Proof Texting : How Out-of-Context Bible Quotes Can Mislead You - David Bercot

Okay, so I don't know how many of you have seen a Whitman sampler box.

So when I was a boy, I mean, we would—we didn't have them often. It was always a special thing. But usually in the holiday season, my parents would be given or would get one. I mean, it seemed like a couple of times a year we would see these in our house. And I always liked on the Whitman sampler, if you've never actually had one, on the lid, it tells you what all the different assorted chocolates and everything are. Now, I am—I mean, I like chocolate, but I particularly like chocolate with nuts in it. Yeah, I like something crunchy. I don't really like the liquid center or stuff like that. I mean, to each his own.

And so, you know, I'd always—we children would maybe get be allowed one a day, something like that, you know? And so you'd kind of pick and choose. It was nice. The lid, you know, it would tell you what it was. Now, this one I would not have cared for because it didn't look like hardly any of them are nuts. It's all this other stuff. But, you know, I would kind of pick and pick and choose. And then sometimes my mom was fond of these Seas candy. Have any of you ever heard of that? Okay, they're not as well known, but they're still around. I still occasionally see them. And they had a nice selection. Now, the one looks like peanut brittle.

I never saw that as a boy. These others look pretty familiar. Now, the difference with the Seas candies, they didn't—on the lid, they didn't say what was in there. So you kind of look at it, you know, and I would look at that. And even looking at it now, I have some guesses which ones I think have nuts in there. But, you know, once you got it, you didn't know until you bit into it. And it's like, well, the reason we're talking about this proof texting is kind of like this, you know, of, okay, you kind of pick and choose what scriptures you like and which ones you don't.

So let's just talk for a second. What do we mean by that term proof texting? Webster's dictionary defines it as taking isolated quotes or texts and establishing a position that may not be the author's original intent. It's kind of a big definition. But in other words, you're selectively picking quotations, and you may be doing it in a way that this is not the one who wrote this, Paul. And in case of the scriptures, you know, the Holy Spirit, this wasn't the original intent. And you've changed it by, yeah, just taking selective quotes. I mean, you can do that with people. I've had it happen to me. And it is not a fun experience to find that, oh, yeah, I said something, and then somebody's quoting that, but they're not quoting the rest of what I said.

Or I said that, but then I later said this, and you're quoting this, but you're not quoting this other thing.

Sorry about the curtains. I thought I would just decide to just try this as a transition. So I may not—I may not do this every week, but it's locked in now. I don't think I can change it. Okay. Now, there are two forms of proof texting.

I think it's cool. Okay. Hey. Well, I wanted to appeal to the children, Dan, but hey, it's the child in me and you, I think. So, okay. So the first kind of proof texting is when you just flat take a quote out of its context, out of the immediate context. You know, that's not what he's talking about.

The second kind is using selective quotes to create a doctrinal or moral position and then explaining away all the texts that contradict that position. And that's what happens with regard to the Bible. And this is what we're going to be mainly talking about. It's taking those selective quotes and acting like, oh, this is what the Bible teaches on, you know, you fill in the blank, whatever subject. It can be a theological subject. It can be something about lifestyle. And you know there's all these other scriptures, or maybe you don't know. It may be out of ignorance. But there are all these other scriptures that say something just the opposite. And you just, you know, you ignore them, or when someone brings them up, then you find some way to explain them away.

Okay. So let's talk for a minute about taking quotes out of context. This quotation was all over the internet. From what I can tell, D.A. Carson, I don't know if you've heard that name. He is a professor at some either university or seminary. He's written a lot of books. I've got one or more of his books in my library. Anyway, he said this was actually his father, who was a preacher, who came up with this. A text without a context is a pretext.

In other words, if you take any quotation and you take it out of its original context, then you're putting something pretend forward. You're putting a false thing forward.

Now, the Bible was not written with numbered verses. They're very handy. And it was a man named Robert Stephanus who put them in our Bibles. This was in the time of the Reformation. And I'd say he did a very good job. There's a few places I think he maybe should have—he split where he should have kept it together. But I think he did an admirable job. But we always have to remember Paul, John, James. I mean, they didn't write with verses. I mean, you know, you're supposed to be reading the whole thing together. And verses kind of make it easy to, yeah, just take this quotation as if it can stand alone. And we should always remember we got to take, yeah, everything around it.

I'll give you some examples.

