Discussion Jumpstarter
Study leader reference - not a definitive answer
Question 6
The speaker calls Augustine’s framework “a horrible doctrine about where it puts God,” especially the idea that God predetermines even heinous sins and then punishes people; what specific attributes of God (justice, goodness, holiness, sovereignty) are at stake in this dispute, and what would you need to be true for Augustine’s view not to make God morally monstrous?
Another way to ask: If God predetermines even terrible sins and then punishes people, what does that do to our view of God’s justice, goodness, holiness, and control? What would have to be true for Augustine’s view to not make God seem morally wrong?
Discussion Jumpstarter
Direct Answer
The transcript puts God’s justice and goodness most directly at stake: if God predetermines sins and still punishes, God would appear more unjust than human courts. For Augustine’s view not to make God morally monstrous (in the speaker’s framing), you would need a way to deny that predetermination makes God the author of evil or to show punishment remains just—yet the speaker presents that as impossible and “blasphemy.”
- He calls it “a horrible doctrine about where it puts God” and says it “makes God worse than…any human who’s ever lived.”
- He describes Augustine’s determinism: “everything is predetermined by God…Even your sins were predetermined by God.”
- He uses extreme examples: Hitler, Mao, Stalin—God supposedly decided these horrors.
- He emphasizes the moral problem: God “made the rules” so people “can’t do anything about it” and “can’t even believe in Christ” unless chosen.
- He argues human law would reject inherited guilt: “if your dad robs a bank…you’re just as guilty…human law has more justice than that.”
- In the Q&A, he reports a Calvinist saying “God predestined…a murder,” and the response: “to punish them after they do it,” highlighting the justice issue.