Carnal Christianity!!! Can you be Carnal and Christian? David Bercot

Well, this morning we're going to be looking at a passage in Romans that has confused people for probably 2,000 years. This is Romans 7:14-25.

It makes me think of Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:15-16. We read this last year when we were starting Romans. "Our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

So it's sort of a divine warning that there are things in Paul's letters hard to understand, and he mentions all his epistles. To me, Galatians is pretty simple compared to Romans. If Galatians has things hard to understand, I don't know what you do with Romans because it is definitely chapter after chapter; there's enigmas in it.

So why don't we read this passage together? I didn't put it on the PowerPoint just because it's a long passage. Romans 7, we'll start with verse 14. The discussion here is about the Mosaic Law, and he says it begins with verse 14, "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If then I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, nothing good dwells. For to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind, I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

So the description there is of somebody who's definitely, would you say they're living in spiritual victory?

No, it's a pretty sad picture. So the question that I guess they were asking probably when Romans, when they first received the letter in Rome, is Paul talking about himself here in that description, or is he speaking in the voice of another character?

And I'm going to be arguing that he's speaking in the voice of another character, that this is not Paul talking about himself. And here's just some passages to think about. Paul told the Corinthians, "Imitate me just as I also imitate Christ."

Now, if he can't do the good he wants to do but does everything he doesn't want to do, why would he tell people to imitate him? And he should probably be saying, "Don't imitate me. Try to follow Christ because I try to do good, but everything I want to do, I don't do. And everything I don't want to do is what I end up doing."

Or in his letter, earlier in that letter to the Corinthians, he says, "I run in this manner, not with uncertainty. I fight in this manner, not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

So here he's describing himself as someone who lives under great discipline, that he brings his body into subjection, that he doesn't live a life of failure and sin.

Or in his second letter to Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 6:3-7, he says, "We," talking about him and perhaps the others writing the letter with him, "we give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed. But in all things, we commend ourselves as ministers of God, in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings, by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left."

So reading that description, what would you think of Paul reading that description? What would you say about him?

Somebody who can't accomplish what he wants?

Disciplined person. Okay. A very disciplined person? Definitely not word of faith.

Definitely not word of faith. For those of you who aren't aware of what he's meaning, that would be the charismatic movement that do you want to just explain briefly? Yes. Word of faith. It says, "The word of faith is neither even and not immaculate of mouth." And so what you confess, you can bring into actuality.

And they take this to an extreme. They put that kind of scriptural honest truth on steroids. And so you should never have to worry about poverty or lack or lack of health. Yeah. Sort of the health and wealth gospel, I would call it that. Yeah. And so you read Paul's life, and yeah, he's in fasting, should probably say in hunger, the word there. And yeah, and he describes this in more than one place, that in prison, anything but a health and prosperity gospel that he lived and that he preached.

Okay.

And then let's look at some of the counsel that he gave the Romans and other Christians in his letters.

Romans 12:1-2, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

Okay. So he's telling the Romans in this same letter to offer themselves as living sacrifices to be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of their mind. And then is he saying, "Well, yeah, but despite that, I can't do the good that I want to do. Whatever I will, I do the opposite. The things I hate, I end up doing them." Well, then how can he tell the Romans to be transformed and to offer themselves as living sacrifices if he's not doing that himself, if he's living this defeated life?

Or the Ephesians, he told them, "Put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man that grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new man, which was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness."

So the description we just read there in Romans 7, would you say that sounds like someone who's put on the new man, that he's been transformed? It really doesn't. I mean, it sounds like somebody who's just living in spiritual defeat, that what they want to do, they don't ever accomplish. So like I say, you've got a contradiction within Romans. If Paul is talking about himself, then he's saying one thing. He's telling the Romans to do one thing, and then he's admitting, "Yeah, all this counsel I'm giving you, I'm not able to live by it, but maybe you guys can. But yeah, I don't get anywhere myself."

So what do you think is happening here? Do any of you have any theories or thoughts?

