Continue in Sin After Being Forgiven? Romans 6

Knowing this, that our whole man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin, for He who has died has been freed from sin. Now, if we die with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him.

Okay, so let's just start with those first two verses. What should we say then? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not. How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? It is interesting that like chapter three and four of Romans, verses from that get quoted so much in most Protestant churches today.

Sorry, I'm a little bit hoarse. But Romans six, I don't remember it being quoted near as often. Paul talks a lot about God's grace in chapters three, four, and five of Romans. But then he gives a balance when you get to chapter six. But too many people, oh, they just want to look at chapters three and four and act like that's the whole message of Romans. Well, no, there's more to it. And he wants to be sure that, yeah, people haven't taken a wrong. Thank you.

All right, does anyone have any thoughts just on those first two verses?

So I think what Paul is saying is that we can't live a dual life. We can't live in sin and expect grace at the same time. That it's a complete commitment to Jesus in dying with Him and being reborn.

And that everything else falls away, this world and all its temptations fall away. And we can't live a dual life and expect to live in temptation and live in Jesus. That doesn't work. It's a complete commitment. Amen. Yeah. Very good.

And are you from England? I'm from South Africa. South Africa. Okay. Well, we're really glad to have you with us today. I never can get all the different British accents straight. And I was thinking, okay, what country is this? Okay. When we were in South Africa, we couldn't get the American accent straight.

I know. Years ago, I heard a radio program. It was from the '60s, but they were trying to imitate an American accent. These were South Africans. And I thought, no, that's not quite how we sound, but we probably don't do well imitating a South African accent either.

Okay. Anybody else? Thank you. I guess the question I have is, I've heard this verse being quoted in addressing modern-day Christianity, the idea of just continuing living in sin and grace will cover our sins. Is that a problem that was common 2,000 years ago?

Yeah, it's hard to know how common it was, but yeah, obviously, I mean, Paul's bringing it up because I'm guessing some were twisting it that way. We know certainly in the beginning later, maybe by this time in the first century and the centuries on, the Gnostics were definitely teaching this that, yeah, just it's okay to sin because you can't live a godly life anyway. So just God's grace will keep covering you. And so yeah, Paul, thank you for that. That's obviously some were saying that in his day.

And I do believe that materialism back then is the same as materialism back now. Back. As it is. As it's today. Yeah. And that everything is very relative. And their desires and wants in material things of this world is no different to our desires. Even although the material things are different, the desires are the same. Yeah. Humans haven't changed in 2,000 years. I mean, we may have new inventions, new political theories and all that, but humans are the same. I mean, deal with the same basic sins, the same arguments that people make today. Some people were making back then. And so yeah, I mean, the Bible is just as relevant today as it was when it was written because we're all still the same humans.

Okay. Could I get a volunteer to read John 8:7 through 11? And then another volunteer to read 2 Peter 2:21 through 22.

So would someone read John? Dale, maybe you could read the passage in John. It's in the middle of the account of the woman who was caught in adultery. I didn't want to read the entire passage. I think we're familiar with it, but just those verses.

So when they continued asking him, he raised himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." And again, he stood down and rode on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone and a woman standing at his. When Jesus had raised himself up and saw no one but the woman, he said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no man condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."

Okay. So how does that tie to this verse, this passage in Romans?

That after being forgiven, we should not continue to sin. Yeah. I mean, almost everybody in the world, they all know this one account. And everyone knows he was without sin, cast the first stone. I mean, that's quoted everywhere. But most people totally forget what Jesus said in the end. Go and sin no more. And yeah, it wasn't like she was forgiven, but it's not like, "Oh, you keep doing this and every time you can come to me and I'm going to forgive you." No, he said, "Go and sin no more." And that's what when we come to baptism, I think that's the message that we should remember. Yeah, go and sin no more. That our past life needs to end at this point.

Okay. Did someone have 2 Peter, Andre? That was just 21 and through 22? Yeah. Okay. "For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment that is delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb. A dog returns to his own vomit and a sow having washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Okay. So Luther didn't like 2 Peter. He tried to get it taken out of the New Testament canon, I think probably because of this passage. So how does that tie with our lesson in Romans?

It just says we're not to return to our previous sins of any kind. Yeah. And it's a little sobering. It said we better not to have known the way than once we've known it to go back. So that's a dire warning to us that this isn't an option that, okay, we go back. And obviously, it's not unconditional eternal security, which is the popular message being preached in Protestant churches today. "Oh, once you're saved, it doesn't matter what you do. You can't lose your salvation." Well, then 2 Peter isn't true because then it's not true that it's better not to have known it than to go back to it. Because no, it would mean, yeah, once you've known it, then it doesn't matter whether you go back to it or not if you've gotten saved.

