S2S Books: "It's Not Your Business" by Gary Miller
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🎧 Audio Player with Transcript
Okay, Brother Gary, so thank you for joining us here this afternoon on this topic. And by the way, this topic is based out of a book that Brother Gary wrote back in 2015 titled, "It's Not Your Business." We do have this book 10% off over on Strength to Strength, so we'll drop a link here in the chat, and you're able to get it there if you do not have that book. I highly recommend it. And this has a lot of the concepts that Brother Gary will be talking about here this afternoon. So before we jump in, let's just pause for prayer here. Let's pray. Father, thank you for this opportunity to connect to you this afternoon on this important topic of business.
And Father, we want to be about our father's business. We want to be those who are seeking first the kingdom of God and your righteousness, and trusting you that you will add all these things unto us. So Father, I pray that through this talk we could grow in understanding and also how to implement our businesses wisely in our communities and know how to steward them well to whom much is given, much is required. And so Father, make us faithful stewards by your grace. So bless this call, and we ask this in Jesus' name.
Amen. All right, Brother Gary, go ahead. Okay, thank you. I'll share my screen here. Brian asked if I would share a little about my own experience in business. And so before, I currently work in the SALT program. Some of you would be familiar with that. And before that, though, I worked in construction, beginning in residential construction and then working in commercial construction, mainly municipal work, state projects, some federal work. And then I got involved with SALT and then left the business world in one sense and started working in the nonprofit world. However, the nonprofit with SALT is very much surrounding business. So I'm involved still in business in a much smaller scale with small businesses in different countries around the globe.
So my goal in this talk today is to, I don't want to say elevate, but maybe shine a light on business for a little and the ways in which God can use it as we reach out, as we demonstrate who Jesus is in our communities.
And I would just start with this. If I would go to your community right now and ask your neighbors who you are and just about your life and what is it that he loves and what is it he values, they would have some conclusions. They would have some opinions. They would have a perspective.
But where do you think they arrived at these conclusions? Do you think they've spent a lot of time in your statements of faith that you've spent a lot of time on with in your church or maybe other doctrinal writings? And maybe they have, but I would suggest that your unbelieving neighbors, actually, most of the impressions that they have got from you is by your life, by your attitude, by your behaviors, and to a large extent, it comes from the marketplace, by how they've been treated, how they've been worked with. A lot of their conclusions come from that. And so in one sense, businessmen are the face of Christianity to an unbelieving world.
And so we tend many times to separate out business and missions. And yet, in a very real sense, I think we've underestimated the power of business. So if you're in business today, I would ask you, why are you in business? And what is the overriding goal and vision for your business?
I want to walk through a presentation here, and I'm going to look at five different areas. But again, my goal is for you to leave and conclude this presentation with a little more excitement about the potential there is in business.
I want to start with what I'm calling compartmentalized Christianity, our tendency to separate out our religious, spiritual life from our business and occupational life. I want to also think about secular business with spiritual skin. When we separate our occupations from our spiritual, yet we still call it a Christian business, some strange anomalies are created sometimes.
Reconciling Proverbs and Jesus. There's different views within our communities regarding business and wealth, and everyone seems to have a supporting scripture to back up their position. But there's differences in the Old and New Testament concerning wealth and possessions. I want to look at that a little bit. Kingdom-focused business, what might a Christ-centered business actually look like? If we drew a picture of that, what would that be? And when we do that, I'd like for you to ask yourself, if you're in business, is it actually honest to call yourself or call your business kingdom-focused? And then finally, I want to end with what I would call the danger and the dream in business. What are the potential dangers and what are the dreams we might have of ways in which we can actually use our businesses?
I've been encouraged recently with young men who are vocalizing, verbalizing a desire to start businesses or even use existing businesses to advance the kingdom of God. I think that's exciting to me. I hope more of that continues. But let's start with our tendency to divide our lives or compartmentalize.
We're like our creator in that most of us with a sound mind, we dislike chaos. We enjoy order. And so out of that, we tend to divide our lives into separate compartments, maybe a little like a cafeteria tray. And I personally like cafeteria trays. I don't like my gravy leaking over into my salad. I don't like that. So I kind of like those little walls around there that keep it all together. But it's so easy for us to also do the same thing with our Christianity.
And so we have our prayer life, our reading the Bible in our church, our sacred, if you will, in one little compartment over here. But our occupations are paying the bills, our hoeing the gardens. All that is secular. It's another little compartment over here. And we draw clear lines then sometimes between these compartments. Now, I want to begin by acknowledging the tension. There's some good reasons besides just avoiding chaos for doing this.
Jesus said something like this, "So what is it profited if a man gains the whole world and yet loses his soul?" So he was doing that. He was separating these two out. Story of Mary and Martha. Martha was giving undue attention to physical things, and Jesus called her out on that. And so there is, in a sense, some separation needs to happen. In other words, we are to emphasize the spiritual. We're to focus on the unseen.
But we forget many times God's transcendency. The kingdom of Jesus is actually including all of it. And it includes interacting with and redeeming the physical world that we live in. So our occupations then are more than just a platform to demonstrate the gospel. Work itself, when properly done, also demonstrates the very character of God. Now, our work, I want to talk a little about our perception and problem with work. We have been impacted by our culture. And we tend, I think, too much, especially in the time of technology, to view work in a negative sense.
I saw this cartoon a while back. I did nothing today and still got paid. And that's wonderful. We can do nothing and still get paid. But we forget that actually God has something in work that's very important. And so today, the search is on for the high-paying job where little is actually required of us. And getting paid for doing nothing is like a wonderful thing. But the result of that is we forget that God has a plan and purpose in our work. And I want to look at that just a little closer for a minute.
Work well done brings glory to God. Work well done is one of the ways God declares his glory. Remember Psalm 19, "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firm that showeth his handiwork." We look at the precision of stars and planets and the way biology works together and even like a bird flying. All that brings glory to God because he made it.
The same is true in our lives. When a machine works well, it tends to bring glory or praise to the manufacturer. And so God receives pleasure when a man is doing what he was created for, which is work.
And so in our own lives, when we create a good product, when we provide a good service, we're actually bringing glory to God. And that's true actually in believer and unbeliever alike. This factor is just when men work well, it brings glory to God.
It's important to us believers that we pass that praise on. But another purpose of work is enjoyment and fulfillment. Just as God, we see in Genesis, receives pleasure from work well done, he wants us to do that as well. And we are missing something when we don't enjoy that. When we stack wood well, I think all of us have experienced standing back and looking at a stack of wood, and there's something about it that's just fulfilling.
