28 Years as an Amish-Mennonite Pastor in Ireland - Dan Yoder

Be humbled that we don't have all the answers, and, uh, we're just trying to learn as well. And try to put yourself in their shoes, how they would, how we would feel if people come to us like we're coming to them. Try to learn what's important to them, both in a negative and positive, since what they like and what they don't like.

To be their friend, really, is to listen to them, be—give a listening ear. Hmm.

Well, uh, Dan, welcome to the Animaps Perspectives podcast. So we're filming this in Ireland, and you've lived here for 28 years, I believe it is. That's right. And the first question I have for you, you were asked to come over here as part of an outreach, a church plant. Uh, what is it like doing an outreach in a country like Ireland that has, at least historically, really deep Christian roots? And, and what all was part of that process when, as you came over here?

Well, yes, you're right. Um, Ireland has a history of being a religious country, sometimes called the land of saints and scholars. So there've been, um, like Trinity College in Dublin has been there for, uh, I think, over a thousand years. It's a very old college, and, uh, the church has been well established here, primarily the Catholic Church in the last hundred years, although for years before that, it was also a Protestant church. There's a lot of history there. When England ruled Ireland, it was more Protestant, and, uh, it's more Catholic. But, um, it sort of gives the people a sense of being Christian because they believe the Bible, many of them do.

And, um, the—many of them go to church. And so there's somewhat a sense of feeling that we're already Christians. Why do we—why should we listen to you? What are you bringing us? Something different. In some cases, it's almost like they were inoculated against the message of the gospel that we would want to bring because they feel they are Christian. And they do believe. A lot of them would believe the same facts of the Bible that we believe.

So yes, it, um, I'd say the main aspect of that is then that it takes time to earn their trust and respect. We can't just convince them by talking or knocking on their door and handing them a tract and saying, "Look, why don't you come to our church?" They have a church, as a rule, most of our neighbors would. And so we sense pretty quickly that we need to just live among the people here and live out our faith in a day-to-day manner. And that's part of the reason that we started several different businesses here to live and work right with the people and reach them on a down-to-earth level where they live, and, um, buying and selling things, baking things, and so on, that, that we are seen to be working people and not just living like missionaries on, um, missionary dole welfare from the states, you know?

We're trying to earn our own living here as much as possible. Hmm. So you're already touching on some of this, but yeah, the, the difficulties you encountered. Again, you've, you've been here 28 years. I'm sure you've seen a lot of difficulties and challenges. You know, you're in a—this isn't your home culture. You're originally from America. Um, yeah, describe some of those challenges over the years or the difficulties of, of these forms of outreach and gaining people, um, and, and so forth. Mm-hmm. Yes, well, that's the, um, that is the essence of it in that they already have a religion. And so we didn't have—it's been difficult to have local people attending our church services.

One thing the Catholics in the past, at least, were taught that it's a serious sin to cross the threshold into a Protestant church or a church that's not a Catholic church. Interesting. They considered it a serious sin. Was that just because of the conflict between Ireland and England, uh, historically, or like the Catholic-Protestant conflict? More than that. Our conflict between Catholics and Protestants. Interesting. Um, I can't really tell you how that developed, but I think they call it a venial sin, which is a very serious one. I'm not sure. I can't describe all those terms completely, but so much so that some of the older people locally would never have wanted to walk into our church building.

Wow. So it's a serious— So that's a pretty significant cultural or religious, I guess, barrier difficulty that you've had to, to work with. To work with. But that, thankfully, is somewhat changing with the younger generation. Um, I would say most of the generation in the last 20 years now growing up wouldn't really have a consciousness of that as being so serious. So, um, that is improving in the sense of breaking down those barriers. But historically, yeah, there would be stories of, um, very serious conflict, even very nearby here. If a Protestant would marry a Catholic or vice versa, I mean, they could be ostracized, their house could be burned, or there was just a tremendous conflict between the two religions.

So it's good to keep that in mind so we don't come across as being know-it-all and haughty in any way, but just to be careful that some of them, that's their impression of Protestants. And see, to them, we're Protestants. We don't—Anabaptists are not necessarily Catholics or Protestants. But to them, if you're not Catholic, you're—well, some people, I think, were Mormons. We must be Mormons that never— Oh, interesting. But it's kind of like that that's the only other bucket, so to speak, to put people in. If you're not Catholic, you got—you have to be this.