And that's not what Peter says. Okay.

Another thing I think we should seriously acknowledge is the fact that we're told that if there's a demon in you and it's expelled, which is basically being born in the Spirit, and if we sin, seven more are going to come in and make it even more difficult for us to recover.

So that's something we can't toy with. No. No. It's a serious thing. Okay. Now let's look at verses three through five. We talked about dying to sin in baptism. He said, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore, we were buried with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of his death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection."

So from that verse, that passage, what would you say is the significance of baptism? It's way more than a symbol. Yeah. It's definitely more than a symbol. I don't quite get it how people can read this passage and others and, yeah, oh, baptism, it's just a symbol or it's just an act of obedience. Nothing happens. Yeah, you're just doing it to be obedient to God. And it's like, that's not what I'm reading in the scriptures at all.

And the whole concept of that is death. That's, I don't know, counterintuitive to what we normally think. But yeah, that it's actually we are dying with Christ in baptism.

Yeah. So I'm going to read to you the Schleinheim Confession.

And somehow Anabaptists have largely lost this. I don't think all of them have, but it says this about baptism. "Baptism shall be given to all those who have learned repentance and amendment of life and who believe truly that their sins are taken away by Christ and to all those who walk in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and wish to be buried with him in death so that they may be resurrected with him and to all those who with this significance request it of us."

So yeah, the original teaching was the significance of baptism is you're dying with Christ and raised to new life. And they said, "The people who are ready to be baptized with that significance is who we will give baptism to."

But like you say, somehow the Schleinheim Confession has kind of gotten buried under a lot of different Protestant creeds over the centuries. You just don't hear this.

You were just at a baptism last week. Did they read this passage in Romans? Yeah. No, I mean, I have not heard it very much myself in various churches at baptisms. So yeah, in baptism, he says, in fact, Paul says, "Therefore, we were buried with him through baptism." So it's not like, "Oh, you've already been buried," which is what the Protestants say. Okay. This all happens when you invite Jesus in your heart. And then you've been buried with Christ and all this is over. All right. So what's baptism do then? Oh, well, nothing. That's just to do it to be obedient. And Paul says it's through baptism that this happens. And definitely all of the early Christians understood it this way of, yeah, baptism is where we receive the forgiveness of our sins and we rise again to a new life.

We died with Christ in our baptism, buried with him. Do you think this has any significance as to the mode of baptism?

I've heard people say that immersion tends to represent the idea of being buried, like going down in. But I don't know how legitimate that is or not. But I've definitely heard that argument. It would lend itself to this. I don't know that Paul is talking about it, but I will say immersion lends to this symbolism better than pouring. Now, our church allows either one, and the early Christians allowed, although immersion was definitely the preferred method. Yes, Mike?

Yeah. I was also going to say in verse 5, it says, I think your translation said united together, but the Greek word there is planted together. So it's the idea of what Jesus said, unless a corn of wheat is planted and dies, it can't come to life. The idea of baptism or being planted first.

Yeah. Thank you. The idea of planting is you put it in the ground and cover it up, and then it comes back up. Yeah. It dies first. Thank you. And you are right because a lot of the early Christians talk about the being planted. And yeah, I don't know if this is the King James I got this from. I think I was working from the King James and modernizing it. But yeah, thank you for that. So yeah, we're planted, which you plant something by burying it down under. Again, there's other symbolisms, washing, which you can wash through pouring or immersion, either one.

Okay.

Two verses I'd like us to look up. Would someone look up Acts 2:37 through 38? And then someone else look up 1 Peter 3:21?

Okay. Conrad, which one do you have? Acts 2. Acts. Okay. Acts 37 through 38. Yes.

Now, when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said to them, "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Okay. So what did he say? Get baptized for what?

Remission of sins. Yeah. Remission or forgiveness of sins. So

the Catholic Church took this so far where they were just immersing babies who obviously had no faith, couldn't repent, that baptism kind of became, I don't know, like it was something magic or something like that. And then a lot of the church then in the Reformation overreacted and it's like, "Well, baptism is nothing." So you got these two extremes.

And how about just staying with what the scriptures say without making it this magical thing that, "Oh, if you baptize someone, then wow, they can be born again just because you baptize them." On the other hand, to go to the other extreme, "No, it's nothing. It's just do it to obey Christ." And it's like, he doesn't usually give us commands that don't have any significance to them. So yeah, we get baptized for the remission of sins. Not that the literal water can do that, but it's the power of God. Who's got 1 Peter? Okay. What's the verse? 1 Peter 3:21? Yeah. 3:21. "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for good conscience."