Yes, Mike? Yeah. I think it's kind of like how in the previous chapters, he was having this back-and-forth question-and-answer session with this character. I think that's kind of going on here because in verse 5 of chapter 7, it says, "For when we were in the flesh, wrapped by the law, was that working our members therefore today?" In the past tense, we. Right. Then over in verse 13, he asks this other question, "Has then what is good become death to me?" Certainly not. So then I think in verse 14, it kind of takes over this hypothetical character that's like, "Well, yeah, we know that the law is spiritual, but I mean, I'm carnal. I'm sold under sin.

I'm this. I'm that. I want to do it, but I can't, blah, blah, blah." And so then he answers that, and I think often what's missed is chapter 8, verse 1, which is, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." So he answers that hypothetical excuse guy, like, "Yeah, but there's" so it kind of comes full circle there. He's like, "We were in that, but we're not anymore. So what then? Is the law death? No. Oh, yeah, well.

Okay. I know it's spiritual, but I used to do this, and I can't overcome." And then he comes back with, "Well, we're not walking after the flesh anymore." So that's what I think. I don't know. Yeah. No, that's good. In fact, probably chapter 8, verse 1, the chapters and verses, I think most of you, we've said this enough, they're man-made.

Paul didn't, in his letters, "Okay. Chapter 8, verse 1." That's something like a thousand years later, they put all of that in. But yeah, chapter 8, verse 1 maybe should be the end of chapter 7 because it kind of shows, "Okay. I'm not talking about myself here." Yeah, Daniel.

Yeah. I was actually going to say something similar, but I think it should end at around verse 11 of chapter. Do you mind reading since we got the mic? Okay. 8, 1 through 11. Okay. Yeah. I would have in the audience. We're recording this, and so just to make it a little bit better on the recording. Okay. So chapter 8, "There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." So what we've just read there about this carnal man who's sold under sin, well, that's not what he's talking about in verse 8. He says, "Who do not walk according to the flesh, but walk according to the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do," and this is talking about the Mosaic law there in verse 3, "in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh on account of sin. He condemned sin in the flesh that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

To which verse? 11. 11. Okay. "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then those who are in the flesh," meaning living a fleshly life, "cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now, if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."

So if chapter 7, if the end of it, Paul is talking about himself, that I'm carnal, sold under sin, and all that, and he turns around saying, "If you live in sin, you're not Christ. You're living in the flesh. You're not living in the Spirit." So the two, yeah, either this is Paul in chapter 8, or it's Paul in chapter 7, but it can't be both because he describes two completely opposite things. Yes, Dale?

So one of the benefits of a symptom of a disease is to help you identify the disease. So you say, "I have this symptom, and I must have this disease." Well, in a way, chapter 7, verses 14 to 26, is Paul's right, Paul is saying, "If you have this condition within yourself, then you can know that this is where you're at spiritually. Now, here's where you should be. But this is how you can identify it. If any of us are struggling," what Paul describes, "we should know where we're at spiritually." Right. So you can look at both of those. If chapter 7 fits you, then yeah, this isn't where you need to be.

Chapter 8 is where you should be, and certainly where Paul would have been. Now, I want to read some quotes to you from the early Christians. They're not scripture, but I want to show you this isn't me saying this, or this isn't just this congregation.

I looked at about every writer who talks about this passage, and I don't have them all here today because I didn't want to wear you out with quotations, but they all say the same thing. Okay? Chrysostom, and he's writing about this passage. "Here he is giving us a sketch of man living either under the law or else before the law.

Observe the wisdom of Paul, for when he says sold under sin, he is referring not only to those under the law, but also to those who had lived before the law." So Paul says, "The law was good," but then he says, "But I am carnal, sold under sin." Okay. He's talking about those who are living under the Mosaic law, trying to find the way to God through the Mosaic law. And this is the kind of struggle that they had. Because we talked about this last week, all the law could do was to tell you what was right and wrong, and it had a system of offering animal sacrifices, which couldn't take away your sin. They were more a reminder of the fact of it.

So that was the problem with the law. The law is good. He said, "The law is spiritual, but it had no power in it. It could tell you what was good and bad." It was a big step up between the law and the period before the law when people didn't have anything except the natural law God had given them. So the Mosaic law was a big step up. People could understand, "Oh, this isn't pleasing to God. This isn't pleasing to God," all of that.