Now, God has given different gifts, and we'll get into that a little later. But it's important to note here that this is one of the reasons why it's essential or important anyway that we find occupations that actually fit us, that fit our talents, that fit our giftings. And those are different. Those are very varied. God has made us that way. I remember one time talking to someone in a horse and buggy community, and there had been a man who was highly trained in the medical world who had come and joined their community. And they made the comment about him. They said, "He wants to fit in here, but he's struggling. It doesn't really fit who he is.
All of his life, he's been trained in one thing, and now he's trying to do something else." And we will struggle sometimes to find pleasure if we don't actually have the gifting for the thing we're doing. But some ways that we find enjoyment. One is the thrill of challenge. Most men need challenge. And there's something we enjoy, something that's difficult, and figuring out how to overcome it. So in my life in construction, one of the things that I got involved in for a while in real high-end homes was hidden doors, hidden stairways, hidden closets, hidden gunrooms. And I remember laying in bed at night just trying to think of some way to hide. It was a very difficult thing to do, but I enjoyed that.
I enjoyed overcoming that obstacle. One of my favorite things was when an architect would say, "I don't think we can do this." And I would go home and lay in bed, just dream of how I could actually accomplish this. That's actually of God. It's part of having dominion over the earth. It's part of conquering.
Unfortunately, today, men do this with video games. It's the same thing. It's a thrill of the challenge, the satisfaction of accomplishment. I mentioned this regarding stacking wood. I remember in our community years ago, we had a woman from the community who had spent a good part of her life laying on a couch on welfare. And one of the brothers in our community reached out to her and gave her a job, and it was simply pulling nails out of boards.
I remember her telling me one time, "You don't know what it's like at the end of the day to look back and see boards that you took nails out of." Now, you might think that's a pretty small thing, but it's the way God made us.
We need some feeling of accomplishment from what we are doing. Work also demonstrates the character of God. We are made in his image. He was a worker, is a worker. Let's look at a few ways in which we demonstrate God's characteristics. One is creating order from chaos.
Think about this in the creation account. So we read about chaos. The earth was without form and void. And then there was action. The Spirit of God moved over the waters, and then something began to happen. And the result was that God saw everything that he had made and noticed the fulfillment and satisfaction behold, it was very good. So God took chaos, produced order, something beautiful out of that, and then there was fulfillment and satisfaction.
I would suggest that a farmer does the same thing every year when he takes a barren field that's worthless and converts it into something that's productive. He is really, in one sense, reenacting something that his creator did. God loves to see us transform chaos into productivity, and we enjoy that. It's part of demonstrating the character of God. Developing new ideas and designs. When a man develops better products, when he invents new machines, when he does things like that, he's actually demonstrating one of the characteristics of God himself.
Restoring and renewing. When a carpenter takes an old farmhouse and improves it and makes it better, that's who God is. That's what conversion is all about. He's demonstrating a character of God of improving something. But when we devalue the physical, end up with compartmentalized Christianity, we remove God. And when we remove God from our businesses, from the teachings of Jesus, from our businesses, from our occupations, we end up with what I call secular business with spiritual skin.
And I think it's ugly, actually. But let me just real quickly describe what I mean. Sometimes we take a secular business that's secular at the heart. You could say under the hood. It's secular. And yet we maybe put Bible verses on our business cards or a few tracks on the counter, and we call it a Christian business. And yet under the hood, it actually looks very different. It operates with the same motives, the same intent as secular businesses just down the street. Well, look just a little closer at this.
One of the things that you'll see in a secular business with spiritual skin is a business is business mentality. And I would describe it like this. The businessman, he might be a leader in the church, actually. He might be the bishop. And on Sunday morning, he's kind and considerate to members of the church, and he reaches out to people, and it's easy for him to share financially even with those in need. But Monday morning comes, and a shift happens. And suddenly, he wears a different hat. And suddenly, he's known for driving a hard bargain. And vendors and customers now are not like the struggling sister at church on Sunday morning. Now, vendors and customers are simply people to extract money from, a way to get money from them.
And it's possible in our lives to blend these two worlds seamlessly, to get very good at this, of acting one way with our spiritual hat on and act a totally different way with our business hat on.
Giving, the end justifies the means. As long as profits from my business are going to missions, it doesn't really matter. But do you think God is really pleased by doing everything we can to get as much money out of people and justifying that simply because we send the money off somewhere else?
And I would say I personally believe this is a struggle in some of our conservative communities. I remember talking to an individual several years ago.
And he had been raised in an area where there was not a high concentration of conservative Christians. And he had come to an understanding of kingdom Christianity, I'll say. And he just longed someday to move to an area where there were a lot of conservative Christians there that he agreed with. And he told me he moved. And he told me after a few years, he said, "I assumed that these people would take the teachings of Jesus seriously in their business, just like they did with non-resistance, just like they did with lots of other teachings of Jesus on divorce and remarriage." But he said, "Actually, it's just the opposite." He said, "I would actually rather work for or with some of my non-believing neighbors than with them."
Now, that's a shame. That means something is disconnected. That's secular business with spiritual skin. The slippery secular slope. I just want to say this: that it's very easy, if we're not purposeful, to end up with businesses that actually are secular at the heart. And we do that when the business world around us becomes our primary reference point.
When we are reading business magazines all the time, we're comparing our business with their business. We're comparing debt load with theirs, sales growth with theirs. In other words, secular business becomes our reference point. One of these, I think, is extremely dangerous: advice from secular business coaches. If you're going to bring someone in to give you advice on how to operate your business to demonstrate Jesus, then he should have a vision for demonstrating Jesus. Otherwise, you're going to end up with a business that's simply secular business with spiritual skin.
One of our fears, I think, as businessmen sometimes, and the reason this slope is slippery, is we have a hidden fear that Jesus would go broke. That if Jesus actually operated in my context, in my setting, that he would probably not—business wouldn't thrive. And I want to say this to begin with: that is possible. I think there are some businesses that Jesus would not be involved in. I'm not going to get specific with that. But the question I think we wrestle with is this: are the teachings of Jesus actually relevant in modern America?
So if I would do unto others as I want them to do unto me, what might actually happen in my business? If I would provide more than my customers expect, would I lose money? And this list could be very long here, but I want to just stop here and ask you this: what is your greatest fear?