I'm working on, as most of you know, what the early Christians believed about Romans, a commentary on Romans based on the early Christian quotations. And so I noticed a lot going through Romans of, well, if you took this sentence out of context, it would really give you a convoluted idea of what God teaches. So here was—I'm going to just look at a couple of them. I could talk all morning just on ones from Romans. Okay. Romans 14:14, "I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself. But to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Now, I've heard this quoted that, see, I mean, you know, there's no sin unless if you think it's sin, then it's sin.

But yeah, in itself, everything is okay. And another one that's very similar to this is in First Corinthians where Paul said, "All things are lawful." I hear that quoted even more out of context as like, well, everything's lawful, you know, and there's no sin.

Well, yeah, what is the context? There in Romans 14, that whole chapter, and he didn't write it in chapters, but that one is a very clear division. He's talking about foods. The whole—I mean, it's a whole chapter where he's talking about foods and the Jews having a problem. Some of the Jewish Christians are still hanging on to the law. And so he's saying if they considered it unclean, then to them it is. And he's telling the Gentiles, "Hey, be considerate of your Jewish brothers," okay? That, yeah, all foods are clean. None of them are unclean.

But yeah, if it's going to violate someone's conscience, then to him it is. And so be considerate of that. That's the whole context of this. Well, you could take that, say, "Yeah, yeah, nothing is unclean." Here's another one. This was one the Gnostics used. I mean, this was one of their favorite proof texts. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

And they said, "Well, see, the flesh, man, this came, our fleshly body, they said, came from another God." I mean, we can't please the true God in this body. So what you do in the body doesn't matter. I mean, go out and sin because what difference does it make? I mean, this body, you can't please God anyway.

Well, yeah, look at the whole context there. What Paul actually says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God." And even here, when you look at the whole context, Paul is not super clear. I mean, it's not an easy one to grasp. He's saying if your mind is set on the flesh, if it's carnal, you're looking at those things, "For it does not submit to God's law." Indeed, it cannot if your mind is on the flesh. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you." So yeah, he's using language that you just cannot take literally.

But the Gnostics were. But they ignore the next part. You're not in the flesh if you're in the Spirit. So yeah, he's saying if your mind is all focused on the flesh and carnal things, then you can't please God. But yeah, like I say, that one no one uses today that I know of. But the Gnostics use that. And you know, they could say Paul himself said it. And there's a lot of similar quotes from Paul in his other letters. Okay.

Now let's talk about the one that I think is the much bigger problem. I mean, there is a problem of people quoting the scriptures out of context. But the bigger one is using selective texts to build a theological system that you—yeah, you take these verses and almost every denomination, every church does this. And this is something we just have to be on guard that we don't do ourselves.

So as I said, this is the larger problem using selective quotes to create a doctrinal position. And then what always ends up happening is then you have these other scriptures that don't quite fit in. And well, then you—well, no, that doesn't mean that. Or you just—you never quote them. You never hear them preached in the church like they just don't exist. And so when people come across them in the Bible, it's like, well, that's odd. And they just go on because, you know, that's never preached. That verse must not count.

Now, this is often referred to as cherry picking, which is probably a better description than proof texting. Yeah, you're just selectively picking the scriptures that you want. And yeah, we can't do that. Okay. Let's give some examples.

So yesterday, I thought I would Google. You can go home and try this. What does the Bible say about salvation? I Googled that. And yeah, what scriptures do you think came up? Well, I was pretty sure I knew what was going to come up, and I was not disappointed. So the list of scriptures, John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

And none of these, I would say, are being taken out of context. I mean, they're, you know, they're all valid scriptures. Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Another one. And like I say, I was guessing all the verses that were going to come up. And yep, sure enough. Titus 3:5, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Another one. 2 Timothy 1:9, "Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus." And then this one was not on the list, but I hear it quoted often. Romans 4:2-5, "If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to glory in, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now, to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."

Now, like I say, every one of those verses, I would not say, "Well, you've taken that out of context." Now, each one has a larger context around it that I think is good to read. But I would say these are legitimate verses on salvation.

The problem is this is proof texting because there's a lot of other verses that didn't make that list. I mean, you know, you could add a bunch of more scriptures that would be along the same line. But now, what if the following verses had come up? If you typed in, "What does the Bible teach about salvation?" These should also come up. And like I say, I kept going down. I never found these.

James 2:24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Now, wait a minute. Didn't we just read in one of those other ones? It said, "We're not justified by works. We're justified by faith." Okay. So I mean, you've got something that says just the opposite.