Therefore, I'm sorry, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Okay. So the appeal to God for good conscience, which is referring to the forgiveness of sins, that we get baptized, yeah, all of our past sins are forgiven. We arise to a new life. All of that is forgiven. That's been put behind us. So we now can have a clear conscience before God.

Assuming that we have come to, and I like the way the Schleinheim says it, you're coming to baptism with that significance, "I am dying to my sin. This is it. I've repented of my former way of life." It says there in Acts that they were cut to the heart. So if we come to baptism and we haven't repented of our sins and we're not ready to die to our old life, yeah, don't get baptized.

I'm not saying that the baptism isn't valid. I don't know. Just I think it's important. And certainly the early Anabaptists, God this across the people, "Okay, are you ready to die to your sins and start a new life? Have you repented of your sins?" And they wouldn't give baptism to someone unless they were in that state of mind, state of heart.

Any other thoughts on that? I want to say something about that. Because I was baptized at Shamus Creek, okay? And I was 70. And when you were how old? 70. 70. Yeah. Oh, okay. I thought that's what you said.

Okay. And I was being baptized. Now, I agree with you about the Catholic Church too, that it has become so symbolic it was meaningless. But I was baptized with 14, 15-year-olds. There were 10 of us. And I do believe that even at that age, these young people are not aware of all the implications of life. And that Jesus was baptized at the age of 30, where you had far more exposure to life.

And I think it becomes more meaningful if you're baptized at an older age rather than a youthful age where you're in your teens and you don't really experience and understand life. It's just my opinion.

There's different opinions on that. One of the early Christians, Tertullian, he expressed a thought similar to yours. The other thought is, okay, you're going into teenage years. This is, yeah, a time when a lot of people stray and you need that power of baptism and that.

There's arguments to either side of the question. And a lot of people, particularly when you get into the 4th century, they waited till they were 70. They thought, "Well, since it's going to all my past sins are forgiven, let me get most of them." I'm not saying you did that. I'm not. Yeah. No, I didn't take it that way. Christ in prison.

Christ in prison. Yeah. No, I knew that. So anyway, there's room for more than one opinion. I got baptized when I was 14. I knew what I was doing. I wanted to walk with Christ. But not everyone who's 14 is ready for that.

And you mentioned like 10 people got baptized. And that may have been perfectly legitimate. On the other hand, when there's a whole bunch of people always worry or people doing it because, "Oh, my friends are getting baptized. I better get baptized too." And you don't ever want to do that. It needs to be just one-on-one commitment between you and Christ. And the minister needs to be sure everybody understands the significance of this. But anyway, we are glad. And that's the wonderful thing about grace.

You can have a whole long lifetime of sin, and grace works the same way.

But it works the same way in both directions too, that, yeah, we are not to go on sinning. So it's nice to come to Christ early in life and be able to serve him your entire life. But if you turn back, then yeah, it's some serious consequences. Again, we can repent, and grace doesn't disappear.

None of us, it doesn't matter how godly of a life we live, ever deserve eternal life. I mean, none of us, if we got what we deserved, not a single one of us would get eternal life. But God is merciful, yeah, even after baptism. But this whole message is, yeah, we are to die to sin. We're going to stumble. It's not all over. Let's look at those last two verses then.

Verses, yeah, 6 through 8. "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now, if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him." Okay. Any thoughts on that?

So I don't know. I'm doing all the speaking. I feel a little embarrassed. But I don't want to draw it in. But I do believe that once you get baptized and you're born again, there's a sanctification process that starts.

And the more you die to the world and turn away from material things and love your brother, as the way Jesus asked us to, that you'll sanctify yourself to a point where the Holy Spirit actually takes complete control of you theoretically.

Yeah. It is a process. It starts when we're born again. We don't start off sanctified. Would someone read 2 Corinthians 4:16 and perhaps somebody else Ephesians 4:22 through 24?

While they're looking at it, does anyone have any thoughts? Paul doesn't define the old man. He just says the old man was crucified with him. What do you think the old man is?

So I'm talking about somebody who's 70.

The old man was crucified. Yeah, Daniel. Well, I was going to read a verse. Okay. Galatians 2:20 or 19 and 20. "Christ through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I live now is in the flesh. I live by the faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself to me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for the right court of righteousness comes through the law, and Christ died in vain."