Is your greatest fear losing money, or is it failing to follow Jesus? But this fear can cause us to adopt a business-is-business mentality. Now, the result of secular business with spiritual skin is this: we have created, I believe, a high suspicion of Christian businessmen. And people fail to be able to see Christian and mission on the same page because they've been burnt too many times with simply secular business with spiritual skin.
When I was writing the book, It's Not Your Business, I took a survey in the middle of writing that. And I asked some questions, and I'll read them off here. Number one, if you hear that a Christian businessman has 100 employees, is your first thought positive or negative?
Two, is a man more spiritual if he, A, is an employer, B, is employed by someone else, C, operates a small family-based business, or D, is a missionary? Three, does God call some to be missionaries? Four, does God call some to be businessmen? And five, can a follower of Jesus become owner of a large business?
Now, just think about that in your own mind real quickly as we move on here. How would you answer those questions? You can look at the Bible and the New Testament, and the disciples left their occupations to follow Jesus.
So does that mean that every person who's serious about following Jesus is going to leave his occupation? And I would hear those kinds of things from people. And I learned something, and simply this: we don't all agree. And I divided out the responses I got from that little survey into three basic categories, and you'll find this in the book, It's Not Your Business. Production Pauls, I described those as people who like business. They're not afraid of business. They can't understand why everybody's in business. Everybody should be in business. In fact, large business is even better.
Larry Little, he's okay with business as long as it's pretty small, maybe two or three employees, but don't get much larger than that. And then Servant Sam, stay far, far away from ownership and especially large business. He can't imagine Jesus doing anything but simply working for someone else. And the fascinating thing was they all had verses out of the Bible to back up their position.
So how can that be? I want to look closer a little bit at how we use Scripture with regard to this topic. And I'm going to look specifically at reconciling Proverbs and Jesus. But we wrestle with this sometimes because we're fearful of saying that the Bible might contradict itself or say different things in different places, especially with wealth and possessions.
However, I want to remind you that we do actually do this in other places very easily. I remember our daughter was pretty young. She was probably three or four years old, maybe. We were reading devotions one night, and we were reading about God telling the Israelites to go out and slaughter the Amalekites. Just go out and kill the Amalekites.
And my little daughter looked up and piped up and said, "Does Jesus know about this?" And what she was saying was something that a person, anyone who picked up the Bible for the first time, is going to wrestle with. Slaughtering the Amalekites is a lot different than loving your enemies.
So what do we do with these differences? We read things like Solomon had 100 women, wives, and concubines, but a bishop should only be the husband of one wife. Well, that's a pretty big difference. We see Solomon was wise, but what about this bishop over here?
So let's look a little at this thing of Proverbs and the teachings of Jesus. And I want to look specifically on being honest about the difference in focus and emphasis between these two. Let's start with Proverbs. Proverbs is a book that abounds in common sense.
It teaches how to get along with people, the importance of diligence, the blessing of a strong work ethic. It talks about the ant. Go to the ant and learn from the ant. That's where you're going to get wise.
In the Proverbs, preservation of wealth is encouraged. Here's a verse we look at about co-signing, but be not thou one of them that strike hands or of them that are surety for debt. But notice, if thou hast nothing to pay, why should he take thy bed from under thee? In other words, notice the message here. Don't endanger your own well-being, your own finances, to help someone else.
Why should you risk losing your bid in this whole process?
Book of Proverbs, material wealth is a blessing. Now, Proverbs does warn against being hasty to be rich, but in general, wealth is a reward for hard work and diligence. Notice this passage, Proverbs 19, wealth maketh many friends, but the poor is separated from his neighbor. In other words, it's better to be wealthy than it is to be poor.
Proverbs 3:9 says, "Honor the Lord with thy substance and the first fruits of all thine increase." Notice, so shall thy barns and thy presses burst out with new wine. It's a good thing. Wealth is a good thing. The Book of Proverbs, poverty is a sign of slothfulness. It's the opposite of wealth. It's the result of slothfulness.
Proverbs 6, you had a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of thy hands to sleep, so shall thy poverty come. It's common sense. If you don't work hard and manage properly, you're going to have poverty. Poverty is shown as the curse of slothfulness. Now, there's much more in Proverbs. I just have four points here, but look over this and think about the overall message of Proverbs. And here's what I have observed as I have got out into our communities. It's simply this: wealthy Christian businessmen love Proverbs.
It shows them to be wise men. They've made good choices. They've done good things. That's why they're wealthy. But before we stop there, let's go on to the teachings of Jesus a little bit. Teachings of Jesus are not known for common sense. Teachings of Jesus are very different. Many of his teachings totally lack what we would call common sense. Notice this passage, "Give to him that asketh of thee, and from him that would borrow of thee, turn not thou away." Is there any common sense in that sentence?
Have you ever seen that sentence in a how to run a successful business book? No. That's not common sense. Just give to whoever asks you.
In the teachings of Jesus, denial of self is encouraged. In fact, the widow who gave away her two mites was commended. That's just the opposite of the ant hill in Proverbs. The ant hill is store up here, and the widow is like, "Unload everything, even your last two mites."
Teachings of Jesus, material wealth is dangerous. If there's one theme you can take home from Jesus about wealth, it is riches are dangerous. But woe unto you that are rich, for you have received your consolation, Luke 6. Jesus even said, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into heaven."
And the teachings of Jesus is the poor that are blessed. Luke 6 again, and he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said, "Blessed be ye poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." So what do we do with the difference between Proverbs and the radical teachings of Jesus?
Now, I mentioned earlier that older, rich businessmen love to camp out in Proverbs. But something else I've noticed is that young, radical Christians, they love to beat up on the wealthy men with the teachings of Jesus. So how do we reconcile these two? How do we pull these two together?
Just a few observations. Proverbs are general truths and observations about our world. We need to be honest about what Proverbs are. Let's just look at Proverbs 18. "Whoso findeth a wife, findeth a good thing." Is that always true? Well, no, it's not always true. Every one of us can think of situations where a man has found a wife, and it was not a good thing. But in general, that's a general truth. We understand that truth. Or what about this one? "A soft answer turns away wrath," Proverbs 15:1. Is that always true? Does a soft answer always turn away wrath?
Was it true for Jesus? No, it's not always true. And yet, we know through life there's a truth there that a soft answer does turn away wrath. They're statements of general truth. Proverbs contains the formula for material success. If you're diligent, if you have a good work ethic, if you save money, if you're dependable, if your economy is halfway decent at all, you'll become wealthy. That's not just a Christian thing.
