Turn the Cheek or Call the Police? - What Should Christians Do? Brothers on Journey

Okay, let's remind the viewers of what the kingdom, uh, remind people of what the two kingdoms is, just general, if someone wants to start off there.

Well, I'd say that, um, the two kingdom concept is basically that, um, Jesus has inaugurated a kingdom that, um, demands our loyalties, just as an earthly kingdom would demand loyalties, and that it actually, um, you can't really give the same loyalty, or you can't give your loyalty to both of them at the same time, because they demand the same type of loyalty.

And that those two kingdoms then are opposites. Like their, their goals often, and their methods, definitely their methods are opposites. The, the loyalty to the one, uh, creates a treason toward the other one. They care about different things. Yeah. Yeah.

And that, that both kingdoms exist now. They're, the kingdom of God is something that is, is, uh, is a force and, and is growing and, and is, uh, Jesus is reigning as king over a kingdom now. I think some of the challenges are that we end up being Christians living under two different kingdoms, so, um, that causes different challenges, uh, culturally, uh, and politics. Uh, so what, what kind of, um, what kind of challenges do we Christians face by having to live under two different kingdoms? What kind of challenges are presented to us?

So when you, when you say two different kingdoms, you're meaning like, so we're, we live in the United States, so there's a, the kingdom because of the territory that we live in, there's a civil government that we're under, but then we're also under the kingdom of God, right? Mm-hmm. Correct. Yeah. And so how do we, how do we live out that sort of a dual citizenship type thing? Yeah. And what kind of, uh, what kind of situations arise in, in our world where we're faced with the fact that we're living in two different kingdoms? What are some of the prevalent things we have to deal with? Well, so an analogy, um, that comes to mind is, um, I know someone who, um, lives in Central America and in, I forget what, what country it is, but he's in an area that he's under, uh, civil government, but he's also in an area that has a lot of, um, drug activity.

So the drug cartels are actually, um, more powerful than the government is, um, most of the time. So they actually have to obey the laws of, of their government, plus whatever, um, the drug cartels tell them to do. Um, and so it's, it's like they're living under two kingdoms. One of them is more legitimate than the other one, um, but they still have to, they still have to, in a, are in a position where they have to listen to both of them.

That's actually kind of a good illustration, because there's one that they're loyal to, and then there's one that they have to cooperate with, sort of. That's a little bit the picture there. And the one may be more legitimate. They're both absolutely real. One of them, the, the one that's less legitimate, probably kills them more. Right.

Yeah. Right. And obviously, um, as a citizen of the kingdom of God as well, these people are under the kingdom of God. So they're under three different governments. But, but I thought the interaction of those two governments, where the one actually, the less legitimate one demands, um, demands things of them, and they, they see it as, as a government, as in, you know, these people are people in authority over us to a degree. I mean, we're not, they're not going to obey everything they do, obviously. Yeah. But sometimes it creates sticky situations where they want, where the drug cartel is going to want them to do something that's illegal for the, um, for the nation that they live in.

So now what do they do? Which nation do they, um, which government do they listen to? Yeah.

And, and in a lot of ways, usually when a government like that takes over, or a guerrilla group or whatever, it's not just telling them to do things that are illegal, but they take over things like curfew and just logistical laws. Like they, they institute laws like that that are things that, you know, like it's not, it's not requiring them to commit treason against their, the true government. It's kind of a little bit the same thing that Christians run into. There's things that, you know, it's not just like the governments of this world that we live under are all just completely evil and, and, and all that kind of stuff. A lot of the laws are, are just very practical things, like, you know, going through this section, go 25 miles an hour, stuff like that.

Right. Do you think that Jesus would want us to be, if we were in a situation where we were living under two different governments like that, maybe one legitimate, one not legitimate, and the, the rebel government, if they want, if they were ordering us to do things that were not against Jesus's laws, would, would he be wanting us to submit to the legitimate and the illegitimate governments? I mean, that's a little weedy, but. So that's actually, that's actually what the, the, uh, a lot of citizens or of the American colonies ran into during the Revolutionary War is because they had sworn loyalty to King George, and then the American revolutionaries were coming in and saying, actually, we're doing something different now.