Yes. Wow, that's—yeah, I'm sure every, every culture and country and people and so forth has particular barriers to get to cross. That's right. To engage them. And so that, again, that feels like a pretty significant one. Yes. Um, my, my sense would be it probably needed a lot of patience and faithfulness here. Interesting that you use those two words. It's a phrase that I have—I have shared with people many times is patience, faithfulness. Hmm. I didn't know that. Oh, that's really interesting. Well, please tell me more then. Yeah. Well, that sort of came from sometimes when people are here for a year or two or three, and the church hasn't grown in numbers to where we have 50 or 100 or more people, like you probably would find if you move to Africa, to Kenya, or some of those countries where people seem to be more open to the gospel message and to a conservative Anabaptist message.

Um, so sometimes, and we may get into this later, but sometimes the pressure comes to, what's wrong with us? We're doing something wrong. Uh, we need to change. We need to make it more attractive to the local people. But I have observed enough, and I could name a number of places right off the top of my head, where that approach, churches have sort of gone that route of accommodating the desires of the people to make it easier and more plattable. And I'm not saying there's nothing we should consider there, but if we do everything people want, we end up with—what do we end up with? Not much of anything.

Just give one example. One man came, a local man, and he said, "See, we still sit the brethren on one side, the sisters on the other, men and ladies." And he said, "Um, you will never see local people walk in and see that. They'll turn around, walk out. They'll not come to a church like that."

So we talked about it. You know, that's not a Bible verse that you can point to that we have to do that. So anything like that that's brought to our attention, we will consider it. We'll see. Is that an accommodation we should make to the culture or the people? But then when we start talking, another man who came from another culture said, "Oh, no, don't change that. That's one of the things we liked about the church here." So now how do you please these people and these people? And you soon see that trying to please the people is sort of a dead-end road because you probably end up displeasing as many as you're pleasing and maybe not be attractive to anyone.

So that term patience faithfulness, we live out our faith. We don't need to jump this way and this way and this way to try to keep these people from leaving or to get them to come. But patience faithfulness, year after year, will show more to the people that that's what they want for their families, something that's stable and is not shifting quickly. We've changed a few things, and we probably will some more, but we don't do it quickly and not just because one or two people think we should do this or that. So that's where that phrase comes from. Yeah. That's, that's really, that's really helpful, um, context there. So let's flesh that out a bit.

How did you go about then, like reaching out to your neighbors, doing outreach in this area, um, especially, again, this is cross-cultural, you know? Um, yes, they, they speak English here, but it is a different culture. It's a different place. Um, and you've already mentioned like the patience, faithfulness, those things, but practically speaking, what, what did it look like? Or I guess I should say, what does it look like, uh, in the work you all, you all do here?

Well, we've early on, we looked for something we could do with our hands, partially to develop, generate our own income so we can be self-supporting as much as possible, and also so we can interact with the local people. So interacting with them on a day-to-day basis, we were able to purchase a small store locally where many people come in every day, really. And so we right away, we bought it from a local couple who was retiring. And so it was a going business. But of course, they sold tobacco. I'm not quite sure if they sold alcohol, but they were open on Sundays. And, um, so when we took it over, we, of course, took out all the tobacco and we started being closed on Sundays.

It was a pretty big adjustment for the local community to accept that. But eventually they did. And of course, it's a much bigger business now than it was when we, we started with it. And then with that, we have a stand with Christian books in it. And then later we were able to add a special room as a Christian bookstore as well.

So to invite the local people in, they come in for their bread and cakes and so on. And they see a stand with Christian books on it. And if they look a little bit more, they'll see the room with a lot more books and Bibles. We also, from the beginning, started a choice books ministry where we not only sell the books here locally in our store, but, um, we supply about 10 other places all around the country. Now that's interesting. Okay. Choice books. I didn't know Choice Books was here. Yes. That's interesting. Okay. Hmm. We just came from there a week or two ago. We were, every time we can, we go to Choice Books in Northern Virginia and pick out an order of books and have them sent over here.