That works in Japan as well with unbelievers. It's like Proverbs is the operating manual written by the original manufacturer. This is how the material world works.
If you heed Proverbs, it's going to create natural provision. In other words, Proverbs contains the building blocks for creating provision for our families. And it works. That's where we take young men when they're struggling to pay the bills. There's good teachings there. What about the teachings of Jesus, though?
Teachings of Jesus reveal the folly of an earthbound foundational vision. It raises our sights higher than just this natural life. Notice this verse. We think of this as the rich fool, but God said unto him, "Thou fool, this night shall thy soul be required of thee. Then whose shall these things be, which thou hast provided?" Notice, "So is he that layeth up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God." In other words, if you are only building temporal wealth, you are a fool.
And Jesus provides in his teachings the why for business. Proverbs is the how, but Jesus is the why. And it's foolish to be working with the goal of just simply enlarging your business. In other words, you can live out Proverbs and be a fool.
Teachings of Jesus provide kingdom context for industry. They show why a believer is to be a good businessman. The teachings of Jesus show the purpose of business. And notice this verse, "Give alms, provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth nor moth corrupteth." In other words, Jesus does intend that we accumulate wealth, but he's very serious about where we store that wealth. He wants to make sure we're actually storing it in the correct place.
Teachings of Jesus, heeding, creates eternal accumulated wealth. If you follow his teachings, you will have eternal wealth. So again, just to reiterate, Proverbs tells how wealth can be created, how to run a business. Jesus's teachings supersede this and provide the why.
And to back up to where we started, I believe Jesus also puts us all on the same level, missionary and kingdom-focused businessman. There's a place for everyone here. And I know that in saying everything I just said, it's dangerous to start separating Scripture out. But I personally believe if we're going to do it with non-resistance, we need to also do it with our financial lives as well.
So kingdom-focused business, what are we talking about? And what might a kingdom-focused business actually look like?
I want to suggest that a kingdom-focused business needs to, at its core, have clear purpose and vision. In other words, there's going to be constant pressure from the outside world, let's say, from our secular society, to make profitability the ultimate goal.
And we'll come back to that in a little. But it's important to, I think, write a vision out and keep going back to it. One of the examples that I've shared before, I'll share it here, is an Amish business that I visited in the middle of—let me just say this—when I was writing "It's Not Your Business." I asked people in different areas to make a list of individuals who they felt like were kingdom businessmen. And I told them I did not care if they were big business, small business, or employees, but people who were using their occupations to demonstrate Jesus.
And so I went—as I went to these areas, I took my rental car, and I had a list of names and addresses, and I went out and started just interviewing people. When I arrived at an address, I had no idea. I didn't know if this was a big business, a little business, employee—I just didn't know.
And I walked into an Amish business, and I was fascinated. And let me just tell you a little of the story. This man was probably, I would say, in his 50s. He told me, he said, "My father started this business. It was a sawmill business." He said, "We already had a cabinet shop that was making enough money for all of us." They said, "My father walked in one day and said, 'You know what? In light of two things, in light of the needs for jobs in our community, and in light of global need, just poverty around the world, we can do more than what we're doing.
What if we would start a business for the sole purpose of funding the kingdom, of just blessing people out there?'" And so out of this came a vision statement. He keeps it in his drawer. And I was fascinated as he told me all this. His sons, I think they were, I forget, three or four, maybe five sons standing around the table here listening to all this. He said, "I bring my boys in every once in a while, and I read this to them to remind them of why we are in business." And I want to read it to you. Just think through the thought they have put into why they are in business.
Here's their mission statement. Number one, finance the work of God's kingdom and seek to aid in the alleviation of the suffering of the poor. Two, seek a unified, well-structured, family-oriented business environment. Business should serve all involved well and enhance Christian living. Three, prevent overworked and overstressed working conditions. Four, pay good wages to enhance the employees' financial well-being. Five, hire enough employees to prevent being overworked ourselves.
Six, provide enough office or management staff to stay ahead of costly computation errors and endeavor to be legal in everything for conscience's sake. Seven, keep profits under control to prevent tax overburdens and a luxurious lifestyle. Eight, work hours that won't hamper family life and/or community service, etc.
Nine, provide flexibility if someone needs to take time off. And ten, be a debt-free company. Now, this is actually a combined vision and mission statement. He doesn't show this to the public. It's just simply for his own family to help keep them on track. But there's a phrase at the bottom of his mission statement that I want you to notice.
It says this: "The price of being a disciple of Christ in today's business environment is eternal vigilance." In other words, he was acknowledging this path that we're on, boys, is not going to be easy. And I asked him, just as a side note here, I asked him as we were talking there, I said, "Can you give me an example of something you're doing in your business besides producing money, something that's actually a blessing to your community?" And the boys talked about it a little bit, and they said, "Well, yeah, actually, there's one thing we do that is kind of a pain in the neck, but the only reason we do it is because of the needs in our community."
He said, "We live here in an Amish community, and sawdust is hard to find. And our mill here produces about a semi-load of sawdust every week. And so we make that available." And he said, "It's just a problem." He said, "They come in, little dibs and dabs, and taking out little bits of sawdust. But it's a way we're trying to contribute to the welfare and well-being of our community."
The need for profitability. Kingdom-focused does not mean anti-profit. In fact, sustainability demands profitability. But it does mean that profit is not on the throne. And it means that when there's a choice to be made between profit and the kingdom of God, the kingdom wins.
And I would just reiterate this again. If you can't be kingdom-focused and produce a profit, then find another business. Mutual blessing in every transaction. This is huge to me. Jesus said this, Luke 6, "And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them likewise." This teaching should permeate a kingdom-focused business. It means that when you are buying something, you're wanting to get a good deal, but you're also wanting to make sure they are making a profit.
When you're selling something, you're wanting to also ensure the buyer is getting good value. Servant leadership. I would just describe this as understanding that I, as an owner, if you're an owner, am actually still God's employee. I serve the Lord Christ.
Honesty in marketing. Customers should be assured that you are completely honest in everything you're doing, even if it means you lose a sale. And I could give examples of this. We don't have time for that. But think about absolute honesty in how you portray your product or your service or whatever you're doing.
And the last one is creating curiosity about Christ. This is probably my favorite one. And I could give you some examples about this as well. But think about it in your own mind of this actually came from another man. I asked a businessman one time. I said, "Can you tell me what the goal of your business is? What are you trying to achieve besides providing for your family?" And he said this, "I want everyone who walks out the door of my business to leave curious about who Jesus is." In other words, something about the experience they had here in how they were treated, in the product that they received. And whatever it was, they leave with just a curiosity about who is this?