And so, you know, there was the, the royalists or the Tories that got stuck in, in, uh, in that very situation. So we, we've kind of, we've kind of created this, this specter of the, the earthly kingdom. So what, what, what, what is the problem with, with the earthly kingdoms? What, what is it that makes them in opposition with Jesus's kingdom? I mean, are they all just, I mean, so are we looking at like, you know, the Illuminati's running them all and they're all, it's all just a scheme to control society and enslave them? I mean, what, what is it that's, that, what is it about the civil governments that's in conflict with Jesus's kingdom?

I think one thing, the divided Republican that we have, where we have Democrats and Republicans and how they are so against each other that just the battle between the, the internal battle causes people to act in so many ungodly ways, just to be on their own party side. That's not even talking about what the governments are saying to do or what the governments are, are doing, but just people's reaction about their governments are just very ungodly.

Yeah. Yeah, the caricaturing of the other side and, and, and going to extremes in order to support your side in order to, so, um, without getting political here, but like, like saying the other side's all wrong and our side's all right when really there's some, there's some, uh, some leanings of our side that maybe are oppressive towards people or inconsiderate. Um, yeah.

Yeah, the one thing we need to bring up on the two kingdoms, one thing that I haven't really thought of a whole lot about, but I think it is a two kingdom issue, is something that the video will play next time, hopefully. Um, the guy talks about, is there two laws in place? And he constantly says there's only one law. So if it's right for, if something's right for a Christian, then it's right for a non-Christian. If it's wrong for a Christian, it's wrong for a non-Christian. And then, and vice versa. So if it's, if it's okay for, for example, a police officer to arrest somebody or defend somebody or shoot somebody, then it's also in self-defense or to protect somebody, then it's also right for a Christian.

And then he, he goes back and forth between that a lot, and it really is a two kingdom thing, I believe. Um, and, and in a sense, there are two laws. They're following the laws of their nation, and we're following the laws of our nation. And yes, God, the king of our nation has given them the power as ministers to keep this nation, like let's say America, civil or not, going crazy. Um, but I really do think somehow we need to, uh, flesh that out because, and we'll probably do it more so next time, but since we're talking about the two kingdoms, I just dawned on me that it is a two kingdoms and possibly a two laws thing, and, um, and not a one law, but we'll have to watch what he says to really get a grasp of what he's trying to say.

So what you're saying is there's, so for example, the classic passage is Romans 13 where it says, you know, he's the minister of God to, to you for good. And, you know, he's supposed to, let me say this right, because all week I've been saying it backwards, but he's supposed to reward the good and punish the evil.

That, um, if people grab that and say that then because he's supposed to do that, that that means as a Christian, then I should, you know, who else should be doing that? But the people who are good, the people who, and, uh, and not an understanding that the, the governments of this world and the whole thing of keeping law and order, rewarding the good and punishing the evil is a, uh, uh, sort of a provisional thing. In other words, if you're not going to follow Christ, then yeah, you got, you need to somehow keep, um, keep every dog from eating every other one. That, that type of thing that just because God says, yeah, this is the way it should be, should be, this should be, doesn't mean that that's what he wants for everybody.

And that as followers of Jesus, we're called to a higher way. Yeah. Of, of relating to that. And I guess we'll, we'll flesh that out some more here in our discussion. Well, God, God gets a lot of really awesome things done or things that he wants to get done through evil. I mean, you look at what Satan put Christ through and then all the amazing, the unspeakably amazing things that have come out of that evil. Does that mean that Satan's not going to be punished by God for that because of the good that happened? Yeah. So it's a similar thing if like God, um, it's one, it's easy or it sounds right to say it's okay for a police officer to kill someone to protect someone else.

But just because something good happens out of it doesn't mean that God isn't going to have judgment on somebody, uh, who accomplishes a good thing through evil ways. Yeah. That's a good point. Like the book of Job, God tells Satan, go ahead, you know, do it. But yeah, is God going to like give Satan brownie points then? Because, you know, he, no, he's going to be judged for, for, for, uh, test or for, um, trying to get Job to fall. Mm-hmm. Um, but Job, but through that, Satan actually did do some tremendously good work in Job's life. And then because Job's example, because Job withstood the temptation and came forth like purified gold, then, you know, God did good in, in so many of our lives through that story and that example.