But there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was, "Okay. This is what you shouldn't do, and this is what you should do," but no power, no true forgiveness of sins, no blood that could take away our sins. So yeah, life under the law is, "Okay. This is what's right. This is what's right. I want to do that, but I don't have any power to do it." So that's the wonderful Paul is trying to help us see this contrast of life under the law. And so he's using impersonation of a person living under the law or maybe before the law, before Christ, either way.

Origen says, "When Paul says, 'But I am carnal, sold into slavery under sin,' although a teacher of the church, he has now taken upon himself the persona or character of the weak." Remember, in 1 Corinthians, he says, "To the weak, I become weak." So Origen's saying that's what he's doing in this passage. "In my opinion, whoever insists that these things are written about the actual person of the apostle strikes every soul with utter despair."

Why would it strike every soul with utter despair?

Because it's walking into it. Yeah. It's like, "Wow, if this lion of Christianity, I mean, who just goes everywhere, suffers everything for Christ, if in the end, yeah, I just live in sin, I'm carnal, sold under sin, well, what am I supposed to do?" I mean, if Paul couldn't live the Christian life, then yeah, utter despair for the rest of us.

Go ahead. Yes. Where I was from, at least, it was actually the opposite because, well, if Paul couldn't do it, then we don't need to do it, so let's just know the matter. We did read this Paul, so it's like, "We can do it. It must mean we can no matter how much we mess up, it doesn't really matter." It's not us.

It's. Yeah. Exactly. So when I attended an evangelical church, was a member of it, yeah, I heard this priest. This is Paul. And it's like, "So yeah, that's the Christian life. There's ideals out here, but you're not going to be able to live it. Even Paul couldn't. So don't be too concerned about sin." We preached against sin. We encouraged living a godly life. And certainly, I would say most in the church made an honest attempt. But yeah, it was always, "Well, you're not really going to be able to do it, so it's all Christ. Christ can do it in you, but you can't do anything. And so if Christ isn't doing it in you, then there's nothing you can do about that.

You don't have any power." And I can't say that's twisting scripture because that would be the natural reading if you're just reading along and you're not trying to make Romans harmonize within itself. Yeah. I mean, Paul doesn't say, "Now, I'm going to describe what it was like under the law."

But this is Paul. As Peter says, I mean, things are hard to understand. I mean, it's all throughout the book of Romans. You get to this passage and what is he saying? This contradicts what he just he got through saying.

That's Paul's way of writing. But like I say, when you go to chapter 8, it's like, "Well, if he's talking about himself in chapter 7, then chapter 8 makes no sense because he's telling people that if you live this way, then you're not of Christ," which would mean Paul was not of Christ. And so he's writing all these letters, and this guy couldn't even live the Christian life. Okay. Theodoret.

Again, that same passage. "But I am carnal, sold under sin." He says, "Here, Paul brings before us the man who lived before the coming of grace, tormented by his desires. For by carnal, Paul means one who had not yet received Christ's spiritual help." So grace, I know a lot of people think grace means undeserved kindness, unmerited favor. And it can mean that. It often does. But there's a lot more that grace, the period of grace is also a time of receiving power from Christ and receiving forgiveness of sins. But the power is there as well. It's not just forgiveness. It is power that we need from Christ. So we can live the Christian life. But yes, I mean, the evangelical church I went to was right.

You're not going to be able to do it on your own strength without the power of Christ. They just didn't emphasize with the power of Christ, you can live a sanctified life, not a perfect life. We all struggle with false failings and all of that, and that will be to the end. But we can live a reasonably obedient life.

Cyril of Jerusalem. He says, "And of course, a lot of people in the church were arguing, 'Well, see, Paul couldn't do it, so I can't do it either.'" And so these writers are having to counter ones who were saying that. Now, I didn't find a single teacher in the church who was saying that was Paul, but obviously, others were saying it. So Cyril says, "Having come into this world sinless, we now sin out of our own free will." The point being, it's not out of necessity that we sin. It's free will. "So I beg of you, do not listen to anyone who perversely interprets the words, 'I do that which I do not desire.'" So he's calling it a perverse interpretation to say, "Well, see, this is how Paul was living, that he was doing what he didn't desire, and so none of us can help it."

He continues, "Instead, remember the words, 'As you formerly yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness and lawlessness unto lawlessness, even so, now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.'" So it's up to us. I mean, he's saying yield.