Romans 2:6-8. I don't think I'm trying to scratch my head if I've ever heard a sermon on this. I think I preached on it once, but it's not one that gets preached on very much. Romans 4, you hear a lot, but not Romans 2, "Who will render to every man according to his works eternal life to those who by perseverance in good work seek for glory, honor, and immortality. But to those who are contentious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be indignation and wrath."

These are kind of the hidden verses that just they don't make those lists. John 5:28-29. This is Jesus talking. This is when he was at the resurrection. I want to say the resurrection of Lazarus, but I think not at John 5. "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Finally, Revelation 20:12-13. "Now I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged each one according to his works."

So see, you've got two completely different sets of competing scriptures here, which is not good. I mean, you have to deal with it. What's not good isn't that you have two lists. It's that usually you just see one of those lists.

I'll put them up here again. So the one that starts with John 3:16, I mean, like I say, that's the list that, you know, when I was a member of an evangelical church, yeah, those were the verses that were continually quoted. I would say, I don't I think I'm 99% certain of being correct on this. I don't think you would have gone a whole month without one of those verses being quoted in either a sermon or a Sunday school lesson. I mean, you just heard those over and over and over and over. And it became so fixed in your mind, it was like, "Well, that's everything there is to say about salvation. It's just by grace.

It's by believing. It's by faith." I mean, those other ones, I don't remember ever hearing them quoted. I think I left the one from Acts out accidentally.

Now, James 2:24 came up occasionally, but only to refute it. It was always, "Okay, it says here we're justified by works." And it was always, "Well, now what James is really meaning to say is if you have saving faith, it's going to produce works." That's what James is trying to say. He just doesn't say it, you know?

And it's really, it always struck me as odd because James is a writer who's crystal clear. I mean, you read James, it's not like, "Wow, well, what does this verse mean?" In contrast, Paul, like I say, I've spent now over a year in this Romans commentary, and he is very difficult. He says things that, I mean, even the early Christians who were native speakers of Quennae Greek, it was like, "Well, what's he saying here?" It's, you know, like, "Those in the flesh cannot please God."

Paul says things like that all of the time. I honestly believe they're in there for a reason as a test to us. You know, if you want to play games and ignore the whole of scripture, yeah, you can just pick Paul because, and not just the ones that are quoted today. I mean, like I say, the Gnostics, there were a bunch. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

There won't be a physical, you know, our bodies won't be raised because it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I mean, Paul makes statements like that. It's just the type of writer he is. You have to be very careful and, you know, look at everything. Like I say, James is crystal clear if he wanted to say, "Now, if you have real faith, then there will be works to demonstrate that."

But he states specifically, "You are justified by works and not by faith alone." Okay. So is it honest to present either list as though it represents the complete teaching of scripture on salvation?

The answer is no. That is not honest. And it doesn't matter. You could take either one. And if that's all you presented, you would not be giving the scriptural teaching on salvation. But like I say, that is so common in churches. And usually it's that one that starts with John 3:16. I mean, like I say, you hear that, you hear that, and you hear that, and you think, "Well, that's everything." Well, it's not. There's plenty more that the scriptures teach about salvation.

So Atley, I was trying to find that computer drawing you did of me as a Jehovah's Witness. And I thought it was on my computer, but I don't know what it saved under. So I can't put a picture of myself. It was a fake picture anyway. But so my life as a JW, I mean, it was proof texting.

I mean, I realized years later, you know, I guess I just thought that's what the Bible was. I mean, it was always just a list of scriptures, you know, here, there, you know. And it wasn't just that Jehovah's Witnesses did that. It was, I mean, my conversations, not so much when I was giving my presentation. That was kind of a cut-and-dried thing. But when I got into someone who wanted to argue, you know, and you didn't get that all the time, but you did get it.

It's, boy, it makes you sharp on your feet. You better know your scriptures if you're going to go out and knock on doors because you don't know who's going to be there. And often it would be a pastor or a Church of Christ. They tended to really know their Bibles well. And yeah, hey, come on inside. Yeah, glad to meet you, you know. And when people invited you in like that, you never knew, okay, is this going to be a really nice conversation or is this someone setting up a trap? But I mean, hey, it's fair game. I knocked on their door. And so yeah, we would get in these conversations, you know. Probably number one was Trinity, but there were a number of other ones.