Who is Jesus? And I would just say, make that your goal, whether you are an owner or not, is create curiosity about who Christ is. Finally, I want to end up here on what I call business, the danger and the dream. And I want to start with the danger. Make no mistake, there is danger in business and wealth. And those of you who read your Bibles, you read the New Testament, you read the red letters, you know that's true. I mean, Jesus was on this topic constantly.
I'll just add this: at the conclusion of reading or of writing, "It's Not Your Business," the book went out to reviewers just to get impact. And one of those wrote a letter to me privately. And he said this. He said, "I agree with everything you said in the book.
In fact, it's needed in our communities. But here's my fear. My fear is all you're going to do is make our businessmen out there, our wealthy businessmen, feel better about what they're doing." And I wrestle with that as well. In fact, I'm relaying in bed, thinking about that. Am I actually helping things here by giving some validity to Christian business? I still believe in it, but I'm not interested in giving validity or sanctioning spiritual skin on a secular business.
Let me just describe a little bit of the danger. I just think of a few quotes. One of those was a man who has a very large business, over 100 employees. He described to me just the challenge it is, raising a family when his children know he has this kind of business. He has money. He described, he said, "My son comes to me sometimes and wants to buy a boat. And we have employees that have boats. And I don't want to do that. I don't want to get involved in some of that because of the picture it's giving. But it's a challenge. It's something I'm always wrestling with." There's a man that I worked with years ago who we worked together as employees for someone else.
And he described to me, I remember working with him, he would describe to me the dangers of wealth as we worked. But he became very wealthy. He started a business on his own. Today, he owns multiple homes in different locations. He takes expensive hunting trips. He doesn't see a problem with that. In other words, there's something that happened to him in that process. Wealth has a way of blinding us. And I just want to say this: don't underestimate the deceptive power of wealth.
The lust of other things. Jesus said this, "And these are they which are sown among thorns, such as, hear the word, notice, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lust of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful."
Business cares and wealth can be like a vine that just chokes out spiritual vitality. And those of us living in capitalistic, materialistic America, we are living in a country of other things. There are so many distractions, so many things you can have. And wealth makes all this available to you. It makes those distractions available.
The danger is a man's life business can become a man's life source and fulfillment. God wants to be our life source. And business can supplant that. It can fill our mind and become the source of fulfillment in our lives. It can become what we enjoy talking about. The profit and loss sheets, the balance sheet, all that can be what our mind goes to and what thrills us. There's many more dangers, but I have to move on here. Let's think about the dream. The burden of this talk is to acknowledge the danger and yet go ahead and dream.
God did put us in a world where we are; he created us to work, and we can't escape that. So why does God do this? What does he have in mind in this? I'll give you a few things. One is church planning potential.
Do you see the church today as stagnant or expanding, moving out of new areas and taking on new ground? And if that's going to happen, how will it occur? And I want to suggest that moving out of the new areas, business is a tremendous way, not only to finance it, but also to learn about new people, make new contacts in a new area. The Protestant model in the past has been individuals going out. But actually, I believe that church communities are the way God intends for his word to be spread.
I'm not opposed to individuals either, but I think that's his primary method is the church itself. Business is closely connected with church planting, and it's needed today. I want to look just a little at the Moravian model. The Moravian model had a tremendous focus on trades. You remember Count Zinzendorf, born in Germany in 1700, highly educated, but he started at Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, there in 1741. And the focus was on life skills that these men, women, could use when they got out into other parts of the world. He visualized working missionaries. He saw the trades as very important, and the buildings, some of them are still there in Bethlehem. But occupational trades was the vehicle to carry the gospel around the world.
In 1745, just four years after Bethlehem was founded, there were 35 trades being taught there. They didn't stick to just a few trades. They had incredible diversity in trades: pottery, carpentry, butchers, farmers, doctors, tailors, all kinds of things. They sent them out with purpose.
Each missionary went out with a skill. They were expected to be self-supporting. There wasn't going to be a monthly check coming to them. When they got there, they were to support themselves with their little businesses. But it also enabled them to assist others economically. They went to some very poor places. They were able to teach the local people important life skills. It wasn't just a trip they took. They weren't intending on returning. They went there, stayed there, and helped develop skills in those areas.
Provided opportunity for interaction. This is a whole nother talk, but commerce is a language everyone speaks. I work primarily many times in Islamic countries, and it's a language that they understand. We can talk about business. And it forces you to rub shoulders with others. And they see, as we do business, they're going to observe what you're made of, how you respond when deals don't go your way. They're going to see all of that. And when they see that lived out properly, they're going to be curious about who Jesus is.
And it causes us as missionaries to be viewed as contributors in other cultures. One of the condemnations of missionaries is they're not doing anything for the local economy. They're viewed sometimes as leeches. But the Moravians went around the world and actually blessed and taught others how to do trades in their area.
What if? I want to just think about this question a little bit.
Just imagine for a little bit that you were a Moravian being sent out to do business in Guatemala, wherever. When you went out and did business, how would you do that business? Would you be tight on business deals and try to get as much money as you can from people? Would you drive hard bargains when you're buying? What kind of service would you give? If you're going to be a missionary as a businessman, what kind of service would you provide? Remember why they went there. They went there to shed the gospel, to share with others.
And then the next question is, what if everyone in your local congregation used business as a mission? What might that look like? What would be the impact in your local community if everyone actually did that? What if our businesses were known for providing more than people expect? I remember as a young boy hearing about a farmer. And I remember my dad talking about him. He was a farmer who did sharecropping with others. And they said you had to watch him because when you weren't looking, he would put some of the crop over in your bin if you weren't careful.
In other words, he wanted to make sure he was concerned that you come out good in this deal as well. What if every business in our communities was like that? What if our businesses were known for ensuring that others win when buying?
I remember a story I heard about a widow whose husband had died. She put her tools out for sale, a state sale. And there was a tool there. She didn't know how much it was worth. She put $35 on it. And there was a man driving down the road and saw this sale. He walked over there, and here was a tool that he had been wanting to buy. It cost about $500 new, if I remember it correctly. And he would be willing for a used one to pay $300. Here was a $35 price tag on that tool.
Now, what would you do? He could have paid $35. She would have been happy with it. She didn't know. But here's what he did. He told her what the value of that tool was and paid her $300. Now, stories like that don't stay on that property very long.