So in that way, it's not just local, but we've developed good relationships with people in Dublin and Cork and Limerick and some of the bigger cities around and help supply them. They tend to be in Christian bookstores or churches rather than a store like a Walmart. We don't have Walmarts here, but the general feeling here is, and this would go back to the culture, is that you don't mix your secular with your sacred. You go to church on Sunday and take care of that. Then the rest of the week, you live like everybody else.

And a local person warned us that for us to put Christian books in our store where people come in for bread and milk, they won't like that because you're sort of like pushing it down their throat. And they don't like to see that. They think we should keep that out of the business arena. And that just belongs to church on Sunday.

So we appreciated that counsel, but we didn't. That's one area we didn't quite listen to them. And we went ahead and put it in anyway. And it doesn't affect them. They can walk right past and ignore it if they want to. But, um, it is strategically right beside our coffee machines. So as they wait for their coffee, they're looking around and they see these books that, uh, me. And many people do pick them up and and look through them and, uh, and buy them off of there. Mm-hmm. How, how we're engaging another way was trying to develop occasions to invite people in. Now we do that in our own homes, but we also do as a church quite early on.

We had once a year, we have a dinner for, we started with just widows. We knew a number of elderly widows. So we invite them for, make it a real special occasion, maybe in, uh, October, November before Christmas, a festive occasion. And, uh, so that has grown. We still do that. We just did it a week or two ago. And, uh, I don't know, 60 some people maybe who come in. And that's from all around. And it's not only widows anymore, any elderly or really good local neighbors, friends who come in and, uh, we'll have a dinner and, uh, we'll have the young people sing a few songs. And, uh, one thing they comment on is there's no alcohol.

And to them, that's very strange to have a formal dinner and not have alcohol with it. But they know that we just won't have that. We've also had quite a few neighborhood, like a summer evening, we'll have a barbecue and invite all the local neighbors along the road where we live or one of the other families and, uh, have them come in for an evening meal and just sit around and outside. It's a bit rare. Evenings here are generally almost too cool for, uh, to sit outside, but we bundle up if we have to.

So just to, um, try to look for occasions like that when we can bring them in without a church service that we're not preaching at them, but did love the singing. And then every year before Christmas, we'll have a Christmas carol service with, um, again, the young people and the school children singing quite a number of songs. And, uh, a lot of people like to come for that.

We've had Oasis Chorale here several times with chorales from the states who come in. Then we'll, um, try to have a program here, but also travel around in some other cities and churches and get programs. So just various ways like that to reach out to the local people. Mm-hmm. There's, there's definitely intentionality. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm hearing here. And, and we've been in the community here a couple of days now. And I've been struck by numerous people I've met or am going to meet here soon that have come from the local community or from, you know, general area that have joined. And that's telling me what you, you know, you're doing something like that doesn't just happen for no reason, you know, uh, people finding you and engaging, uh, you know, with your church and what's happening here, which brings me to another question, I think is a one maybe we all wrestle with.

And that's the topic of welcoming seekers. So people that are, that are seeking, maybe they're starting to attend, whatever the case may be. What is some practical advice you would have for our people as we think about welcoming seekers into our churches? Um, and perhaps maybe you have a story to, to illustrate that as well. Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, hospitality is a big part of it.

I guess Amish Mennonites are known for their good cooking. And, uh, it's one thing we can offer to people. And really, maybe surprise that many, um, local people wouldn't have quite the experience of cooking a big meal like, uh, like we would be used to. So to invite people in and share a good meal, or it can be a simple cup of tea as well. It doesn't always have to be a meal.

But, um, hospitality to welcome them into our homes, also to learn to understand their culture. I don't think Americans often realize how, how we come across to people of other countries. We sort of send, if you've always lived in the States, you sort of feel like America's the center of the world, you know, and everybody else is foreign.

And, uh, so to really work on that, to recognize that to other people, their place of growing up is the center of the world. And we always have to work on this to not be insensitive in remarks that we make.

Some people come and just sort of make fun of, "You're driving the wrong side of the road. Why are you driving the wrong side of the road?" Well, it's not really the wrong side of the road. It's the left side. And it's different from America. But you go to England or even Kenya, a lot of other countries drive on the left side too.

So one thing that we would say in welcoming seekers is to be sensitive to their culture and respect them for who they are and their sensitivities. And Ireland, especially, is Irish people have a long memory. And for many years, they were ruled and oppressed by the British Empire. And they were treated very cruelly. There's no question about that. The potato famine, if you want to do any Irish history study, is very much in, in the people's minds still. The blight came through. People lived on potatoes, basically.