So that's, I think that's a good, good picture of that in a, in a way that we're all, we all can relate to, because none of us, I don't think any of us would believe that the devil's going to get off the hook because, you know, God used his evil intentions to bring out about good. Right. Right. Right.

Um, and I think we should probably clarify for our viewers' sake, um, that we do believe that, that the governments are ordained by God and that we do need to obey them as much as possible. Yeah. Um, we'll get to that later. I think we have a number of questions on that, but yeah, um, we are talking about how they're, they're not, um, ideal. This is not how God, um, wishes it ideally would be, um, but he has put this in place. And so we do, we do submit to the government. Yeah. Um, very much. So, yeah. And there, there's actually an internal conflict in, in, in me, um, about the idea of police, because so you've got, when I was raised in school, I went to public school, you know, being a, a policeman and a fireman was, I mean, you were, you reached the pinnacle of serving the United States if you were a policeman or a fireman.

You were right alongside Mother Teresa. Yeah. And I, uh, I have a lot of, um, you know, I think it's right to plead, to treat police officers with the highest level of respect anytime you, um, anytime you have any encounter with them.

And, um, so that was my, what I was raised to think about, uh, police. And then, um, as I get older, this narrative starts to form this, you know, I would say within the past five years, I don't really know the exact timeframe, but this, you know, um, defund the police narrative. And so now there's this huge, it seems like the pendulum swinging. Now there's this huge attack against police officers. And I, that hurts my heart. It, you know, the, when someone says, you know, they're trying to protect and serve, I think they are trying to protect and serve. It's not like they have these evil intentions.

Um, yeah, most of them are. Yeah. So there's a little bit of conflict there. And then when, when one of them does, when a police officer does have to kill and shoot somebody, um, I'm not saying when, when I said earlier that, um, that God may still punish someone for accomplishing something good through evil ways. I'm not saying that every time a police officer pulls out a gun and shoots somebody, that there's some great punishment for them. God may have, who knows, God may have mercy on them. Uh, we don't know what their hearts are. They really, they may do it ignorantly. Yeah. They may, they think that they're doing the right thing. They are, in some cases, they are protecting and serving.

Uh, God knows their hearts though. And there may be police officers who, um, have never been exposed in any way to the idea of two kingdom concepts. Um, and they are, they hate the fact that they're hurt killing somebody. Yeah. There may not be judgment for that. And we can't know that. But there also may be police officers who, who enjoy it and deep down in their hearts that, that they got to have the opportunity. I don't think there's very many of them. Uh, but God really, um, God really knows the hearts of men. And I guess I just wanted to say that because I don't want people to think that I have this concept that police are bad and evil.

You know, I think that we really should respect them. And I, I really dislike the idea of not taking care of them and assuming that they're, assuming that they're evil and have bad intentions and all that. That also brings up another thing that guy mentions is so if a police officer, uh, say there's some, something happening and some people getting beat up and maybe, maybe going to die and some, you just can tell a lot of evil's going on that a police officer could come and sort out and fix.

And the guy would say that if we hold our position, we can't call the police because they will come and possibly kill somebody. And if we wouldn't do it, then we shouldn't have them come do it. We're responsible. If they, we call them, they come do it, then we're responsible for them doing it. Yeah. And then he uses scriptures to show and I don't remember what scripture it was, but it made sense, like letting someone do the evil on your behalf that you wouldn't do. And like a friend of ours who uses I360 to rent a place, well, someone's not paying their rent and it might be a lawsuit. And now it's like, okay, so letting I360 do it, does that make it right?

Because you're not doing it now, um, something you wouldn't be willing to do. And so it's a similar thing. So like, where does that, like they are the ministers of God and they are put in place, you know, the government, the whole government's put in place by that. Is it right or not right for us to ever call them?