And you know, they'd be throwing out their proof texts, and then I'd be throwing out my proof texts. And usually I knew their proof text because, you know, I'd knocked on enough doors, so you knew what people were going to say. And they usually had never seen our proof texts, you know. And so it would get in this thing. But normally when I was talking to somebody who knew their Bible well, you know, like a pastor or like I say, Church of Christ, it would just come into this. I mean, it was, yeah, well, you got your proof text. Yeah, I've got mine here. Now what they didn't know, Jehovah's Witnesses had a little book.

It's actually a very handy book. I still use it. It's on my book, Active Bookshelf. It's just, I don't know how many different topics and then just lists of scriptures on those topics. And I would say we would probably agree with 80% of them. I think most churches would. I mean, you know, most of them are, yeah, legitimate. This is what the Bible teaches. But what I did and a number of other Jehovah's Witnesses, I took my Bible and this, and I went to a book binder and had them bound together in a soft cover, you know, imitation leather. Maybe it was leather, okay? So it was just all in my Bible. So it didn't matter what topic they threw out.

I'd say, well, let's see what the Bible says, you know. And I was really looking in this, but you know, it was inside my Bible. You know. And they probably thought, man, this guy knows his Bible. I mean, because, you know, I had the text right there, you know, to be able to read to them. But like I say, years later, looking back, it's like, it is so unfruitful. Just, yeah, you throw out text and not even trying to, well, wow, these are saying two different things. Well, we better find out what's wrong here. No, it was just, I ignore yours and you ignore mine and, you know, until we get together and then we, you know, then we fight.

And it actually had something to do with my leaving the Witnesses because I remember thinking, boy, can eternal life really turn on this? I mean, to them, if your theology wasn't right, then, you know, you were lost. And that would be a view, I'd think, by most churches.

And like I say, I always, when I got in those long discussions, it was like, well, I can see they sincerely believe what they're saying. And they've got a lot of scriptures to back it up. And yet I sincerely believe what I'm saying. And I have a lot of scriptures to back up what I'm saying. And it's like, so is our eternal life going to turn on this? It really made me wonder that, you know, seeing that, hey, there were other scriptures than what we highlighted. And yeah, was it right to just ignore them?

Okay. So let's just quickly clarify what proof texting is not. Now, it is not wrong to produce a list of verses on a given topic so long as you're not hiding verses that say the opposite. So I mean, if you're giving a sermon on gossip or on covetousness or whatever, I mean, yeah, you're not proof texting if you get a bunch of, you know, verses that say whatever on those topics as long as you're, you know, you're not hiding something that says the other way around. Okay.

I Googled this last night, okay? What does the Bible teach about paying taxes? And I was pretty sure what text would come up. And sure enough, Matthew 22:17-21. "Tell us therefore, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" These are the Jews talking to Jesus. "They brought him a denarius, and he said to them, 'Whose image and inscription is this?' They said to him, 'Caesar's.' And he said to them, 'Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God.'" Okay.

I expected that to come up. Romans 13:6-7. "For because of this, you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

Let me get a drink here.

So what do you think? Is that proof texting? What does the Bible teach about taxes?

No. I don't know of any verse that says the opposite. It says, you know, yeah, don't pay your taxes. You know, that's legit. So in other words, just because you have a list of scriptures, that doesn't mean you're proof texting. It's, is this a legitimate presentation of what the Bible teaches on that topic, or are you hiding verses that say the opposite? Okay. So let's go back to those verses about salvation.

What is the answer when we have a group of conflicting scriptures? And I'll put the list up there again. So in each of those lists, you could add a lot of verses too. I mean, these are just five on each side, but oh, you could add quite a few on each of those sides of the question.

So what do you do with that? You have verses that say we're not saved by works, we're saved through faith. And then you have these other verses that say we are going to be judged by our works and we aren't justified by our works.

Well, what most churches do, they hide the verses that contradict their position. And when those verses are brought up, then they explain them away. I mean, that was my experience as a Jehovah's Witness. When I got to the Evangelicals, it's like, hey, this is the same thing. It's just kind of reversing sides, but we're playing the same game. Just, yeah, here's a list of verses. This is what the Bible teaches. And it's like, how can that be? That just, can that, is that the way that we can find truth?

It's not the way of truth. Okay. So yeah, we don't want to do that, you know, ever is just take some verses that we like and ignore other ones. The answer is learning to embrace the whole counsel of God. Now, that expression, boy, it barely fit there. Okay. So the expression is from Acts when Paul was, he was on his way to Jerusalem and right before he was arrested. And I think he was in Miletus, if I remember correctly. And he sent for the elders of Ephesus to come down there, and he wanted to say farewell to them. And one of the things he said is, "I'm free from the blood of all men because I've given you the whole counsel of God."