Those are stories that create curiosity about who Jesus is. What if our businesses were known for valuing souls more than sales? What if stories just floated around that demonstrated this truth? What if our businesses were known for demonstrating Jesus in difficult situations? And you can think of lots of those. I put some of those stories in the book. It's not your business. But totally exceeding someone's expectations. Maybe you make a mistake. Maybe in some way you disappoint someone. But doing things to override that and make sure they are totally happy before your relationship ends. Profitability doesn't always enter in here. Sometimes you have to lose money to do this.
But providing service that's way beyond expectation. Now, wealth, I mentioned, is very deceptive. And I want to suggest that there is a need to hold businessmen accountable in some way. In other words, I would suggest that our churches need to both bless and hold the man who's very gifted with business, hold him accountable in some way. And the reason is this: just one bankruptcy or just one bad deal or just bad service can doom a church's outreach.
That goes all over a community. Everyone knows about that. So I think it's important, as we talk about business, to also, for just a little bit, talk about church life. What if our churches were known for greater financial transparency?
In other words, why do we wait until there's a crisis to talk about our business, to talk about opportunities, but also problems? If we want our churches to demonstrate Jesus, I believe our brotherhoods should be more interested in our businesses.
So just think about your own community. Are you free in your setting to talk about financial challenges or business situations with your brothers? Or is that off-limits in your community? We are able to discuss many other issues. And as important as this one is, I think it's good. Now, I'm not calling for open transparency of everything to everybody all the time. I don't think that's true. I think it's decent discernment. But think about how can we move our communities closer to financial transparency? What if our churches were known for a lack of interest in accumulated wealth? What if it was just known in your community that these people, they're just not really interested in accumulated wealth?
They're not really interested in more property. They don't chase the dollar like everyone else. They're not interested in get-rich-quick schemes. They're willing to let their property taken even joyfully. Their minds are on eternal things. What if that was coming out of our communities?
What if our churches were known for holding the businessmen accountable? Now, as Anabaptist people, we are able to hold people accountable in other areas. But what about the lifestyle of the businessman or how he conducts business? If it's so important, this demonstration that's going out, shouldn't we think about ways to both bless his ability and hold him accountable?
What if our churches were known for encouraging kingdom business models? There's a great need for employment of struggling seekers in new church plants. I've recently had several individuals who wanted to communicate about this. How can we actually take someone who's struggling, maybe with addictions, and bring them into a business? And there's some out there, some businesses doing a very good job of this. It has to be done very carefully. But what if we were talking about that, thinking about models like that? Or what about models that could bless the kingdom of God and young men, helping them and assisting them, not just getting them started in business, but also creating models where they can actually demonstrate the kingdom of God?
Now, as we think about all this, maybe some of this stretched you a little bit. I don't know. As far as transparency and depending on the community you happen to live in, it probably is a little stretching. But before you just pitch what I just said, I want to go back and look real briefly here in conclusion at the testimony and the transparency of the early church.
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul. Notice, neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had all things common. Notice, their eyes were not on their possessions. They weren't even calling it their own.
And it's a funny thing. We're kind of funny people. We don't mind saying that everything is God's. God's the owner of everything. He owns everything. But we don't mind saying that. We don't mind saying it's all God's money, but we're very concerned about whose pocket God's money is in.
We should stop and think about that. Evidently, the early church was interested enough in the vision for sharing and reaching out and blessing that who won in a business deal wasn't enough to separate people. But notice the result of this. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. I want you to imagine a church that's once again famous for this and the powerful impact it can have on our communities. And I want to encourage you to keep that vision alive in your heart. Keep encouraging it.
Visualize small groups of businessmen even getting together and sharing and caring. And this is happening. In fact, it's happening more all the time, and I appreciate it. But as I started out with, business has a bad reputation. I would just say in our world, we talk about business as being a dog-eat-dog thing, everybody, every man for himself. But I want you to think about that bad reputation as a dark backdrop to paint the gospel of Jesus Christ in front of. I think we have an opportunity to demonstrate something very different than that.
In conclusion, in summary, I would just say this: that I believe that businessmen, Christian businessmen, hold a prominent place in our communities. And how you conduct your business, how you interact in the workplace, to a large extent is going to impact how people perceive Jesus Christ.
So be intentional about why you're in business and see business as an opportunity. One thing I didn't deal with at all is debt, but I would just say that the less debt you carry, the easier it is to stay focused on the kingdom of God. Not saying that debt is wrong, but being out of debt, it sure helps to apply less pressure when you're making some decisions and you don't want profitability to be king.
Remember, your role is to show the world what the whole world could look like, what the business world could look like if actually Jesus was king.
I heard a story one time about a man who it was just a fable, I'm sure, but a man who had severe eye pain. He went to a lot of physicians, and he couldn't get any relief from it. And there was a man called in, and finally, he told him this. He said, "You know what? It looks like from just observing you that the only color you can really look at is green.
If you're looking at green, it's okay, but any other color is what causes your headaches and your severe eye pain." And so this wealthy man went home, and he had his servants paint everything green. They just painted all the walls green and everything around his house green, which really helped him out. But he went back and talked to his doctor later, and his doctor said, "That's okay. That's one way to deal with it." But it would have been a lot simpler if he would have simply purchased a pair of green glasses.
And I think about that sometimes with business, how we see our world is important. I think what I'm calling for today is to put on kingdom glasses as we look at the business world and see it from God's perspective of the way that God can use it.
We all use business in different ways. We see it from different perspectives. But I want to just encourage you to look at occupations differently and hopefully from a kingdom perspective.
That's all I have for you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much, Gary. There on that, what if our businesses were known for, and you have on there valuing souls more than sales, that convicted me. I was really inspired by those last couple of slides. What if our businesses were known for providing more than people expect, ensuring others win when buying, valuing souls more than sales, demonstrating Jesus in difficult situations? And finally, of course, Gary, true to form, you had to challenge your local churches as well, greater financial transparency, known for lack of interest in accumulated wealth. And I think we've all been through communities where you maybe have been a huge focus, very materialistic, and oftentimes their testimonies in the community are not good.
It's too bad. Very unfortunate. Holding businesses accountable and encouraging kingdom business models. So you left us with quite a lot of work to do. And so thank you for those challenges. And one of the things that really stood out to me in this book, you talk about Proverbs and Jesus and how do these two things go together. And you talk about this in your talk here, but in your book here, you say some of the same things. You have Proverbs is, I thought I had it noted here, Proverbs provides the how, and Jesus is the why.