And the potato blight came through and killed the potatoes. So the Irish people starved. They had nothing to eat. But the thing is, the English owned the land. They were Protestant, and they made it illegal for Catholics to own any land. So they basically had the Irish as slaves. And, um, they didn't share their, their excess, their food with them. So the over a million people died, and another million emigrated to America and other countries. Irish people have that in their mind. And it's not only history because to this day, Northern Ireland belongs to England. The six northernmost counties on this island are still British in a country called Northern Ireland. It doesn't mean just the north of Ireland.

It's actually a separate country. And so even the present generation has a difficult time, some people especially, um, forgetting that or laying that down. And we have to be careful that we don't, um, don't feed that or say things that make them, uh, feel that more painfully again. Mm-hmm.

Even in the, in the church, if you have people of British background and of Irish background, it can be very difficult to lay down that ancient animosity between the two because it goes back generations. And like I say, it's not only history because it's still alive in Northern Ireland. And there's a strong push from the Irish to absorb those six counties into the Republic of Ireland, where we are here, and let the British go to England where they belong and make it all one, one country here. So it's, it's actually an active issue to politically. You, you read a lot about it. Some parties are really pushing for that. So sensitivity to their culture is, is one thing that's very important.

And, uh, sometimes ministers, even very well-meaning, can say things that, um, are offensive to Irish people. And so try to avoid that. You wouldn't want to, across the pulpit, talk about going hunting any kind of, I know one minister who gave a, had a good example of trapping some animals. Well, in Ireland, trapping or hunting, there's some hunting, but guns are mostly outlawed. And so there's a real sensitive spot for, uh, in a sport like that. And Americans are known for being gung ho and all those things.

So it's a whole range of things like that to be aware of. It's kind of like entering a culture as a learner or, or humbly, perhaps, or maybe not assuming, oh, because this is the way we do things. And obviously this is the way everybody else is too, right? That's right. Yeah. It's not, it's not the, um, the hunting one. I wouldn't have thought of that. But now that you say it's like, oh yeah, that obviously, you know, that makes sense. You know, um, and I think for, for people listening to this, you know, as they, as they interact with their neighbors or, you know, whoever it is, they're, they're doing outreach to, I think the same principles apply anywhere.

Yeah. That's true. We're humans. Yeah. Which is another question I want to ask you too. I'm, I'm guessing, um, sure, uh, quite a few people listening to this podcast are working in some type of cross-cultural ministry, whether that's just the, you know, the immigrant parent, immigrant, um, neighbors that they might have, or maybe they're on the mission field somewhere or whatever. There's lots of different ways. What's some advice you would give them based on your experience working cross-culturally? What would you say to those people?

Well, it would be similar to what, uh, we've been talking about here is to, to learn the things that try to learn from them and be humble. Yes, be humble that we don't have all the answers and, uh, we're just trying to learn as well and try to put yourself in their shoes, how they would, how we would feel if people come to us like we're coming to them. Try to learn what's important to them and, um, both in a negative and positive, since what they like and what they don't like to, um, to be their friend really is to listen to them, be give a listening ear. Mm-hmm.

It's what, um, we would have picked up from, from here, I suppose. Mm-hmm. You mentioned stories in the previous question. I'd like to, to share this, um, as an example. Uh, in the cultural area, a local lady who was a good friend of ours traveled to America and, um, she went to visit some, um, some plain people, Amish Mennonite, people who, um, were connected with people here in a way. They were invited to somebody's home and so they were there. And she was telling us about this after she came back. And she said they came to this house and they went in and sat down and visited and the people never offered them a cup of tea.

And she said she felt they were judging her because she's not plain like they are. And she was very offended by that, that there was no cup of tea offered. Well, here, that's just what you do when someone comes in and sits down to talk. And sometimes even a business, somebody comes to buy a car or something, you need to sit down, talk about it. But all who's offered a cup of tea is just about the first thing you offer, tea or coffee, usually tea.

