that kind of abuse. And, um, and—and people often do need, uh, help with that to be able to work through those things. Uh, there, you know, God is in his grace, does give us grace, but he gives it oftentimes through other believers.

Uh, but becoming disillusioned, uh, uh, I would again just want to say that—that we always have to be careful that we don't, in the—in the pain of a particular situation, don't lose sight of the bigger picture and that it is an incredible privilege to be part of God's work. And—and that's where we have to come back to saying, you know, if I had a terrible, uh, circumstance, that—that doesn't mean that the—the whole plan is bad. Right. Uh, just as when—when we have a very difficult personal relationship with somebody, it doesn't mean, "Well, I'm never going to have a relationship with anybody." We—we realize that that—that does happen.

Um, but, uh, we are—um, we are having the privilege of actually participating in this great work of God. And, uh, if we—if we can actually get a picture of the glory of that work, we're all—we can be almost desperate. I—I just want to be part of this somehow, to be part of this work of God. Uh, again, not—not minimizing pain and, um, confusion that people can have in particular relationships. And, um, yeah, don't—don't want to minimize that, but—but don't let that particular relation—um, pain or difficulty obscure who God is and what he's doing in Christ and—and our desire to be part of that.

Yeah. Thanks for that. Yeah. The other situation I wanted to think about, um, with—uh, with this theme of, I think we're calling this episode something like, you know, "Do Bad Churches Glorify God?" And maybe the framing is not quite the right framing, but, you know, thinking about how do we approach it when we have those problems. But yeah, another piece I'm thinking about here in terms of, you know, my question, do churches—how do we think about churches glorifying God when we see problems and so on? Um, is just a thing of, you know, ethnic reconciliation or how do we relate across cultural lines or whatever.

Um, it seems like it's a big part of Ephesians. It says God is bringing together people from everywhere, bringing them together now, walk in unity. Um, you know, some years ago, I think this was maybe attributed to various speakers, but in the mid-1900s in America, there was this saying, you know, "11 o'clock Sunday morning is the most segregated hour of the week."

And this was, you know, pre-civil rights movement when there was official segregation. Mm-hmm. And then they're saying, "Well, the churches are worse." And of course, we could get into a lot of debates and get a lot of opinions if we tried to assess, you know, what exactly is the progress since then, because some people would feel like there's been a lot of progress and others would say there's not been much progress and so on.

Um, but still, and you know, I think about this in our—in our circles, so Anabaptist perspectives, we're representing a certain, um, piece of the Anabaptist movement here. And it seems like we have a hard time relating at a church level, you know, beyond people who grew up in conservative Anabaptist circles or similar circles.

Um, and it makes me wonder sometimes, and I think other people ask these questions like, "Well, you know, are we—are we missing something about these barriers or partitions that Ephesians talks about Jesus taking down?" Um, yeah, how do you think about some of those issues?

Well, it's a big subject, and I don't know that I have the answer for all of them. There is—there is this tension between, um, between likeness and diversity. And I think with—with the kind of, um, disintegration, uh, or, uh, breakup of the church, we do find ourselves moving toward those that are like us. I think that even as conservative Anabaptists, we should—we should think in terms of, uh, resisting at least some level of that—of that like, just being like, uh, and especially if we—if we make it a fairly closed circle, uh, that—that really bothers me. I think we should—we should, uh, reach out to others and—and appreciate, uh, where God is working in the lives of others.

I—I don't know, um, that we can rectify everything, uh, there, uh, but it's a joy to me when in our congregation we have people from different backgrounds, uh, ethnic groups, uh, whether it's race or, uh, sometimes, uh, we—we have a number of people from other—other backgrounds, and I find great joy in that, even where they bring perspectives that are different from ours. And, um, I—I—I just find a lot of—of joy seeing how, uh, how Jesus can bring people together, uh, from, uh, different backgrounds. I—I think the—the New Testament example of the Jew-Gentile coming together in one body is just amazing. Uh, and—and we can—at least I can look back and think about, um, well, they really should have done that, and that was really good, you know.

And yet sometimes it seems like more minor differences today can keep us apart. And—and yet the work of Jesus is to—is to bring diversity together. And I think we should rejoice in that and actually, I—I don't know that we have to necessarily try to look for somebody diverse, simply being open with, uh, sharing, uh, who Jesus is, uh, with others. And, um, uh, we have in our congregation, uh, people from different backgrounds. And I—I—it for me, it's a—it's a—it's a great joy. And I—I think we should at least be open to those things. And—and particularly, I think making our entrance, uh, such that it's accessible to people. Uh, there are values in that conservative Anabaptists have that are good values, family values, work values, and those kinds of things.

But—but recognizing that people from different backgrounds can have, um, can have, uh, some diversity there and we making it such that there is entrance possible that—that actually they can—they can come in and be part of us, one with us. Mm-hmm. Maybe I could just, uh, illustrate that in—in one way. So our strong family values, when we have people coming into our congregation, oftentimes they don't have those or they might come as parts of families or, um, and—and I think it's important that we include them in our family structures in ways that—that enable them to experience the closeness, um, uh, almost like adopting them into our—into our families, uh, structures so that they don't just hear about our family gatherings and wish they could have them, but that they can actually participate in those kinds of things.