And the why is know your why, know why you exist, what is that deep, deep longing of your heart. And that then helps you then know how to steward the what, what you are doing. And so that has been an inspiration to me and something I've thought about many, many times. It can be a guide to us for sure as we navigate business life. So again, thank you. I'll be opening up shortly here for some questions.
But we did have a question come in. We're going to jump right into that. And maybe just for about 10, 15 minutes here, we'll take some questions, and then we'll wrap this call up. So a gentleman says this. He says, "As a Christian business owner, at what point should I refuse to do work for a Christian brother or anyone else if what he is requesting is excessive and beyond practicality, especially if he is willing to spend a lot of money on something that I personally and conscientiously would not? Or should I have the mindset that as long as the customer pays the bill, I'll do whatever he wants?"
So we're kicking off with a really, really hard question here for you, Gary. What are your thoughts on that one? Just to clarify, was he saying he's working for a Christian? No. He said, "As a Christian business owner, at what point do I refuse work, whether for a Christian brother or anyone else, that's excessive and just beyond practicality?"
Well, that's a difficult one. Yes. Because if you take that too far, you can go to where you can't sell anything in a hardware store until you know what the end use of it is. Or you can't raise corn because some of it might end up in the distillery. And so you can get yourself in a bind with this question.
Sure. I would personally, and you've already said enough to where I'm probably going to get tagged for this, but I think that's where brotherhoods can come in. I like to think of a group of brothers that I could come to and say, "Here's my dilemma. I'm not sure what to do. What do you think?" I would throw this out as well. I had an experience one time with a gentleman who called me, and he knew I did commercial construction. And he said, "I have a building I'd like for you to build. Would you be interested?" And I said, "What kind of building is it?" And he said, "It's a retail store."
And I must have had some knowledge that on this corner, there was going to be a liquor store going in. I don't remember now. But for some reason, I asked him more. I said, "Well, what kind of retail?" "Oh, just lots of things." He kind of hemmed and hawed, just different things. And I said, "Well, is it going to be liquor?" And, "Well," he said, "there might be some of that sold. It might be." And so I told him I'd get back with him. And I did. I had a partner at the time, and we talked about it. And I got back with him, and I said, "You know, one of the things that I want to do in my business is be a blessing to our community.
And I just don't feel very good about actually being involved in putting a liquor store there." And his comment smoked me. He said, "Well, I didn't think you would, but I thought I'd check." And maybe it left me with, "Okay, so there's an expectation out here that I could have violated that expectation pretty easily." So I don't know if that helps or not, but I do think that brotherhoods can help in those settings of a place where you can come and talk.
And if you don't have that, maybe a group of other businessmen that you trust that they're actually wanting a kingdom-focused business. Sure. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, I'll open it up here. Any thoughts or questions from the group that's here?
Thank you for joining us this afternoon. Dwayne, you're raising your hand there. Go ahead. You can speak right up. Gary, thank you for sharing. And as always, I come away really, yeah, probably smoked as well and a lot to think about. What you've been speaking on has been a burden of mine for many, many years. And I've spoken on it for many years. I guess, and I haven't been able to articulate it as well as you do. I will just add that. But I don't think that is the only reason for the frustration that I feel of not having made a great impact in this area.
And I just wonder, is there something that we're not doing that we need to do to change the direction, change the focus that I feel so many of our Anabaptist churches have kind of missed the Christ teaching? One of the things that I, in terms of business transactions that follow the rule, the golden rule, an old, a long time ago, an evangelist said, I can't remember for sure which one it was, one of the famous Protestant evangelists said that a business transaction should leave, you should be able to go away from a business transaction, both the seller and the buyer being very pleased with what has happened. And that has always been impressive to me.
And I think that is taking the golden rule into consideration. I don't know if you have any comments on that or question that I'm, or the frustration that I've been experiencing.
I'll just say this. I share your burden and your concern. So the first book that I wrote on finances was 15 years ago now, probably, Kingdom Focus Finances. Right after I wrote that book, I would say for the next three, four years, I was inundated with phone calls of people struggling, lots of issues. Just, "What do I do in this situation? How do I pay the bills, basically?"
Today, it's extremely rare for me to get a question like that. Today, what I get is church leaders calling and saying, "We have a problem. We have so much money. There's so much wealth in our community, but I don't know what to do."
And I personally believe that we are underestimating vastly the deceptive nature of wealth and the setting that we're in. We are living in a thorn patch, and thorns are getting up around us. And I don't say that about anybody else. That's myself as well.
There's several reasons for that. There's several forces, I think, that are very powerful right now. One is wealth. One is an individualistic personality or society where what I think myself is very important, my opinion is very important, and the other is technology.
And those three forces, to me, are driving us and pushing us in ways that we struggle to understand what's happening here. But I think it's very powerful. I think we are being influenced.
If you would ask a group of businessmen today, "What is the greatest fear you have?" I wonder how many of them would say that things are going to get better. But that's actually a fear that I carry, is that our economy is actually going to keep improving and improving because it's devastating. And I can give you examples of this. It's devastating churches.
I think of some Amish communities right now that I've worked with some where the income is so high for young men that they don't know what to do with the money. They're just buying toys and all this stuff. There's been no thought given to how to live in this kind of environment.
Anyway, I'm just saying I agree with your burden. I think we need to be actually praying about that, talking about it, because it is very much of a concern.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that question, Dwayne, and for that response that is sobering. That is kind of like a frog in the kettle, right? We're just so we just have so much wealth around us. And I think of the words of Jesus, "To whom much is given, much is required." So we're five talent people in many, many ways.
Okay. Any other questions for Gary?
Yeah. I would have a question. This is John. I appreciate what you shared on having a business with a spiritual skin. And so I'm still in exploring mode, if God would lead towards a Christian café in our town here.
And as I've been talking with people, with things, land-use places and stuff, I was just curious, how much should you tell people that you hope to be in Christian mission? Should you clearly share what your vision, passion would be? Or how much should you just be honest about some of those things or transparent? Are you going to say, "We would like to have services and meetings and things in this setting as well that may affect whether you're allowed to come in and work there?" Or do you come in just expecting your witness to be seen after you're there? Yeah.
I've been kind of vacillating there. How do you do that? Do you tell everyone, "This is my vision," or do you let it be shown maybe rather than stated?
Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not the right one to be answering this question. There's others on here that have businesses, coffee shops. I've never owned a coffee shop. I've always thought I would enjoy it, but I'm probably not going to actually accomplish that one.