Yeah. And a lot of times the, you know, people, police officers don't always have to revert to, um, to ungodly methods. A lot of times they come in and they are able to, because of the authority that they bring onto the scene, they're able to de-escalate and, and come up with resolutions. I think the, um, the assumption in that argument that that gentleman was making was that it, I think it was a false dichotomy that if you call them, they will die, someone will die. Um, but we, we don't assume that very often police officers come in and because this guy's got a warrant and he doesn't want to go to jail, he quietly disappears.

He all sorts of different things that happen because of the authority comes on the scene. Yeah. There's, there's two things that running through my mind right now. One is that I think we need to be keep clear on here is that we don't have to judge the individual. We don't need to say that individual is going to whatever. But Jesus tells us, this is not my way.

And so we're responsible not necessarily to judge everybody's actions. Mm-hmm. And, and declare whatever's going to happen to them because of that. But we are responsible to say, I know that Jesus said, this is not the way that he wants me to handle these situations. And this is the example that Jesus set and that he taught. So I think that's one thing that just releases us from, from that. We don't have to say what that police officer's relationship with God is or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, in it, um, losing my train of thought here on the other one. Um, the other, the other part of that is that, that because God has set up that those who don't rule their lives by Jesus' way, which is being willing to suffer and returning good for evil, absorbing evil and returning good, um, those who don't rule their life Jesus' way then need to figure out some way to handle it.

And so he has set that up that, that that's, they need to figure out a way to handle it. And that I don't think that's on us then how they choose to handle that. It's our responsibility just to, to do our part to allow them to know about it and to do what they need to do, um, for several reasons. And with that, then I think we need to be careful too, though, that we aren't, we aren't calling the police in some sort of like, that's our way of reaching for the AK-47, you know, or reaching for the nine millimeter or whatever, or the baseball bat. Like, um, because I think that subtly can be like, we won't do it ourselves, but we, that we are doing it out of notifying them so that they can fulfill their responsibilities and so that we're not responsible for further acts that happen because that person's on the loose.

I don't know if that makes a, makes a little sense there. Yeah.

One, one thing that, um, on this whole thing that helped me kind of, kind of for me as a foundation that helps me, uh, helps me build and then also go back to a stable point, a push-off point in many of these issues is in my own thinking about how I'm going to live my life is that Jesus has a way. He said, I am the way. And it's not so much a five-step thing to how to get to heaven, but I have a way. He comes and says, he refers to himself as the Son of Man, the human one, like as a second Adam that is coming to, to show us the real way to live and then to redeem us from the power of evil.

So, and start a revolution of people who live heaven's way. And so he has, I don't remember which dictionary it was, but early on I, I, I looked up politics one time when I heard people saying this thing that Jesus was very political. To me, politics was always like lying and, and, uh, manipulating and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, wait a minute, Jesus doesn't, Jesus doesn't do that kind of stuff. The dictionary I looked it up said that politics is basically goals for a society and methods of getting there. And that made it real simple to me. Like, yeah, that's what all this stuff is. The Democrats, they have a set of goals for society and they have methods of getting there.

And so do the Republicans. And that Jesus has goals for society and he has a method of getting there. And we got to be loyal to Jesus' methods. And that's the basic problem with this is the kingdoms of this world have different goals often. Sometimes they may, they want the piece of society, right? They don't, they want children to be safe out on the streets. Sometimes they may have the same goals, but they have different methods. They have methods that are our own ways. They're not partnering with God. They're saying, I'm going to do this for myself. I'm going to make my own security. We're going to reign in our own way.

And that at its core is what makes the kingdoms of this world and the governments of this world in contradiction to Jesus is because they have a different method of achieving security and whatever their goals are. Like that's one thing that's helped me think about that whole thing anyways.

Yeah, that's a really good thought.

Um, you said about politics. So one way we could talk about it is that Jesus has a politics. Yeah, right. A way of, yeah, a way of, of, um, acting for society's good. Um, and you know, if, so in our country, um, the, um, the Democrats have a politics and the Republicans have a politics. Yeah. And they don't really match very well. Um, there's some crossover, obviously. They, they're in the same political sphere. They're trying to, they're trying to run this country. Um, but the way they go about it is different. And we have a completely separate politics that is so, um, it's so different from the politics of the world. Mm-hmm. Um, that we really can't, um, there are, there are Christians who, um, hold to something like the two kingdom concept.