That would be an—an illustration of ways that we can actually pull them in—in—in good ways. Mm-hmm. And it's actually—it's actually building a community when you do that. That's right. Yeah. A sense of—of belonging, of identity and so on.

Yeah. Yeah. So I hear you talk about two pieces there. The one is the importance of, you know, thinking in terms of a local church and thinking of openness. Um, and then the other one, which I think could be local church, could also maybe have to do with just, you know, who we associate with and so on. You talked about resisting that—that pull toward, you know, we associate with like and it becomes exclusive or becomes our, um, insular or whatever. Um, yeah. Do you have any practical—any other practical tools or thoughts on what that means to resist that? Um, I know in the last episode you talked about some of your purposes related to, you know, not creating disunity and what you can do, um, individually.

Um, yeah. Any practical suggestions on resisting the—yeah, the pull to be insular maybe? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think—I think again, the—the—the—the bottom line is a, um, strong commitment to Jesus, focus on Him, and encouraging it in—in anyone that we interact with who—who loves Jesus.

And, uh, in that, uh, recognizing that, um, there are times when they may—um—we may find that—that their questions and their challenges actually are healthy for us, where—where we actually have, um, barriers or hurdles maybe would be the—the thing to—to them actually joining with us. And—and there are times when, uh, we may have just grown up with something and it just seems like the right thing to do. And their way of thinking is—is—is not that way. And it can be on just practical, uh, everyday kinds of living where if—if unconsciously we're putting pressure on them. Uh, I'm just saying as an example, we often do our own gardening and canning and things like that. And it's almost like a—uh, it's—it's almost a part of our faith.

And it can—uh, it can seem like, and people who don't maybe don't grow up with that, um, are—um, uh, feel like, "Oh, if I need to join your congregation, I need to have a garden." And—uh, and it can—uh, I remember one, um, uh, young lady that was, uh, coming to our church. One of the things that she struggled with was a different view on pets. It was—uh, it was surprising to me because I knew that there were people in our church who had pets. But for her, you know, having a dog in her house and so on was very, very significant. And somehow she had picked up that that wasn't real acceptable among us. And I just think those kinds of things can be hurdles that are just unconscious, um, values or practices or, um, and—and again, where—where we can focus on loving people as they are.

Uh, you know, there—there are a number of places where, uh, where I run into it, um, would be on things like, um, government assistance, for example. Uh, our—the place where we live is—is a lot of people enjoy government assistance. They take whatever they can. And, um, even if that can help them to avoid, uh, or keeping their income low enough that they can—that they can participate in some of those things. And—and for us, we have a strong work ethic. And—but again, we, uh, uh, being able to interact with them in ways that—that, um, help to nurture their—their love for Jesus. And these kinds of things are things that we'll talk about and—and interact with what we—what we—we see them sometimes helping us as they—they maybe push against some of the things that we are thinking we need to listen, we need to care, need to—uh, sometimes they actually will challenge us and cause us to say, "Wait, you know, maybe we're putting too much emphasis on something here."

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. And these things apply. We were talking cross-culturally here. Yeah. But these apply to relationships in—in general. Uh-huh. As well, which is—yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. Um, yeah. Any other thoughts on this theme, um, with our question, do bad churches glorify God? And if you want to tell me that's a bad way to ask the question, you can do that too.

Yeah. I—I want to say that again, we really need to—to think in terms of our—our gathering about more than just us and, uh, being, hmm, making life comfortable for us or solving our problems so that we enjoy church. Uh, church is not primarily about our enjoyment. It is certainly about that, but it's about the glory of God. And—and—uh, so when we face problems, thinking of it in terms of, uh, how does this either contribute to the glory of God, how do solutions, uh, or, um, not necessarily just about how it affects us. Uh, but that's a—that's—that's a constant tension that, um, because God does want—He cares about our—our comfort and—and—enjoyment of church. Right. But it's—it's the bigger picture.

And, um, the reality is that sometimes we are detracting from the glory of God by the way that we're interacting. I mean, you see that Paul's rebuke to the Corinthians, uh, taking away from—taking away from the centrality of Jesus. And, you know, he—he asked some very pointed questions. Was Jesus—or was Paul crucified for you? Uh, you know, those kinds of questions, enabling them to see that they were gathering around the wrong things there. Yeah.

Yeah, that—that seems like maybe one of those biggest key applications out of all of this is—is remembering God's doing something that is bigger than just, "What am I receiving?" Mm-hmm. So, yeah. One thing I would say maybe additional is, um, it's—it's actually a concept I learned in a book on marriage, but that marriage is not—marriage, one of God's intention is that it's—it's like a mirror for us. My—as I interact closely with a marriage partner, I actually begin to see myself, and it's part of God's design for my growth. And I think we can apply the same to the church, that, uh, sometimes these difficulties in relationships are actually God's way of showing ourselves, showing us to ourselves.

And through that, um, we're opening ourselves to growth and to being refined and, uh, again, um, being made more like Jesus in—in the process.

Yeah. No, that's a—a good picture and realistic. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us for this episode. Mm-hmm. Thank you for listening to this episode, and I hope it encouraged you in the situation you're in. Um, we will also link here a similar interview we did with Dean Taylor, um, called Church Is Hard, where he talked about various, um, difficulties encountered in church life.

Uh, you can find that linked below. Um, you can also find a link to our website, um, with links to essays, a little bit more about the ministry, um, and all of our content.