We make that decision whether we are going to yield. But we can become slaves to righteousness by yielding ourselves up to Christ, allowing him to work within us. He doesn't work in unwilling souls. He could. He would have that power, but he chooses not to. He wants to work with willing souls who want to surrender their life to his power.

Methodius, who wrote in the 200s, he asked the following questions to those who imagine that Paul was talking about himself in this passage. He says, "Please explain then what evil it was that the apostle hated and wished not to do, but still did it anyway.

Also, please explain what good thing it was that he wished to do, but failed to do. Finally, explain how he could exhort us to put away all types of sin and could say, 'Imitate me just as I imitate Christ.'" So yeah, if you're going to say that's Paul, then yeah, explain why he said, "Imitate me," because he should be saying, "Don't imitate me." Maybe Peter or somebody else, but I'm carnal, sold under sin. What I want to do, I don't do. I mean, he would have to say that. But he says, "No, imitate me just as I imitate Christ." Well, he wasn't imitating Christ if he was carnal, sold under sin.

Now, and maybe I should have asked this in the I didn't send this out. Can anyone think of any examples in scripture of someone speaking in the character of someone else?

It's not an easy question. I don't know that I would have necessarily come up with one without a lot of thought on the matter. So this isn't necessarily an answer to that. I can sit here thinking, I wonder, this makes me wonder, I guess, what kind of inner turmoil Paul himself was experiencing before his conversion.

And it's interesting, his own testimony of himself was he was zealous, he was perfect according to the law. He obviously was a very, very extremely disciplined person, I think, even before his conversion. And yet, there was some kind of conflict going on within himself, and it could be. I'm not going to say it is, but I kind of get the feeling he may be thinking back to his own life. I mean, he was obviously fighting against God. Jesus said that himself when he confronted him there on the road. He said, "You're kicking against the bricks or whatever."

So Paul seemed to recognize that, that obviously, he was fighting against the very person he thought he was serving. And that creates an inner kind of turmoil of wanting to do something yet not ever quite reaching that. Yeah.

That's a good point. Paul lived under the law before he was converted. So he knew he could speak from experience what life under the law was like. And no doubt he led a life that a Jew would say, "Okay. This is a good, upright man." But yeah, he would have recognized all of these things that he lacked power to overcome. So he could speak from experience, also the experience of other Jews that he worked with who maybe weren't Paul's and were, yeah, totally struggling to walk with God at all.

Well, one passage, and I think some of the Psalms might fit this as well, but I'm not positive of I'm not sure everyone fits the writer is talking about themselves in the Psalms. But Origen mentioned this example. He mentioned several things. But Daniel, now we know from reading Daniel, this was an upright, godly man. I mean, there's nothing recorded of Daniel doing anything wrong. Of course, he wasn't sinless. We know that. But I mean, yeah, he's upright. There's no failings at all connected with Daniel.

And yet, listen to this passage. This is Daniel saying, "I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession and said, 'O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant and mercy with those who love him and with those who keep his commandments, we have sinned and committed iniquity. We have done wickedly and rebelled.'" Now, when did Daniel do wickedly? When did he rebel against God? I mean, he was taken as just a, I think, teenager captivity. And we see how upright he was even as a very young man, as a teen. "Even by departing from your precepts and your judgments," Daniel departed from God's precepts. "Neither, now listen to this, neither have we heeded your servants, the prophets."

Well, he was one of the prophets. Daniel didn't heed the prophets. I mean, he was one of the prophets. So he can't be talking about himself. He's talking about the nation of Israel as a whole, but he talks about it in first person. "We have done this thing.

Neither have we heeded your servants, the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land." And there's some other ones which time won't permit us to go into where, like I say, prophets would take on themselves the persona or character of fallen Israel, of rebellious Israel. And they would talk in first person, "We have done this or that," which they're not personally guilty of, but they're speaking the way the nation as a whole was. And that's what Paul is doing in Romans of what life under the law before the coming of Christ, before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, what it was like, that you wanted to do the right thing, or at least many people did, but they found they didn't have the power to do it.

So I think the good news from this lesson is, hallelujah, we do have the power. We can rejoice. We can live in chapter 8 of Romans, free from bondage to sin. Not a perfect life, but we can live an obedient life, what God expects of fallen humans. Well, thank you for your attention.