And, um, I'm thinking of the Neo-Anabaptists. Um, and, but some of them are still comfortable engaging in politics because they're like, okay, well, we've got a politics that's from Jesus. Let's see if we can help society, um, have this come to this politics. And I guess what, where we would disagree is we're saying that no, it's just not going to happen. Society's, um, governmental politics is just so different. Um, it's just not possible to have Jesus for president. Um, as much as, as I love that ideal, it's just not, it's just not going to happen because our politics is so radically different from anything that would, that would work for non-Christians, um, to live under.

That's a good point. Cause Jesus actually resisted any sort of that type, like being a king or a, a civil ruler figure. The one, uh, was after the feeding of 5,000, I think when he's, he, he, he realized that they're going to try to come in and forcibly take him and crown him king. He got out of there and went head out in the mountain.

Uh, very, very, um, very diligently and radically, uh, maybe went to extremes, uh, maybe is a better way of saying it to, to avoid any sort of position like it. So if Jesus, if Jesus could be president, he would not be a president. He would be a, he would be a shepherd leader. Here's a, uh, good example of how Jesus' politics could never, never overlap with the politics of the world. Um, I don't know who this quote is from. It's in, uh, whoever wrote against heresies. Anyone know who, who penned that early church writing against heresies? I think Uranus. Yeah. So he says, um, for to him who takes away your coat, he says, give to him your cloak also.

And from him who takes away your goods, do not ask for them back. And as you would be, and as you would that men should do to you, do likewise to them, so that you may not grieve as those who are unwilling to be defrauded. There's one thing being, being willing to be defrauded. You'll never get that into politics, but may rejoice as those who have given willingly and as rather confirming a favor upon our neighbor and yielding to necessity. And if anyone he says shall compel you to go one mile, go with him too, so that you may not follow him as a slave, but may as a free man go before him, showing yourself in all things kindly disposed and useful to your neighbor.

Here it is, not regarding their evil intentions. How are you going to get, you have people doing evil to you and you're just not even paying, you're not regarding it. It's not a part of your thought process, not regarding their evil intentions, but performing your kind offices, assimilating yourself to the Father who makes the sun rise upon the evil and the good.

That's so good. Yeah. So if someone comes into your house and they're trying to take your stuff and maybe they're violent, maybe not, and they're taking more and more and more, this comes back to my earlier question. I have an answer, but I don't know if it's everybody's answer. Do you call the cops? And then not only because they might, mayor, if you don't call the cops because they might be violent, because we're not going to be violent, you know, but if we're not considering it evil and they're taking our stuff and we're willingly giving our stuff, do we, is it right for us to call the police or should we, should it be, I'm not saying in every circumstance, but bringing it back to that, like, do we say, no, I'm not going to call the cops and then he leaves with all your stuff.

Do you just like, let him leave with all your stuff and not call the cops afterwards? You know, it's like a, the, I maybe should say police, because I don't think cops like cops. I watched too many videos, uh, movies of the TV show cops back in the day. So I'm used to the word. Yeah, I would shoot him from the hip. I would say, I don't think that there's necessary, necessary.

That's a good, man. That's a good idiom in this situation. I don't think that there's necessarily like one answer that would fit every situation. I don't think that if someone is in the middle of experiencing something like that and they call the police, that I don't think that that's necessarily wrong.

At the same time, I mean, it's, it's difficult to know how you're going to handle those situations, but at the same time, if you are aware enough of the opportunity to obey Jesus, and most people are never going to have that opportunity. Most people are never going to have the opportunity to be, uh, have evil just coming at them and the opportunity to obey Jesus' teachings and give the cloak as well and to love that person and to not even have pay any attention to his evil intentions and treat that person, um, the way that God treats them in the sense that God, God brings rain to them and he's and sun on them and they're wicked people, you know, that, that person, he, when he breathes in and feels what oxygen feels like, I mean, it feels good to breathe when you need to breathe.