So I mean, he's saying by implication, if I held back, if I didn't tell you all the things that you need to hear, then I'd have blood guilt on myself. But I don't have that because I have told you the whole counsel of God. You've heard it all. And that is the answer is we have to embrace the whole counsel of God. We don't proof text and just take ones we like. We take everything the scriptures say.

Now, this is a thing that excited me when I first began reading the early Christian writings. This was 1984, 1985. And yeah, I was trying to get an answer to some of these things. I mean, you know, I had seen all these proof texts. I'd seen all these proof texts. And yeah, what did they say in the beginning?

And what I was amazed because I had not ever experienced this myself was when they talked about salvation, you saw all those scriptures that we had up there on both sides. They quote from both of those. I mean, and they don't try to hide them. They don't explain them away. I mean, they teach both of those. The ones on the Trinity, all of our proof texts as Jehovah's Witness, they quote those all the time. All of the proof texts that Orthodox Christians have, they quote those all the time.

They don't hide anything. And I realized subject after subject, it's like what they teach embraces the whole counsel of God. It's the whole scriptures. They don't have any verses that they have to hide. They don't have to explain away.

They take everything. And so what they taught about salvation embraces all of those scriptures. Now, of course, they put them together in a way that everything makes sense. And you realize, okay, when you look at those ones where Paul talks about, you know, we're not saved by works, every time it is past tense. If you look at it, it's past tense every time.

These other ones are talking about our future judgment. So there's two phases of salvation. When we're initially saved, it's by faith, grace. We don't have to do any works. I mean, we've been going through Acts. I mean, look at me, Peter preaches to them, boom, they repent, they believe, and they get baptized. And that's it. They become part of the church. You don't know what those people were like. Now, on the day of Pentecost, those were Jews who had come down for the feast of Pentecost. They were probably fairly godly people, would be my guess. But I'm sure they had, you know, sins like hypocrisy and things like that. They may have been in the crowd yelling for Jesus to be crucified.

I mean, Peter implies that at least towards some of them. Later on, we're going to, well, we probably won't get to it because it's not in the teaching, but Simon Magus, man, this guy's a wizard, a sorcerer and all that. And you know, he hears the gospel, boom, he believes, he's baptized, he's included in the church. And boy, he went bad really quick. But in other words, yeah, they didn't require them, well, first, yeah, let's see you live a godly life. And then we're going to take you in the church. Now, I'm not saying that's a bad idea. I mean, later the church, yeah, was seeing that a lot. When you do the instant baptisms, you do get a lot of people who, you know, later turn aside.

So there's two sides of that. I'm just saying the apostolic way was, it was immediate. So those people, yeah, no one asked anything about works. It didn't have anything to do with their works. They're being saved by their faith in Jesus Christ. Repentance has to be in there. A lot of these verses don't mention that. But when you look at the whole counsel of God, it was always repent before they got saved.

On the other hand, the early Christians teach, yeah, once we are saved, yeah, once we are a branch on the vine of Christ, then God requires, it's not just something he would like. He requires that we produce godly fruit. But even that, he's giving us the power. So it is grace in the beginning, it's grace all the way through walking in the Christian life. And our judgment will also be affected by grace. Because in the end, if it was purely based on our works, yeah, God could, he'd go through every one of our names, cross off Conrad, cross off David, cross off Kevin, cross off, I mean, he could point to something in everyone, or not just something, he could point to a long list in every one of our lives.

So we're still going to be judged mercifully. His grace is still going to be there. But that doesn't undo that he does require godly fruit, godly works when we're here on the earth, that we will be judged by them.

So we should never have to explain away any verse of scripture. Now, like I say, there might be an odd verse here or there that just doesn't fit anything. And we may just have to say, yeah, he must mean this or that. Like I say, there's, Paul will say some things that are almost non-understandable. And sometimes you have to do that. But they're not dealing with vital questions. What we do have to accept is that sometimes there's a dialectic tension between passages of scripture. And Lynn Martin can probably tell you a lot more about that term. I'm not using it here. It has a lot of different meanings.