I guess I'm supposed to give an opinion, but I'd be glad if others would. I think my own opinion of this is, first, you have substance and then connect that to truth. If you make too big of a deal out of who we are, what I am, what we're trying to do, I get a little squeamish about that.
It's on my mind. I'll give you an example. I was in the courtroom yesterday. There's an individual who's in jail here in our local community that I've tried to reach out to and work with a little bit. And his sentencing was yesterday, and he got up and had a chance to talk. And he's been involved in some pretty sinful things. And his first response was how the Holy Spirit had told him this, and he was supposed to he'd read his Bible a lot and all this. And I sat there thinking, "You know what? The best thing for you to say right now is, 'I repent. I'm sorry.' This isn't time to be dragging theology in."
And I think in my own mind, that's what I appreciate in a kingdom-focused business. I'll take a coffee shop, for example. I appreciate when there is good service, when there is a good atmosphere, when there's something there, but also connected visibly in some way to Jesus. In other words, maybe some books laying there or a little something on the door, whatever.
There has to be a connection there so you're not just saying, "You guys are doing a good job." But I would say make the substance real and then make the connection. Don't try to say everything.
I'm squeamish because it's like seeing a guy with a bumper sticker that says, "I love Jesus. We've been out of traffic and going too fast." It destroys everything. Take the bumper sticker off. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I would probably start with substance and not overdo the proclamation. But maybe others of you have a better way to answer that one.
Joe, I see you took your mute off. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, really appreciate the talk, Gary. Thanks for sharing. And excellent question, John. We started a coffee shop in the very liberal town of Amherst, and we wrestled with this question because we wanted to be yeah, we wanted to be a Christian coffee shop, right? And yet we didn't want to we didn't want to be too in-your-face Christian. And so when Gary's talking about a secular business with a spiritual skin, I really found myself evaluating my heart because of these very issues of how easy it is to say these things, but then to use the term that Gary used is to lack the substance. And so we said, "So what should we call this coffee shop?"
And we settled on the word coronation. Now, I thought I must have felt like that's not too in your face, but at the same time, the coronation is the crowning of a king. And pretty much everybody knows that it's associated with Christianity in some way. We get a lot of people asking, "Hey, tell me about your name." And so, yeah, we wrestled with that some too. But I think there's a lot of wisdom in focusing on the substance because talk is cheap. And so many times, our actions are going to speak louder than words. But at the same time, let's not be ashamed to open our mouths at the right time and to send the messaging and give the glory to God, give the glory to where it belongs.
But yeah.
Yeah. Thank you, Joe. That's good.
I think there's an interest in the relational component here. That's really important.
Okay. Any last-minute questions?
Well, I did have a question that I was thinking about. And I know it's very nuanced, and so it might not be possible to give a really fleshed-out answer. But when we think about the work that we do as people, as followers of Jesus, the work that we do, there's got to be some work that's okay to engage in and some work that's not okay to engage in. And you can take an example like a bartender or an abortion doctor, and we'll say, "Well, it's black and white." And then you can look over on the other side and maybe being a barista in a coffee shop or being somebody that sweeps the floor at the church or something like that and say, "Well, that's clearly good."
But what about Gary, can you give us a couple of principles that can guide us in our decisions? It seems like we've not sought first the kingdom of God many times. We've actually sought the things that he said he would add if we sought the kingdom of God first. It's the other things that we've sought first. And when profit is the primary driver, we begin to justify all kinds of work, many different kinds of work. So my question is, do you have maybe some simple principles that could guide us? And I think of Lloyd Martin Jones. Maybe I'm not saying his name quite right, or Martin Lloyd Jones, who was a medical doctor, and he considered what he was doing for work.
And when he wrestled with this question, he arrived at the conclusion that he should no longer be a medical doctor, but he should become a minister. And that was because he felt like as a medical doctor, which most of us on this call would probably say, "What a great profession to be involved in as a medical doctor. Aren't you helping people?" Well, this man said, "I'm just helping people go back to their sin."
And he said he chose instead to become a minister. And so, yeah, maybe a couple of principles to help guide us in our decisions about vocation.
Well, it is a good question. A little bit similar to one of the first ones, I think, about what should we do or when should we not. But the verse that comes to mind is Ephesians 4:28 that I think about when I think about this question. And it simply says this in King James, "Let him that stole steal no more, but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good that he may have to give to him that needeth." And there's several principles in that verse, being honest, not stealing, but it's also working with your hands the thing that is good. And I think that principle is, is what I am doing actually a blessing in our community?
Is it helping my community flourish? So if you're looking at profitability, installing satellite TV dishes might be the most profitable thing, but is that actually a blessing in our community or whatever the thing is? And so that's a reference point for me is, is my product, is my service a blessing? Is it actually contributing to human flourishing?
I don't know if that helps or not, but that's one way that I try to think about it. In fact, we teach that in the SALT program in other countries as well. Some things are very, very profitable, but are they actually helping? That doesn't always help me. I worked for years in the thing of high-end homes.
Well, where's the line there? I mean, how high? There's one house I spent three and a half years trimming it out. I mean, it was just a tremendous display, really. Was I actually helping human flourishing? I'd wrestle with that sometimes. I would come home from work and tell my wife, "I'm struggling and troubled by affluence, and my job is encouraging it.
Now, what do I do?" So I don't know if there's—I would probably, again, in this question, point back to brotherhood again of coming together with others and asking them, "What do you think about this?" But it's a very real issue that we need to deal with. Profitability is not the primary thing here. It's, am I actually blessing others and being a blessing to them?
Yeah. Well, good questions, good thoughts here. Unfortunately, we need to wrap this up. And so it's been a real blessing to be together here. I want to say thank you to all the ones who joined here, also to the Strength to Strength listeners and the Strength to Strength for letting us host this on their platform. So thank you for coming. And Brother Gary, thanks for sharing.
So again, this book right here, It's Not Your Business, is 10% off till the end of January, I believe, over on Strength to Strength. And there's one sentence here in the wrap-up of the book I want to just read. And Gary says this quote, "Today, we need more transformed men who have been called by God to serve him in the marketplace, men who use commerce as a platform to display the glory and superiority of the kingdom of God." And so God bless you as you serve him in your community right where you are. So again, thanks for joining us here for this extended roundtable. And by the way, we do these once a quarter, typically the second Thursday, the first month of the quarter, I think, is our cadence here.
So again, thanks for joining. Have a great day. God bless you. Goodbye.