Yeah. And that person, if that person doesn't turn from his ways and he ends up in hell and he breathes, that breath is never going to feel that way again. God pours out his love on the wicked and very, very rarely do we have an opportunity to stand up in a situation like that. But I wouldn't say that necessarily if someone's freaking out and they're getting robbed and they, they call the police, I wouldn't say that the one way's wrong and the other way's right, but they definitely missed an opportunity that they might never have again in their lives to, uh, show the, show that person, uh, the true nature of God.

I think in this whole stuff, we want to, we want to try to rationalize as much as possible, but at its core, like we can never project really what's going to happen in all those situations. And usually the situations of violence and, and so forth, there's a context that that happens in. And so what happens is, is people say, we're going to take this much of the context and, and, and that's going to be people who, nobody's, nobody's obeying Jesus up to this point. And then all of a sudden we're going to stick in here obeying Jesus to this point. Whereas, um, if you have communities of, of peace-loving people, I don't mean people that just overlook everything, just, you know, um, all sit around and get dewy eyes and hold hands and sing kumbaya.

But people who stand for truth as examples, but love, love, are, are, um, not contentious and, um, forgive their brother, like on that kind of level and, and give to help those who truly have, have need and things like that.

Um, you're going to, there's a, there's a whole context going to be created out of that, that just changes the, the scenery. One thing I, I keep thinking about this is when we say we try to figure out how it's going to turn out, we're looking at it through such a keyhole and we, we can, we can only see so far. There's only certain factors that come in. A soldier, um, a soldier doesn't sit there and evaluate his, his superior officer's commands and decide how they're going to work out before he decides whether he's going to obey him or not. He does them and he trusts that hopefully this has been thought through and it's going to be a good plan, but he gives his life to it.

And I think that's the same thing, that same commitment is for a soldier of Jesus Christ, that we follow our commander's directions as a, as a child. We submit to our heavenly Father's instructions, even though we don't understand why this is. We don't, we can't see one good thing about not being able to eat ice cream before we go to bed at night, you know, like little children that way. So I think that's one thing in this, we all, we need to, like who, who would have seen from Jesus' death that Satan, the strong man was going to be bound and defeated and his stronghold ransacked and, and freedom brought to, to those who followed Jesus through, through that and the resurrection happening and the spirit being given.

Who, who, who saw that coming through that action of, of it's like Jesus, you, you just looked at people and they all fell over, like, what's wrong with you? Like, don't let this happen. God's being killed. And yet, and in First Corinthians chapter two, that's what the focal point is there when he talks about the wisdom of God, the wisdom that, that was so deep and profound and, and long-sighted that it knew how things worked. And if the prince of this world had known, they would, speaking of the, the powers of darkness, they would never have been sighted the crucifixion of Jesus. So I think that as, as people who give our loyalty to Jesus as king, we need to remember that in these situations that we follow Jesus committedly.

We're following a wisdom in these smaller situations of, of the plight of children and people that we care deeply about being hurt, that we're following that same wisdom that turns Satan's regime upside down. We celebrate every Sunday in the resurrection. Mm-hmm.

So was that the answer to the question? Only reason I'm asking is because I watched the, the way that you'll see he presents it. He, he's very straightforward on everything. Like it's black and white like this. And that's a, that's a problem in itself. But can we be at all black and white or is it always situational? Is it only when it's doing something happening to us in our family that we just focus on love and not having rights and not worrying about what happens and letting God take care of it? If we die, we die. And then if it's happening to the world, do we call the world's enforcements? And that's the, let the world handle the world.

Um, is there not a clear answer? Is it just what we, I mean, it seems, I feel like there's a clear answer, but the, the without just saying it, but I'm not sure there is. Um, so I feel like, so I'm, I'm kind of a little confused because I feel like we're kind of going into a specialized subject now rather than talking about the, how the kingdoms are at clash and who do we give our loyalty to about it? Well, there's two kingdoms at clash here when a specific person comes in and is, uh, the someone of the world comes in of a different kingdom and how we're to respond to that. And then we're still in this world and we obey all the government's orders as long as it's not against our king's orders and commands.