So she was offended because, and she didn't understand that that's the American way. You might offer a glass of water maybe, or often don't even really think about doing that. And so learning to value their culture and what is important to them would be part of the answer to your question, I think. Mm-hmm. And then not to, like I was saying earlier about the church, you know, not to quickly feel like we need to change our ways to attract them or to keep them. Um, to me, that's different than offering a cup of tea or being sensitive to things that we might say that offend them. All of those things we really need to do, but then to change the way we live out the Christian life, that's sort of in a different category, as I would understand it, and the way we do church, so to speak.

There are two we can do some. We have in the, our practice in the past and in many plain churches is when you kneel in prayer, you turn around and, and kneel. I don't know if you understand what I mean on the, you know, you kneel on the floor, of course, rest your hands on the bench where you were sitting.

Well, that seemed very strange to the people here. And so we made that adjustment, that accommodation, and we kneel facing forward toward the platform, toward the speaker in the front. Mm-hmm. We feel you can make accommodations like that, that, um, would be respecting the culture wherever we can, that doesn't, uh, doesn't violate what we believe is important. We will look for things like that, that we can do. We start our church services a little later. Many churches here don't start till 11 o'clock on a Sunday morning. Mm-hmm. Um, or does it often 9:30, I think, in the States? Many times. Yes. And, uh, that would just seem very strange to people here. Mm-hmm. So, um, we start at 10:30.

We've tried to sort of hit a middle ground, but, um, accommodations like that we can make and, uh, try to make it a bit more like the culture here where we can. So as we wrap this, this episode up and we're thinking about reaching out to those cross-culturally or, you know, missions, maybe someone listening to this is working with their, with their neighbors that are refugees, et cetera. Um, is there any encouragement or anything else you would like to leave with, uh, with the listeners, um, based on what we've been talking about today?

Can't really think of, I think we've covered most of the bases. Um, the hospitality is important to welcome them in, give a listening ear, especially if it would be refugees. And they've often been traumatized and gone through, uh, difficult experiences.

If I can, can I just give you another quick story of a local lady that might, I don't know, would it quite, uh, fit that, but it might. She was a Jehovah's Witness and she visited one of her families and started noticing some things that she liked in that family and started coming with her questions, wondering whether we have something that she doesn't. And so she started coming to our house. And so for several years, she would come every Monday evening.

She studied the Bible with the church she was with, but they taught her that they're the only right church. And, uh, yet there were just some things that didn't quite line up in her way of thinking. And so night after night, she would come and she, this is what she would say is that my church says they are right and you are wrong. You are saying you are right and my church is wrong. How can I know who is right? I want what's right.

And she had tears streaming down her face. She wanted what was right in a very desperate way. How could we persuade her that we are right and she and the church is wrong? We couldn't, but we just assured her that God will show her. And she desperately, she sincerely wants the truth. And, uh, at first she could not accept a Bible from us because they had their own Bibles and they won't look at any other translation. But the day came when she finally did accept a Bible that was not a Jehovah's Witness Bible. And once she started reading that, it started to open her eyes till the day came when she gave her heart to the Lord.

And it was a Christian to this day. So it took years, you know, and if you, so the idea of patience there comes in again to just, um, you can't force it, you can't rush it, but, um, to be a friend and give a listening ear and many cups of tea or whatever they like and just, um, be a genuine friend. That's about the best I could say, I guess. And point them to the Lord, but you don't always start with a Bible verse or a Bible or a tract, you know, it can be the cup of tea, the, the, uh, friendship that, that they feel first and then that can, it's a very good book written, uh, The Gospel Comes with a House Key.

Have you seen that? Yes, I've read it. Oh, it's excellent. Yes. That's the idea. Mm-hmm. That's a, that's a powerful, you know, testimony too. Yeah. That lady you're talking about there, you know, God will show you, right? Um, and there's that verse, if you seek, you'll find, you know, Jesus is very clear about that. If you're seeking, you know, you'll, you'll find and, um, pointing people to that and reminding them of that. That's a powerful note to end on. Thank you, Dan, for the 28 years you've lived here and the stories you've shared with us today. Um, I think there's a lot that, that we can learn from, from your story. So thank you for sharing.

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode with Dan. If you found this interesting, you should check out this other episode we did with Alan Roth on the subject of church planting. You can find that linked in the description down below. And of course, you can find all the content we've made on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. We also have a monthly email newsletter, which you can subscribe to on the website. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.