And what it means in philosophy, what it means in formal theology, what it, it's got several different meanings. But I'm using it the way it's used in actually relational psychology today, relationships with people. And dialectic tension means sometimes you have two different things, and they're never fully resolved. For example, in a marriage, you want closeness between a husband and a wife. If you don't have that, then it's, you know, it's not going to be a very good marriage. You want that closeness, that intimacy.

But normally, most people also need some of their own space too, some privacy. If it's just all closeness in a marriage, that might work. I mean, some people might be that way. But for most people, know that they've got to have a little bit of space to themselves. So both things can be true. But we humans tend to want everything to be either/or.

And so what happened to Romans? You know, I've been working through what the early Christians believed before Augustine. And yeah, it's both/and. I mean, they're taking all of what it says. They're not explaining any of it away. And that's why it's been so very, very hard to work through it. Because yeah, they're not shoving anything under the rug. But see, when Augustine came along, it was like, boy, you can make this real simple. God does everything. You do nothing.

It's all been predestined before the world was even created. So yeah, you're here because God decided you were to be here. And if he decides you're not going to be in heaven, you're not going to be in heaven. I mean, you can come to church every single Sunday because God wants you to come to church. But he's decided you're not going to be in heaven. This is what Augustine taught.

But yeah, it's all of God. The good works that you think you're doing, God's doing that, not you. It's 100% God, nothing you. And see, well, yeah, that's simple. You don't have this, you know, tension to deal with. But with God, often the answer is both/and. And so it is God working in us. Jesus said, "Without me, you can do nothing." So yeah, I mean, we shouldn't ever be boasting about our works or that, that we wouldn't be doing them without God's power. On the other hand, no, it isn't God doing everything. Christian life is not like, I think we've all been in airports where they have those, there's probably a name for them, but the automatic people movers.

You just get on the belt and boy, it moves you. You don't have to do anything. I was reading a, I don't remember what the book was, but it was somebody, some Indian chief from, you know, one of the Amazon Indians, you know, never been out in modern civilization. And he was converted to Christianity in the mission. You know, he wanted to come and see America. The missionary brought him back. And you know, so then when he got back, he was reporting, you know, what he saw in America. And he said, he was telling the tribe, he said, "Over there, here's the trail. You get on it and then you walk. Over there, you get on the trail and it moves you, you know?"

And yeah, we've all experienced that. But that's not the Christian life. Yeah. But you may, from this end, it looks, you may feel like you're doing it all. But yeah, God's giving you a lot of that power. But it's, see, you can't define where God's power stops and where your human power is.

There's that dialectic tension is what I'm talking about. It's two different things, but they're not mutually exclusive. You can have both. You're doing, you're involved, and God is involved too. Now, God could do everything. I mean, he could do that, but he doesn't want a bunch of robots. He wants us to serve him because we want to. He wants us to have free will. But he also sees our fallen nature and knows that we need his help. So yeah, we don't have to sort it out.

I was told once that Martin Luther said this. If so, I totally agree with it. If he didn't say it, well, he should have. It was, it's a good quote.

Well, the quote given to me was that Martin Luther said, "Pray as if everything depends on God and work as if everything depends on you." And I really think that's wise, whoever said it, whether it was him or not.

Yeah, God needs to be involved. Pray like, yeah, it is God. Everything is dependent on him. But he's going to also require you to work like everything is dependent on you. And like I say, when you're living the Christian life, it feels like you're doing everything, or at least partly. I think we also sense God's power too, and we sense when we don't have the spirit. But yeah, we can't sort it all out. We don't need to. You know, both things are working together. It's that way on so many topics. It's not an either/or.

See, like what Luther did on salvation works. Faith alone, works don't have anything to do with it. Well, yeah, that's real simple. But then you end up with all of these scriptures that don't fit. Of course, his solution was, well, he tried to get Revelation, Hebrews, James, Jude, 2 Peter. He tried to get them all out of the New Testament. If he'd had his way, they wouldn't even be in our Bibles. But that didn't work. So what he did in his Bible, he stuck them all in the, he moved them all to the back of the Bible. But more importantly, yeah, he told people, yeah, be careful with those books. You know, James is a gospel of straw, you know.

Hebrews, it's all mixed up book, you know, obviously not written by an apostle. So, well, yeah, that was his solution. Yeah, look at my scriptures here and ignore all of these others. Well, I mean, I can't even hardly imagine no one called his hand on it. But they were just coming out of Catholicism, and they hadn't even been used to reading the Bible. So yeah, they're happy to get a Bible for the first time. So yeah, he got away with it.