And then we see something that's happening in the world that maybe we go and try to say, beat me up instead, or how can I do this? Or do we keep ourself out of harm's way between these drug dealers who are killing each other? Or do we go in and try to love at the drug dealers to stop killing each other? Or do we go over there? Or do we call the police and say, hey, you have some drug dealers trying to kill each other and you handle it? You know, I don't, it's, it is a very real question. Yeah. No, I'm not, yeah, I didn't mean to imply that it's not. And I know you, yeah.

Um, and my own thought, um, is that it's not perfectly clear, um, exactly what's, what's the best thing in every situation. And I don't see that that's a problem because there are so many situations that we face all the time where, um, where there are two things that one seems like it has good reason for doing it, and the other one seems like it has good reasons for doing it. And, um, a mindset that says, well, one of them is right and the other one is wrong is, is not, it's not capable of dealing with the moral nuances that we see in the world. That's a great, that's a good point. So like there's, I think one thing that people miss is they all, we always want to put things in right and wrong where there's like very degrees of evil, but there's also very degrees of good.

Like you may have like eight or ten different good options. One God may be absolutely thrilled with that you were, that you were willing and able to display mercy in an extreme way to somebody. But there may also be seven other very appropriate ways that God would be perfectly fine with you handling it that way.

Um, yeah, I see that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think if, um, in many cases, if we are just surrendered to what God has, has for us, um, he may not always give us a super clear leading, but sometimes, um, sometimes people have, many times people are in situations like that and, and they think, okay, well, uh, there are ten options. What do I do? They pray, um, and the spirit gives them a direction and they do, or the sense that to do this one thing and they do it, um, and it works out beautifully. Or sometimes they get killed, you know, but it's, that's okay. We don't mind dying for the sake of Christ's kingdom.

Yeah. The reason I bring it up over and over is because it's a, in my mind, it's like, I need to know because if I'm not supposed to call the cops, then it's easy. If I am supposed to call the cops, then it's easy. But if it's, and then, then the, the thing happens where, okay, now it may be that the best option is for the police officers to come in and now I'm not going to call the police because I think it's wrong, but it actually could be the best thing. And then me not calling the police was the worst thing, you know, like maybe I should have called the police. And so I like it to be not so black and white.

And yeah, um, the, this gentleman who hopefully we see next week, he paints it so black and white that it's like, okay, well, he's saying that I cannot, I cannot call the police because I'm a pacifist. And if I call the police and the police does something evil, then I'm telling him to, he's willing to do something I'm not willing to do.

Um, and that, that type of thinking, um, can lead all over the place. We had a discussion as a church on, on a similar subject. Um, and here's an example, here's another example. So let's say that a particular company is, um, is, um, spending money heavily on some, um, a very ungodly agenda. Do we then not ever buy anything from that company or else we are, we are supporting that agenda? What if we don't know whether they're spending money on this or not? Um, you know, there's, these questions are difficult. They aren't perfectly clear. And if you have to have a clear, perfectly right answer for every question, I mean, well, you can't. It's just not possible.

But I do agree. There are some, there are some situations where we know what's right and we know what's wrong. So I think, I think we can be pretty clear that it's never right for a Christian to kill somebody because Jesus is pretty clear about that. Um, but, um, there are cases where, um, where, so somebody else, we aren't causing something, we aren't causing the death, but maybe, maybe something that we did, um, inadvertently led to someone's, um, death by the police. Um, and those situations just aren't as clear, I think.

Yeah, there's maybe not quite as directly, but there's situations like that all the time. So we, whatever I, I give somebody, uh, money and then he goes and does something, you know, with it that's, that's evil. Now, at the same time, I don't know that he's going to do that, but, um, um, there are situations like that probably with another link in between where somebody, we do something to somebody, we give something to somebody and they're going to use it for, you know, for an evil purpose. Um, and how responsible, yeah, how responsible are, and that, that's the discussion you're referring to. We as a church that, that's the question and there's some differing opinions on that.