Okay. So also in Galatians 5, at the very end, it talks about being crucified with Christ. It talks about if we live by the simple nature, the flesh, we're not going to inherit the kingdom of God. And then it talks about the preacher's spirit.

And it says that we've died and we've nailed our old passions and desires to the cross and crucified them there. And so we don't live in them anymore, and we have to follow Christ. And so it's just our old self. I mean. Yeah. I think it's a good way to put it. Our old self before we surrendered our life to Christ and died to sin. Okay.

Just a second. I believe old man is referring to an Adam fell and put the world into a state of sin. And that's why he's referring to it as the old man. Because since that point in time, we've all been influenced by his fall, susceptible to all the sin in this world. And that's why it's old, because it started with Adam.

Yeah. So we're born again. There's different views on that. We talked about this, I don't know what, when we were in Romans 5. I tend to believe that we inherit some sort of fallen nature or sin nature from Adam. Some people feel it's an environment of sin that we're born into. Either way, we all end up sinning. That's for sure. And there's that old man in Adam that he talks about in Romans 5 that needs to die. The biblical law has a bar mitzvah or ba mitzvah at 14 years old. That's when you're considered to become a man in the Jewish culture. Could it be considered?

Could it be stating that? Old man, meaning you become a man at 14 and you make a decision then after? I don't know. I don't know if they did that in Paul's day or not.

But yeah, at least in Jewish culture, they feel you've reached the age of accountability. And I thought it was 13, but I'm not Jewish. Yeah. Yeah. It's about in there that the Jews have, as far as I know, certainly back to Jesus' time, have looked at that as the age of accountability.

With this infant baptism, that's what I'm thinking. They define a person becoming a man or a woman at 13. So baptism should have happened before that prior. I don't know if I'm making a loose connection or. Yeah. Your favorite seat is available.

If you're wondering, no one's sitting there. I just didn't want to be conspicuous. Oh. And so I made you conspicuous.

My apologies. My apologies. I thought you were afraid you might be taking somebody's seat and glad to have you with us. Okay. Did someone have 2 Corinthians? I can get it. Okay. 2 Corinthians 4:16, "Therefore we do not lose heart, even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day."

Okay. So does that sound like it's a once and done or that it's an ongoing process?

Ongoing. Yeah. Yeah. So it would be so nice if you were buried, died in baptism, buried with Christ, and that is all over. It just doesn't work that way. It is a daily struggle. Daily we have to keep crucifying the flesh. But as born-again Christians, we have the power of Christ. We're not on our own doing this, or it would be impossible. But yeah, we have that power. And that's why Jesus said, "If you bear fruit, you can do nothing on your own," but he requires us to bear fruit. So we play some part in that. And a lot of that is just surrendering ourselves and let the Holy Spirit control our lives and walk in the way Christ set before us.

Okay. In Ephesians 4, did somebody look that up? Ephesians 4:22 through 24. Jason? "That you put off concerning your former conduct the old man, which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lust, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man, which was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness." Okay.

Now, what to me is significant about that is Paul is writing to Christians, to the saints in Ephesus. He's not talking about people who are not saved, but he says, "Put on the new man." So yeah, in one sense, it's what we do when we are originally born again, when we're originally baptized. But then it's also a daily thing.

In other words, there's two phases of it. The same with salvation, two phases. When we get baptized, when we give our life to Christ, we are saved. But then we have to walk with Christ faithfully to ultimately be accepted once we die. And once we die, then the battle's over and all of that. Now, he uses the verb walk. Do you see any significance in that in Romans?

Where does he say that?

Oh, I'm back in verse 4. "We should walk in newness of life."

Life's significance is that it's an act of life. Yeah. Walking involves progress. I mean, you know, I mean, you're standing is just, yeah. He doesn't say stand. He says walk in the newness of life. And I think for a very good reason that, yeah, we should be progressing, that this is where I was when I was baptized, and this is where I am now. I mean, some people go at a faster rate than others. But if we're just standing still, then yeah, that's not good.

It should be a continual progress through our life. We should always be able to look back and, "Oh, yeah, where I was, and here I am now." Now, sometimes we may stumble and it's the other way around. Then we need to pick ourselves up. Christ is still there. He's on our side and pick up wherever we are and start walking again. But yeah, we are to be moving forward, not just standing still and becoming rigid stones. Okay. Well, I appreciate all of the comments, and I'll put out where we will. I don't know if we'll go to Romans 7 next week or do the last half of Romans 6. Thank you again, everyone. Thank you for being a part of the Sound Faith Channel as we expand the kingdom of God, seizing territory from Satan with every broadcast.

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