I think in some ways, so I, I do believe for one, I believe that God created cause and effect, the law of sowing and reaping, that is a dignity to human choice. So we choose something and we reap life or we reap death in, in smaller ways, but that, that's the, the basic of it. And it helps us inform our decisions. We realize, ooh, that I don't like the way that turned out, so I'm going to make a different choice.

And that is part of this whole thing of the civil governments, the, the Romans 13, the minister of God to, to, um, or the servant of God to, uh, reward the good and punish the evil. I don't know why I tend to get that mixed up, but, um, like that's part of that, that if you're going to, if you're going to live by the sword, you're going to die by the sword. If you're going to be an aggressive taking person, you're going to run into other people who aren't just going to bend over and, and just be ransacked.

Those are not people that are God's people because God's people are going to give and be willing to suffer and flee, uh, you know, if, if, if it gets too bad, but they're never going to respond in, in with, with the sword, with violence, with, with like evil.

And so I think that that whole thing is, is part of God's world of, of sowing and reaping. And it's important for people to, it's important that we don't protect people from the consequences of their choices so that they realize the error of their way and they have an opportunity to repent. And in my understanding, that would be a little bit the idea of calling the police and notifying them that there's someone who's behaving suspiciously or, um, you know, that's stealing from people or in some other way, driving recklessly or whatever is making them aware so that they can do their job. And, and, and we can always twist these things and use them conveniently for our own ends, but to do it truly out of motive that I want that person to get stopped before they do something worse.

I hope that this can be something that can, they can be checked before they go deeper into sin. They can realize the error of their way. It's not my, my, it's not my responsibility to make that consequence happen, but God has created it that in the realm of those who won't be on, won't be ruled by Christ, that those kinds of things happen. They run into other people who will use the sword and it checks their evil. I don't know if that makes a little bit of sense. I feel like there is a place to do that, to notify the authorities. I, I, I would agree with Lynn though, that it's not a black and white issue always for one, because the, the levels of, of, um, whatever assault or, or in some way infringing on our, our safety or our, our goods is not always the same.

Um, and a lot of this stuff, I think it comes down to the spirit that we're ruled by. And that spirit, Jesus says that about when you're called before the, the authorities, don't, don't worry ahead of time about what you're going to say, but that the spirit of God is going to teach you.

And that's in the context of having sanctified the Lord God in your hearts and being ready to give an answer. So I think that that's the principle here. And Peter is one who talks immensely about this whole subject of suffering, being willing to suffer, uh, cheerfully suffer for well doing. But that we, we, the, the spirit that we, we protect and we give dominion, um, in our lives in the small moments is going to teach us in those situations when it's not black and white. Whoever we've been listening to is going to speak to us and we'll, and we'll, we will have him to obey and he'll give us some guidance in that. Like Lynn said, it may not always be the same for everybody, but, and he's going to give us inspiration even beyond our own calculations when we're outside of the situation.

So to make that real practical, if I choose not to take offense towards my brother about something that just I don't see it that way, or, or maybe even I feel like he wronged me, made me look stupid by something, then I choose instead of being confrontational and holding him at arm's length or making sure that he finds out that he did something that made me look dumb and that he apologizes for that. If I exercise that kind of goodwill and forgiveness and maybe talking to him in a proper way, if I, if I do that and I, I listen to God's spirit and keep a sensitivity in that way, that's going to guide me then in the situation where someone's, you know, coming over and, and robbing my apple tree or, or, you know, whatever, siphoning gas out of my tank or, or whatever it is, um, or, or worse.

And if I'm, if I'm cultivating, um, being kind and, and in my thoughts and my gestures when someone cuts me off in traffic or the guy who sits there at the stoplight that I've, I've waited three rounds now and now we're sitting there and he's, you know, and I, I think kindly, I pray for him. I wish, I wonder what's wrong in his life. I wonder what he's going through that, why he's sitting there and being like this or whatever, or the person who's obnoxious. I cultivate that mentality of looking and seeing how can I bless the one who's, who's being a, uh, an aggregate or an abrasion in my life. Then that spirit that I cultivate on a daily level is going to guide me in those moments when I really, I can't predict how, how, what's going to happen.